The Importance of Nerfing Furies - deriving from many 'furies are wonderful posts'

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Short and sweet - healers are supposed to be balanced. I keep hearing about how much better fury healing and dps is than defilers. They can also buff their wis up and have very useful utility - group invis. We on the other hand can debuff really well but considering how much better than are in those other things (supposedly..  from some of these boards)...Please use this thread to explain to me and other defilers just how furies and defilers are balanced. And for those that are supporting furies are more powerful overall, go ahead and tell us how they should be nerfed. It would be nice for the developers to hear views on this.Of course 'I' am very happy with how my defiler is.. I heal well and I know any group I have been in has been more than happy with my performance. I am however tired of hearing on these boards how a fury is just so much better than my character in so many ways. So now if that is 'true', I simply want them to be balanced with my character. 'If' it is true of course.Still there may be furies posting then to explain just why they should 'not' be nerfed and how they arnt so uber. This will only add to the thread giving a lot of information on this very important point. So please... kindly post your thoughts on this (this was inspired by another thread here asking about priest balance).It may be improper to ask for the nerfing of another class - but I am unsure we need to be improved in anyway and balance is something this game strives for and we as paying customers need it. So I am definitely not ashamed for starting it - I have no interest in being passed up for a fury because they are simply 'better' over all and so woudl like this corrected, and if it doesnt need correcting, would appreciate on how my defiler is just as good as a fury in terms of my work as a priest. Perhaps you will tell me that my job is being an uber debuffer and a decent buffer but the overall healing power goes to the fury and 'that' is balanced. Who knows.I look forward to what happens. Btw Ive linked this thread to the 'other' priest class forums  as funnily enough fury threads seem to be on every single one of the priest forums asking about how 'they' are balanced with furies (well except mystics.. those guys didnt have a fury thread on their front page but they are the nice guys and wouldnt post such things.. hehe). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Personally I do believe my defiler is just as good as any fury overall including healing/dps but since im almost certainly to be proven wrong in this thread, Ill be happy if that information is then used to curtail their power by roving devs. Here is the time for some posters to put their money where their ample mouths have been in tooting the fury horn loud for many weeks - so I ask them to toot it one more time in one compact thread in the hope of correcting balance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (or indicating there is balance already).<p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:52 PM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div>Defilers are hands down the most valuable raid priest in the game. No ifs buts or maybes about it. They are also very very different priests from furys in regards to how you keep your group alive. It's very hard to compare anything except your DPS, and from what I gather defilers are no slackers in that area either. Even despite the fact that there are a a few badly broken things with defiler wards and certain spells that don't appear to upgrade with level, you are still one of the most powerful priests in EQ2. If I were a defiler I would continue to go quitely about doing my business and not draw any attention to your class. The furys are taking all the heat for you at the moment! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[THteampink]

I have a lvl 60 fury and a lvl 60 defiler.  I play my defiler more, they are better healers.  It isnt even a comparison on the level of healing.  Until you play both, you have no reason to comment.<div></div>

[Mr_Isht]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div>Defilers are hands down the most valuable raid priest in the game. No ifs buts or maybes about it. They are also very very different priests from furys in regards to how you keep your group alive. It's very hard to compare anything except your DPS, and from what I gather defilers are no slackers in that area either. Even despite the fact that there are a a few badly broken things with defiler wards and certain spells that don't appear to upgrade with level, you are still one of the most powerful priests in EQ2. If I were a defiler I would continue to go quitely about doing my business and not draw any attention to your class. The furys are taking all the heat for you at the moment! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>It's obvious you've never played a Defiler since every single one of these points is wrong.We're not the best direct healers by a long shot.  Really, we're excellent preventative healers.Our damage output is minimal, even compared to a Fury.Our wards are not broken anymore; not nearly as they used to be, anyway.  Carrion Aegis isn't working as intended, but it's fine as long as you pay attention to it and don't recast it until it has completely worn off.</span><div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mr_Ishtar wrote:<span>It's obvious you've never played a Defiler since every single one of these points is wrong.We're not the best direct healers by a long shot.  Really, we're excellent preventative healers.Our damage output is minimal, even compared to a Fury.Our wards are not broken anymore; not nearly as they used to be, anyway.  Carrion Aegis isn't working as intended, but it's fine as long as you pay attention to it and don't recast it until it has completely worn off.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Uh... Defiler direct heals are the best, I duno what yur talkin about. They tie for Templar with the most hp healed.

