Sta debuffs after patch [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Nacoa

03-10-2005, 02:28 AM

<blockquote><hr>Bolor wrote:<DIV>"<DIV>It looks as though it adds HP to the mob, because when you decrease a mobs total HP the bar will go up, because you've made the bar smaller in a sense. If a mob has 1000/2000 HP's it will be a 1/2 full bar, however if you take it down to 1000/1500 HP's it will be a 3/4 full bar."</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>hm, does that even help us if the total hp is lower but the amount we have to deal dmg to still is the same?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Im confused...</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>The damage you have to do is reduced, as long as you cast the debuff at the begining of the fight. If you cast the debuff after the mob's already lost much of it's heath, then it won't affect the mob's current HPs.To use the numbers in the example you quoted, casting the debuff at the begining of the fight takes the mob from 2000/2000 HPs to 1500/1500 HPs. You've now cut down the amount of damage you have to do to the mob by 500....or so the theory goes.

Anakre

03-10-2005, 08:30 AM

<DIV>The above poster is correct, If you don't debuff at full health or if the debuff doesn't take the mob to full health then I guess it does no good at all.</DIV>

Bol

03-10-2005, 02:27 PM

<DIV>Then I would say its clearly bugged to hell and will start my daily bug-reporting. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Jan It

03-10-2005, 10:39 PM

I don´t think it is bugged, but intended to work that way. Else the damage output on certain mobs would be outstanding. The only thing I hate is the unreliable timer.

EgilRon

03-11-2005, 08:32 PM

<DIV>DOes it matter if it wears off though? If all it is effecting is MAX HP, then having it wear off should have no impact at all.</DIV>

sostrows

03-11-2005, 11:33 PM

<DIV><U>STA DEBUFF NUMBERS FROM KILLING ORCS IN COMMONLANDS</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I put some theories to the test------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used Contamination Adept3 (-16 STA) and Degeration (-49 STA) Adept3 to lead fight in these scenarios</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob = Bloodskull Warrior (orc) lvl 17</DIV> <DIV>Normal HP = 512 (about 30hp/lvl)</DIV> <DIV>HP after using only Contamination = 440ish (26hp/lvl) or about 12%</DIV> <DIV>HP after using Degeneration then Contamination = 355ish.(21hp/lvl) or about 33%</DIV> <DIV>HP just using Degeneration = 440ish (26hp/lvl)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lead one fight with DD. Mob was at 76%. Cast Degeneration and mob went to 89% health. I have a bad feeling that STA debuff does not lower current HP!!!! but only max HP of mob and therefore may be useless if cast into the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WOW! So if you land ur 2 STA debuffs at start of fight - you have just effectively killed 1/3. Factor that as DPS and you see how valuable a Shaman is now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have a formula for a mob's HP and I don't know how much they vary by mob type. But I would assume something like this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hp=a+b*c+d (a = base, b = modifier, c = lvl, d = ^^ factors etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The formula is most likely different but you get the idea its not a hp=bxc calculation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*STA debuffs do stack though at 0 STA for the mob (grey or green?), u've max STA debuff'd it</DIV> <DIV>*After Degeneration wore off, mob's max HP returnd to normal but his current HP did NOT</DIV> <DIV>*Contamination STA worked the same as Degeneration debuff for mob's HP returning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KEYS:</DIV> <DIV>-use your STA debuffs to lead the fight followed by your slows then finally your DOTs</DIV> <DIV>-have everyone in grp use their STA debuff to lead fight (hopefully they stack, but not sure)</DIV> <DIV>-you don't have to recast the STA only type debuffs if they wear off as mobs do not get "HP heal" when buff wears off</DIV> <DIV>-use DOTs last. Your physical attacks/DOT will be dwarfed by the other char in a grp so focus on STA debuff out the gate.</DIV> <DIV>? STA debuff may be useless if cast in the fight if it only affect max HP of mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to lead with my slow so this analysis actually is changing how I play. Thanks for everyone posting and helping out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Moosh

03-12-2005, 01:42 AM

I can't believe some of you haven't noticed they're overpowered, but lets keep this quiet please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This debuff helps out with our healing efficiency greatly, faster mob death = less heals. However, wards still suck But i can live with this incredible debuff.

