Defilers - The Worst Healers in the Game? Your opinion please

[Broomhilda]

<DIV>First off I want to say....I love my Defiler.  She's fun to play and I love the idea of the "evil" shaman.  I also loved the concept of "wards" and debuffs as primary tools of our trade.  But let's face it...as it stands right now it appears we are considered by many to be the worst healers in the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At most times I simply cannot be the MH in encounters with higher level mobs.  If I do pair with another healer like a cleric or warden I am automatically delegated as the "backup" healer spot.  Nothing is said, but its simply understood that is my role.  When doing Ancient Watcher several levels ago I teamed with a Inq.  The fight was challenging and went well but the end comment I heard from the warlock present was..."Ah the luxury of a "backup" healer.  He was referring to me of course.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I beleive I play my class very well...however I see my weaknesses and try to play with my strenths.  We have all dicussed this before I dont want to be redundant but our wards simply do not compare to druid regens or cleric reactives.  I'm level 47 and I have seen too many examples of this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what's your opinion of our class?  And please know that Im not dissing my own class, Im just trying to lay my cards on the table and decide if Im going to roll out a cleric (have a level 8 healer set up now, ready to go Inquisitor) or stick with my Defiler.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THoughts, comments. Lets be brutally honest here please.  Do we suck or are some of us missing the boat?  If you think we are missing the boat PLEASE explain to everyone how you play your class and how you manage to be the MH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks and much love to my fellow Defilers!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 AM</span>

[kev]

<DIV>Same feeling but much love supposed to be coming this next patch. Personally I rolled up a couple utility classes and been having a ball. At 46 now myself I'd say hold off the 3 weeks or so til next patch and see. </DIV>

[Bol]

<DIV>I honestly think we are fine. I have been only healer in groups that have taken down most of the harder single-target encounters in the game (Heart of Fear, new nekt castle instance, all the boat-rides, most quest-mobs for heritages etc etc) I am usually never oop (hell even some of the other members in group have lower power left after a battle).  The times we add another healer to the group things tend to go alot slower due to the insane decrease in dps with adding another priest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I havent played another priest-class so I cant really comment on how they manage, but as far as I am concerned I feel we are a solid healer-class. Sure, there will always exist the need for some tweaking (and of course numerous bug fixes) but I am very pleased with the class as a whole. IMO our debuffs do make it up for the small lack of healing output we have compared to others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bzolor</DIV>

[Jan It]

LU#7 will show us the way. I´m quiet sure we in fact are the weakest healers, not so much in healing/second but much more in power efficiency. So the longer a fight takes the harder a time we have. Defilers are weaker than most of us experience it while playing, because the flaws force us to be good and effective in our class, that´s how we make up for some of our disadvantages and are still able to do our job. <div></div>

[tryff]

<DIV>I had the pleasure to have my friend a lev 50 inquisitor over for a weekend playing EQ2 (i was 45). First of i can tell you that it rocks to have the healers in the same room, so sweet to call that i will dispell elemental or i will take that direkt heal and save power for both of us. But thats another story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you that he had an easier time healing our guardian when we did the Chamber of Fear event but when any ohter class got aggro he told me several times that he was glad to duo heal with me. Often he would just kick in his Zealotry (50% haste but roots and stifles the inq) and i would do the healing on the "yard trash (lev 48 to 50 mobs). I can tell you that neither me or him would have been able to solo heal the boss encounters so there we both where needed. </DIV> <DIV>We checked out eacothers debuffs and even tried just debuffing the mobs and no healing some fights against the "yard trash" and that went suprisingly well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall i think that the inquisitor is quite similar to the Defiler but he have a hard time healing anything but a guardian with his reactives and thats where we realy shine.</DIV> <DIV>It drains more power from us to heal the main tank than other classes i guess. Hoping that update 7# will give us some love in that department.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just keep on rocking, we are still the coolest healer class there is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Minor utility suggestions:</DIV> <DIV>Command spirit - Force the spirit shard back in the body of the host (host and defiler need to be in the same zone as shard). Could be a long reuse timer and cost a load of power.</DIV> <DIV>Spirit slaves - Force the spirits to "carry" the host, in effect levitate as in eq1. (could possible be abused as the game is probably not designed for levitating players).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Tryffel 45 Troll Defiler, splitpaw</DIV>

[vyperp]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I can't say your feelings are UN founded, but I have found that a defiler is a must have option most raids which for most is what they want to be doing. For group healer wise I think we are better then most people give credit but it takes some time to work your class out so you feel comfortable with it. Most of what I have to say is for the 43+ guys but the lower ones might get some ray of hope from this.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I am a lvl 50 defiler on the steamfont server I know that I do get pushed back to a secondary healer, but I also know I can make a templar/inquisitor seem useless in a group. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Here is how to prove it to your self or how I did anyway. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>GO find some of the hard mobs, maybe giants in permafrost (this goes easier if you are in a guild group). Get a group with your choice of primary healer be it templar/warden/fury/inquisitor. Now turn off all your buffs, do not cast 1 spell to help your group (this is why I say a guild group makes this easier) now watch how long your group takes to take down 1-2 mobs also see if it is a single ^^, or two ^'s or 3 normal. Watch how much power the primary healer has to expend to keep up with any healing in the group. Ok the mob will die they should not have a problem killing it but it may take some time. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Now BUFF up, get all your buffs going that you would use on a fight. Ask your templar to take a back seat. Talk to your tank, tell him to hold till you say so. Now this is how I do things.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>·<SPAN>         </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Cast carrion shield (great power efficient spell since the ward fixes) give your tank the all clear to pull.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>·<SPAN>         </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Mob comes in, tank gets all the agro now cast Atrophy, Loathing, Suppuration and Fuliginous Coil. (Use upgraded version If you have them)<BR><BR><BR></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>·<SPAN>         </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>All in all that should have taken you to the point where carrion shield has just or is about to drop or dropped a few seconds back and your tank might have taken 1-2 hits.<BR><BR><BR></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>·<SPAN>         </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Now cast Malefic Shroud this is what I call my linking spell, this allows me a few seconds to do 1 of two things. Recast any de-buffs that did not stick from the first time of casting or recast carrion shield.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>·<SPAN>         </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffffff>Either way you will be recasting carrion shield.</FONT><BR><BR>At this point your tank might need 1 or 2 heals having carrion shield up gives you time to do this. From this point on all I do is cast Malefic Shroud when you think Carrion shield, it allows you the time needed to recast carrion shield.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Normally the fights do not last as long as that so a carrion shield off that bat, followed by Malefic Shroud and a second carrion shield is normally all it takes.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>You should find that because you de-buffed the Mob the fight went a lot quicker then it did when it was allowing the other healer in-group to do it solo. Because it went quicker less healing was needed and because you are using carrion shield that absorbs so much damage you did not need to worry about spamming heals.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Now if that is not enough to convince you then go on a raid. If our stamina de-buffs if they counted as damage we would be one of the highest magical damage hitter in game.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>At this moment I can de-buff the stamina of most raid mobs for 155 stamina, we can ward against 1-2 hits with our carrion shield does not sound like much but as it counts as 1-2 hits we stop 2k+ damage were as the reactive heals fire off and at most for less then 1k of damage on those hits. Our </SPAN><SPAN>Ghastly Shroud buffs and proc’s fire off a hell of a lot and do more then most people realise.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>All I can say is Stick with it you are a lot more sort after then you realise we just have to educate people about our class and what we bring to the front line that nearly every other class can not.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>We are not healers parse. We are unique. We can main MH as well as the next person. We have to educate people about our strengths. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Hints:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Make macro’s for your spells, it saves times and casts quicker then u possibly could. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Make something like this </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>/useability </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Suppuration<BR>/autoattack stop<BR>/useability Fuliginous Coil</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Just one example now if u do that for all your spells u can keep up with anything that is going on in the battle with very few clicks. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></DIV>

[Fredric]

<DIV>I'm lucky enough to be the #1 defiler in a high end raiding guild and pretty happy to say that every class is well needed in a raid even defilers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree we are the bottom of the healing line but I just pretty much convinced myself that my others spells are what make us defilers.  Our debuffs and buffs make us mandatory for the end game.  I know its not all about the end game but this is about all I can do to try and get by everyday thinking that I didn't level a crappy toon to 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and PS, if your not using forboding/harbinger you need to, It gave our main tank 21% avoidance!  I'm hoping this is not a bug, he went from 70% to 90% avoidance (not to mention it adds hps/power).  Had everyone in my guild including the tank gasping.</DIV>

[tryff]

<P>Hmm, so you use carrion shield much. Going on raid tonight and i will sure try it out. I always used it before some major pull and those 2k damage it absorbs really help. I never used it in combat though on fear of drawing to much aggro.</P> <P>Gonna try it tonight and if we fail i will hold you personally responsible vyperpit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>/Tryffel 45 Troll Defiler, splitpaw</P>

[vyperp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tryffel wrote:<BR> <P>Hmm, so you use carrion shield much. Going on raid tonight and i will sure try it out. I always used it before some major pull and those 2k damage it absorbs really help. I never used it in combat though on fear of drawing to much aggro.</P> <P>Gonna try it tonight and if we fail i will hold you personally responsible vyperpit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>/Tryffel 45 Troll Defiler, splitpaw</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its great, i tend to use it more then i would most of my heals. on raids you normally end up comming up against 1 ^^^ mob at the end so all the damage comes from him. our heals are the qucikest to cast so we have those to backup our wards and from what i can see thats the way we should be playing it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also what raid mob you going after? depends on which one with regards to how u use it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ea]

Funny how differently people play the same class.  I've never used carrion shield and I never have any problem keeping tanks standing as the only healer.  I almost always have more power than the rest of the group at the end of a fight as well. For a tough encounter, I throw Malefic shroud and Spectral Ward on the tank right at the start.  For most fights I can actually alternate these two throughout the fight and never need to cast an instant heal.  These are far more efficient than the instant heals, so if you can prevent the tank from losing hps in the first place, you can get through a fight with a much lower power useage. For a really nasty fight, I chain Spectral Guard, Malefic shroud, healing Ritual and Sacrificial aid (soon alleviation).  I have never encountered a single encounter that I could not handle as the only healer.  I've even managed to be the only healer on some x2 encounters done by a single group. The keys to being a good defiler for me are: 1) Ward the tank before the pull if it is going to be difficult. 2) Debuff stamina immediately on the pull (Atrophy followed by suppuration).  I also like to keep fuliginous on throughout the fight.  I rarely refresh Atrophy.  I just don't find it necessary. 3) Be prepared to chain your 4 best heals together to keep the tank standing if necessary.  I've never owned these spells at less than Adept 3 level.  I think it is insane to not have your most important spells maxed out.  If you aren't doing this, this could be part of your problem. 4) If you get aggro, the last thing you want to do is heal yourself and generate more aggro, especially if it is a nasty mob.  Try your threat-reducers instead.  Heal yourself as a last resort. That's it!  I love the class and feel more than on-par with any other healer I've run across.  In fact I've always thought of myself as being one of the best healers in the game.

[tryff]

<P>We are going to try Maiden's Gulch to start the looooong road to prismatic weapons. And dont worry, mostly lev 50-49 thats going in and me becasue  we have tons of inquisitors in our guild and only 2 defilers.</P> <P>/Tryffel, 45 Troll Defiler, Splitpaw</P>

[Aelojia]

After debuffing, I tend to alternate between Malefic Shroud and Sacrificial Alleviation, works pretty well in my experience against hard-hitters. If the tank isn't taking much damage I tend to sit there and wish I rolled a mage. I love casting Carrion Shield and then hitting Manastone, the damage gets absorbed by the ward and you get 2/3 of the power back. <div></div>

[Broomhilda]

Carrion shield?  I find the casting time very long.  Is the adept 3 any faster to cast?

[vyperp]

<DIV>No cast time is no diffrent, i find having a ward that can take 2k+ damage is alot moer helpful then the single target ones. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with madiens gulch, we have done that quite a few times each time i just spam carrion sheild it stops his 60 sec aoe. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SisBoomB]

Right now my Defiler is not very far from level 39 and the next spell that I am most looking forward to is "Eerie Avenger." It sounds like a lesser version of "Purulence" and I was wondering if it is any good. Does anyone use it on a regular basis or would you consider it junk? It doesn't seem as if many of you use it during a typical fight, so it made me wonder...