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div>Well let me just say firstly - I know defilers are not going to be nerfed any time soon. There is simpy nothing to nerf - we have had serious problems for most of this games life until the 'big' patch and even now very few people even seem to mention us in any sentence.. we simply do not exist. Look at other forums on threads about what people consider the best priest class.. we don't exist, no one even recalls our existence. And I like it that way. Oh I am sure we are not going to be nerfed 'any' time soon.. we are almost invisible and considering our low numbers its not a surprise.Secondly I know we are brilliant healers - as you can see in my post, I love my ability and don't consider my defiler second to anyone in beng a priest and a healer. But 'since' people seem intent on telling me and other defilers that furies are simply better, I want them to do it here so that appropriate action is taken. I know these people are going to suddenly become terribly quiet. Funny that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I want furies or other priest classes that think furies are mind blowing to do it here so that the game can improve, balance being one of the key aspects. I dont think its reasonable to ask people to play both defilers and furies to post here since few will have.. while that  would be the best way of approaching this, we simply do not have enough people like that. So then you simply have to have people commented on their own class and their 'observations' of another class.My observation of my class?- Defilers have the best heal to power ratio of every healer since we use both for our main heal. We have a very powerful in game health regen buff. Put that together.- We have the biggest single heal in the game.- We have group wards - and simply group wards are unarguably the best group healing mechanism vs group regens and group reactives. I have not met a single person in any class to argue this with obvious reasons.- Spiritual Circle. Ahem.- We have one of the best single target debuff combinations in the game (slows/dps reducers/stat reducer) and can buff up the MT's health highest of all priest classes.---Yet Im being told furies are better than us in healing ability. Look at the above list. Any healer that can outheal a priest class that has the above needs to be nerfed. Now since I don't believe furies can ever outpriest a defiler, its a moot point but Im sure some of these fury supporters will speak up soon <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Simply wards are incredible and preventative healing is still HEALING because damage is being absorbed when it would have been taken by the tank! So if that is the case, how the heck can a fury in his wildest dreams beat a defiler in healing hands down?I get the feeling these people are ignoring this which is rather amusing but if they are not being ignored in this 'furies are the best healing and dps priests hands down' mentality, then lets start patching things. You simply can't have one priest class be the best healers, the best dps and have something as useful as group utility all in one, so I get the feeling some of this is untrue or...<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:39 PM</span></p>

[Goozman]

<div>Mouths are continuously being shut on this issue compared to the initial outcry a few months ago. If someone is so jealous of a Fury's ability to do damage and be able to heal, they chose the wrong class when they bought the game; as this was the intention. Every priest subclass currently fits the role that any person with common sense would allocate them.</div><div> </div><div>As the less informed people learn about INT values, parsing vs all priests, propper spell use, they seem to care less about this non-issue. Then there are the more stubborn ones which only insult and attack everyone who disagrees with their radical and oftentimes inaccurate posts. If someone was a level 50 Templar when the update happened and got jealous of Fury damage, any rational person would be thinking "Ummm w t f? We all knew Templar damage would be pretty weak."</div><div> </div><div>As we'll see on the incoming priest parses that are soon to be swarming the priest forums, Clerics are where they should be, Shamans can't be parsed correctly as wards aren't actually considered heals unless they expire, and druids are where they should be. But what we'll also see is the same stubborn people constantly questioning the validity of the tests because they refuse to believe that they aren't as sucky as they think they are. Some people just live and thrive on drama.</div><div> </div><div>The only way for us to identify imbalances would be to have some super computer with absolute efficiency and proficciency play all 6 classes and every type of environment imaginable and then show us all the results. Obviously this is ridiculous. Until the end of time we'll see some people calling out an imbalance they believe is so obvious and mind boggling, while others of the same or different classes will argue the exact opposite.</div><div> </div><div>Using everything I know (and believe me, I have put soooo much time into researching all the priests' heals, buffs, damage with static int values... I used to post on this stuff all the time) through research, alts, botting other people's characters, grouping, and raiding... there is no clear imbalance that undeniably makes one class better than another. There are roles, however, that some priests play which people find more fun or desirable.</div><div> </div><div>One banana, two banana, three banana, four.</div><div> </div>

[BBouch]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>VizP wrote:<div></div><div></div>My observation of my class?- Defilers have the best heal to power ratio of every healer since we use both for our main heal. We have a very powerful in game health regen buff. Put that together.- We have the biggest single heal in the game.- We have group wards - and simply group wards are unarguably the best group healing mechanism vs group regens and group reactives. I have not met a single person in any class to argue this with obvious reasons.- Spiritual Circle. Ahem.- We have one of the best single target debuff combinations in the game (slows/dps reducers/stat reducer) and can buff up the MT's health highest of all priest classes.---<p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:39 PM</span></p><hr><span>- Defilers have the best heal to power ratio of every healer since we use both for our main heal. We have a very powerful in game health regen buff. Put that together.<font color="#ffcc33"></font><font color="#ffcc33">   Disagreed. Wardens by far. Check the numbers mate. Oooh and Wardens can regen mana also.</font></span><span>- We have the biggest single heal in the game.<font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">   Agreed. But a longer cast time. In raids it's usually too late or the other healers already got the tank back up or the Fury spell kicked in. Mystics can burst the max hp when using direct heals.</font></span><span>- We have group wards - and simply group wards are unarguably the best group healing mechanism vs group regens and group reactives. I have not met a single person in any class to argue this with obvious reasons.<font color="#ffcc00">   Disagreed. Wards do bugger all against Dots. Cleric Reactives proc with Dots. Druid Heal Over Time will counter the Dots regardless. Wards do just sit there and act pretty. Druid HoT still works if group is stunned DoT. As does Cleric. Shammy's just <font color="#ffcc00">die</font></font><font color="#ffcc00">. Oh and Hi, pleased to meet you.</font></span><span>- We have one of the best single target debuff combinations in the game (slows/dps reducers/stat reducer) and can buff up the MT's health highest of all priest classes.<font color="#ffcc00">   Agreed. And that's the Number 1 reason why Defilers are so important in raids. Debuffs and Buffs. NOT heals. But all heals still help.   Incase you havent figured it out:   Druids = raid specialists as a group healer   Clerics = raid specialists as a single target healers   Shammy = raid specialists as buffers / debuffers</font></span><span><span><font color="#ffcc00">So no need to compare apples and pears. /agree with G. </font></span></span><span><font color="#ffcc00">You want more balance? Sure. Nuke all the healer classes and have only 1 healer type. You can't make em all happy.</font></span><span></span></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:58 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:01 PM</span></p>

