Trying to understand defiler v. warden/fury

[Gnimi]

<div></div><div>Looking to dual box and trying to understand a defiler versus a warden or fury.  Played a fury before (not dual boxed), but I am still trying to figure out <u>how</u> a defiler works generally and particularly in a dual box setup.  Partner would likely be a bruiser, but might also be a wizzy at times.</div><div> </div><div>1  What's the sequence of a fight with a defiler?  Ward tank, pull, then what???  Spam re-wards, reward and heal, just heal, etc.?  I'm trying to envision how I would have to play the bot to be effective.</div><div> </div><div>2  Can we primary heal (and not just ward) a group?  In other words, how are our direct heals?  Huge recast timers?  Too much health used to be safe?  I assume I'm going to have to just heal directly at times and am wondering how these work as a defiler.</div><div> </div><div>3.  How attentive do you have to be with a defiler to be effective dual-boxing?  I'm looking to basically play my main without having to be <em>constantly</em> mashing keys on the buffbot if I don't want to be that attentive.  Can you do this with a defiler or do the nature of the wards and debuffs in terms of duration and recast mean you need to be right on top of the second box?  How hard is this with a defiler?</div><div> </div><div>4.  Any particularly compelling reason to play (or <u>not</u> play) a warden/fury over a defiler with a bruiser or caster?</div><div> </div><div>Thanks much.</div><div> </div><div>Mixx</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Gnimish on <span class="date_text">02-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gnimish wrote:<div></div><div>Looking to dual box and trying to understand a defiler versus a warden or fury.  Played a fury before (not dual boxed), but I am still trying to figure out <u>how</u> a defiler works generally and particularly in a dual box setup.  Partner would likely be a bruiser, but might also be a wizzy at times.</div><div> </div><div>1  What's the sequence of a fight with a defiler?  Ward tank, pull, then what???  Spam re-wards, reward and heal, just heal, etc.?  I'm trying to envision how I would have to play the bot to be effective.</div><div> </div><div>2  Can we primary heal (and not just ward) a group?  In other words, how are our direct heals?  Huge recast timers?  Too much health used to be safe?  I assume I'm going to have to just heal directly at times and am wondering how these work as a defiler.</div><div> </div><div>3.  How attentive do you have to be with a defiler to be effective dual-boxing?  I'm looking to basically play my main without having to be <em>constantly</em> mashing keys on the buffbot if I don't want to be that attentive.  Can you do this with a defiler or do the nature of the wards and debuffs in terms of duration and recast mean you need to be right on top of the second box?  How hard is this with a defiler?</div><div> </div><div>4.  Any particularly compelling reason to play (or <u>not</u> play) a warden/fury over a defiler with a bruiser or caster?</div><div> </div><div>Thanks much.</div><div> </div><div>Mixx</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><div>1. ward, ward, ward, ward</div><div> </div><div>2. yeah our heals are pretty good, but wards > heals.</div><div> </div><div>3. Grp ward + spiritual circle = 2 button AFK healing.</div><div> </div><div>4. No reason at all, all healers are equal in a grp setting anyway.</div>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<div></div><p>Having a 60 Warden and a 49 Defiler, I can say that they are both potent and effective healers. They accomplish this effectiveness through dramaticly different means. Since you stated that you would likely be 2-boxing a bruiser, I think the clear answer would be a Defiler > either druid class. With an avoidance tank, wards rule the school. If we were talking about a plate tank class, I'd say the druids would likely be the better choice.</p><p>Avoidance tanks get hit less often but harder than a plate tank. The wards will take care of those less frequent, but potent hits. In addition, if a big hit punches through the ward, the enormous stack heals of the defiler will suite an avoidance tank well. The HP buffs will often serve the Bruiser well.</p>

[Rhe]

Actually before the changes done to wards what you said about avoidance was true.  However, the tanks mitigation directly effects a wards effectivity.  I've done about 4 levels doing cyclopses in Pillar of Flames with brawler classes and plate classes.  Plate classes always took the longest for the wards to break if ever.  Brawler classes on the other hand did have wards break and they did take damage.  Mitigation is the main factor now determing a wards effectiveness and the HP's underlying that tank is just as important for getting them healed if the ward breaks in the first place.<div></div>