[vyperp]

<DIV>I would say its junk i have never seen it fire off once, done hours and hours of testing and playing. but other say yes it does work and is worth it. if u have app 1 it only has a 20-25% chance to work. at adept 1 it has a 50% chance to work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i would say yes it s great spell, if it ever worked for me.</DIV>

[Aelojia]

Eerie Avenger is not a light version of Purulence (which imo is the best spell we get, yay soloing!). Someone has to die and eerie avenger has to fire for the pet to come out, and the pet is one downhat, it's a green pet to me at 50. I rarely use eerie avenger because the only time you want to use it is when you are sure someone is about to die. Even if you do get the heal, it isn't a lot to save the fight considering you are probably oop already. It has to be a very close fight for it to make a difference. <div></div>

[Raff]

<DIV>OK, heres some data to add to Vyperpit's reply (with whom I completely agree)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parsed two seperate encounters w/ the tundra terror in EF (using combat stats). Group was the same, buffs were the same. The only difference is I debuffed one and not the other. Debuffs were adept 3 Lothasome seal, atrophy and abhorrence and my adept 1 supporation and fuliginous DoT. The mobs were identical level 49^^.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tundra terror 1, no debuff, dotting </DIV> <DIV>total HP damage to kill = 15,449</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tundra terror 2, with debuff & dotting </DIV> <DIV>total HP damage to kill = 11,349</DIV> <DIV>my total damage contribution 1158</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The debuffs removed 4100hp from the mob and my DoT's and melee were 1158. I did 5,258 of damage, or ~1/3 of the damage to the encounter. Encounter 2 took only 2/3 of the time as encounter 1 and only required one solo ward to keep tank in the green. Encounter required 2 wards and 2 single heals to keep MT in the green. My power pool was at ~78% after the fight. High saturation drink had me full in no time post fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only did I keep the MT healed well, I was able to maintain the same DPS as our DPS folks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jan It]

<span><blockquote><hr>vyperpit wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ffffff"><span>At this moment I can de-buff the stamina of most raid mobs for 155 stamina, we can ward against 1-2 hits with our carrion shield does not sound like much but as it counts as 1-2 hits we stop 2k+ damage were as the reactive heals fire off and at most for less then 1k of damage on those hits. Our </span><span>Ghastly Shroud buffs and proc’s fire off a hell of a lot and do more then most people realise.</span></font></p> <div><font color="#ffffff"></font></div><hr></blockquote>Our stamina debuffs don´t stack I think, so it´s not 155, still STA debuffs are very strong. Additionally by warding for 2k dmg we maybe prevent a few hundred damage after mitigation which makes it mana inefficient most of the time, except if the ward is up when the mob dishes out a mighty big hit. And if the hit is too big the rest damage goes through unmitigated, whuch can do more harm than the original blow would have without a ward.</span><div></div>

[vyperp]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jan Itor wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Our stamina debuffs don´t stack I think, so it´s not 155, still STA debuffs are very strong. Additionally by warding for 2k dmg we maybe prevent a few hundred damage after mitigation which makes it mana inefficient most of the time, except if the ward is up when the mob dishes out a mighty big hit. And if the hit is too big the rest damage goes through unmitigated, whuch can do more harm than the original blow would have without a ward.<BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I belive our stamina debuffs do stack, the way i tested this was to cast Atrophy first that is our largest stam debuff, you instantly notice a debuff. Wait for a small amount of damage to be done. Then cast loathsome seal the heals bar goes to full green again becasue our second debuff hit. now wait for damage again and hit suppuration the health once again hits green. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as i have not been able to get all the paser results in yet but when i do i will show the health diff from 1 debuff and then all of them. also to note the Wis hex doll stacks as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the ward, i have adept 3 carrion sheild it absorbs 2583 dmage. if a tank is buffed up and has the right mitigations the inital hit never breaks the ward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Jan It]

You´re right, I probably tested it on mobs that don´t have that high a stamina. In Cathic Tule I could see a triple stamina debuff coming into effect nearly every fight. This clearly demands from the fighter/dps classes to only use their strong weapon art debuffs right at the start and wait at least 5-6 seconds before firing off the first big punch, because all damage done in the first 5-6 seconds doesn´t count due to our stamina debuffs anyways. <div></div>

[sostrows]

<P>We ARE the worst healers in game.</P> <P>We are equal PROTECTORS as any other priest class.  We have different tools than heal we need to use to be successful.</P> <P>I know everyone uses the term "healer" but I like to think of priests as protectors and Defilers protect the grp with wards/debuffs/heals and buffs (increased grp DPS for shorter fights).  If you're playing a Defiler as a pure healer, you're bound to be feeling gimped.</P> <P>Best example - Land those STA debuffs at start!! I dual with a Zerker and I usually pull the mob and he pulls it off me inbound.</P> <P>We usually tell the grp also to land all their debuffs in first 5 seconds because all that damage in first 5 seconds is wasted once the all the STA debuffs land.</P> <P>Message Edited by sostrows on <SPAN class=date_text>04-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:19 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class=date_text>04-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 AM</span>

[Shennr]

<DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>We ARE the worst healers in game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree with this statement. Have you tried comparing all your spells with a Fury?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you look back a page on the fury forums you will see way more complaints with their class. Right now HoT's are comparable with the un mitigating wards which is soon to be fixed. The highest heal is only 954, They have the lowest HP/AC buffs of all the priests, Since Agi is nerfed their agi buffs do not make up for anything. They do not get the same debuffs as you Defilers do. They have the agro problem that come along with HoT's like you wouldnt believe.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shennron on <span class=date_text>04-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[sostrows]

<P>Hmmmm. I'll phrase it this way then......<U>we are definately not the best healer of the 6 sublclass priests</U>.  We are probably 6th of 6th if you compare raw healing ability which is fine with me.</P> <P>Defiler abilities focus on reducing the mob's abilities.  And to say it once again.......I feel we are on par with other subclass priests in our ability to "protect" our group once you factor in debuffs, wards, heals, buffs and not just raw heals.  I know all the subclasses have a mix of debuffs/heals/protects/buffs but Defiler spells are very focused on debuffs whereas a Templar is mostly protects.</P> <P>oops....forgot.  <<This is only my opinion>></P> <p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class=date_text>04-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>We ARE the worst healers in game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree with this statement. Have you tried comparing all your spells with a Fury?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you look back a page on the fury forums you will see way more complaints with their class. Right now HoT's are comparable with the un mitigating wards which is soon to be fixed. The highest heal is only 954, They have the lowest HP/AC buffs of all the priests, Since Agi is nerfed their agi buffs do not make up for anything. They do not get the same debuffs as you Defilers do. They have the agro problem that come along with HoT's like you wouldnt believe.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Shennron on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shenron, I'm guessing your a Fury.  So unless you have played a Defiler please don't make any judgements on a class you know nothing about.  If you are indeed a Defiler on the HIGH END of the game and you feel Furies are worse off than us, please start another thread and address that issue there.    Just because we dont have as many complaints as furies does not make them any worse off than us.  Upon looking at this board for the past few months I see that many Defiler issues have been discussed here at legnth.  Defilers like Pukta and other high lvl shamans brought to the forefront important issues with our class that need to be addressed (they were also  the first to take Screenshots of disappating wards due to DOT damage).  </P> <P>I'm sure Furies have their issues, but sitting down comparing "who has it worse" isnt really productive.  I started the thread because of comments I have heard during gameplay and on these boards that referred to the poor healing ability of Defilers.  So far we have had good discussion here about Defilers and I'd love to keep it going.  </P> <P>Good Luck!<BR></P>

[Vandessa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Shenron, I'm guessing your a Fury.  So unless you have played a Defiler please don't make any judgements on a class you know nothing about.  </P> <P>I'm sure Furies have their issues, but sitting down comparing "who has it worse" isnt really productive.  I started the thread because of comments I have heard during gameplay and on these boards that referred to the poor healing ability of Defilers.  So far we have had good discussion here about Defilers and I'd love to keep it going.  </P> <P>Good Luck!<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Picking a nit here: can't the same for us  be said if we sit around and claim 'we are the worst' without playing all the other healer classes to high level just to be sure.</P> <P>I've played with high level druid furies and templars and while, yes, we don't nearly heal as much. We have other abilities that comensate (or are supposed too) by preventing damage, and helping kill the monster faster so it doesn't deal so much in the first place.  There are times when I've saved my parties from certain death that a prior druid or templar haven't been able to do.  Just because of the DPS addition and stamina debuffs.. and vs caster mobs our AOE ward is a godsend to keep healers from going insane keeping track of everyone in the group.</P> <P>I love Defilers, it makes you think, stragegize, and not sit and just mash a heal button over and over again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[sostrows]

<P>Replaced a Templar in a pickup group in Rivervale.</P> <P>After 15 minutes, group was like "wow, we killing this stuff so much easier now" and "going fast now"</P> <P>Followed by some other nice comments about my cool wraith form and how no one knew I was there because they cant see the Defiler toon half the time since LU#6.   My response was "just wish my new found invisibility applied to mobs".</P> <P>I would argue the ability to perform as a priest is about 80% person's skills and 20% person's subclass.</P> <DIV>Would be interesting to see a post from someone who played 3 priest subclasses to a significant level.</DIV>

[Broomhilda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vandessa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Shenron, I'm guessing your a Fury.  So unless you have played a Defiler please don't make any judgements on a class you know nothing about.  </P> <P>I'm sure Furies have their issues, but sitting down comparing "who has it worse" isnt really productive.  I started the thread because of comments I have heard during gameplay and on these boards that referred to the poor healing ability of Defilers.  So far we have had good discussion here about Defilers and I'd love to keep it going.  </P> <P>Good Luck!<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Picking a nit here: can't the same for us  be said if we sit around and claim 'we are the worst' without playing all the other healer classes to high level just to be sure.</P> <P>I've played with high level druid furies and templars and while, yes, we don't nearly heal as much. We have other abilities that comensate (or are supposed too) by preventing damage, and helping kill the monster faster so it doesn't deal so much in the first place.  There are times when I've saved my parties from certain death that a prior druid or templar haven't been able to do.  Just because of the DPS addition and stamina debuffs.. and vs caster mobs our AOE ward is a godsend to keep healers from going insane keeping track of everyone in the group.</P> <P>I love Defilers, it makes you think, stragegize, and not sit and just mash a heal button over and over again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>No need to pick anything.  This thread was basically a call for discussion with other defilers.  And Ive already stated my reasons for posting it whcih was comments I have heard in game and out about our healing abitlity.  What I didnt want to see was a "we got it worse" discussion between us and another healing class.  However if people feel thats a productive discussion, go right on ahead.</P> <P>Hey if you think Defilers are fine as they are more power to ya!  I however beleive that we have issues that need work.   I will ALSO say once again, that I never saw these issues until the higher levels and they especially reared their heads in my early 40's.  I was absolutely happy with my Defiler up until that time.  So Im not sure what level you are, but if your over 40 and still feel we are Neeto, please share your tips <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The diversity of being a Defiler was my number one reason for chooseing the class.  As I stated I love the ward/debuff healing strategy which makes things much more exciting.  I think we can all agree on that.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[sostrows]

<DIV>I'm fine with other priests posting here saying that they have it worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on, your thread title is "Defilers - The Worst Healers in the Game?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're just begging for "I have it worse" posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've based my comments on what I hear and from looking at the spell lists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What we really need is for some folks who have played the game to lvl ~30 or ~40 or ~50 with several classes to comment.</DIV>

[Broomhilda]

<P>Whatever sostows.  I have no intention of engaging in the "I got it worse than you" BS.  Go Knock yourself out with that if thats what you want:smileywink:  If I had been "begging" for that kind of unproductive discussion I would have posted this in the main Priest forums or the Spells, skills etc. post on the main boards.</P> <P>I really think the games to young to find someone that has played each healer class (both evil and good) to a high level yet, so Im not holding my breath for someone to post here. </P> <P>Thanks to the other defilers contributions to the thread.  :smileyhappy:</P>

[sostrows]

<P>Come on Broom, keep a thick FP skin on this issue.</P> <P>The title of your post can be translated to "Defilers got it worst! Your opinion please."  What kind of discussion do you expect when your post proposed that we are worst out of 6 subclasses except comparative arguments?</P> <P>If you can't see that and be open to others who contend we are NOT the worst protectors then you really did not want opinions - just affirmations.  I assume you wanted opinions though and we have seen alot of great comments in the last two pages.</P> <P>I agree with you that until someone plays game to 50 with multiple subclasses, its real difficult to prove either case and we may never be able to "prove" any subclass is inferior.</P> <P>Either way, peace out and I'll see you around.</P>

[Bol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR> <DIV> Do we suck or are some of us missing the boat?  If you think we are missing the boat PLEASE explain to everyone how you play your class and how you manage to be the MH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>04-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No defilers do not suck. Clearly you are missing the boat if you think we suck. How to play this class and be able to defeat every single-target encounter in the game (including HoF, Bastion of Flames, several x2-group encounters, Flamelord Thyr, the new Nekto castle etc etc)? Well, I have a simple answer, use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Ive seen several defilers saying they dont use debuffs cause they suck, they dont use wards cause they suck, they dont use DoTs cause they dont wanna waste power.. Well, let me say again: Use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Myself and others are living proof we as a class are not broken. </P> <P> </P> <P>Bzolor, 50 defiler Splitpaw<BR></P>

[Broomhilda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bolor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR> <DIV> Do we suck or are some of us missing the boat?  If you think we are missing the boat PLEASE explain to everyone how you play your class and how you manage to be the MH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>04-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No defilers do not suck. Clearly you are missing the boat if you think we suck. How to play this class and be able to defeat every single-target encounter in the game (including HoF, Bastion of Flames, several x2-group encounters, Flamelord Thyr, the new Nekto castle etc etc)? Well, I have a simple answer, use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Ive seen several defilers saying they dont use debuffs cause they suck, they dont use wards cause they suck, they dont use DoTs cause they dont wanna waste power.. Well, let me say again: Use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Myself and others are living proof we as a class are not broken. </P> <P> </P> <P>Bzolor, 50 defiler Splitpaw<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>So you were MH in all the high end group encounters simply by using your abilities?  And Defilers need absolutely no fixes?  Very impressive!  But please be more specific and less rude in your response <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  What exactly do you do in order to be MH in all the high end encounters?  IE: what debuffs do you use first, what ward/heal strategy do you utilize...etc.  Explain please!  </P>

[Fredric]

He chain casts...