[Ishnar]

<div></div><div>All I know is I've tried a bunch of classes and defiler is the most fun, by far.  I don't get it.  I never thought I would like playing a healer, I guess it has something to do with preventing damage instead of healing it and debuffing the bejesus out of baddies.   That is fun too.  Joining a group and after surviving a tough battle hearing the MT say, "If it were any other healer we would have all died."</div><div> </div><div>I really could care jack for balance.  What matters to me is that my class is fun, strangly, and that I know I make a difference, that I get unsolicited invites all the time.  I could care less if the parsers can point to a number somewhere that proves some other class is better.  Good.  Go play that class.  Run around as a dumb bear.  I will run around as a black cloud of E-V-I-L.</div><div> </div><div>Those furies can't jump off the East Freeport pier and take falling damage from hitting the bottom.  I did this morning, It was cool.  I don't have to swim across rivers, I run through them.  I can give the worst baddy palsy and have my group fight an entire battle at 100% health.  I know playing ping-pong with the health bar is how other clerics get their kicks.  Me?  I get annoyed if it moves at all.  Instead of chasing the health bar, I command it.</div><div> </div><div>Heel</div><div>Stay.</div><div>Sit.</div><div>Good boy.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Ishnar on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:54 PM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mr_Ishtar wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div>Defilers are hands down the most valuable raid priest in the game. No ifs buts or maybes about it. They are also very very different priests from furys in regards to how you keep your group alive. It's very hard to compare anything except your DPS, and from what I gather defilers are no slackers in that area either. Even despite the fact that there are a a few badly broken things with defiler wards and certain spells that don't appear to upgrade with level, you are still one of the most powerful priests in EQ2. If I were a defiler I would continue to go quitely about doing my business and not draw any attention to your class. The furys are taking all the heat for you at the moment! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>It's obvious you've never played a Defiler since every single one of these points is wrong.We're not the best direct healers by a long shot.  Really, we're excellent preventative healers.Our damage output is minimal, even compared to a Fury.Our wards are not broken anymore; not nearly as they used to be, anyway.  Carrion Aegis isn't working as intended, but it's fine as long as you pay attention to it and don't recast it until it has completely worn off.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I didn't say you were the best healer, I said you were the most valuable raid priest in the game. And your group ward is broken and badly, but lucky for you you have other things that make up for it and are still excellent an excellent priest class. You obviously do not raid so you have no idea about how good a priest class defilers are.

[kell_the_kyuss]

I duo alot in DoF with a Defiler (sometimes trio with an Illusionist). We talk about the misconceptions of each others classes. The only thing Defilers are jealous of is Group Invis.