[Gnimi]

<blockquote><hr>Rhent wrote:Actually before the changes done to wards what you said about avoidance was true.  However, the tanks mitigation directly effects a wards effectivity.  I've done about 4 levels doing cyclopses in Pillar of Flames with brawler classes and plate classes.  Plate classes always took the longest for the wards to break if ever.  Brawler classes on the other hand did have wards break and they did take damage.  Mitigation is the main factor now determing a wards effectiveness and the HP's underlying that tank is just as important for getting them healed if the ward breaks in the first place.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>So are you saying that a defiler isn't a great choice for healing a bruiser since the changes or that a warden/fury would be better?  Should I be looking at other healers here like inquisitor or something?  Trying not to [Removed for Content] myself here before I start... lol </div><div> </div><div>Thanks in advance.</div>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gnimish wrote:<div>So are you saying that a defiler isn't a great choice for healing a bruiser since the changes or that a warden/fury would be better?  Should I be looking at other healers here like inquisitor or something?  Trying not to [Removed for Content] myself here before I start... lol </div><div> </div><div>Thanks in advance.</div><hr></blockquote><div>Why dont you pick a healer base on your playstyle<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> you said you dont want to spam heals, then you should go with a defiler. BUT like ive said, any healer with proper gear and spells can perform in a grp. A defiler can be just as good for 2box as a templar, mystic, warden, fury... and viceversa.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.kilaelya.com/images/sigs/emanjialt.jpg"></div>

[Rhe]

I'm saying Bruisers/Monks can't tank as well as a tank in plate in armor, they never have been able to and never will be able to.  They have slightly higher dps and avoid more attacks to make up for their inability to take as many hits.  They also have considerably less taunt options available to themselves.<div></div>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhent wrote:I'm saying Bruisers/Monks can't tank as well as a tank in plate in armor, they never have been able to and never will be able to.  They have slightly higher dps and avoid more attacks to make up for their inability to take as many hits.  They also have considerably less taunt options available to themselves.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>lol i lvl with a bruiser from 30 to 60 on my alt necro and he tank just fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.kilaelya.com/images/sigs/emanjialt.jpg"></div>

[Rhe]

<div></div>And then put him against an equivically geared armored tank and run in Cyclopses and see who is going to use more mana and heals and have the biggest time with argo.  To go further, take that bruiser and then use him as a tank for X4's and compare him to a guardian/zerker for argo and ability to eat mana.  Again, you are going to take an armored tank.Brawlers get additional dps and some unique ability to make up for less taunt options and ability to take hits.  If you want I can post the exact taunt options they have compared to other tanks, and you'll be like: Oh, he's right brawler class do have less taunt options available to them.They can tank good enough for xp, however if you are the single healer in group, and thats how I operate for faster kills and better xp, I go with plate over avoidance because Wards take into account mitigation.  Everything I've seen for the mana bar at the end of fights and stress level goes down when using most of the plate classes, even a SK can handle argo than Monks I run with, and the monks are not sloppy, they are good at their class w/ what SoE has given them.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rhent on <span class="date_text">02-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:09 PM</span></p>

[Aaliel Stonefists]