Moosh

03-12-2005, 03:30 AM

Now that i think about it though, shamans still blow vs. groups of 3+

Putka

03-12-2005, 07:00 AM

<DIV>What exactly do you think is overpowered here? That you can debuff a blue or lower solo mob do 2/3 health? .. whoopee</DIV>

Moosh

03-12-2005, 09:31 AM

Putka it doesn't take off a fixed amount of hp ;P Its a percentage. But if you don't think its overpowered thats cool. I hope Sony thinks so too.Edit: If you want to test it on a group mob, cast Atrophy on a level 49^^ or something similar, do a little bit of dmg (I think suppuration will do), take off Atrophy off maintained spell list. Incredible in my opinion <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Mooshfu on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:33 PM</span>

Anakre

03-12-2005, 10:29 AM

<DIV>It has to be the way it was intended to work... because it lowers sta so it lowers total hp's. Granted it would be nice to have a buff that lowers a % of current hp instead. Also a fantastic addition to our spell line-up would be a group sta debuff.</DIV>

Jan It

03-12-2005, 01:00 PM

Another note: Stamina debuffs don´t stack. Tested it with Mizmog´s and Atrophy yesterday. So the training spell Mizmogs becomes nearly obsolete at lvl 38, because it´s not much better than Atrophy.This makes me REALLY curious if our slows are stackable or if we only have 3 spells with 10% each, that result in a total of 10% after using them all.

EgilRon

03-13-2005, 04:38 AM

<DIV>My Atrophy was certainly stacking with suppuration for the STA debuff. Maybe the ones on the slow line don'y stack with each other, only with the ones from the contagion line.</DIV>

SisBoomB

03-13-2005, 05:33 AM

Stamina debuffs are nice, but they are hardly great, and they are definitely not overpowered.As many have stated above, you have to use the debuff(s) at the beginning of an encounter to get any benefit from them, otherwise you are just shrinking the health pool and not the hit points themselves.Another post remarked that the debuff was overpowered, but I believe that is just ignorance rearing it's ugly head. Sure, if the Defiler and his party were to wait around until all the debuffing was finished, then you would have much less hit points to worry about. Meanwhile, said mob is ripping you and the the people you know a new one. If you have been playing this game for any amount of time, you know it is unrealistic to wait until you have fully debuffed the stamina of the mob before dealing your damage. To expect your party to wait around while you finish your task will get you the deserved title of 'Stupid'. The damage incurred during that wait will just about kill you or one of your teammates.The truth of the matter is, Defilers have a very narrow window right at the beginning of most fights to put their spells to use. Sure we get a smattering of direct damage during our career (which can be an excellent way to end fights), but as a battle winds down, most of what Defilers do becomes irrelevant. While this is generally true for all subclasses, for us it is a way of life. We are ill equipped for the typical fast fights in EQ2, at least compared to most classes. In my opinion, stamina debuffs can be used as a metaphor to describe Defilers (see the first sentence).

Moosh

03-14-2005, 04:04 AM

Hehe.I was the one who said they were overpowered. I am very, very sorry. I came to denounce that claim. Please do not change the way stamina debuffs work, I now believe they are working as intended <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But yes, they will stack. Atrophy/Mizmogg are the same exact spell line so you can't stack them. Loathsome seal + Atrophy + Suppuration will stack because they are different lines.

Khorfa

03-14-2005, 12:29 PM

I did alot of parsing both solo and grouping on the stamina debuffs.I ended up removing 16-20% of all the mobs hp each time, I was thrilled!A level 32^^ golem en RoV lost more than 1100 hp alone from staminadebuffs, thats pretty amazing <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kalam

03-15-2005, 03:16 AM

<DIV>Until I see evidence to say otherwise, I'm agreement with those that say Sta debuffs only affect max HPs thus are only useful at the start of a fight. To put another way, they are only useful until the amount of damage done to a MOB exceeds the amount the Sta debuff would reduce. I also see no negative impact to the debuff wearing off, other than losing separate effects, like the Str portion of the Mystic debuff, or when dealing with MOBs that could heal themselves or be healed back to full HP. When the debuff wears off the MOB goes back to max HP pool, but by that time the current HP has already been permanently affected by the debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess another way to look at Sta debuffs is they're a direct damage spell, because that's technically what they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

zeeke

03-15-2005, 03:33 AM

<DIV>So why if its working as you say, if you fight a 3 up mob for example, can the mob be at 42% health and then I debuff him and now hes at 56% health?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The debuffs wear off lets say at 23% health and he stays at 23% health. I debuff him again and now hes at 31% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So your saying he had 50,000/50,000 and then I debuffed him to 44,000/44,000 so he went from 42% of 50,000 to 56% of 44,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what about when it wears off, he doesnt then stay at 44,000 does he? And then when you reapply it doesnt make him drop to 37,000/37,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know what you are parsing but to me its broke. I dont see how they can be working as instended and also every fight I have to listen to the rest of the raid and or group yell 50x over and over "whats healing it?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then once I tell them its my spells they yell about either not using it cause its healing the mobs or dont use my broken spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Somethings not right no matter how you look at it, shrink the pool all you want but make it stop appearing to heal itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