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div>Quote:<span><span>- Defilers have the best heal to power ratio of every healer since we use both for our main heal. We have a very powerful in game health regen buff. Put that together.<font color="#ffcc33"></font><font color="#ffcc33">   Disagreed. Wardens by far. Check the numbers mate. Oooh and Wardens can regen mana also.<font color="#ccccff">Im afraid you may be terribly misinformed - we regen power too - forced canabalise at level 52 and it is a 'fact' we have the best power to heal ratio BECAUSE we use health in our heals.. we split the total between them. There is no way wardens could possibly be better when we are using 'both' and thus our power us is so low. I have never actually seen this disputed.</font></font></span><span>- We have the biggest single heal in the game.<font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">   Agreed. But a longer cast time. In raids it's usually too late or the other healers already got the tank back up or the Fury spell kicked in. Mystics can burst the max hp when using direct heals.</font><font color="#ccccff">I have no idea how much raiding you do but I am in a raid guild, have my prismatic etc and myIve never found it too slow to kick in - and still raiding isnt the 'game'.. yes it is post 60 but level cap is about to go up.. and exping, that huge heal is everything. In raids I am usually in the main group where the ward is alreeady protected the tank resulting in little need for extra healing outside when the wards fall.. wards stack and my main heal is already ready to go. All about timing.</font></span><span>- We have group wards - and simply group wards are unarguably the best group healing mechanism vs group regens and group reactives. I have not met a single person in any class to argue this with obvious reasons.<font color="#ffcc00">   Disagreed. Wards do bugger all against Dots. Cleric Reactives proc with Dots. Druid Heal Over Time will counter the Dots regardless. Wards do just sit there and act pretty. Druid HoT still works if group is stunned DoT. As does Cleric. Shammy's just <font color="#ffcc00">die</font></font><font color="#ffcc00">. Oh and Hi, pleased to meet you.<font color="#cc99ff">Once more this is pretty terrible information you are using - wards absorb DOTS! I cant believe you didnt know this! Wards absorb 'all' damage. So that pretty much ends that. And do you understand the importance of thousands of health group ward on a caster who may suddenly get hit by aggro or area damage or something else? How is a reactive or a regen countering that? Once again this is a hardly argued point. Add to that group ward mechanics that ward all group members for the 'full amount' and you have a HUGE shield behind where the MT is sitting. Funny.. we did the prismatic quest a month or so back after a patch where one of the drakota before the end of deception was bugged.. the two illusions were super strong compared to the weak ones they should be (SOE said it was an accident) so that 'that' encounter was accidently harder than Darathar himself (since we were basically facing three of him). SOE suggested we wait for a hotfix, but we tried him anyway. We died a few times until I asked our leader and MT to be moved to main group. We won and could have continued for some time. Somenone said in guild chat that it was the power of 'a defiler'. Simply. Yes, yes it is, MG btw had a cleric and a druid in there before I was moved forward. </font></font></span><span>- We have one of the best single target debuff combinations in the game (slows/dps reducers/stat reducer) and can buff up the MT's health highest of all priest classes.<font color="#ffcc00">   Agreed. And that's the Number 1 reason why Defilers are so important in raids. Debuffs and Buffs. NOT heals. But all heals still help.   Incase you havent figured it out:   Druids = raid specialists as a group healer   Clerics = raid specialists as a single target healers   Shammy = raid specialists as buffers / debuffers</font></span><span><span><font color="#ffcc00">So no need to compare apples and pears. /agree with G. </font></span></span><span><font color="#ffcc00">You want more balance? Sure. Nuke all the healer classes and have only 1 healer type. You can't make em all happy.</font></span><span></span></span><font color="#cc99ff">This is NOT the case - just what about clerics and druids makes you group healers leaving us as buffers/debuffers? Do you still not understand how strong wards are and the fact they prevent huge amount of damage which EQUALS healing it if the tank had actually taken it?! Since they DO absorb DOTS (and I have no idea where you get this from.. maybe some sort of freak bug off some mobs special attack), one wonders what would happen if one can parse wards and the information that would come out for total health absorbed/healed.Anyway...If my wards are up on a tank, he takes NO damage in any circumstances until the wards go down. That is how it is and that is where we end up as a healer second to none. SOE has not intended the above, - best buffers/debuffers.. we are healers, and while you could say debuffing/buffing is inadvertant healing, I really dont think shamans are going to be pleased with that description of it.. this isnt Everquest 1.. apples and pears are not the case here. Yes there is class diversity but we are all 'healers' and not just in an inadvertant buffing sense. What if we were the only healers in a group.. you think we would be secondary healers because we woudl leave it to a druid/cleric? Im in my 50s and Ive never been secondary healer in my life and never has the group wanted anything else.So simply no - we are one of the top 'healers' - btw I am unsure my a warden decided to compare himself to a defiler when the suggestion was to compare yourself to a fury. You see, your class was never even 'considered' - yes it is a wonderful class and balanced but I as a defiler (or any defiler I have met) have never felt us remotely threatened by a warden. Not by personal experience and not by any other group members experience. Only these flavour of the month (and now few month) furies are getting all the trumpeting. And that was the point...Anyway enjoy your warden but if yorue in my gruop are you main healing to me? Hehe... I dont think so <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Misconceptions about defilers are a dime a dozen, its only other priest classes that do not 'know' about us and try to flex that is annoying. Even more when consideringfuries who are supposed to be miles better but in truth in comparison simply are not. if anything at present, its the clerics that need help with shamans and druids seeming balanced overall. Furies being mentioned all the time seems almost as if its fashionable.You see original post or not, I dont want the furies nerfed, there is nothing to nerf! I want people to realise furies are not the 'best' healers bar none. But if the overwhelming consensus 'is' then... its time to fix that.</font><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:54 AM</span></p>

[Wuoshi]

<div></div><p>If I were a defiler I would continue to go quitely about doing my business and not draw any attention to your class</p><p> </p><p>Vizp, you are fine with you defiler, ok ? so S T F U</p><p> </p><p>thank you</p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><div>That comment about wardens having the best heal to power ratio was made because that was supposed to be the advantage wardens got for having the smallest direct heals.. we have a regen attached to EVERYTHING and because of that, our "direct" heals are much smaller than anyone else's as are our power costs. And also, once you take in the full amount of healing we do (direct + regen), we heal more than both templars and defilers do (counting only direct heals here).  And I see this as true on every raid I go on.. the only healer that I ever see with equal or more power than I have (not max power but actual power during the fight) is the inquisitor because they have that nifty little mana proc buff they throw on the rangers. </div><div> </div><div>Just to show that wardens do indeed have the better efficiency:</div><div>I have a lvl 38 defiler and a lvl 60 warden, so I went and found a heal that both had at the same quality (ad1 ad3 m1 etc):</div><div>ad1 Putrified Balm: 288-352 hp healed                                79 pow and hp cost</div><div>ad1 Nature's Caress: 150-183 + 25-30/s for 6s hp healed 79 power</div><div>                                    ^(ie: a total 300-363)^</div><div> </div><div>There ya go; warden heals more for the same power cost and no hp cost. So yes, wardens do have you beat in efficiency. I would do other heals, but the large heal my defiler got as a master1 and I'm pretty sure my warden still only has at ad1. If you want me to check other heals, I will but it would take longer since I'd most likely have to go find upgrades for my warden's heals in some cases.</div><div> </div><div>And I will enjoy my warden tyvm, but I will never be in a group with you because I don't run in two healer grps as I consider the second healer an utter waste of space, be they defiler, fury, templar, you name it.</div><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:15 AM</span></p>