<div></div><p>This is coming from a 58 bruiser who also two boxes a 55 defiler, and who has been two boxing in every game since DAoC.</p><p> </p><p>In my opinion you should go with the defiler hands down as the solo healer for any kind of experience group, period.  Now that my defiler has forced cannibalize, combined with the manastone and my other power regen items (though those are not required), the amount of time I can sustain a fight is just simply incredible.  My defiler does not drop below 90% power in a normal experience setting, or for all but a few heroic/epicx2 named.</p><p>For the most part I either level/farm with my bruiser/defiler and my brother's 55 necromancer, or just my two characters and kill up to orange heroics for the most efficient experience.  On occassion at lower levels I also formed full groups to kill the x2 epics in the Clefts of Rujark, so we could burn through them quicker.  The 3 of us just shred anything that is yellow or lower to my brother, my defiler is always full power.   It is simply impossible for me to even drop below 80% on the defiler killing any chain of yellow heroic mobs, most of the time my bruiser is in offensive or balanced stance for maximum damage.  The only times that I even would need to think about using the power shards from my brother's necro is when we are fighting a really nasty named, which I haven't found too many of so far.  Matron Zaquibai (sp?) in roost is probably the most vicious heroic named the 3 of us have fought yet, but the fight with her is too short for me to have power issues on the defiler, she is usually at about 60% power when the fight ends, and that is from spamming every ward as soon as it pops up, a couple of heals/debuffs, and curing all of the noxious dot crap she tosses out during the fight.  So I know I don't even need to hit a shard for that fight.</p><p>The bottom line is, for me as a bruiser (and I don't see why not for any other tank) no single healer can give as great a health buffer as the defiler or keep me alive as long, we have a fury in the guild we've been playing with since early on in the first everquest, and her fury doesn't even come close in recovering from massive damage bursts or in sustaining power for incredibly long fights with high damage named.  Maybe a warden can, I don't have one, and I honestly have never seen one to group with, heh, but a fury cannot.  In one more level my Defiler will have an initial 4000 ward buffer from the combined group and single ward, 1400 from the single which can be recast every 6 seconds, and 2600 from the group one that is a 15 second recast.  The single is a master 2 which every defiler can pick at 54, and the group is a master 1 I bought a few days ago.  I am currently using the master 2 group ward from my last training, which is 1822 points of damage.</p><p>If you keep your wards upgraded, you can fight any yellow and most orange ^^^ in offensive stance without ever taking a point of damage on your bruiser, and with your defiler never dipping below 90% power, 80% at most once you get cannibalize at 52.  Utilizing your bruiser's stuns plays a part in that too though.  I'm not talking about mez/stun locking them either, that eats up way too much time for regular exp, and is only viable for named fights, for leveling you can just power through them.</p><p>As for the sequence of fights for normal enemies it is just this:</p><p>1. Cast group ward</p><p>2. Pull/taunt with the bruiser.  Your defiler will have instantly regened the power used to cast the group ward before the battle begins</p><p>3. Cast cannibalize</p><p>4. Cast single ward</p><p>5. Wait for the group ward to expire/break</p><p>6. Recast group ward</p><p>7. Use manastone/recast cannibalize.</p><p>8. Repeat until the monster is exploded.</p><p> </p><p>I have had an incredible amount of experience two boxing characters in different games over the years, and two boxing a bruiser/defiler is really pretty easy, I'm sure that is true for the other healers too, which them using some kind of mix of regen/direct heals in place of the wards.  You only need 4 keys for anything normal, single ward, group ward, manastone, cannibalize.  For named heroics and epics you'll need to get used to using your trauma/noxious cures, because they can really throw out some nasty crap that will eat away at your wards while you think you are safe, and then they break through them with a big hit and you wonder where your wards went, or it was your brother's scout pet with its 0 mitigation (although disgusting damage) that just got whacked by the monster's AE melee/spell attack for 2000 damage knocking out your group ward instantly.</p><p>In answer to your second question, the direct heals aren't shabby either, but I only have adept 1s for them, because I've never needed anything other than that.  Now that there are some pretty nasty named out that can break through wards and do a bit of damage before I can recast them, and it would be really nice to have an adept 3/master 1 single heal.  The health used from the heals is minimal, and even my second best self regen spell at master 1 is enough to recover from the manastone/direct healing, you'll barely see your life move when using a direct heal.  The recast time on them does feel kind of long though, but I haven't played the other healers to compare it with.</p><p>To answer 3, it doesn't take much work at all, and regular experience fights are so short, you barely need to recast the group ward and cannibalize anyway, fights average 30 seconds for me and my brother.</p><p>To answer 4, there is a very compelling reason to use a shaman rather than another type of healer for a caster, and that is you do not get interrupted while wards are active, unless you are hit with an ability that specifically interrupts, normal damage will not interrupt you.  I used my wizard to level my defiler up to 30 to start grouping with my bruiser, since I did not start out two boxing in this game, since it just didn't seem necessary, and because my second pc hardly runs it, heh, I need to upgrade soon.  Anyway, they made a great pair, not being interrupted and just letting the monster beat on wards while you burn it down, instead of trying to root/nuke, or heal damage taken while you are getting interrupted on your caster with some other type of priest, is a world of difference.  I usually killed lower blue ^^^ with them, higher blue sometimes broke through wards, I don't think I had adept 3/master 1 wards that that level though, except the first group ward.  Reasons for using a shaman for a tank class, I gave those above.  =P</p><p> </p><p>As for the people saying that brawlers can't make great tanks, I love it, a brawler, specifically a bruiser anyway, can tank anything but the hardest orange raid mobs, anything yellow epicx4 has been tanked by a brawler before.  We have so many great options available as a bruiser, stone deaf which absorbs 3 attacks of non physical damage greater than 10% of our health, close mind which prevents/purges all control effects (stun/mez/charm) on us for 30 seconds, deadly spirit, and calloused skin.  With just an adept 1 deadly spirit and tier 6 legendary crafted, my bruiser is at 54% mitigation grouped with my defiler.  When I hit my adept 1 calloused skin, my mitigation goes up to 75%, if either were upgraded higher I would hit the 80% cap easily, I would love to get a master 1 deadly spirit and calloused skin.  Deadly spirit especially, since we can keep it active longer.  My avoidance in defensive stance is also at about 67% of my own accord, but a few classes can help me get that a lot higher, a few fabled items that add +defense/deflection are a must get as well. </p><p>As you can see, I rarely take the time to post, in fact I loathe most forums and forumwhores, but when I do, I try to make them as informative as possible.  I hope this helps you make your decision.  As for me, I would never think about anything other than a defiler as a single healer for my bruiser.</p><p>- Aaliel Stonefists.</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div>Great post Aaliel, I'm too tired to reply to some nubsauce that have no idea what theyre talking about <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Brawler = leetness <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[DresdenMalicaster]