[Bol]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bolor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR> <DIV> Do we suck or are some of us missing the boat?  If you think we are missing the boat PLEASE explain to everyone how you play your class and how you manage to be the MH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>04-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No defilers do not suck. Clearly you are missing the boat if you think we suck. How to play this class and be able to defeat every single-target encounter in the game (including HoF, Bastion of Flames, several x2-group encounters, Flamelord Thyr, the new Nekto castle etc etc)? Well, I have a simple answer, use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Ive seen several defilers saying they dont use debuffs cause they suck, they dont use wards cause they suck, they dont use DoTs cause they dont wanna waste power.. Well, let me say again: Use the abilities given to your class and you will be fine. Myself and others are living proof we as a class are not broken. </P> <P> </P> <P>Bzolor, 50 defiler Splitpaw<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>So you were MH in all the high end group encounters simply by using your abilities?  And Defilers need absolutely no fixes?  Very impressive!  But please be more specific and less rude in your response <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  What exactly do you do in order to be MH in all the high end encounters?  IE: what debuffs do you use first, what ward/heal strategy do you utilize...etc.  Explain please!  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok first off I have never said that we dont have spells that need fixes. There are some that definately needs som fixes, but as a whole I think we are pretty good. Since it seems to be so hard I guess I can let you know how I play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs: Tlonas on tank, wraith on myself (mostly for power reasons), ghastly and voracity. Also put the rest of the single-target spells on tank. Always have the tendrils-line up and running. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Start off fight. Usually put up a ward on tank if we face named encounters. When me and a guardian-friend duos lvl 50 double-arrow mobs i usually put up purulence and pull myself to ensure the pets pop (works great in the lavastorm-instance and in miragul). For full groups I save purulence for dangerous situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When tank pulls I use the sta debuff asap. Then put up the rest of the debuffs (including the DoTs and the DD since they all also are debuffs) Rest of fight alternate with casting refreshing debuffs and dots, additional heals and wards. Usual group setup has been defiler, guardian, guardian, brigand, necro, warlock. I rarely ever run out of power during any fight. I dont have any really fancy gear. Spells are mostly at adept 1 and adept 3 (although the adept 3 versions I have gotten just lately so the most fights have been done with adept 1 on spells). I usually dont heal anyone but the main tank with the exception on very AE-heavy encounters. I have both group cures available to defilers and i use cure-spells ALOT when needed. The insta-spells are mostly used when in very dangerous fights. Sometimes I do pop purulence at start of fight to ensure the groups dps is a tad better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>What do I feel we lack atm? Well, we could use some resist-buffs, group cures as the qeynos counterparts and some spellfixes (including the bane-line). Other than that I am pretty satisfied. Defilers work in group-encounters and defilers work in raid-encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Answer enough broomhilda?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no fredericks, havent really faced any encounter sofar where spamming heals are needed (with the exception of lord everling and flamelord thyr due to low heat resists).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Broomhilda]

<P>Wow great info Bzolor, thanks for the explanation even tho it was given in an absolutely condescending manner! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Im not sure where all this anger is coming from in this thread among you and others, but please know it was only started to get an open discussion going <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I find that when I debuff/dot I can handle most situations quite well, however with resistant mobs I find myself in trouble and having to spam wards/heals.  And this is where I can see where my healing falls short.  As alot of mobs are quite resistant to my debuffs/dots I am still finding playing my Defiler quite challenging and in some cases, downright disappointing.   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Fredric]

<DIV>Didn't say anything about spamming heals. </DIV>

[vyperp]

<DIV>Ok i have to ask, have any of you tried the carrion sheild way of healing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried out a few ways people say they pull and play and i find that i just can't switch into them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>can i also ask, how many of you have your spells in macro's? i spoke to a few people and it seems that they thought i was a rather perculier person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xesor]

Depending on the fight, I will either heal, or just carrion shield repeatedly.  I have no idea what the "carrion shield way of healing" is though =) As soon as they put a 'pause' function in the macro system, I might bother using them for something other than raid heals.  Or, the day they make this macro work: /useability Spirit of the Wolf /target SoandSo /useability Spirit of the Wolf Until then, I think the macro system for this game blows. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Broomhilda]

I'm a noob.  I'm not even sure how these macros work.  I have my hotkeys set up and just use them basically.  I need to read up on this macro stuff for spells.  I have set up macros for other things but not spell use.

[Vandessa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR>I'm a noob.  I'm not even sure how these macros work.  I have my hotkeys set up and just use them basically.  I need to read up on this macro stuff for spells.  I have set up macros for other things but not spell use. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Macros are good in some ways, I like them to add shouts to my spells that need like "Warding Tank, please don't pull yet!"  But beyond that I prefer not to use them much. I feel I have better control without the macros running and posibly being tripped up by joe mob. Recasting a macro over and over again tends to annoy the group/raid. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, another tip to those Defilers that deal with lag: The ground is your friend - look at it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Return your camera to first person and look at the ground durring large encounters. You don't needs to see the mob anyways, just your group bar. And, if you want to do damage to a mob, just select the tank and nuke/dot/debuff away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its an old method from EQ1 that healers used to do on raids. Works great to stop the lag and have a more fluid control on what you are doing.</DIV>

[Bhagpuss]

<DIV>I play a 31st Templar, 30th Fury and 30th Defiler, so I have very direct experience up to that level. I played a 65th (when that was the cap) Cleric in EQ1 and I came here hoping to play something similar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In Beta I went for a Templar, reasoning it would be most like the EQ1 Cleric, and at first it was. When I began in Beta all three Priest classes had direct heals, wards and regens. There were no reactive heals. At that point most priests were quite happy with how things were, and the Templar did play quite similarly to an EQ1 cleric. Then things were changed to something like the way they are now and the classes diverged quite noticeably.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I began EQ2 Live with another Templar, but by the mid-20s I was quite disatisfied with him. The reactives did not seem like proper heals to me, although they were very effective, and the direct heal options, particularly group heals, were bland and limited. Offensively the Templar has one trick - Smite, Smite and Smite again. Overall, the Templar seems to be a rock-solid efficiency class that I found very dull indeed, something I <EM>never </EM>felt about the EQ1 cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then I played up a Fury, which I found to be a lot more fun. The dots and debuffs gave nice variety to gameplay, I loved having SoW and lion form, and the group heals were excellent. However, healing with regens seemed a lot less effective than Templar reactives and I certainly found myself burning more power toget the same effect. Overall, I thought the Fury was more fun than the Templar, but not as efficient a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next I moved onto the Shaman class, specifically a Defiler. From the start I could see I was going to prefer this of the three. It had far more versatility than either of the others, while retaining very good efficiency in the prime role of healer. Of the three class-specific types of healing I find Wards to best suit my playstyle (mainly duos and trios). It allows me to prepare for pulls and pre-empt danger in a way that vitaeing or regenning don't seem to do nearly as well. The direct heals are embarassingly good - considerably better than my Templar's direct heal spells, which I don't understand, since Clerics were, I thought, supposed to be the best at direct healing. The debuffs are excellent and the Defiler has a good choice of dots and direct damage spells, plus some good utility spells as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wanted to play one of each sub-class to 30 before I decided which to take to 50th. I may yet play all 6 subclasses to 30 before i make a final decision. At the moment, though, I would say that without doubt the Defiler is the one I like best, and in pure healing terms it is certainly superior to the Fury.</DIV>

[DCpunk]

Thanks for that insight, Bhag! <div></div>

[Docimodo]

<DIV>Id like to correct the person who said that we need more resist buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ghastly shroud (master 1) will, amongst other very useful things, buff physical mitigation versus all damage types by 550   (that is piercin, crushing and slashing damage)!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Physical resists are not displaed on the standard eq2 ui. I use one called MyUI from eq2interface.com which displays these resists aswell as having lots of other groovy things</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im of the opinion we are a class designed to reduce the physical damage output of a mob and we do this quite marvelously... It doesnt stop there however. If you play this class well you will be godlike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tthe only time Ive experienced difficulty in a single group is when I tried to <FONT color=#ff0000>solo heal</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>a</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>level 56 x2 encounter in a group of six </FONT>that had two AEs that were not based in physical damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes you read this correctly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Red Whisper]

<P>Ahoy hoy.  I may not be the high end you're looking for in these posts, but I have a lvl 40 inquisitor and a defiler who hit 24 tonight, and I have some thoughts here.</P> <P>I loved the quizzy up through the low-mid 30's.  But then, monotony started to set in.  The inquisitor's de-buffs are helpful in many situations, but generally, I found my game to be limited to: cast reactive, de-buff, de-buff, cast reactive, la la la, cast reactive, and so on and so on, with the occasional direct heal thrown in the mix.  I used to pray for someone else in the group to draw aggro from tank so I'd have some variety.  Whenever I was grouped with another healing class, especially shammies, I would usually be dubbed main healer, but found very little to do because their wards and de-buffs were so effective.</P> <P>Now the stifle was fun, especially when taking on something like 9 evil eyes at a time in Runnyeye, and trying to keep it up on as many mobs as possible and still heal.  Then it got nerfed, justifiably or not, and I just lost all interest in the character.</P> <P>That being said, I have had a blast on the defiler so far.  Especially, as others have mentioned, because of  the variety of things that we can do: de-buffs, wards, direct heals that don't take 45 minutes to cast.  The DoT's at lvl 24 are about as powerful as anything my quizzy had at lvl 40.  On some mobs, I don't ward or heal at all, just cast slows and de-buffs.</P> <P>I'm not trying to take part in the "who has it worst" debate, I've played a zerker, quizzy, druid, brigand, bruiser, and defiler to various levels, and now have a noob chanter, and they all have their problems for sure.  The inquisitor may be a better or even more efficient  <EM>healer</EM> than the defiler, but so far, the defiler is far more enjoyable to play.  And after all, it is a game, and I don't think it should always be about what is most efficient, but what is most fun.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Fredric]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Docimodo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Id like to correct the person who said that we need more resist buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ghastly shroud (master 1) will, amongst other very useful things, buff physical mitigation versus all damage types by 550   (that is piercin, crushing and slashing damage)!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Physical resists are not displaed on the standard eq2 ui. I use one called MyUI from eq2interface.com which displays these resists aswell as having lots of other groovy things</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im of the opinion we are a class designed to reduce the physical damage output of a mob and we do this quite marvelously... It doesnt stop there however. If you play this class well you will be godlike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tthe only time Ive experienced difficulty in a single group is when I tried to <FONT color=#ff0000>solo heal</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>a</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>level 56 x2 encounter in a group of six </FONT>that had two AEs that were not based in physical damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes you read this correctly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> Actually what we (I) mentioned is the fact we have no resist buffs vs any type of magic, I'm not certain but, I believe we are the only caster that doesn't (inc bards) except maybe necros.  As for Ghastly Shroud,  Inquisitors have the same spell and resist buffs.  I believe the ac part of Ghastly Shroud has a ton of stacking Issues.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.  If you go around bragging about god like abilities you are only going to call for a nerf bat.  /point Mystic nerf.</P><p>Message Edited by Fredricks on <span class=date_text>04-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:44 AM</span>

[VizP]

Either way though the message is clear - defilers play their part by ensuring there is little to heal! Debuffs plus slows severely shut down mobs and then you are left to your wards and heals to protect your MT against whatever damage 'is' coming through. The truth here is that the majority of defilers that moan about the class don't do the former properly and then moan about the latter. We can't 'heal' as well as well as we are supposed to - well if you actually ensured you did the first component of this equation, you will see that you would have less to worry about later. As for templars vs defilers.. I don't know, you should see the number of healer players just dont have a clue. Rana cross a templar in my group one lvl above me - started relaxing since a cleric plus shaman is easy times. Come across a difficult mob, he can't get any of his reactives to sticka nd boy was his pure healing terrible! I ended up as a defiler needing to somehow heal and damage (and check this, in a group with shadowknight, templar, necro and guardian, I was the severest DPS when I wanted to be). So there I was expected to pretty much MH the MT (even though there was a templar there but he couldnt do anything.. perhaps unupgraded spells), easily able to outdamage a necro (not saying much but we are supposed to be healers) and then debuffing and slowing the crap out of the targets. If I didnt damage, the mob just stood there, if I didnt heal, the MT died, and if I didnt debuff, the outgoing damage was much more immense. Moral of the story - we are able to do many things well, but many defilers only want to 'heal' without doing anything else. Poor class players in EQ... will it ever end <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Docimodo]

<P>Sorry for the misinterpretation. Yes we lack anything to counter anything but physical damage. But we cant have everything can we...</P> <P>As for the other bit, I apologize for being honest...  Its probably not the class being powerful, its just how I play the game and the people that I group with most likely... </P> <P>Any class imo will be 'powerful' when controlled by a skillful player. U just have to judge how much is coming from the class and how much from the player. I suspect it leans towards the latter quite heavilly.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and about the stacking issues... <A href="http://vindicate.eq2guilds.org/image_view.vm?imageId=322329" target=_blank>http://vindicate.eq2guilds.org/image_view.vm?imageId=322329</A> (screenshot from my MT)</P> <P>note the stats monitor on the lower left...</P> <P>Message Edited by Docimodo on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:11 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class=date_text>04-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 AM</span>

[Rhe]

Defilers are one of the most well balanced classes in the game currently as it comes to being a priest.  They heal slower and less often, however defiler stat debuffs and slows make up the difference and balances things out.  A defiler is on par with all other healers in the game. <div></div>

[Mortakai]