[markdevox]

<div>I logged into the defiler area to post a thread saying that as a 60 Fury who's real life missus plays a 60 Defiler, I really think you guys need more DPS.</div><div> </div><div>I saw this thread at the top of the section here, and decided not to bother offering support.</div><div> </div><div>People who call for class nerfs without knowing their [Removed for Content] from their elbow really get my goat!  Threads like this just generate hate.</div><div> </div><div>A defiler is a lot more useful than a fury on raids and can keep a group alive just as well as a fury.  You just need more damage output.  Nerfing furies isn't going to get you that so quit the bitter whining.</div>

[Lady Dee]

<div></div><p>Ok folks i dont know why you are all yelling and bitting each others heads off but here is my point of view</p><p>Background I am a lv 60 Fury been a fury for almost a year now, see it all before and after CC.  Raid Poets Return to complete etc where alot of the times you are forced to fight multiple orange con epic mobs</p><p> </p><p>Grouping:</p><p>All healers can and do get the job done just fine and 90% of the time 1 healer can handle your average xp group.  Power groups (ie yellow + orange con fast pulls) often need 2 healers of mixed archtype but still all goes fine.</p><p> </p><p>Raids:</p><p>No one shines in a raid,  a raid is combined effort and people who do raid end game and are sucessful at it know this.  But when a tank is eatting 3-9K melee and spell hits no ones ward i dont care who you are or how you stack is gonna stop that,  No reactive is going to heal that, No regen is gonna recover from that.</p><p>We all know it takes teamwork and cross understanding of each other to handle fight like those... basically wards stop dmg on aoe's and hits, reactives help heal on many hits after ward falls, regens help keep the tank always healing.  But when it all goes to heck in a hand basket it boils down to direct heals...and lets face the facts druids have the fastest direct cast times.  Druids heals are great for healing scouts and mages but on tanks they basically are designed to stop a spike long enough for the larger shamen and cleric heals to land.</p><p>Overall:</p><p>Sure we all have different DPS and different utility and we can compair this and that and whine and groan, but when it all boils down to raids and end game we are equal and a team and we need to all understand that...soon as one healer believes his/her class is superior is when things start to fall apart.  All the healers in my guild have total respect for each other and work together and that how we we're able to take fights like Chrikna in PP:Return with only 6 healers and no ring. </p><p>But thats only my point of view</p><p> </p>

[t0iletduck]

I personally love my Defiler and wouldnt trade him for any other healer. I do understand the OP about the misconception about Defilers being inferior healers. Heck, not to long ago I had a post asking what the highest lvl person they have had who didnt know a Defiler was a healer at all. My new record is a 54 Swash who didnt know a defiler was a healer. I think it would be safe to assume that the mass populous of casual gamers will continue to be clueless about how good the Defiler is. Just in casual XP groups I will continuously cast my single target ward, debuff the mob, and not even need to heal. The ignorant masses just think that the tank is uber because he isnt taking damage.However, I don't believe that nerfing Fury's is the solution to peoples ignorance. All the healer archtypes bring something different to the table, and all are valuable in their own way. Lady Dee is right on the money in the previous post. People who raid and hit high lvl instance zones certainly know what we bring to the table, as I know what clerics and druids bring to the table.<div></div>

[Feanor Baugl]