<div></div><p>Seriously..... I leveled my last 5 levels on my warden with a bruiser at clops. No aggro issues.... I was more concerned with DPS than heals....</p><p>I'm sorry, but I completely think you're full of it when saying that a bruiser/defiler combo wouldn't be sweet. As I said, I have a defiler and a warden and I'd say for this circumstance.... take the defiler.</p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gnimish wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rhent wrote:Actually before the changes done to wards what you said about avoidance was true.  However, the tanks mitigation directly effects a wards effectivity.  I've done about 4 levels doing cyclopses in Pillar of Flames with brawler classes and plate classes.  Plate classes always took the longest for the wards to break if ever.  Brawler classes on the other hand did have wards break and they did take damage.  Mitigation is the main factor now determing a wards effectiveness and the HP's underlying that tank is just as important for getting them healed if the ward breaks in the first place.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>So are you saying that a defiler isn't a great choice for healing a bruiser since the changes or that a warden/fury would be better?  Should I be looking at other healers here like inquisitor or something?  Trying not to [Removed for Content] myself here before I start... lol </div><div> </div><div>Thanks in advance.</div><hr></blockquote><div>One thing I've noticed with my defiler, with regards to tanks, is that in a group setting, where I'm the only healer, I much prefer Guardians as tanks.  That being said, any class well-played works, but Guardians are easily the easiest to keep full health while also debuffing (which, granted, isn't as necessary with 5 other non-healers in the group - but I like debuffing).</div><div> </div><div>But one experience I had a few levels back was pretty telling.  A bruiser (or monk, to be honest, can't remember) messaged me while I was LFG.  Asked me to come to Living Tombs.  Having not really been there, I figured he was gonna fill up the group and I was his first member, but after a bit, I asked, and he said we'd be fine duoing, and get good XP.  And he was correct.  At the time, i was 54, and he was 55.  We were fighting the 55 ^^^ heroic spectre-type mobs (near the Epic Gnoll), and we had no problems at all.  We were even able to duo 2 seperate encounters of those 55's, when one popped while we were fighting one.  Great XP, also.  Manastone and Forced Cannibalize came in very handy here, as well as the avoidance.  If he avoided well early, it was simple to get all my debuffs down, then reward before he took too much (or any) damage.  And once all debuffs were landed, his DPS really showed.  I just don't think this would have been possible with a Guardian.</div><div> </div><div>So it goes both ways, really.  And it really depends on the tank, moreso than the class the tank is.</div><div> </div><div>As for normal combat in a duo situation, I'd recommend Group Ward before/during pull, then debuff as much as possible, and be sure to get the single ward down before the group ward goes away.  Recast group ward as soon as the first one goes away, and just do your best to keep the debuffs on the mob, and a ward up, and things should be fine.</div>