<DIV> <DIV>Furies are worse healers than we are. Hands down. I've grouped with one since lvl 20 (I'm 49 now). I actually tested this in permafrost with a solid group (just people from my guild that I've been grouping with since release) and the Fury i've grouped with since lvl 20. Fury went afk and I had absolutely no problem keeping the group alive for 30 minutes. I needed to use the bathroom and grab a cigarette so I was afk for about 7 minutes. I come back to discover most of the group died twice because the fury couldn't keep up with heals. We suck at pure dps (fuliginous coil adept 3 and ruinous imprecation master 1 so I know) but when you start throwing in the STA debuffs (it really helps to have atrophy adept 3) we really start to shine. If you think we're primarily stat debuffers/warders, you're wrong. If you think we are just healers, you're almost right, but you're still wrong. One thing that can make us hardcore healers is Oakfallow's Eldritch Ritual (lvl 30 adept 2 choice) and getting your hands on Sacrificial Aid Master 1 (Not sure about other servers but on my server (Steamfont, same server as viper) there's almost always 2 or 3 floating around on broker for about 50g). Fetid Balm (lvl 42) is crap once you have Oakfallow's and I only use it on difficult raids when we're a priest or two shy. I employ similar tactics as Viper, I differ in a few places but that's just differences in play style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purulance - God I love that spell, wards the same as Carrion Sheild but it's intsant cast, and spawns pets when broken (great for solo)</DIV> <DIV>Eerie Avenger - Worthless before adept 1 but it's a good thing to put next to your emergency instant ward just in case. Also get in the habit of clicking both in a tough situation, it's saved a several of my groups from wiping and having to run a long way back.</DIV> <DIV>Mail of Souls - At first you want to think it's just crap and only used for soloing, but when the tank gets stunned/mezzed/silenced and you have more than one encounter you need to have a way to get the mobs off of you so you can heal/ward while the tank regains agro. How this works: encounters come after you, you use the other spell Devitalizing Chant to lower threat, you heal someone who took the agro from you and all of a sudden you have the mobs back on you and Devitalizing Chant isn't up leaving the mobs to beat on you until the tank has a chance to regain control (if you're still alive to help keep the tank alive afterwards). If you used Mail of Souls instead of Devitalizing Chant the mobs would come after you, Mail of Souls is used, Mobs take some damage before running away (not much but some), you heal and ward, mobs come back after you, mobs run away taking a little bit more damage, then usually by this time tank is back to normal and ready to take charge.</DIV> <DIV>Devitalizing Chant - Try to avoid using unless you have a bad tank in the group. The other sneaky use I've found is for soloing difficult mobs. It has a power drain with it so you use it midfight.</DIV> <DIV>Dread Invective and Watery Horror - I was shocked and amazed to find out other defilers don't use these spells because *gasp* it's only a 5% chance. It's a very cheap and easy method to throw in a bit more dps especially in multiple mob encounters when the tank is taking many more hits than a single heroic ++ mob would be giving (if it makes the mob die faster then we don't have to heal as much).</DIV> <DIV>Tendrils of Fear and the upgrade - It was horrible at 3 minutes but since they upped it to 10 mintues I've gotten into the habit of using it and it makes a decent difference in damage received by the tank (not leaps and bounds but significant enough to be noticed)</DIV> <DIV>Harbinger - Doesn't seem to be as good as the rest of the buffs (2 concentration is a little misleading) but for difficult mobs drop Baleful Efflux (It's broken anyways) and Courage/Spiritual Seal (whichever you may be using) and give it to the main tank. It adds a decent amount of hit points, power and above all else, +4 to Defense skill. That means your 50 tank is tanking more like a 51 tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing I would like to mention is the fact that nearly everyone in EQ1 "knew" Necromancers were a solo only class even the other Necromancers. The sad thing is, Necromancers had so many spells that were more than beneficial to the group that they became the "jack of all trades" when needed to be. Why, because nobody knew better, and nobody cared. And that's what I'm starting to see happen with the Defiler class. Not enough people are learning the ins an outs to prove how effective we are. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, I've written a small novel and it's 4AM est. If anybody has any questions about the class feel free to send me a tell. /tell steamfont.mortakaie for those of you who don't know how to do cross server tells. I'm usually on in the evenings after 5PM est.</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[surolan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mortakai wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harbinger - Doesn't seem to be as good as the rest of the buffs (2 concentration is a little misleading) but for difficult mobs drop Baleful Efflux (It's broken anyways) and Courage/Spiritual Seal (whichever you may be using) and give it to the main tank.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with lots of what you said, I too use tendrils, dread invective, and watery horror ....so what if some of our spells only have a "chance" to do stuff...It would be nice to know they will proc but if that is all they will give us (SOE) a "chance" to work, then its worth a go! </DIV> <DIV>I also use devitalizing chant and mail of souls if I get agro, in addition I also use Tarton's wheel occasionally too and have found that the anti hate proc and "move me out of the way" proc on that item really works if the tank is a lower level than me and I steal his/her agro its also extremely funny to disappear and reappear out of the mobs way! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must test at some point the spell we get from the vampire zone to see if that gives any effect on something other than vampires, I dont mean the umbral one, I mean the other one, I can't remember what its called hehe!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would just like to add that Tiona's Dark Omen (our level 40 training) is much better than Harbinger as it adds AGI and WIS. I also used to use Baleful Efflux, if I didnt need the extra power from Malefic countenance if a chanter was with us, until it was broken, as it gave the group more hp and the possibility of noxious mitigation, ok it isn't much, but it all helps right? Shame its not worth even casting at the moment though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also...a quick question...do you really still use spiritual seal and courage at 49? I retired these long ago, because I thought Voracity and Ghastly Shroud were upgrades, or was that just a mistake?</DIV>

[Fredric]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Docimodo wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry for the misinterpretation. Yes we lack anything to counter anything but physical damage. But we cant have everything can we...</P> <P>As for the other bit, I apologize for being honest...  Its probably not the class being powerful, its just how I play the game and the people that I group with most likely... </P> <P>Any class imo will be 'powerful' when controlled by a skillful player. U just have to judge how much is coming from the class and how much from the player. I suspect it leans towards the latter quite heavilly.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and about the stacking issues... <A href="http://vindicate.eq2guilds.org/image_view.vm?imageId=322329" target=_blank>http://vindicate.eq2guilds.org/image_view.vm?imageId=322329</A> (screenshot from my MT)</P> <P>note the stats monitor on the lower left...</P> <P>Message Edited by Docimodo on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:11 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Docimodo on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:23 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Don't get me wrong Doc, I love defilers I just think there could be a few adjustments.  When you say we can't have it all thats where you're wrong.  Other priests do have debuffs/buffs/heals/class heals <EM>and resists.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for that screenhot, I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Don't see a stat monitor on the left...</DIV>

[Mortakai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> surolan wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Also...a quick question...do you really still use spiritual seal and courage at 49? I retired these long ago, because I thought Voracity and Ghastly Shroud were upgrades, or was that just a mistake?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Both mostly stack with the rest of our upgraded spells. If you cast all of the final spells in the series then only used 4 concentration. Courage stacks HP/AC and Spiritual Seal stacks extra Nox mitigation. And since discovering that Harbinger adds almost a full level of defense, I haven't used either.

[cael]

<P>I'm a level 36 defiler and I really enjoy being the backup healer. When there is a inquisitor or templar in the group it gives me a chance to actually play the class like I'm supposed to. I can DOT and ward and slow and throw a heal in here and there when needed. </P> <P>Think of being the backup healer as a compliment. It's not a bad thing.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[DCpunk]

<span><blockquote><hr>caelie wrote:<p>I'm a level 36 defiler and I really enjoy being the backup healer. When there is a inquisitor or templar in the group it gives me a chance to actually play the class like I'm supposed to. I can DOT and ward and slow and throw a heal in here and there when needed. </p> <p>Think of being the backup healer as a compliment. It's not a bad thing.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Youonly have to be a backup healer if you're not playing the class right.</span><div></div>

[tryff]

<DIV>So just because one enjoys being backup healer then they are playing the game wrong? Bah..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The defiler is one of the best healers equipped to take that job with debuff and DPS. Set a Templar as backup healer and he is just a waste of space. A Defiler is not a waste of space as a backup heler. The mobs will go down much quicker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, i have solo healed in most of the highlevel content and that works ok also, sometimes though its fun as hell just debuffing doing damage and not care about MT health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note: I must say that in my early forties I felt kind of gimped as a defiler but now at 49 I most certantly do not feel gimped at all and have no worries taking solo heal responsibilities for a group.</DIV>

[DCpunk]

<span><blockquote><hr>tryffel wrote:<div>So just because one enjoys being backup healer then they are playing the game wrong? Bah..</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> Obviously you missed this sentence in the post I was addressing: "</span><span> When there is a inquisitor or templar in the group it gives me a chance to actually play the class like I'm supposed to." So, the poster is saying that the Defiler's role is SUPPOSED to be that of a backup healer. It is not. </span><div></div>

[Mortakai]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tryffel wrote:<BR> <DIV>So just because one enjoys being backup healer then they are playing the game wrong? Bah..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The defiler is one of the best healers equipped to take that job with debuff and DPS. Set a Templar as backup healer and he is just a waste of space. A Defiler is not a waste of space as a backup heler. The mobs will go down much quicker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, i have solo healed in most of the highlevel content and that works ok also, sometimes though its fun as hell just debuffing doing damage and not care about MT health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note: I must say that in my early forties I felt kind of gimped as a defiler but now at 49 I most certantly do not feel gimped at all and have no worries taking solo heal responsibilities for a group.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Having a Templar/inquisitor in the group with a defiler just means that nobody is the backup healer. You ward debuff and dot while the cleric uses reactive heals and you both do touch up healing (especially with wards and reactives being used). With a good tank this group setup is rock solid and there isn't much in the the level range of the group that will wipe the group. The only real time we become true backup healers is when there is another defiler in the group. 1 is the main healer using wards and heals while the other debuffs, dots, and patch heals.</DIV>

[SisBoomB]

At level 40, I find being the sole healer in a group to be generally tedious. I don't know why some defilers have zero problems what-so-ever playing the lone healer, but I do and it's not because I do not know how to play my character. I think this may be attributable to the fact that I almost always play in random pick-up groups. Many defilers contend that this a challenging archtype to play, more so than others such as templars and inquisitors. Defilers have to change their already complicated spell sequence to match whatever encounter they run up against. Random groups are not conducive to this kind of play. An overeager scout or mage drawing aggro or a sudden case of the fizzles is all it takes to throw our game plan out of whack, and random players only exacerbate these situations.I suspect that defilers, or maybe shaman in general, might be the most difficult priests to play especially if they are not apart of a regular group of players (such as friends or guildies). This may be where the preceived weakness of the defiler comes from. I think other priest archtypes are better suited to handle random groups because other priests are intuitively easier to play.

[sostrows]

<P>Great point.</P> <P>From my previous post, Defilers are very offensive set of abilities whereas Templars tend to focus on protection.  I find it mentally a challenge to shift from "solo" or "dual" mode where I'm the DPS and in skull crushing mode where I'm nailing mobs with endless debuffs to sitting back in a 6 person grp and throwing 1 debuff (STA) or 2 debuffs then pretty much devoting 90% of my time/attention to protecting grp members.  My bezerker dual partner has the same trouble when he shifts to being MT in a grp of 6 against orange^^ mobs as he wants to max his DPS vs going more defensive (shield vs dual wield etc).</P> <P>I definately like it best when the group has 2 healers, and I backup the MH.  I usally tell the MH I will take care of grp detox for noxious and I will tell the MH which DPS persons in the grp I will heal if needed.  So I normally end up being responsible to heal the DPS members which allows the MH to keep all his options open for healing the MT.  This splits the duty up fairly well and really works well with a INQ, because it allows them to debuff also if they only worry about the MT.</P> <P>With pickup grps, I like to warm up on easy mobs and I support my MT 100% in telling other grp members to hold off the nukes till the MT can lock in good aggro.  DPS grp members who constantly make a "game" out of trying to get aggro from the MT p*ss me off and if they do it too much I will let them die.  It's easy to tell the ones who are ignoring the tank's messages.  I grp with a good/excellent tanks about 99% of the time so I can't comment too well on the bad tank scenario.</P> <P> </P>

[markdevox]

<P>I play a fury and my fiancee plays a defiler.  I figure between us we made the two worse choices for priest classes healingwise.  Oddly enough though we both really love playing our classes.</P> <P>I don't know which is worse, defiler or fury.. we both find it difficult sometimes.  She's a few levels below me but her direct heals are on a par with/slightly better than mine.  She gets wards, I get HoTs.  But ultimately we both look at other priest classes and think "bah" a little bit.</P> <P>Hopefully the long overdue rebalancing of priests will ensure that ALL priests are on even pegging as per the original posts back in November 2004 where we were all told by the devs that the beauty of an archetype system was that each subclass would perform its main role equally well.</P> <P>Good luck guys, hope we all get some TLC from SOE sometime soon.</P>

[Mortakai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> markdevox wrote:<BR> <P>I play a fury and my fiancee plays a defiler.  I figure between us we made the two worse choices for priest classes healingwise.  Oddly enough though we both really love playing our classes.</P> <P>I don't know which is worse, defiler or fury.. we both find it difficult sometimes.  She's a few levels below me but her direct heals are on a par with/slightly better than mine.  She gets wards, I get HoTs.  But ultimately we both look at other priest classes and think "bah" a little bit.</P> <P>Hopefully the long overdue rebalancing of priests will ensure that ALL priests are on even pegging as per the original posts back in November 2004 where we were all told by the devs that the beauty of an archetype system was that each subclass would perform its main role equally well.</P> <P>Good luck guys, hope we all get some TLC from SOE sometime soon.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, Defiler and Fury is a good combination.  I spent just about all of my time grouping with a fury (the same fury) between lvls 20 to 48 (november 2004 to march 2005). I have never had any problems with a fury being secondary healer. The only time my group has wiped has been because I was afk and the fury had to take over the heals or because of some [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] zone bug. Fury does get kind of shafted on the healing aspect but does make up for it with the dps (Duo with a guardian, Trust me, have the fiance duo with a berserker). If the 2 of you are in the same group all the time then you shouldn't even be thinking about how your class is gimped or underpowered or whatever, you should be a solid healing force. If the future Mrs. is playing the class right you should be scoffing at the idea of other priest classes in general. All in all, Defilers are the one priest class that really doesn't need much balancing because we're a solid class as is (aside from our HP buff being broken). 3/4 of all defilers are crying about crap that they shouldn't so don't even bother reading the defiler forums just have your future Mrs. play her class upgrade her spells and you'll have a blast. (Also make sure she debuffs before she starts healing, you should be able to keep up with the heals for 10 seconds or so while she's debuffing) If she thinks she is a gimped priest class tell her to /tell steamfont.mortakaie and I will gladly re-educate her because I'm tired of all of these crybabies whining about the defiler class.</P>

[markdevox]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mortakai wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> markdevox wrote:<BR> <P>I play a fury and my fiancee plays a defiler.  I figure between us we made the two worse choices for priest classes healingwise.  Oddly enough though we both really love playing our classes.</P> <P>I don't know which is worse, defiler or fury.. we both find it difficult sometimes.  She's a few levels below me but her direct heals are on a par with/slightly better than mine.  She gets wards, I get HoTs.  But ultimately we both look at other priest classes and think "bah" a little bit.</P> <P>Hopefully the long overdue rebalancing of priests will ensure that ALL priests are on even pegging as per the original posts back in November 2004 where we were all told by the devs that the beauty of an archetype system was that each subclass would perform its main role equally well.</P> <P>Good luck guys, hope we all get some TLC from SOE sometime soon.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, Defiler and Fury is a good combination.  I spent just about all of my time grouping with a fury (the same fury) between lvls 20 to 48 (november 2004 to march 2005). I have never had any problems with a fury being secondary healer. The only time my group has wiped has been because I was afk and the fury had to take over the heals or because of some [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] zone bug. Fury does get kind of shafted on the healing aspect but does make up for it with the dps (Duo with a guardian, Trust me, have the fiance duo with a berserker). If the 2 of you are in the same group all the time then you shouldn't even be thinking about how your class is gimped or underpowered or whatever, you should be a solid healing force. If the future Mrs. is playing the class right you should be scoffing at the idea of other priest classes in general. All in all, Defilers are the one priest class that really doesn't need much balancing because we're a solid class as is (aside from our HP buff being broken). 3/4 of all defilers are crying about crap that they shouldn't so don't even bother reading the defiler forums just have your future Mrs. play her class upgrade her spells and you'll have a blast. (Also make sure she debuffs before she starts healing, you should be able to keep up with the heals for 10 seconds or so while she's debuffing) If she thinks she is a gimped priest class tell her to /tell steamfont.mortakaie and I will gladly re-educate her because I'm tired of all of these crybabies whining about the defiler class.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's the shame of it, we only have 1 PC so we can't both play at the same time in the same group.  I've grouped with defilers lots of times and yup it's an awesome combo.