<div></div>I feel that I can't discuss other classes since I only have one toon and thats my 55 Defiler. From my own experience  I'll say that I get group invites enough to feel wanted. I do my job as a healer atleast from what I hear from those I group with and that's enough for me.There are some issues with Defilers I want fixed and first an foremost its the group ward line. No matter how anyone see it being "atleast its not as broken as before", "u can work ur way around the broken issue" it's still messed up. I shouldn't have to keep a close eye on the timer or have to cancel it manually for it to work, its just wrong and since I see it as one of the most vital spells in my arsenal its annoying not being able to use with 100% effeciencyI wouldn't mind having slightly more dps, so my soloing would improve but it's nothin I would want if it would mean I lost something else. And wouldn't want any other class to be nerfed so I would have "equal" dps since it wouldn't increase my own. Further more I don't really have a problem with my dps, perhaps it's because I've never played another class. and I've always felt that "I'm a healer so my dps is going to be low" But as with almost everything if it's possible to keep what u have but it would become better then ur always going to want to have it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And some other stuff but thats beside the point in this threadAs to balancing I think someone said it best when they said something in line with "it's not about having equal this or equal that it's about a balance taking everying into acount". And since there is a lvl cap it's always going to be at that point when the balancing comes in. I don't think it's possible to balancing a game from lvl 1 to cap it's to many variables. So there are things that's going to be unbalances during the way towards the cap.And everyone wont be equal at the cap either cause that would make the class system obsolete. So we are going to be good at different things, As long as all those things are needed in one way or the other then its ok. But if that wouldn't be the case then something should and must be done to balance it and that means one of two things, nerf or to make everything equal to the best. And so u know I prefer the latter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And lastly I'd like to ask all of u something. Why do people have a tendecny to get upset when discussing things like this, shouldn't we be albe to talk about this like everything else. Like another post I read the other day, it was about a player telling what he had soloed and asking us about our experience and he gets answers like "hey [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ur gonna make them nerf us yada yada yada" why?It's not like the end of the world if that would happen and if it would happen (not that I think it's likly) then there is a issue of unbalance and a fix is requierd. The game should be equally enjoyable to everyone that's why balance is important.Oh well that's my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Feanor Bauglir on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:44 AM</span></p>

[Anadarkist]

<div></div><p>Ok I've said it once on a Fury thread previously, but I will say it again here.</p><div>All priest classes can and will heal better than their counterparts in certain situations. Some classes do certain jobs better, and no one can specialize in it all. Clerics are the best single target healers, Druids are generally better group healers, and Shaman are the best at preventing damage altogether through slows/debuffs/wards. In truth, if you find that the other priest classes seem to always out heal you, and do so much more damage than you as to require a class nerf for (insert rediculously uber priest class here), you need to reroll your class because you are obviously doing something wrong. It's all about how you play your class with the strengths given to you. I've seen Defilers solo things other classes couldn't possibly, and I've seen them get run over by greens. But you know what? I've seen the same thing more or less with EVERY CLASS IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Instead of complaining just learn how to play your class, the majority of it is in the player, not the spells.</div>

[BBouch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><span><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#cc99ff">"Once more this is pretty terrible information you are using - wards absorb DOTS! I cant believe you didnt know this! Wards absorb 'all' damage. "<font color="#ffcc00">Hmm prolly good to test it then. Havent tested it out for a while (last tested about 2 months ago) so I could be wrong. I'll test it out next time.Just checked it out, it's been fixed and you're quite correct, works as intended.</font></font></font></span></span><font color="#cc99ff"></font><span><span><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#cc99ff"><font color="#ffcc00"></font></font></font></span></span><font color="#cc99ff">"This is NOT the case - just what about clerics and druids makes you group healers leaving us as buffers/debuffers?"<font color="#ffcc00">You realise you're talking to a shammy here? Clearly not. And if you don't realise the healer class specialities by now, I'm not gonna even try explain it to you.</font></font><font color="#cc99ff"></font><font color="#cc99ff">"we are one of the top 'healers"</font><span><span><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#cc99ff"><font color="#ffcc00">And really, No one gives two hoots if 'your daddy has a bigger car then my daddy'. Except you of course.</font></font></font></span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span></span></span><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span></p>

[BBouch]

<div></div>"And lastly I'd like to ask all of u something. Why do people have a tendecny to get upset when discussing things like this, shouldn't we be albe to talk about this like everything else."<font color="#ffcc00">Ooooh ooooh ooooh! Something to get philosophical about!!! Refreshing. I love you already for asking that. </font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">Hehe Feanor, now thats a great question. I think that a serious explaination for that, is as with anything in life, it's mostly 30% mechanics, 70% psychology. Which explains why people can get so emotional about silly things, and hence make silly decisions. Of course it need not be on the side of sillyness and can be other things. <font color="#ffcc00">Lik</font></font><font color="#ffcc00">e fun. Mechanics is all about the numbers and logs. Facts.I think it just comes down to one of the human needs. The need to feel significant. And some people find that need in the game with whatever character class it is. That in itself is fine, but some people just get a bit too serious about it. So here's a question pondering about.Why does it matter so much to them? I'd really be curious to know.For me, I'd rather be eating ice cream <span>rather then throw my toys around the forum :smileyvery-happy:</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:15 PM</span></p>

[Feanor Baugl]

<div><span>Bbouncer I have some question for u.I've yet seen any dmg not being warded by both the single or group unless two things1: landing the group ward before the last group ward expires or deplets (the broken part) this will cancel it out. so even tho u can see it up it wont ward anything2: landing the group when the tank is of pulling being out of range, it will look like he has the ward but he wont thus taking dmg3: Any person in group being out of range when I land the group ward and a aoe hits</span><span>So my questions is do u have a Defiler so u have first hand knowledge when ward didn't protect a DOT? If u do then please let me know where and in what situation this occur. I've use my ward on every mob I ever fought without exception and I've yet seen this happen unless the above reasons</span><span>. So from my experience  as a 55 Defiler I can say that as long as the ward is used without the above reasons the group wont take dmg it's as simple as that. If it didn't then why use it....<blockquote></blockquote></span></div>