[JoePa]

I don't think the issue is as much on the priest side as it is on the tank side.  A defiler will effectively heal any tank arguebly as well as any other priest class.  That said, if you are going to play a brawler (bruiser,monk) the most effective priest to team with would be a shaman (defiler,mystic) with defiler getting the edge due to larger HP buffs.  Defilers work equally well with mitigation tanks, due to the changes in the mitagation becoming part of the equation in amount of damage warded.One other thing about defilers and 2 boxing, for the class to truley be effective you should be leveraging the debuff aspect of the class.  In a typical fight, there are probably 3-4 "must" debuffs, in addition to your wards.  Combine this with the durations of each, I find that it is a much more active class than some others. Now you could just use your defiler as a ward bot, but the fights will take longer and you will ward more.

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><div>Yup, the debuffs are definitely a plus in duoing.</div><div> </div><div>2 debuffs lower DPS (one is also a DoT)</div><div>2 debuffs lower multiple stats (one does "all" for 24-32%, the other does 3 of them...STR, AGIL and ?  - Loathsome Seal - for a set amount - 59 at Master, I think)</div><div>1 debuff lowers wisdom and is also a DoT</div><div>Then Forced Can, which is a very small DoT with a power regen for the Defiler</div><div>And the DD spell, which lowers poison/disease Mit on the mob (not sure if that's at all useful for a brawler type, but necros and SK's love it)</div><div> </div><div>If things are going smoothly, warding and debuffing is what the defiler has to do.  It's only when things start going sort of poor that the direct heals come into play.</div>

[sostrows]

I was in a nice SK-Dirge-Defiler trio.  About 50% higher damage on attacks from noxious stacking.And only once...SK-Dirge-Warlock-Necro-Defiler-Mystic =100%+ increase DPS off base.Food for thought.<div></div>

[Gnimi]

<div></div><p>Just a quick report back.  Thanks for all the great replies and excellent information.  I did, in fact, make a defiler to go with my bruiser and let me say that I have not regretted the decision.  She's only level 15 right now, but once you start getting ward and especially group ward with Master 2, it becomes a whle different game.  Anyone else considering this combination, I highly recommend it.  Very easy to dual-box and also very effective.  See you all in game.</p><p>Mixx</p>

[Lyasa]

would have to agree w/ defiler + bruiser as i duo w/ one and we duo stuff that i see groups wiping on. that being said we also get more loot per person since we only have to split loot 2 ways, plus duo-ing for 47 levels has helped us know what the other is doing so that is probably a bonus over a pickup group.that being said, on occasion i'd love a fury's DPS.  mine's pitiful, and i'm lucky to break 50dps when going all out.<div></div>

[blazeproph]

<div></div>talking about duoing my defiler and my friends wizard rock.