[VizP]

Correct me if Im wrong about reactive heals but do they not require the target to be 'hit'? If a defiler wards the MT and then the cleric sticks on his reactices, his reactives won't actually do anything. Considering defilers can do a huge amount more than a cleric in terms of the fights (debuffs, dots etc)  In a cleric-shaman combination, should the shaman not refrain from using wards until it is obvious that the cleric reactives are not going to keep the MT alive and focus on debuffs and DPS until the flow needs to push for wards? As I said, if we ward and clerics cant use reactives they are left to debuff and direct heal too which we actually in 'both' do better (people don't usually believe we get the better direct heal later but we do, check info). It seems druid-shaman work best in that regens work with wards but then you can't always expect the druid to be any good.. case in point yesterday in Nek Castle when the MT was on his last legs while the fury still had 25% of his health left. I actually had to use my manastone to get back power to save him and was wondering why the heck healers ever allow that to happen.. let people die with much power remaining. It may be important to note that this same fury had full power for most fights i.e if the fight is relatively fast why should I cast? The mentality being if there is nothing to heal I won't actually cast any sort of offence spell no matter the fact I am one of the most offensive healers. The beauty of random grouping, voila. <div></div>

[sostrows]

<P>I was in Lavastorm last nite dualing with my partner (43 zerker) and he was barely getting hit in melee by the white^^ molten fragments or the lavastorm crawlers (both gave 1.3% xp per kill btw for us dualing them).</P> <P>In this case, I don't use my wards as my primary means of keeping the tank alive.  If his armor is mitigating the attacks (or he has reactive armor/spells on him) then our wards are not as attractive mana-wise to use.  In this case I would use the individual ward then the group ward, the tank would let my mana tick to full then he would pull as i hit it with Atrophy (main STA debuff) then a PP HO (priest only HO) using Suppuration then the Vile Imprecation lvl 40 training upgrade spell.  Hit it with Loathing, then 2nd PP HO.  After then 2nd HO, i would call "FP" which is fighter-priest HO and use Fetid Balm and Sacraficial Alleviation to complete that HO.  Throw on Fulginous Coil, Umbral Trap.</P> <P>The only time I would throw a ward on him after the start was if he was ~30% HP and I wanted ward/heal combo to get him back over 50%.</P>

[klawdite]

<P>I used to think I was the WORST healer ever. Not because I'm actually horrible at what I do.. it's just I run out of mana entirely too fast, because wards don't last as long at my level, even though mine is adept 3, I'm constantly spamming wards.</P> <DIV>I played with a Coercer the other day and that helped a great deal, we had about 2 or 3 double up arrow adds, and I hardly ran out of mana, and nobody died.. of course without his power buffs we would have all perished before the first mob fell <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either they need to lower the mana cost, or make the wards just a LITTLE better, because I can't hardly ever be main healer unless the tank is way higher than me.. and the mobs we're killing are much lower level than he/she is.</DIV>

[VizP]

Ill tell you something I have noticed... people seem to wander around with very poor equipment more often than not. I grouped with a fury in Nek Castle yesterday, she was two levels above me and yet both her power and health was less than mine! I have 110 Wis and I have nice equipment but I havent gone out of my way to get it.. just normal adventuring. I usually have more than enough power but I would really advise a manastone.. a defilers best friend, for that extra boost. <div></div>

[Gridpoet]

<DIV>I personally dont think Defielers are "broken" by any stretch of the imagination. about the only thing i would like to see is some love given to our wards post 25-27. As it stands right now, wards are a spamfest. They just dont seem to be scaling properly up through the levels. Other than a few minor spell fixes, Defilers stand as a powerful and effective class.</DIV>

[Fredric]

I know the game isn't all about raiding but I'll just let you know, that you <STRONG><EM>need</EM></STRONG> a defiler for every epic raid.

[VizP]

<div></div>The problem Gridpoet is that people that can't play a class properly blame the class and simply will not admit they are not using the abilities to their full potential. Months back defilers needed a lot of help and SOE slowly but surely started fixing broken spellls one by one. At this point we are in very good shape to say the least but thsoe that played them when they were broken refuse to look back at the class and see how they are doing and those that are playing atm and can't get to grisp with what is arguably the most complex healer class will happily blame the class rather themselves. Because of this people seem to believe shamans are the most broken classes in the game without knowing a single thing about defilers. Our wards will probably get strengthened in future balancing and suddenly we will be hailed as healer kings even though only one aspect of our game will be changed - this is human nature. Until then as healers we have no problems getting groups so we should just join each one and show them just how unbroken defilers are. Problem though is that for every one of us, there is another defiler making a dogs breakfast of it all and happily blaming it on SOE. You won't believe my stories of healers from every group and how they play the class in random groups.. one wonders how the heck they ever made it this far into their 30s! Yes our wards need to be stronger but before that we are a wonderful class. <div></div><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<DIV>Level 50 now and still loving my Defiler.  Yes, SOE has fixed alot of things for the better and with the upcoming (when it comes) priest balancing we will hopefully see our  wards strengthened.  Now that Im raiding I rarely use them save for Purulence for the dps.  I am kinda saddened that I cant use one of my defining traits on the MT but I do indeed use it on the dps classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To say that there are NO problems and that people simply don't know how to play their class is quite foolish imho.  Get to the 40's and see if your saying the same thing.  This game is still full of bugs, broken content etc. for MANY classes, not just Defilers.  In fact the upcoming "preist balance" is pretty much an admission by SOE that there are issues and imbalances that need to be addressed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my Defiler and play her well.  So far no other class has even come close to the fun I have playing her for me...and that's PRECISELY why I want to see the issues corrected or at least balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace out.</DIV>

[LokiHellsson]

<DIV>I play an Inquisitor.   Level 37.  I absolutely love it when a Defiler's in the group with me if we're going after stuff above our level.  It makes my healing job so much easier.  If there's going to be two healers in  a group, it's silly to have two Inquisitors or Templars.  I don't notice much when Furies or Wardens or Mystic's are in the group, but I seriously notice Defilers.  My job becomes simple.  I just keep my reactives up and they stay up for a long time because of the wards and seriously weakend monsters.  I start using my debuffs because it looks like we won't need all my power just to keep the tank in the yellow.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Never said we had no problems Broomhilda - all classes have these some much worse than others. You need to realise that people seem to believe defilers are completely broken and can't heal worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], some of this actually conveyed by defilers themselves. So yes we need some loving but the impression that is being conveyed to other classes is that we are useless. Are we useless? This is happening because some defilers are being played by players that can't play a class that requires a lot of understanding of spell versatility and then can't be full use in groups. ---- Do some of our spells need tweaking? Sure. But then which classes doesn't? Do we have broken spells? Yes - a community list has been gathered and they are fixing them patch by patch! Do our wards need strengthening? Of course and more than likely will occur. Are we broken? No. Are we poor healers? No. Are we secondary healers? No BUT when complimented with another healer it allows us to use more of our toys! Do we have the best DPS of any healer class in game? Hell yes. Do we have the best sta debuffs in game and thus are a MUST in raids? YES Do we have the best slows in game? YES - argument is only against our shaman counterparts. If not effective enough will be after balancing. Do are buffs make a significant difference to group? It is hard to put in to words honestly - YES! Are we versatile? One of the most versatile priest classes - DOTS, Debuffs, Buffs, DDs, Wards, Proc Wards, Proc Buffs... etc etc Are our direct heals worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? - YES: Info: We have the fastest heal in the game and at the end game our best DIRECT heal heals more than the templar alternative - check it. Are we arguably one of the best soloers in game? Yes - and we all know this means a lot in a game when random grouping is not always the wisest option. --- Arguments more than welcome but a clear summary of why the defiler is a wonderful class. Extra note: We are the best class to use a manastone - the stone drains wards and wards use less power in direct heals. I can ward myself and then use my manastone to get back most of that power in a second. Use at close to start of fight and keep on repeating and we are talking scores of extra power in a fight. The most amusing thing is that the above looks like a checklist of an overpowered class. We are not overpowered lol by a longshot considering most people think we are 'broken' but this is an example of how many deflers that trash the class openly and say we are useless don't have even have an idea of how to play them. End Note: I look forward to fixes to our broken spells, of fixing those spells that don't do much or are flaws (check community lists) and most importantly fixing our wards. But until then I am loving it! <p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 AM</span>

[Drfeelgood0]

<P>For those who dont know, VizP and Dcpunk are the 2 biggest defiler's fanboys on these forums, their argumentation is quite simple : people who dont agree with them  either :</P> <P>1/ have bad gear </P> <P>2/ dont know how to play a defiler  ( everyone knows that playing a defiler require an IQ of 180 )</P> <DIV>3/ or both </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I've got some news for you, if you press ALT + M, you will have the maintained spells window. Just do it before you ward your tank and check how many seconds you ward stay up ? ( I'm talking about T5 mobs ) , at best 2 seconds !!!  If you don't call that a broken class, I don t know what it is . Either SOE have to add twice more HP in each of our ward if they want to keep them <STRONG>before</STRONG> tank mitigation, or keep the same amount of HP but calculate it <STRONG>after</STRONG> tank mitigation because actually warding a tank is just a waste of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And once you hit 50, do like I do at the moment, roll a templar and see the difference by yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vandessa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drfeelgood012 wrote:<BR> <P>For those who dont know, VizP and Dcpunk are the 2 biggest defiler's fanboys on these forums, their argumentation is quite simple : people who dont agree with them  either :</P> <P>1/ have bad gear </P> <P>2/ dont know how to play a defiler  ( everyone knows that playing a defiler require an IQ of 180 )</P> <DIV>3/ or both </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I've got some news for you, if you press ALT + M, you will have the maintained spells window. Just do it before you ward your tank and check how many seconds you ward stay up ? ( I'm talking about T5 mobs ) , at best 2 seconds !!!  If you don't call that a broken class, I don t know what it is . Either SOE have to add twice more HP in each of our ward if they want to keep them <STRONG>before</STRONG> tank mitigation, or keep the same amount of HP but calculate it <STRONG>after</STRONG> tank mitigation because actually warding a tank is just a waste of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And once you hit 50, do like I do at the moment, roll a templar and see the difference by yourself. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>If you base a Defiler solely on the basis of the ammount of damage they can stop with a ward then you are only looking at the surface of how a Defiler operates.  There are many more ways to save a parties' collective tail besides spaming a ward - buffs, stamina debuff opener nukes, dots, ward stacking and spot heals.   I happen to agree with DCpunk and VizP, so I guess add me to the Zealot list.  If you wanted to be a straight up healer, stick with your templar. Else learn how to play a defiler as it was meant to -  and being a spam healer is not it.

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>To be honest I knew this very early when I saw the defiler complaints - most of these are focussed just on the power of the ward and how quick they fall. These guys simply are not using anywhere near enough of their arsenal and then are complaining wildly resulting in the reputation of shamans being the worst healers when we are anything but. The wards will be increased and as I keep saying these same guys will suddenly dance and enjoy then of being back in a 'fixed' class - for them defilers are totally broken only due to the mitigation issue of the wards and will refuse to try and explore the use of other spells which really do need some thought and experience to realise their benefits. I understand what Broomhilda said about it being sad we can't use our wards on raids because they fall so fast but I am sure that will be solved in the balancing. It is not a case of an IQ of 180 needed to play a defiler as Feelgood suggests I have impled before but the mere fact Feelgood compares us to templars does shed a lot of light on the fact he can't look beyond the direct heals and wards. And also that these defiler complainers will never argue on any points we bring on our strengths and tactics - because they of course can't dispute them but they won't simply go and use them and see what difference it makes. Stubborness is a human trait but there is no reason to come here and admit you were wrong.. one simply asks you go and use all weapons we have on our arsenal as intended and see what happens! And then just go on and enjoy the class - but a refusal to do this and then rubbish the class is pretty below the belt. Simply  the difference the buffs, debuffs and anything else we bring seem negligable to the falling wards he sees and I have observed this more often than you can believe, some shamans that do not cast much of anything except heals and wards not realising that the weaker wards need a lot of assistance from all the other assets we have to make us a firm and strong healer. As stated previously numerous times, defilers could use tweaking like any other class - I understand that, our broken spells in the community list are being fixed per patch and the wards are more than ikely to be fixed on balancing. But at present we more than hold our own and if you can't as a defiler and will happily trash the class stating we are a third in the priest listings, you honestly do not know what you are talking about. Notice how he made no reference to my list  - I happily welcomed arguments on what I was incorrect on and he pointed out the one thing I knew - wards are weak. I have in this thread and the priest thread gone into detail on why along with DC and no one has bothered to argue these points. I don't see the point of being stubborn about this - if you can't play the class play a cleric but for heavens sake don't rubbish the class beyond what is reasonable. There are many threads here on tactics, use of spells and how we are appreciated by other classes (see post by a tamplar in this very thread and how he feels he notices the most significant difference with a defiler partner over all other priests!) before further fixing and ward balancing. Yes wards fall too fast and yes it is not reasonable. That in itself makes us far from broken considering everything else we have but as far as these complainers would say, we have nothing else. And that speaks 'volumes'. <p>Heres the biggest question - if we are so completely broken, why are some of us happily playing along and indicating how well we are doing? There are people here way above their 40s that are doing well - are indicating issues but are pointing out how we are still incredibly useful as a class. Are they lying? It makes no sense why someone would be unhappy with their class but would come on the forums and indicate things are not as bad as people say - if they believed these issues, they would echo them.</p> <p>So then from pure logic, if the class is nowhere near as broken as some claim, then what does that mean for the players that are playing them? I don't know what else there is to say but this is an age old thing that has and will be a mainstay of all MMOs. I speak voumes by my mere actions in every group I take part in. And there is nothing else I can do - I love it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But only one thing is asked - apart from appreciating defilers need some tweaks and ward fixing, if you as a person Feelgood are unable to play a defiler and heal a group properly and have gone so far to roll another healer please just admit that it is a case of this class not being for you rather than the class simply being broken. You are doing no one any favours whatsoever - esp when there are lvl 50 defilers right here that admit that even with issues we are more than an asset in any group (and 'required' in raids). <span class="time_text"></span> </p> <p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[sostrows]