[Feanor Baugl]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>BBoucher wrote:<div></div><font color="#ffcc00">Why does it matter so much to them? I'd really be curious to know.For me, I'd rather be eating ice cream <span>rather then throw my toys around the forum :smileyvery-happy:</span></font><hr></blockquote>Me to ice cream sounds really nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'd guess that they feel that after put in X amount of time on a toon they don't want any change done to it unless its benefisioul (most likly spelled wrong) and another reason why people get upset for things like this could be because they actaully get offended when u talk negative about the class they've choosen, it might be that they take it personal. Something like "hey I choose this class, and if ur bad mouthing the class ur insulting me as a person". Oh and if anyone reads this and takes offece then please refrain from posting it since I'm not saying that u are like this. I'm saying that someones other then u think like this <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[BBouch]

<div></div><div></div><span></span><span>So my questions is do u have a Defiler so u have first hand knowledge when ward didn't protect a DOT?<font color="#ffcc00">Mystic. And I have to say the last time I checked (LU17 or 16 I forget) it did overlook damage with Dots. Best to test it out again tho. Been really lazy about it. Maybe they did fix it since then. I'll check it next time.Just checked it out. It's been fixed.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span></p>

[NimSul]

<div></div>I dont think there has been so many non defilers on the defiler boards in game history as have posted in this thread, at least someone sees theres a defiler class now :smileyvery-happy:

[markdevox]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>I dont think there has been so many non defilers on the defiler boards in game history as have posted in this thread, at least someone sees theres a defiler class now :smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>Then everyone who doesnt see are fools :smileyhappy: some of the spells you guys get are awesome and invaluable.  Altho you do need a serious upgrade to your DPS so you can knock out writs and solo content at a decent rate if you want to.<p>Message Edited by markdevox on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:38 PM</span></p>

[Ishnar]

<div></div><p>I think you need to re-visit your own numbers.</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p></p><hr><p>Dragonrealms wrote:</p><p>Just to show that wardens do indeed have the better efficiency:</p></blockquote><blockquote><div>I have a lvl 38 defiler and a lvl 60 warden, so I went and found a heal that both had at the same quality (ad1 ad3 m1 etc):</div><div>ad1 Putrified Balm: 288-352 hp healed                                79 pow and hp cost</div><div>ad1 Nature's Caress: 150-183 + 25-30/s for 6s hp healed 79 power</div><div>                                    ^(ie: a total 300-363)^</div><hr></blockquote><p>Direct heal ratio using your own numbers.</p><p>PB 288-352/79power+hpNC 150-183/79 power.  </p><p>direct heal ratio</p><p>PB - 4.46NC - 2.32</p><p>NC has a secondary effect of 25-30/s going by your numbers that makes it a more efficient heal overall.  But PB is still the more efficient <strong>direct</strong> heal because those extra HP from NC don't take effect directly, they are delayed.  Defilers have the most efficient direct heals in the game, end of story.  Wards are also extremely efficient because they are not instant spells but short duration, a smaller percentage of the heal is wasted by spillover.</p><p>As for grouping with other healers.  Well, I certianly don't mind.  Maintaning healing, debuffing, and killing any dot effects is a major power drain.  With another healer can let them take a little of the healing slack letting me end each fight with more power so the group doesn't have to wait for me so much.  Also, grouping with a cleric is fun.  We wait until the tank is about 1/2 or 2/3 health then I slap in my ward and he slaps on his reactive heal and the tanks hp shoots up every time he takes a hit.  Talk about efficient.</p><p>The only thing I find myself wishing for in a group is a AoE debuff.  When we are surrounded by little baddies, debuffing them one at a time seems to be too much of a mana drain so I und up not bothering.  Yet, bunches of little baddies seem to cause me more party wipes than one big nasty.</p><p> </p>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ishnar wrote:<p>The only thing I find myself wishing for in a group is a AoE debuff.  When we are surrounded by little baddies, debuffing them one at a time seems to be too much of a mana drain so I und up not bothering.  Yet, bunches of little baddies seem to cause me more party wipes than one big nasty.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Uh Tendrils of Terror. nuff said

[Ishnar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Docimodo wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ishnar wrote:<p>The only thing I find myself wishing for in a group is a AoE debuff.  When we are surrounded by little baddies, debuffing them one at a time seems to be too much of a mana drain so I und up not bothering.  Yet, bunches of little baddies seem to cause me more party wipes than one big nasty.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Uh Tendrils of Terror. nuff said<hr></blockquote>I don't have Tendrils of Terror :-O  But yea,  I'm looking forward to that.  Wish I had it now!</div>

[sostrows]

<div></div>-- message deleted --got suckered into reading a drama thread<div></div><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:44 AM</span></p>

[Sharrah]

<div></div><p>Ok here is my 2 cents.......I believe that defilers are so very good at what they do because our class was so ignored and developed badly before DoF.  We had to be better than the other healers. I remember in my 20s and 30s grouping with other class healer who would remark that my wards made their jobs so much easier.  Often I would not be the main healer and was overlooked for grouping in favor of another healer. I guess what I am saying is......we worked harder to make our class good. either studied our spells or developed stratagies that worked or what ever, but the results are that now that we are appreciated and finnally got our "upgrade", those experiences added to our new skills and helped to make us the highly sot after class we are.</p><p>I cant count how many times I hear "I always thought that Defilers were bad healers but you rock"</p><p>DEFILERS RULE!</p>