sostrows

03-15-2005, 03:57 AM

<DIV>That's the way I look at it Kalamos - our STA debuffs are a 0-33% DD attack that we have to launch at the start of combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the Defiler threads, a guy is saying all 3 trains of STA debuffs stack. So a high level Defiler can stack his 3 debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure if Defiler debuffs stack with other classes though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When me and my dual buddy (zerker) xp now - we stick the STA debuffs first to the point where I have been doing the pulling and he taunts the mob off easily as long as I don't land a self-HO. Just wish we had an AOE STA debuff for groups of greens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we form grps now - we tell folks to nail the mob (especially the ^^) with non-damage debuffs for first 6 seconds and if they have a STA debuff to use it. It's been making a huge difference as we tried doing it this way and just starting DPS. "The STA debuffs and be chill for a 6 sec before u break out ur meat cleavers" method cut the mob kill time by about 10-40% (sometimes my main debuff would get resisted).</DIV>

Kalam

03-15-2005, 04:05 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zeeke wrote:<BR> <DIV>So why if its working as you say, if you fight a 3 up mob for example, can the mob be at 42% health and then I debuff him and now hes at 56% health?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The debuffs wear off lets say at 23% health and he stays at 23% health. I debuff him again and now hes at 31% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So your saying he had 50,000/50,000 and then I debuffed him to 44,000/44,000 so he went from 42% of 50,000 to 56% of 44,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what about when it wears off, he doesnt then stay at 44,000 does he? And then when you reapply it doesnt make him drop to 37,000/37,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know what you are parsing but to me its broke. I dont see how they can be working as instended and also every fight I have to listen to the rest of the raid and or group yell 50x over and over "whats healing it?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then once I tell them its my spells they yell about either not using it cause its healing the mobs or dont use my broken spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Somethings not right no matter how you look at it, shrink the pool all you want but make it stop appearing to heal itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When the Sta debuff wears off there should be a decline on the HP bar and % number by the same amount as it went up when the debuff hit. It's possible you're not seeing it because it's alot easier to see HPs going up than it is going down since damage can be spikey, especially when Wizards/Warlocks are firing their big nukes. The drop on the HP bar may just seem like normal damage when in fact it's your Sta debuff wearing off.</P> <DIV>The easy answer to keep your guild from crying why a MOB is healing is to cast your debuff right at the start of the fight and don't let it drop. In other words recast it well before your previous one wears off. This will keep the MOB from appearing to heal.</DIV>

Fredric

03-15-2005, 07:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zeeke wrote:<BR> <DIV>So why if its working as you say, if you fight a 3 up mob for example, can the mob be at 42% health and then I debuff him and now hes at 56% health?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The debuffs wear off lets say at 23% health and he stays at 23% health. I debuff him again and now hes at 31% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So your saying he had 50,000/50,000 and then I debuffed him to 44,000/44,000 so he went from 42% of 50,000 to 56% of 44,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what about when it wears off, he doesnt then stay at 44,000 does he? And then when you reapply it doesnt make him drop to 37,000/37,000?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know what you are parsing but to me its broke. I dont see how they can be working as instended and also every fight I have to listen to the rest of the raid and or group yell 50x over and over "whats healing it?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then once I tell them its my spells they yell about either not using it cause its healing the mobs or dont use my broken spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Somethings not right no matter how you look at it, shrink the pool all you want but make it stop appearing to heal itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'm having this same problem now too, fought a few mobs last night with 240k hps. That health bar jumped around alot. I ended up getting so paranoid of its health that I stopped using them all together. And yes I do understand the concept of shrinking the health bar so that it appears that the health is going up (I wish my guild did). I'm going to parse total hps of raid mobs tonight to make sure

kev

03-15-2005, 09:28 PM

<DIV>Had the training sta debuff that was working, after parsing a few fights and realizing the impact it had as soon as I see a harm touch or taunt from tank I hit with sta debuff. As for people complaining about the mob appearing to heal itself tell them the buff is most effective at the beginning of the fight because it decreases the overall HP, only cases I have had anyone say anything was when i got a resist or two and we got 1/4-1/2 into the mobs hp, then explained the other debuff factor to that spell. </DIV>

sostrows

03-16-2005, 12:28 AM

<DIV>What program /tool were u parsing with?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I plan on doing some testing on blue^^ or white^^ when dualing to get a good idea what % of the mob i can expect to take off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>?? Also - does anyone know the real formula SOE uses for mob HP??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If in the formula, one of the terms of the equation is like HP = a1 + b2 + STA*LVL + c3 etc it would be a reliable to way to predict how much HP the debuffs take off. My Degeneration Adept3 is 49 STA. Contamination Adept3 is 16 STA.</DIV>