<P>Add me to the zealot list also then.</P> <P>I am a "<U>protector</U>".  <STRONG><U>Healing is only 1 part of my toolbag</U></STRONG>.  I have wards, buffs, debuffs, DOT and heals to protect my tank.  My Defiler is a very offensive oriented priest that protects his tank by helping the mob fall faster than say as Templar, Warden or Mystic who's abilities focus more on increasing the abilities of the group to withstand punishment.  My abilities focus on reducing the abilities of a mob to damage my party much like the Fury and INQ.  My Defiler is a very complex class that requires juggling my concentration between sticking mob debuffs and keeping the group alive.  Good healers get to focus almost all their attention on the group (which does not resist their spells).</P> <P>Here is a key question that this thread keeps turning around -----</P> <P>---- how much damage should a ward be able to absorb????????  -----</P> <P>I think against a solo green mob, the personal ward should pretty much last the full 35sec +/- a few seconds if the mob is debuffed and about 20 sec if you have not slapped the debuffs on it.</P> <P>Now if you're in a full grp and you are fighting orange^^ mobs, do you really expect to be able to throw a ward up every 30 seconds and that's it to protect your tank?  Maybe you expect to watch Seinfeld and drink a soda while you spam a ward every 20 seconds?  You could heal that way in EQOA but EQ2 does not work that way.  I don't know how EQLive and EQ1 worked but the grinding of mobs that was the hallmark of EQOA does not work in this game.</P> <P>Can a Templar expect to keep a MT fully healed against a orange^^ mob with just one of his minor heal abilities?  I don't know, but I highly doubt it.</P> <P>The way the game is designed with the con system is huge, if you are taking on HERIOC (= group required) encounters, it means its a <U>GROUP</U> effort which usually means a single "protector"'s capabilities is not enough.  You either need to supplement the protection with a 2nd priest, or add more DPS to take the mob down sooner, or have a very buffed tank that other group members throw their buffs on (Harbringer series on tank instead of Defiler etc).  Maybe you use the Paladin who is a DPS in your group to act as the secondary protector with his heals.</P> <P>Now I totally aggree that currently our wards are underpowered in the 40+ situations.  I like your ideas Drfeelgood012 about either applying ward after mitigation or increasing ward strength or at least fixing bug where extra mob damage spills over the ward to the tank UNMITIGATED and these ideas have been posted on countless threads on Defiler and Mystic boards.</P> <P>Oh and btw, my Zerker prefers a shaman as the MH as he likes the wards preventing interrupts.  He says he just feels safer with a shaman than waiting for reactives to kick in.   He likes to see his health always in the green, which makes him feel warm and fuzzy inside.  And a happy MT, means good times.  We were dualing blue/white^^ mobs in Lavastorm the other night and my Carrion Shield was staying up about 8-10sec after I had slapped my debuffs on the mob.  So the combination of my wards+debuffs = no damage to tank on a white^^ dualing.  Not bad.</P>

[VizP]

<div></div>Sostrows said: '  My Defiler is a very complex class that requires juggling my concentration between sticking mob debuffs and keeping the group alive. ' --- I have stated this so many times before but those that complain about defilers refuse to admit that we are easily one of the most complex healing classes there is. It is right here that the problem lies - when one takes a class and looks at it in a simplistic way, one will end up ignoring pretty much everything that is beyond that 'simple scope' (in this case wards being the only thing beneath the scope). And then when those very same wards do not last very long, it results in the class being broken. It is very simple yet very unfortunate that people with this mentality are playing the class but nor realising what they are doing. The issue brought up on length of wards is amusing - I would go so far and wager that even after balancing we will have people complaining about ward strength because the very same people that state we are completely broken now are the same people that will later use wards without once more using any of our other assets. Which will result in our wards once more falling faster than they should. And so they will once again preach defilers are 'still' broken! Simple rule if you as a defiler are having problems with your class. Either post on these forums how you tend to fight and one of the kind players here will indicate what 'they' are doing which 'you' are not doing and thus you can learn and improve yourself. If you will not do this in pure arrogance or stubborness because you feel things are so simple that you need no assistance and it is in fact the class, then please go play something else. If you still go out on a limb to state how poor defilers are, it really is a shameful display. As stated, if anyone has thoughts on tactics strategies to ease problems of wards dropping and just what it is we do so well, there are threads already here on tactics and feel free to post others to query. Everyone is more than happy to discuss, everyone is rather unhappy to meet people that won't discuss and have decided to simply state we are broken due to one issue. I guess the number of 'fanboys' (or zealots which has been taken down as a little more mature)  are increasing huh? What happens when the number of people actually are more content thant he people complaining? Do we then lose that title and what title do the complainers gain? See this is where the title of 'poor player' was suggested a while back but once more a simple admission one may not be doing all one can as a defiler was not forthcoming. <div></div><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 AM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<DIV>>>>So yes we need some loving but the impression that is being conveyed to other classes is that we are useless<<<</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, I dont think anyone here said that.  My post was initially about healing ability because in case you want to beleive this or not...when groups are formulated and theres a healer spot to be filled thats what is taken into account.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont need anyone to tell me what defilers have to offer, or what spells we have at our disposal...I think everyone on a "Defiler" thread would know this.  My main beef is and will always be (until its fixed) that one of our "defining" traits is ineffective on the higher end of the game.  Now none of the recent responses provide an adventure level of the poster...I will say this though...if you under 40 I dont wanna hear from you on this one.  Its been said ad nauseum that defiler issues come to a head post 40.  Up until that I time I thought I was awesome too.  WHen you see your wards break in one hit, the mob resist every debuff and you have to spam your direct heals constantly you will understand.  Until then, you simply wont and this conversation is moot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Insofar as your "checklist" of defiler attributes, those are mostly subjective. I have seen Furies nuke like casters, mystics solo exceptionally, etc. so to state we are the best a these things is simply an exaggeration.  Oh yeah, as per your logic Vzip if your a defiler and CANT do all these things better than anyone else, you dont know how to play your class!  Phulesse~!  Im not looking to be the "best" and quite frankly I could care less.  I just want my ward to stay up for more than one swipe!  That to me is Broken!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>that is being conveyed to other classes is that we are useless --- This was in reference to peopels opinions in general - if you would kindly just look outside this thread, the forums and in game, people are under the impression that we are the healer to take when there is absolutely no one else. Is that what you wish people to think? I have absolutely no idea why you are arguing with me - I ahve already started we need fixes like every other class and I hope very much to see wards strengthened.  What else is it you want us to say? That we are in fact so broken that no one should play us? Because those are the people I am trying to argue against and you are for some reason attempting to argue the very posts that are set to inspire wannabe defilers to play the class! Arrogance at lvl 50 means nothing to me and really I have no idea what the heck you are saying except repeating again and again your wards fall in one swipt at lvl 50 and that means you're broken. You say you don't want to hear from me but as a high lvl player it seems you have very little to say outside that do you. You truly are an inpsiration to us all. I don't care if you want to hear from me Broomhilda as Im in my late 30s  but this very thread from the start allows a new defiler to contemplate the notion they may be the worst healer in the game from its very title - very poorly thought out with little consideration when people are sometimes highly influenced by forum messages. You are doing no one any favours whatsoever especially when the average player takes a long time to get into their 40s since the majority are casual to modate players by which time most of these high level issues will be fixed. Everyone is aware of the issues you presented at end game, but people are now believing that defilers are of no use at any level - once more take a look at the shaman forum, the priest form and ask any random joe on your server. Thank you for that. Yes wards are broken at 50 yes they fall in one swipe. Ahem excuse me but my voice matters because your title says 'are we the worst healers in the game' your opinions please - and if my opinion does not count, it means the only real person with an opinion on whether we are a decent healer is someone between 40 and 50. And that hardly makes sense when the majority of people are below that. Wow... Anyone want to agree with Broomhilda, walk around with a poster on our head stating 'broken' because wards drop in a second at lvl 50? Anyone? We are 'broken' and thats the end of that and how dar I argue it being in my late 30s, I dont have an opinion until Im in our 40s and even if I did then, the simple fact wards break fast means we are 'broken'. Arguments like this surely hold all the water flowing over the Niagra Falls over the one second a ward would last right? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ----- Whats that little Joey? You want to play a defiler but are worried they are broken? Well Grandma Broomhilda here says they are broken yes! You don't want to play a broken class Joey? Oh dear well then go play a templar. 'under breath - what Joey doesn't know is that these issues occur post 40, we are still very useful and these wards are likely be sorted during this summer. Tee hee one less defiler Im so clever. Lets hope he tells his friends!' ----<p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>loL!  So it's MY fault that people think defilers are useless (and imo I dont think people do at all)! Oh thats funny! You know what Vzip? If people do beleive we are broken and usless its partly due to weak wards and highly resisted debuffs!  I am not being arrogant kid, Im keeping it real! I got to 50 the long hard way and I dont need you to tell me a dam thing about the class that I love! But quite frankly, if players like you had it your way, NOTHING would be fixed with our dam class! We would still be in the same shape as the start of this game! It was people like me, and several others that took these issues public and got CHANGES FOR THE BETTER MADE! So put that in your pipe and smoke it!  Get to a level where we can talk about this as adults dear.</P></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>05-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:19 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Vandessa]

<P>I also wonder why you are taking a lot of the thread responses here so personaly Broomhilda. The latest round of responses was a particularly hostile pot-shot vs DCpunk and VizP by drfeelgood, nothing really to do with you. /shrug. </P> <P>I'm glad you want some personal information but you might as well accept that this thread due to the title and the nature of the discussion is not all about what you want to know or prove yourself  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Broomhilda]

Im not taking anything personal.  If you want to see it that way, please do.  The thread was brought up to stimulate discussion.  Instead it brought out anger and resentment against people trying to get thier class improved.  Go figure?

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I don't know what her problem is - in every single one of my posts in my forums I have: 1/ Admitted wards need fixing - it is a PRIORITY, there are great suggestions in terms of mitigation and I am pretty sure SOE have thought of this in priest balancing, we need it for sure. 2/ Admitted we have broken spells, the community list is a wonderful guide and they ar efixinf them one by one. I have also said that yes we need tweaking.. we have three water breathing spells for example and what the heck is the proc on Abominus? Just one example of many but then all classes have these. 3/ Indicated we can more than pull our weight and tried to inspire people wanting to play a defiler that: a/ we are very fun to play and are wonderful soloers b/ we are a great asset to groups and have a lot to bring at all levels c/ we are one of the most complex priest classes and it is important to learn the importance of all spells. ---- May I ask what I did wrong? The only thing I will NOT do is state we are broken because wards fall fast pro 40. Because broken indicates a class that simply is not of use and even pro 40 with wards falling fast we are still of much use from all I have heard. Yes I amin my late 30s, I am not in the 40 period but that doesn't mean I dont have an opinion.. people in their late 30s are not newbies. From lvl 40 to 50 everyone understands wards have issues for heavens sake and everyone knows that will be fixed too! So what the heck is all this about? Im not going to stop persuading new players to try a defiler because we currently are a wonderful class and later we will be even stronger post patch at higher lvls. It seems people agree with me and to be honest I would love to know what 'lie' it is I am spinning. Broomhilda stimulating discussion does not mean a requirement of an admission by people adding to the discussion that they are broken because you feel so when wards drop quickly later and they don't agree that is enough to deem us currently 'broken'. Nor does it mean that this discussion is only for post 40 players when your title asks whether the class has problems generally and believe it or not there are lvls before 40 when defilers are still 'defilers'. You may have had intentions to discuss the class but had no intentions of allowing new players to see the positive sides of the class and the positive future we have (especially when your very title was asking for both postiive and negative input at all levels!) and that really is very unfortunate but what is worse is that you attacked me for doing it. Does my stating positive things of defilers hurt you in some way? Because stating positive things does not mean we will not be fixed or our spells will not be improved - they will. All it does is it shows new players that there a lot of light at the end of the tunnel regardless of the wards and issues we have which EVERYONE agrees exist! Stating positive things does NOT mean we are completely content. It does however highlight what we are good at to inspire people who are at lower levels and want to play this class and to show other classes we are a great addition to their group regardless... SOE know we need help they are fixing us per patch and will in the priest balancing. And saying what we are good at hardly changes this except inspiring people to play. I love my class, I want more people to play it, I will admit wards needs strengthening and that we need some tweaking but I will NOT stop saying what we are great at. <div></div><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 PM</span>

[Vandessa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broomhilda wrote:<BR>Im not taking anything personal.  If you want to see it that way, please do.  The thread was brought up to stimulate discussion.  Instead it brought out anger and resentment against people trying to get thier class improved.  Go figure? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't see why you preseve our lifiting of our class abilites as anger or resentment, frankly I see it more from the have not side than the have.  Yeah our wards need tweaking. But you keep ignoring that your title says 'worst healers in the game'. Maybe if you altered it to <EM>'Do Defilers really need our end-game wards extended for better functionality? Please Discuss.</EM>'  Might have generated a wholy different outcome and feel.</P> <P>And furthermore, saying 'Don't tell me how to play my class' about our posts when our responses were directed towards another poster entirely certainly seems like you are taking this a wee bit too personaly.</P> <P>'In the game' refers to a games entire span. Up to 45, we are pretty darn good at what we can do, yeah at the very end our wards need tweaking some - sure. But equating that to the entire play expereince is a bit wrong and most folks will preceieve that thread title statement as such.</P> <P>I know many folks that tend to Diss me for groups by saying 'sure you suck, don't you read your own forum?'.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>Re-eductating so many folk has been quite the pain in the [farrbot].</P>

[Broomhilda]

