How these class debates should be stated. [Archive]

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Purcupile

03-09-2006, 10:20 PM

<div>I know that many of you who have been playing this game for a lot longer than I have will think "this noobie doesn't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]".And you are correct in that assessment. That is, however, the reason for this post...I want to learn more. I hope I speak for a lot of Mystics as well as Defilers (I will post this message on that forum also) who are new to this game or just aren't as knowledgeable and aware of many of the things discussed in these forums. I believe the better we understand the finer points of our class as well as other classes the more we will be able to contibute to our groups and or guilds. And quite frankly sometimes my head just spins as I sit here and think ..."what the hell are they talking about?"Most everyone takes shortcuts when posting...it is an abreviation or slang or an implication in references to a spell or event that not everyone knows what is being referred to. If your purpose of writing on these forums is to "communicate" then try to refrain from using those forms, be specific. Especially when one class is referring to a spell or attribute that the other class has, you should keep in mind that those reading your post may be thinking of a totally different spell or line of spells. There are class members at lower levels who have no idea what many specific spells are, what they do, or even that they exist. So if you take a little time by being more specific you will make your point better understood by nearly everyone who reads it (I may still be in the dark, but that's because I might be a numbskull).Let me give you an example of a recent post. The post was by a Defiler who was writing on the end of a long line of posts that contained a lot of flaming statements...by both classes. I think this post by Duntzzz and the follow up post by another defiler...Broomhilde were cordial, friendly and quite frankly a breath of fresh air in the atmosphere of the previous flaming and especially so as they were crossing into the Mystic board. Comments like theirs add to our board, and in my opinion are always welcome. (An aside to Duntzzz) please don't think I am flaming your post...I am using it because it helps demonstrate the point I am trying to make. Your intention was...and I am sure was done successfully to many of the community...to offer a fair and balanced approach to the discussion...and that effort is appreciated.My comments are in red.<hr>Duntzzz said:With reguards to balance.. I agree there are some things that are definatley out of whack.. but we all have our strengths and weaknesses..Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance..specifically which spells do this or is it a particular spell line (lower Mystics and Defilers may be 20-30 levels below and are using spells with different names) and which stat caps are you referring to? - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations. ...Any ones in particular? - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid. ..Good this was specific. I (as many lower level Mystics and Defliers) don't have any raid experience...so this knowledge while may not be helpful today ...will be tomorrow. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal... How? - Single target "Cure all" spell...Which ones? - More actual HP Heal spells (if you include your pet)...how many more? How many if you don't include your pet? Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless...which buff? - Less single target slows...at all levels? How many fewer? - No Cannibalize ability...is this a Defiler spell? What does it do? - Low relative DPS...Yeah I understand that completely...I think I lead my guild in deaths. If I have to start hitting the mob our group is in trouble....Big Trouble.Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..What? How? With what? - More Single target Debuffs...at all levels? How many more. What are they called? (not all an example). - Cannibalize ability...answered my own question. - Stun cure (when it works)...what is it? Is it broken? - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows...Good, I would have asked: such as? - More Wards (if you include our pet)...same question as above: How many more? What if you don't include pet?Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it...What are they called? - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group...what is it called? - No avoidance buffs...Such as the________ that Mystics? have. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)...is that what it is called...Nox? What ones do the Mystics have that you are referring to?In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff (What is it called?) to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells. (Any ones in particular or just all?)As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up. (I understood this completely...so you have a spell that buffs the MT like Bolster, or is it different?)Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..(Good, now i understand Defile)Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do. (they are in our ranks as well)<hr>By knowing more about Defilers and how their spells work, and what their strengths and weaknesses are and visaversa we become better group companions and guild raiders. I pretty much have the attitude that I want to focus on being the best Mystic (I have no alts) that I can be. Knowing how different spells work with all classes helps me be a better group member when grouped with them, so I appreciate the sharing of your thoughts about the different classes and their spells. I don't really think about someone having more than me...a player who is buffed and has the best spells and attributes doesn't help anyone if he doesn't know how to play his class to the best of his ability. ThanksPurcupile Eaglespirit66 Mystic of ValorKithicor</div>