[Dragonreal]

<blockquote><hr>Ishnar wrote:<div></div><p>I think you need to re-visit your own numbers.</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p></p><hr><p>Dragonrealms wrote:</p><p>Just to show that wardens do indeed have the better efficiency:</p></blockquote><blockquote><div>I have a lvl 38 defiler and a lvl 60 warden, so I went and found a heal that both had at the same quality (ad1 ad3 m1 etc):</div><div>ad1 Putrified Balm: 288-352 hp healed                                79 pow and hp cost</div><div>ad1 Nature's Caress: 150-183 + 25-30/s for 6s hp healed 79 power</div><div>                                    ^(ie: a total 300-363)^</div><hr></blockquote><p>Direct heal ratio using your own numbers.</p><p>PB 288-352/79power+hpNC 150-183/79 power.  </p><p>direct heal ratio</p><p>PB - 4.46NC - 2.32</p><p>NC has a secondary effect of 25-30/s going by your numbers that makes it a more efficient heal overall.  But PB is still the more efficient <strong>direct</strong> heal because those extra HP from NC don't take effect directly, they are delayed.  Defilers have the most efficient direct heals in the game, end of story.  Wards are also extremely efficient because they are not instant spells but short duration, a smaller percentage of the heal is wasted by spillover.</p><p>As for grouping with other healers.  Well, I certianly don't mind.  Maintaning healing, debuffing, and killing any dot effects is a major power drain.  With another healer can let them take a little of the healing slack letting me end each fight with more power so the group doesn't have to wait for me so much.  Also, grouping with a cleric is fun.  We wait until the tank is about 1/2 or 2/3 health then I slap in my ward and he slaps on his reactive heal and the tanks hp shoots up every time he takes a hit.  Talk about efficient.</p><p>The only thing I find myself wishing for in a group is a AoE debuff.  When we are surrounded by little baddies, debuffing them one at a time seems to be too much of a mana drain so I und up not bothering.  Yet, bunches of little baddies seem to cause me more party wipes than one big nasty.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Wardens will still do more healing in the time it takes both of our directs to refresh than a defiler will. period. you cannot disregard the regen component just because it's a regen. No matter how you want to slice it, wardens are the most power efficient class, not defilers. Just because the regen takes the full recast time to heal doesn't mean it hasn't healed that hp and the result is in 6s, warden has healed 300-363 while defiler has healed 288-352.

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>BBoucher wrote:<div></div>"<font color="#ffcc00">I think it just comes down to one of the human needs. The need to feel significant. And some people find that need in the game with whatever character class it is. That in itself is fine, but some people just get a bit too serious about it. So here's a question pondering about.Why does it matter so much to them? I'd really be curious to know.For me, I'd rather be eating ice cream <span>rather then throw my toys around the forum :smileyvery-happy:</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Good point.  Some people do feel the need to feel significant even if it means denying they have a problem so as "Not to look bad".  I for one could care less what kind of accolades other healers get.  I say...more power to them.  Since some of the major issues with my class have been corrected (mainly wards and mitigation) I have been quiet and <font size="2">and quite happy. I could give a flying copper what people "think" about my class becuase I know once they play with a Defiler, they will love us.<p>I'll tell everyone what our little secret is. Why we Defilers are so darn good and rare....try playing a broken class for 9 Months, and developing every strategy under the sun to succeeed, then have the main broken issues fixed (well some of them :p) , and you will be a great healer too. Having those disadvantages at the beginning, as painful as they were, IMO made us simply better players as a whole, able to utilize every spell in our repetiore to succeed. Heres another "secret", our spells are no more uberer that then next guys, its how we play that makes us great. And again that lies in our talent born from having to play a broken class for 9 months.</p><p>Anyway this is my contribution to the drama thread. Have fun and keep Defiling!</p></font>PS: Just read my guildmates', Sharrah, thread above and she pretty much summed it all up as well.  Rock on Defilers!<p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:36 PM</span></p>

[Mabes]

<div></div><p>It does seem that every healer class seems weaker when compared to fury, every healer board has oodles of threads about how much better furies are.  I play a templar, so I can't say anything about defiliers, but when comparing templars to furies, from reading the boards almost everyday at work, and looking over all the data people have presented, it seems that furies are on equal with heals, pretty much the same on buff usefulness, but have an insane amount more of dps, and have some other nice abilities.</p><p> </p><p>I'm not suggesting a nerf, but as it seems every healer board has lots of people complaining how mucy better furies are, I believe some healer class balance is in order.</p>

[MilkToa]

<div></div><div></div>Defilers are definitely tier 1 raid healers. They have great heals, excellent heal/power efficiency, great HP buffs, and great debuffs (which are extremely important when fighting endgame raid mobs).  <p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:55 AM</span></p>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Shutting this thread down due to it inciting the community.</DIV>