<P>The title was posed as a question...not a statement.  A question to bring up some dicussion.  Apparently it only succeeded to bring out trolls.  Trolls with insufficient experience in the high end of the game.</P> <P>I think Ill have to agree to disagree with the "zealots" of this thread.  But remeber, when you see a defiler "fix" posted in the test and update forums, please remember that you had NOTHIING to do with that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Sorry dear, but the times I have heard people complain about defilers...they had past experineces grouping with them.  :p</P> <P>Peace out!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>This is the upsetting part about it Vandessa - I had a friend who told me shamans 'sucked' (this was when we were in out late 20s too) and all based on what he had read about our wards. You see, when people like Broomhilda post issues on wards and threads starting we are the worst healers, people are simply taking it as from the very second we are defilers. So people are now in picking groups thinking of defilers as their last choices from the moment they become a shaman! And so the fact we fly all the way to 45 means nothing.. everyone thinks we don't because of this huge production of our end game and people read things on forums and take it seriously. Are our wards amazing in our 20s and early 30s? Yes? Do people thinkt hat? No. Why? take a guess. If you think this sort of 'viewpoint' is an overstatement ask some people at lower levels their opinions on defilers. They will generalise and all they ahve heard are poor things. These higher level complainers make no effort whatsoever to state what we excel at, widely focus on the ward issue post 40 (even with the knowledge they know fixes are on the way), widely focus on the fact we have some spell issues (who doesnt!) and they get angry when people say what we are good at. And they know that most defilers are not even at those levels! You know what - Im in my late 30s and the server info tells me that there have been only 40 other defilers in the history of my server that have even passed me by. Most people are at lower levels - if one wants to express what defilers are like, logically the lower levels which theya are playing at would be the first focal point! And did you just say we rock there Broomhilda? I really don't know what all this is about - its bad enough when uninformed people in other classes feel we are not good (until they group with a good defiler and are informed) but its much worse when high lvl defilers do this. Its like being stabbed from within for no good reason. People get this bad idea of us, group with a good defiler and they are then shown that we are not. But it should not be like this - we simply are at a decent enough level for most of our careers to not have a bad rep! So I was trying to fix this and apparently I should not have? Broomhilda says I am a troll and not even a high level troll. Thank you for that - I wont dignify that with a response, Ill let other people make their own judgements of what I am trying to do and what shes trying to do. Remember friends, if you are a defiler and you inspire other defilers to play, if there is a fix you won't responsible for that. You see according to her you see you can't say positive things about a class while being quite clear of the problems your class has. I say positive things about my class as well as admit we have ward issues and spells need tweaking. But you see I am not 'allowed' to do that! Oh no, either you say positive things and thus are against fixes or you like Broomhilda will only say negative things and thus be the only one responsible for fixes. Arn't you glad for people like her making sure our class are fixed guys? **Note I got one starred for this post by a high lvl defiler for saying positive things about the class and agreeing to everything she said about the high end game about weak wards but refusing to say we were 'broken'. I guess I am stubborn that way huh? You see I have read posts of high lvl defilers on these forums and talked to them in game, inc my guild and they even with weak wards state we are very useful at the end game - they just hope our wards get fixed. Does that sound like broken to anyone?** <p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drfeelgood012 wrote:<BR> <P>For those who dont know, VizP and Dcpunk are the 2 biggest defiler's fanboys on these forums, their argumentation is quite simple : people who dont agree with them  either :</P> <P>1/ have bad gear </P> <P>2/ dont know how to play a defiler  ( everyone knows that playing a defiler require an IQ of 180 )</P> <DIV>3/ or both </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I've got some news for you, if you press ALT + M, you will have the maintained spells window. Just do it before you ward your tank and check how many seconds you ward stay up ? ( I'm talking about T5 mobs ) , at best 2 seconds !!!  If you don't call that a broken class, I don t know what it is . Either SOE have to add twice more HP in each of our ward if they want to keep them <STRONG>before</STRONG> tank mitigation, or keep the same amount of HP but calculate it <STRONG>after</STRONG> tank mitigation because actually warding a tank is just a waste of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And once you hit 50, do like I do at the moment, roll a templar and see the difference by yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Omg how could I have missed this post!  Wished I had seen this sooner I would not have bothered to even respond to them! I just checked some of the other threads in the priests forums and they are trolling there as well!  Same manner...attacking anyone that doesnt agree Defilers are Uber and Need no fixing!  tsk, tsk.  And telling people that they dont know how to play their class because they stand by the believe that Defilers deserve every chance at being the MH!  Vzip got so insulting he had to go back and erase parts of his post!  Ok I get it now.  lol!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes I am rolling a templar/Inquisitor as well!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:18 PM</span>

[sostrows]

<P>After having read the whole 4 pages of posts again (why am I doing this to myself),</P> <P>- we feel wards are underpowered or at least flawed in application (spillover unmitigated to tank by his armor etc)</P> <P>- no DEV or any MOD has ever posted here, so we<U><STRONG> cannot</STRONG> </U>assume this thread is responsible for any spell fixes / improvements.  there are ways to get the DEV attention but I got a feeling they tuned out of this thread before the end of page 1 when the attacks got personal.  i highly doubt this thread is responsible for any attention given to our class by the DEV.</P> <P>- there is a disagreement on how competent our class is (not the player's ability) in being the MH.</P> <P>- there is agreement that our class is complex requiring more skill than some other classes</P> <P>- there seems to be agreemnent that our class is very key to successful raids and is sought after for our debuffs.</P> <P>- there is alot of 1-star bandits nailing other people just because they have a different opinion.  The title of the thread does not say "Defilers - The Worst Healers in the Game? Your opinion please <U>only if your level 40+ and you aggree we are the worst healers</U>".</P> <P>- At this point, several people have gone past reasonable debate and are now not open to a discussion on this issue.  I don't know if its because "SOE said that every priest could be equal as a MH in a group" back in November and you still want it that way.  The guidebook also said that Sages would do ALL upgrade abilities (but they only do Priest/Mage right now - if you want to read a real negative greifing board - go to the Sage board).</P> <P>- Some are taking this personnal  What's with the attacks?</P> <P>*What else is there to say?  It's a freaking game.  You can't put "Lvl 50 Defiler" or "Saved my grp from 2 add grps" on your resume.  In 10 years, this game will be history and we'll be playing EQ3 or you'll be married or like me - you'll get sent to Iraq for 6 months and the last thing on my mind in 2004 was a video game.</P> <P>I'll talk to Blackguard when I see him at SOE Fan Faire next month.  Try to get the scivvy on which DEV is responsible for Defilers, maybe get us a hotline right to the source for Priest issues!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>If I knew the title of this thread had asked for post 40 people only I would not have posted. But as it is the question is posed to everyone that is a defiler and if anything this is more a question to those in their 20s to 30s since more defilers are there than post 40! Either way as you can see the OP never intended it to be a balanced discussion.. any posts not even intended towards her ended up offending her when simply asking for opinions. Still ah well looks like its wound down and to be honest any wanna be defilers looking at this thread are likely to make them on account of the fact those clear information was shown to our assets and why we really are a very valid and enjoyable class while those claiming we were 'broken' only pointed to post 40 ward issues which are likely to be fixed as a repeated tune and refused to counter all the great parts of our class very carefully listed and backed up! Wraps up nicely - hope you can get info from some devs, good luck to future defilers and as always if you have concerns we are more than happy to discuss positive and negative traits to this class just as long as everyone is happy to actually 'discuss'! I don't know what it is but apart from the post 40 ward issue and general tweaking agreement, people that are unhappy with defilers can't name any other issues of note but refuse to make any comments disagreeing on the long list of things we can do so well. That speaks volumes really. And to say we are a one-ward pony is an indication of the outlook of the player behind the class. <p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 PM</span>

[sostrows]

<DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by sostrows on <SPAN class=date_text>05-12-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:04 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Docimodo]

<DIV>I am amused...</DIV> <DIV>Wards imo are not broken...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I am level 50... yes I raid A LOT... yes I group A LOT and yes I solo A LOT...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our class is not 'broken'... one or two of our non critical spells are just a little iffy... but if you can't work around that then I dont know what to offer you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I cant wait for baleful efflux to be fixed... (Those of you who know of the ward/manastone technique will agree)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But don't mind me, carry on indeed, I like it when it comes to patch time and Im even <FONT color=#ff0033>MORE</FONT> powerful</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/cackles insanely</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly its gotten to the stage that if Im not at a raid it either a) fails or b) takes twice as long</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/slaps you non believers around the head...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What will it take? me revealing my every strategy? not likely to happen.</DIV>

[kildarn]

<DIV>I play both a defiler and a bruiser.  Yes ward needs some work.  I take that from both sides of the ward, caster and wearer.  However this "broken class" stuff is pure nonsense.  My defiler is decently equiped with nothing above an adept 1 spell.  She has absolutely no problem being a solo healer or a backup healer in a group.  She has even been the MH in a group with an equal level Inquisitor simply because "I was doing a great job at it".  IF the class as a whole was broken that could not and would not happen.  IF we were "the worst healer in the game" it would not be possible for me to be MH with ANY other healing class in the group.  So no, we are not the worst healers in the game.  We are very very capable of keeping a group healed just as well as any other class.  By healed I mean those little hp bars green on a full group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I play my bruiser I absolutely love for a defiler to be my healer.  Why?  Because of those broken wards and the not broken debuffs.  A bruiser tanks via avoidance not mitigation.  So when a defiler wards me, debuffs and slows the mob I'm in heaven.  My bruiser, who is pretty well equipped, can tank very well without a defiler.  You give me a defiler and I'll tank mobs that are red ^^ to me with no problem because I simply won't get hit.  The mob swings slower, already has a terrible chance of hitting me, and then when it does ward takes the damage.  How much better can it be?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a side note, all this garbage of "If your not lvl 40+ I don't wanna hear your opinion" is ignorant and arrogant.  If you don't want lvl 35 people commenting on your holy thread make the title "question for 40+ defilers" or something like that.  In other words ask the question you want answered and don't belittle people for answering the question you asked.  Also, if you can't handle other people having an experience or opinion that differs from yours don't ask the question at all.</DIV>

[Broomhilda]

<P>I see some people are determined to keep Defiler wards broken.  Insofar as differing opinions, the only people that opinions are being attacked are the people that beleive we deserve to be looked at by the devs.  40+...yes I brought that up because as I stated earlier in the thread and many have stated in other threads are where many defilers have had their problems resurface.  Just because the thread isnt called for 40+ only, does not diminish this valid point.  Arrogant and ignorant Punch?   You have just described yourself with your nasty remarks and inaccurate claims.  Everyone knows that bruiser types fair better with defilers, but in the highend of the game they wont be the ones tanking most of the time in raids.  More lack of experience rearing it's head here.  BTW  no one said we were"broken" as a class, most agreed tho that the wards need work.</P> <P>As for the "50" that believes defilers are uber and need no work, YET refuses to share just how he does it, if you can MH in ALL situations more power to ya!  You be Da uberest!</P> <P>Im done with this thread.  ..but I am in no way silenced.  I will continue to fight for defiler improvements whether you people like it or not.  Remember as I stated before, if our class does see any improvements, please remember, for those of you that claim Defilers are uber!,  you had NOTHING to do with it.  </P> <P>Good luck. Peace out!</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>05-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:02 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[VizP]

<div></div>Such unbelievable arrogance - even with so mch of the defiler community against her, she stands vehement that only she knows best and when changes are made she will be one of the people that was responsible for those changes. I really dislike people like that - people that really amount to nothing yet want to claim credit for something they do not deserve. Broomhilda, if changes are made it will be for the people that made balanced clear points on defilers, looked at both the positive and negatives and then provided evidence for these claims. Even though the devs have not posted here they posted on the mystic forums thanking them for feedback in their community list so its likely they do look here at the well thought out threads (such as the broken spell list) thread even though they have no reason to actually post anything (note though they are fixing spells noted to be broken.. we indicated here problems with of shielding and balm line, both are now fixed and it is as if they are literally working up through the list.. if Iw as a betting man they will now fix the buff line that falls when its ward line falls). In fact with all the well thought out discussions on wards one suspected they would have been a focus on the upcoming priest balancing long before this thread was a twinkle in that mind of yours. You see some of us happily are showing what needs to be fixed while also showing what we are good at. In that way we are helping the general game community know that defilers bring a lot to the game currently, that new defilers have a lot to enjoy in the 'current' game and also helping SOE see where problems lie (ward stacking analysis etc which it looks like they seem to be tinkering with from varying results post patch). So you see when changes are made, you can claim all the credit you want but you were only responsible for one thing. Conveying to young shamans not to pick defilers even though we are a sturdy class at present, conveying to people who read the forums and know little about defilers that we are third rate healers when it couldnt be further from the truth  and blowing your one horn repeatedly that wards are weak post 40. You can't be so naive to think that you are the first to mention ward issues at this point.. or your posts in the manner they are presented have ever brought anything to the table - for that you need someone who has an open mind who will look at all factors.  If people have felt wards had mitigation issues they were mentioned long ago and many of these very same people went on to mention all the positives, all the tweaks and then focussed on the possibilies. WIth informed intelligent thoughtful discussions. All you have done is continued on in a way that has alienated you from most defilers and you have really shown the magic behind your convictions by indicating you are rerolling a templar! In my list indicating why defilers are great I said we were the best priest DPS class, your response was that you had seen some great fury DDs! Instead of a response such as 'yes defilers are great.. furies are also one of the top offensive priests but thats another good point about our class' its a case of one more focus no the negatives and ignore the positives. The mentality that one should ignore all the positives of a class because one believes wards are weak post 40 reveals a lot about how you see this class  and to actually berate someone that would dare mention positives when you focus on this factor is even worse. All it has meant is that you have basically amounted to nothing here and whether you like it or not, when changes are made you can enjoy them and you can happily believe allt he defilers here that said positives things were not responsible and you were. Honestly, you can 'believe' what you want. The way these things are happening though, when these threads form and defilers are attacked as being 'broken', the very manner that the posters claiming this write their posts compared to those showing what a defiler really is, any new shaman is always going to try them out and see what we are saying. Because those defilers that continue to claim we are broken will only talk about post 40 wards and nothing else and act the way you do (and even then we have defilers in their 40s doing extremely well!). A new player would have enough sense to realise that every class has this sort of thing and its quite clear that the majority viewpoint is that we are in really good stead with continous improvements forthcoming. So every time these threads comes, even though its a lot of hard work I am thankful because the truth does reveal itself. <div></div><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<P>Vizp said:</P> <P>>>>Such unbelievable arrogance - even with so mch of the defiler community against her, she stands vehement that only she knows best and when changes are made she will be one of the people that was responsible for those changes. I really dislike people like that - people that really amount to nothing yet want to claim credit for something they do not deserve.<<<<<BR></P> <P>Vzip, you have really gone to far with the trolls. I cut and paste the above so you cant change it like you did on the other thread when you insulted individuals there.   I will ask that you stop speaking to me personally.  I am entitled to my opinion, I am sorry you do not agree. Insofar as the Defiler community, if you read the beginnings of this thread many agreed with my opinions.  Id say its 50/50, and we need to agree to totally disagree.  However if you keep speaking to me directly and insulting me I will report your posts.  I have reported the above one as it is.  I have also seen other posts by you where you have called out individuals and insulted them as well.  You had best be careful, I know people who have been banned from the game because of this behaviour on the forums.</P> <P>Continue to address me and I will continue to report you.  Have a good one and learn to respect the opinions of others.  This thread is done.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <SPAN class=date_text>05-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:35 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[VizP]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Feel free to report me Broomhilda please as many times as you wish. I am sure they will take great steps on account of my calling you 'arrogant' and my stating I 'dislike you' <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And also it is almost a test to see how many times you will post back in this thread even though you keep saying you are leaving. Lack of dignity? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sadly I am not going to change my behaviour in any way.. I am quite civil in all my posts and I don't think calling someone arrogant or stating your dislike for them is considered the greatest of abuse rule breakage (I can't even write this with a straight face <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and that is all I have done in all this time. I have addressed you in this post so report this one too while you are here. The moderators are not stupid, they can read and they can see when people are being antagonised. And it hardly started at my post. As for my trolling etc, anyone that reads this thread will make their own conclusions on the situation and that little one star next to all your posts is an indication of how a single person did not deem it fit to push that little rating up (the true irony is you telling me to respect the opinions of others when all of this started because you told me you had no interest in mine and clearly showed you had little interest in anyone else that disagreed with you.. amazing). If you reported me, one of the moderators will read it too and I am sure they will have a good laugh, it is a thankless job they have after all. Broomhilda I am not going anywhere - I help new defilers, I try and post advice on what I have observed my class and I indicate when poor defilers rubbish the class because of their own shortcomings. At the very most I may go out and call them what I called you - arrogant and I will voice my firm dislike. You may want to look at other threads to see people that are really breaking the rules instead of being so dramatic. Anything for a call of attention though, by 'reporting' me (and what a wonderful report it must be too)  you really have shown your true colours.  Now I will keep my word and stop posting in this thread because unlike you, I do have integrity and this thread really has met its conclusion has it not?. Have fun with your templar and as I said, do not ever hesitate to report me anywhere you see it - I have enough confidence in my words to see I am doing very little wrong. It has definitely 'not' been a pleasure but at least you made many new 'friends' here. *smiles at her and tips his hat*<p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 PM</span>