Purcupile

03-09-2006, 10:45 PM

<div><div>Wow. While I was writing the above message Banditman and Duntzzz were creating a perfect example of what I was talking about using the same message I was referring to.</div><div> </div><div>Duntzzz original comments are in white, Banditman's in Red followed by Duntzzz responses in blue.</div><div> </div><div>Now this is communication and responses due to being specific...they make sense!</div><div> </div><div>But still remember those readers who are at levels where this wouldn't make sense wiithout the specifics.</div><div> </div><div>Banditman wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations.I'll try to keep this brief, but let me assure you that AE Slows are NOT anywhere NEAR as effective as our Haze line. The main strength of the Haze line is that it debuffs not only speed, but skill as well. The AE versions do not debuff skill, only speed. Further, and I hope Defilers understand this, Slows only affect the auto attack swing speed of a mob. It doesn't affect the cast or recast times of CA's / Spells. In general, a 25% Slow with no skill debuff only drops the overall DPS of a mob by about 8%.I realize that Slow's are not as near as effective as a skill debuff, but when you're fighting the trash mobs.. yes.. it definately helps cut down on the healing requirements (PPTR anyone?). So I still think that this is a Pro for Mystics, and I really don't think that any Mystic would give this ability up. =D - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid.Leave off "spells like" and you'll have a winner. Torpor is the only additional cross raid cast we can make insofar as healing goes. Avatar, Foretelling and all the rest of our buffs and spells are NOT cross raid castable.OK.. even without the "spells like" it is still one more thing that you can do cross raid that we cannot. I'd love to have an "Extra" ward that I could throw on the MT when I'm not in their group. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted healBzzt. Sorry, we have some nice parting gifts for you. The total overheal protection is like 250 HP at the most. So, if we heal a tank who is 500 HP down with a 1400 HP heal we still burn 650 HP for nothing. Further, the overheal protection doesn't stack. So, once you have that boost in place, subsequent spells will overheal. Finally, EVERYONE gets to use this once we put it in place. Once that little boost is there, everyone can use it.Sorry, I misunderstood how large (small) that HP buff was, and that they did not stack.. I'll keep that info handy.. thank you for clarifying..Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless.So, basically, in nearly every endgame raiding situation. Gotcha.Not necessarily.. especially if your raid is short on chanters, and you need a 2nd tank for the adds.. this will help make that 2nd tank the best they can be if they are lacking the gear of your typical MT. I would however like to see your Stat buffs ignore the cap.. this would solve a lot of the issues Mystics are currently having between our buffs and yours.. - Less single target slowsWe have enough, we don't need any more.Sorry, I should have stated Debuffs, not slows.. we can all slow to the cap quite easily. - No Cannibalize abilityOf our own. We can still use a Manastone but that's not exactly the same. - Low relative DPS.Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..A clear advantage in any endgame situation.Again, see the info above.. if you're MT is not near the cap.. (and not every raid MT is near the cap, as we can't all get the gear) I would take the HP / Power / AGI over just straight HP / Power (and a lot less power at that) - More Single target Debuffs.Good. That's how it should be. - Cannibalize abilityWe're a little jealous, since it really seems Canabalize should be a Shaman ability, not an ability specific to one sub-class. We'll probably get over it. - Stun cure (when it works)I would bug the snot out of a Dev until it did work properly.The "Devs" have already stated that this spell is working as intended.. we can only cure stuns etc that are cureable by a regular single target cure.. the only difference is we can cast this while stunned/stifled/mezzed/fear'd etc... there are a ton of these effects, usually epic encounters, that this does absolutely jack for, because the Dev's have decided to make that stun un-cureable and that's when we need it the most.. Sanctuary on the other hand will prevent these stuns from happening in most situations. we are still working on this one =D - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.I'm not sure this is a good thing or a bad thing. Probably neither, it's just the way Defilers work.They're not great (the wards anyhow) but they help on the really long fights as they are extremely power efficient, and tend to fire off enough to warrant the casting time. - More Wards (if you include our pet)*shrug*Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it.Welcome to life outside the MT group - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT groupDoesn't matter. The mob had bloody well better be at the Slow cap anyway. I'm not sure I'd call the Tendrils line your biggest debuff when you're sitting on something like the Abhorence line. Abhorrence line is nice.. Master is 32% to all stats.. Tendrils thought IS our largest Slow / DPS reducer, and is a buff that goes on the MT which procs when they are hit.. I believe the master is ~25% slow / ~30% DPS reduction, and it procs like crazy. (numbers may be slightly off, as I'm not looking at the actual spell) This is only useable when in the MT group, and costs us no power. - No avoidance buffs.All we have is the Avatar line, which adds less than 1% avoidance in the post LU13 world - and only to one player in our group. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)You aren't missing much. <img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" border="0">In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.I think you need to realize that you don't NEED to cast all your spells. You're probably wasting power unless you are doing it for secondary effects. The Slow and DPS debuff caps are incredibly easy to reach with both a Mystic and Defiler in the raid.Every single Hostile spell we have has some sort of Debuff attached to it. I don't cast these for the damage, but to either slow down the mob, or increase damage of my raids DPS classes.. on a single target mob it makes a HUGE difference in how well the fight goes..Fuluginous - DoT + %DPS reductionBane Line - Proc WardAphotic - AE DoT + Nox resist Debuff (for your fellow warlocks / assassins / necros)Imprecation - DD + Nox Resist DebuffPutrify - DoT + Wiz DebuffAs for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.We try really hard to ignore unpleasant elements in any community, including our own. Sometimes they get the best of us.<hr></blockquote></div></div></div>

sostrows

03-10-2006, 10:30 PM

/salutes red-white-blue post<div></div>

Gimmiso

03-12-2006, 11:32 AM

no no no you have it all wrong, the only way to get things fixed is to kick scream and cry until the devs give in.havent we learned anything...<div></div>