[FluffyGoat]

Thanks everyone for the awesome info here. I'm still wondering though...yes the defiler does great with the bruiser on heroics. But how long does it take to kill them? I want to cut through things like butter heh...Also what about normal mobs how quicky can you fight them? I'm either gonna do bruiser / defiler or go all out DPS with a conjurer / wizard

[Sokolov]

The Defiler ability to reduce mob DPS increases in value inversely to group DPS.  The smaller the group's DPS is, the more valuable debuffs become.<div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

<div></div><p>I play a Warden and each class has their advantages but I'd go with the <font color="#ff0000">defiler</font> for 2 boxing. Since you have an avoidance class take a huge amount of damage at once so u will probably have to cast several HoT's to compensate for one Ward.</p><p> </p><p>Don't get me wrong I'm not saying wards are better but Healing over Time spells are at a disadvantage when the damage is inconsistant.</p>

[sostrows]

Trio'd with a bruiser last night.  Certainly tanks ^^^ as well as any other fighter.  You just have to prepared to throw down some fast extra wards as brawlers tend to take big damage spikes and I find I use the small heal alot more whereas I almost never heal with a warrior.<div></div>

[Nainitsuj]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhent wrote:<div></div>And then put him against an equivically geared armored tank and run in Cyclopses and see who is going to use more mana and heals and have the biggest time with argo.  To go further, take that bruiser and then use him as a tank for X4's and compare him to a guardian/zerker for argo and ability to eat mana.  Again, you are going to take an armored tank.Brawlers get additional dps and some unique ability to make up for less taunt options and ability to take hits.  If you want I can post the exact taunt options they have compared to other tanks, and you'll be like: Oh, he's right brawler class do have less taunt options available to them.They can tank good enough for xp, however if you are the single healer in group, and thats how I operate for faster kills and better xp, I go with plate over avoidance because Wards take into account mitigation.  Everything I've seen for the mana bar at the end of fights and stress level goes down when using most of the plate classes, even a SK can handle argo than Monks I run with, and the monks are not sloppy, they are good at their class w/ what SoE has given them.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rhent on <span class="date_text">02-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well, as a necro who either groups with a zerker or bruiser, I can easily say the bruiser tanks better.  Tank isn't solely taking a hit.  It's also how often I'm going to take.  A zerker doesn't stand a chance against my pet in the hate game.  A bruiser does.

[Fromingo]

<div>If you are 2-boxing a bruiser then go with a warden.  The offensive skill buff goes nicely with bruiser defensive stance,  much less healing needed but the bruiser can still dish out high DPS.    The resist buffs of the warden play to the bruisers weakness while defiler just adds more to their strengths.  Again you say you are 2-boxing so it doesn't sound like you need outrageous poison resists or wards to absorb huge hits from raid type mobs.   Warden can also put a power regen buff on the bruiser instead of themself.  Bruisers are very power hoggish.</div>

[MrPhilPh]

<p>definitely defiler...I know you already started but you made the right choice....warden's are very effective but very high maintenance for two boxing....Defilers use debuffs with timers....wardens and furies have virtually no debuffs...warden has to spam fast recast time DDs....and fury burns power too fast</p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>Gona start a defiler and a friend of mine is probably gona start a bruiser, thats why this thread interested me. Already have a 67 warden and he has a 51 wizard I think.</p><p>Personally I wouldnt go with warden when 2 boxing. HoTs only lasts for 10 sec, so you would constantly have to recast. Wards lasts for 30 sec right?</p><p>I know a little about defilers, but how are your debuffs? are they geard vs grp or single target mob? What utility do you have? (appart from sow). Any cool anciant spells?</p><p>Would apriciate if someone could help me with this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ishnar]

<div></div><div>defiler debuffs are mostly single target.</div><div> </div><div>Personally I love abominous which lets me run under water and the countenance spell that gives me in combat health regen and turns me into a billowing cloud of EEEEEEEEEEvil.  In general though, it is wards and the extremely strong debuffs that make the class fun for me.  I'd rather debuff a mob than buff my friend.  The main problem with playing a defiler for me is that in a group most mobs don't survive long enough to bother with debuffs.  After I spend a bit of time in a group that has been killing off mobs too fast to debuff, I start wishing I made a mystic.  Then the group finds a named or an orange ^^^ and I turn it to putty and feel better again.</div><div> </div><div>Yes wards are 30 seconds. </div><p>Message Edited by Ishnar on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:41 AM</span></p>

[Daisy Lou]

aye the abominous spell is great just don't have it up if you are going to be making a long jump into water =) or cast it on your group when you know one of them is planning to make a jump!!<div></div>