[Broomhilda]

<P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=rules&message.id=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=rules&message.id=1</A></P> <p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 PM</span>

[Vandessa]

Technicaly,  many posts by both of you and others in this thread are in viloation of those rules you just reminded us about and this thread should be locked because of it. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mortakai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Docimodo wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am amused...</DIV> <DIV>Wards imo are not broken...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I am level 50... yes I raid A LOT... yes I group A LOT and yes I solo A LOT...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our class is not 'broken'... one or two of our non critical spells are just a little iffy... but if you can't work around that then I dont know what to offer you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I cant wait for baleful efflux to be fixed... (Those of you who know of the ward/manastone technique will agree)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But don't mind me, carry on indeed, I like it when it comes to patch time and Im even <FONT color=#ff0033>MORE</FONT> powerful</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/cackles insanely</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly its gotten to the stage that if Im not at a raid it either a) fails or b) takes twice as long</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/slaps you non believers around the head...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What will it take? me revealing my every strategy? not likely to happen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If only we could beat them with a wet trout until they understood just how good we are...</DIV>

[SisBoomB]

I think the average encounter, at least through level 40, ends before a defiler can really hit her stride. Most of the time it just isn't worth it to cast that third or fourth debuff, not when the mob is about to keel over dead. After a handful of these fast-paced encounters (think: trudging through Varsoon or exploring Runnyeye) the inefficiency of our heals begins to catch up with us, definitely so if there is no healing support. Most defilers struggle to hang on. Defilers seem to be one of the few classes that actually worsen the shorter an encounter lasts because our potential is hardly ever reached. Other classes can accomplish the desired effect (of damage mitigation) with the click of a button or two. I can outshine a templar of the same level, it's just that I hardly ever get the chance to do so.I would like to see our short game greatly improved. Hopefully this will happen once wards are "fixed". Until that time, I believe there are other healers better suited to handle these encounters.

[sostrows]

<P>I agree Sis that in a short encounter that we only use a few of our spells.</P> <P>For me at 44, if I was in a grp of 6 mowing down greens I would be using -</P> <P>-(my buffs - always on)</P> <P>-Aphotic Touch (Master1)</P> <P>-My imprecation lvl 40 upgrade  (reduces mob's resistances to like 4-5 attacks by about 600) (my best nuke)</P> <P>-Suppuration (Master1) for fun.</P> <P>-Heals on tank (I would only ward the tank before the pull and do healing during fight.  Some tanks have ALOT of reactive abilities so there is a good argument NOT to ward the tank against greens so that the tank's (bezerkers especially with reactive armor) reactives kick in (and our Tendrils of Terror).</P> <P>-use mob mastery smite if applicable</P> <P>-and melee them.</P> <P>Using very few of our skills? definately.  However, I bet alot of other char types feel the same when mowing down green mobs also.  Orange^^ = he gets everything and my kitchen sink from Big Bend.  Grp of green mobs? - Aphotic Touch is our best bet.</P> <DIV>I agree with the essence of you post, but I got the feeling that all the other char class types feel the same way against greens.  My bezerker friend will not cast all his self-buffs against greens for instance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Interested if anyone else can provide some insight??</DIV>

[SisBoomB]

Actually, I'm not really talking greens because they are easy for even the most uncoordinated of groups. I'm talking hordes of blue and white-conned mobs with the occasional yellow thrown in. The kind that encounters that pass fairly quickly, but not without taking out sizable chunk of the tank's health. I think defilers are better suited to handle brutish, hard-hitting mobs that take awhile to drop, maybe a minute plus. Holding down even-conned golems in Varsoon is what I'm referring to. Once the rooms are broken in, a defiler is reliably able to keep the fort, even if you get an add or two. It just seems that these kinds of scenarios are few and far between. The average encounter proceeds at a faster clip, and before you know it, the group is done and ready to move on to the next encounter, and then another. It's not long before the defiler needs to take a breather whereas, say, a warden is better off. Their short game is more reliable than ours.I like the idea that there is a long/short game to certain classes because it adds a certain dimension to the game. However, until there is a wider variety of encounters, I would like our short game addressed, because right now, that is what the game seems to be geared toward.<p>Message Edited by SisBoomBah on <span class=date_text>05-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:40 AM</span>

[sostrows]

<DIV>We definately prove our worth against EPIC or GRPx2 etc mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we own against single ^^ mobs also tho.  If I land my Atrophy and Suppuration right at the start of the fight, I will have taken off 20% of the mobs HP.  Now if you have a full grp, the average DPS per member is 16.7%.  And in a large grp, normally the MT DPS will decrease as he focuses more on keeping aggro.  The MH (non-shaman) DPS normally will decrease as the priest will have to dedicate more mana/spells/attention to the MT that you would if you were dualing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this is my argument why Defilers are extremely powerful DPS against any ^^ type mob.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Right off the bat, the Defiler takes off 20% of the mob's HP.  Now you throw in your DOT and nuke and you may end up at ~25%.  So now the other 5 grp members must divide up 75% of the available mob's heath.  SO thats 75%/5 = 15% average.  So for another grp member to equal your 25%, they must really out damage the other DPS in the grp (assuming noone is sleeping/coasting).  Plus, your keeping the MT alive the whole time.  So against a ^^ a Defiler ends up the #1 or #2 DPS AND keeps the MT alive (via debuff, slow, ward, heal etc)?  That's impressive.  You have to land those STA debuffs while the mob is approaching the grp after the pull though to get the best effect for them.  I always tell my grp to focus on debuffs for the first 6 seconds as I land the first HO (Suppuration + Vile Imprecation lvl 40 training upgrade).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Against hoards of greens/blue/white even con or down arrow mob groups, I just throw my only AE DOT, Aphotic Touch, and just let the other DPS grp members do their job while keeping the MT alive.  Against these grps, my only thing it feels like I need to do is the occassional ward on the tank.  I might throw a debuff in, but without a AE debuff I do feel gimped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which spells do you throw on a single white^^ mob SisBoomBah when your in a grp as the MH and when?  I'm always interested in how other Defilers use their spells.</DIV>

[SisBoomB]

On white^^ mobs, I generally use Atropy, Supporation, Fuliginous Coil, and Loathing on the mob, in that order. Then I apply a ward on the tank and heal him if he sustained any damage. I reapply Supporation and Fuliginous Coil as they wear off and toss in a smattering of Vile Imprecation here and there.The other day, I was in group in Cazic-Thule that consisted of a 47 coercer, a 45 illusionist, a 48 necromancer and a 40 defiler (that would be me) and it was a blast. Although using the necro's pet as the tank was somewhat problematic (re-targeting him during battle, after targeting another character was a bit difficult because he didn't have his own targetable box like player characters get), exploration proceeded without any snags. Although I received plenty of compliments about my healing prowess, the enchanters obviously had more to do with damage mitigation than I did. However, I was still very much needed, and the whole experience was fantastic.Now if the developers re-evaluate our wraithform (The old version works if not a better solution), I would be more content playing my defiler!

[sostrows]

<P>You do not use Umbral Trap? or Bane of Shielding?  I usually use the Loathing last as I'm not sure how much impact the INT/WIS components really have a mob.</P> <P>I have found the Bane (or the upgrade Nskret) to be very useful if you fighting blue/white^^ mobs as they proc often and I will supplement them with the Balm series Heals for HO completions with the tank.</P> <P>I have to go do some research but I'm not sure how the Umbral Trap (-DPS%) relates to slow%.</P> <P>Always interesting on how others play their Defilers!!</P> <P>//////my sequence on white^^/////</P> <P>tank warded with single ward (and grp ward if time/mana allows) before pull</P> <P>Atrophy</P> <P>Suppuration</P> <P>Kweign's (Vile Imprecation upgrade) - Completes HO, interrupts mob and debuffs mobs resistances for casters</P> <P>Umbral Trap</P> <P>(ward if needed)</P> <P>Nskrets Bane of Shielding</P> <P>Fulignous Coil</P> <P>Loathing</P> <P>Aphotic Touch (orange/red mobs for massive noxious debuff if I'm with a SK or Warlock)</P> <P>////</P> <P>So I guess for me, my priorities are 1. STA debuff 2. Slow 3. other debuffs.</P>

[yzyh]

<DIV>that is bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. IN fact make the same thing but with the warlock doing do sinle spell or buff. The fight will be very long too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or do the reverse. The templar remove all of his bff and do nothing and let you do the healing and buffing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The topic wasnt that Defiler are useless. But that your the weakest healing in game. After a paladin of course.</DIV>

[AsianGangs]

<P>lol...... I just soloed a defender of thyr for fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i am the weakest healer in game yet my main DH have a 7sec recast and heals for more than any other priest class in game except 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I have a 1sec training heal that heal for 668 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>and i also have a group heal that heals for 720 at adept3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>when i'm in a group i have a 3k group ward and 2 stackable training wards that ward for about 1.9k <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>in a raid i have 3 slows, 3 sta debuffs, 2 mitigation debuffs, and a str,int,wis debuff.</P> <P>good untility, good healer, and good solo ability. defilers rock, now just fix our bail effux [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it .</P>

[tjigg]

What is this I hear? Worst healers in the game? Umm... I have single healed my groups since level 30, all the way to lvl 50. Never had any problems.. I even managed to get 120+ dps in the process in PF in my high 40s.. So, I was in groups that killed way faster (additional dps spot open), never died, and I was able to outdps several pick-up scouts. Tell me again we are the worst healers. Please focus on how the game works and how you can do your best, and not what you can whine about. Thank you. (I dont have time to explain how I play, im just waiting for organizing our raid, but i CAN say this: Never have I done lower cons than yellow, its not worth it in any way in a group.) <div></div>

[Yudadie]

<div></div> I think the real problem is that there isn't one.  I am only in my mid 30s but from what i have learned is this. If the other people in my group  do there job correctly than i can heal fine and dish out some added stuff.  BUT, and thats a big but, if the group members dont know how to fight/do their job, than you as a healer and defiler really pay the price. I think this stems from 2 things....knowing your char and using the correct spells at the correct times. And i too attack yellow + mobs in groups. I can also take 2-3 whites( or equals) alone---but we aren't talking aobut soloing Just my 2 cents, Mac PS- this is all irrelivant anyway since the "balancing" will occur shortly.  I just hope that doesn't turn my char into a dull click fest. <p>Message Edited by Yudadie on <span class=date_text>06-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[SisBoomB]

It still amazes me that there are people out there playing defilers that are completely content with the class, save for the obviously lacking wards situation. What's that you say? You mean you do agree that there are defiler-specific problems and yet you choose to blindly invest your faith into what might happen? Are you saying that defilers were developed to near perfection, save the traits we share with other shaman? I think it is important to realize that these daily affirmations do not effect change whatsoever, especially when there are many legitimate problems to draw upon. If you are truly satisfied right now, then enjoy it while it lasts, because envy will start to set in. Other classes will get brand new toys to play with and we will too, it's just that we will have to share them with our kid brother. As a defiler, it feels like I am stranded in the Land of the Lotus-eaters.

[sostrows]

<P>Sis,</P> <P>I'm gonna start a new thread that looks for suggestions on how to improve our class or features that we want.  Consolidate it.   and keep /petitioning those ideas.</P> <P>Constructive and positive.</P> <P>Kind of a wish-list thread.  No mod/dev/sane-person reads this thread anymore.  I know I tune out of threads soon as the attacks go personal.</P>

[Broomhilda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SisBoomBah wrote:<BR>It still amazes me that there are people out there playing defilers that are completely content with the class, save for the obviously lacking wards situation. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It amazes me too, but to each his/her own I suppose.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree with sostrows though, this thread is dead.  After being attacked by the self-professed "zealots" and "we be Uber!" crowd repeatedly, trolled and harrassed by certain ones (in other threads/topics as well) of them for the past several weeks I will agree that this thread has been thoroughly corrupted and is and will be over-looked by the Devs except to come in and admonish us.  And maybe thats a good thing because theres alot of conflicting viewpoints amoungst Defilers that would confuse any "sane" person reading it.  I can see a Dev reading this and saying something like this:  "Fix? or no Fix?  [Removed for Content] do these crazy Defilers want?   Bah forget it, their all dam confused, lets go work on those Inquisitor Reactive problems!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave it Dead.  </DIV>

[Xesor]

<span>Same whines, different day.   Doesn't it get old?  =(</span><div></div>