Moosh

03-17-2005, 12:54 AM

That's not right; when the debuff wears off you shouldn't be seeing 23%, you should be seeing less. Try looking harder <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When you reapply after it fades it shouldn't go to 31%, it should go back to 23%23% -fades- > 15% (something similar)Reapply > ~22% (depending on how much dmg was done.Look harder <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

zeeke

03-18-2005, 02:42 AM

<DIV>When the debuffs wear off, the health does for sure not move period. Once I reapply the debuffs his health will go back up. Its exactly as my post above, and it works that way every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been testing this every way possible, and Im sorry but In my opinion they are very broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had djarn to 15% last night, I reapplied all by debuffs and he was back to 30%, and NO he was not easier to kill cause he now had a smaller health pool, it took us a while to get him back to 15% again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If he had 15% of 10,000 hp would be 1500 hp, and I debuffed him to 30% of 5000 hp just to get back to that same 1500 hp. But its not working that way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest I am at this point not sure what they are doing but in all appearaces its just plain healing the mob. Im still using them all, trying to make some sense of this. The biggest problem is as I said when they wear off he doesnt drop down any % at all. You look again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Jan It

03-18-2005, 01:58 PM

<div></div>Look harder??? I can look as hard as I want, but for me it works this way: Mob has 1000/1000hp my stamina debuff kicks in Mob has 800/800hp doing damage after that Mob has 200/800hp my stamina debuff runs out Mob has 400/1000hp the stamina debuff is cast again Mob has 400/800hp That means I cast 2 stamina debuffs for nothing. I wouldn´t care about that system, as it is possible to reapply the debuff before it runs out. Sadly the timers are broken and it is not easy to keep track of the debuff that way.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Jan Itor on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 AM</span>

zeeke

03-18-2005, 09:20 PM

<DIV>I agree with Jan, that exactly what I was saying as well. Just using larger numbers. But it is healing the mob. Buff runs out, there is no change in percent period. Apply, again health goes up. Runs out, no change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see what they were trying to do, but its not working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

03-18-2005, 10:21 PM

<DIV>To me it jumps down...., you just can't see it if it is very low, because then the amount it drops is close to nothing!</DIV>

Moosh

03-18-2005, 11:40 PM

Try this Jan, it works for me everytime. Cast Atrophy, then apply Suppuration. Wait 6 seconds or so, remove atrophy. Mob hp % should drop considerably. <div></div>

11B3VB4

03-20-2005, 11:37 AM

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mooshfu wrote:<BR>Try this Jan, it works for me everytime.<BR><BR>Cast Atrophy, then apply Suppuration.<BR><BR>Wait 6 seconds or so, remove atrophy.<BR><BR>Mob hp % should drop considerably.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>So your saying by what you've seen the HP lost to the initial STA debuff is a perm loss?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Sorry havn't really looked into this at all, just trying to catch up while at work...</FONT><BR></P>

Kalam

03-21-2005, 12:33 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 11B3VB4 wrote:<BR> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mooshfu wrote:<BR>Try this Jan, it works for me everytime.<BR><BR>Cast Atrophy, then apply Suppuration.<BR><BR>Wait 6 seconds or so, remove atrophy.<BR><BR>Mob hp % should drop considerably.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>So your saying by what you've seen the HP lost to the initial STA debuff is a perm loss?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Sorry havn't really looked into this at all, just trying to catch up while at work...</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes that's what he's saying and yes it is a permanat loss. I did some tests this weekend that confirm what my thoughts were. When the Sta debuff expires there is a noticeable drop on the target's HP bar and % HP number. You can do this test too ... it's easy. Pull something that wont kill you with a Sta debuff, knock it down to about 50% HPs then turn off attack and don't do any damage. Then watch the expiration timer on the debuff and when it gets close to wearing off, hover your mouse pointer over the Target's HP bar so that you can see the % health. When the Sta debuff wears off you WILL see the % number drop. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

11B3VB4

03-21-2005, 02:11 PM

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. But I'm happy to hear I no longer have to worry about keeping it on the whole fight for fear of losing what ground the sta debuff had gained.

zeeke

03-22-2005, 01:26 AM

<DIV>Im sorry but I still dont agree. When the debuff expires the mob health does not decrease, at all. My target window is listed in % and it does not decrease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you reapply the same debuffs, and mob health will increase % everytime. Expires and no decrease, rinse and repeat. And this is on 3ups, 2ups, anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trying fighting a raid mob and watch his health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope todays patch maybe fixed it, maybe not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont get how you guys are saying the health goes down when the debuff wears off. Somebodys target window is broken or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kalam

03-22-2005, 02:08 AM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zeeke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im sorry but I still dont agree. When the debuff expires the mob health does not decrease, at all. My target window is listed in % and it does not decrease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you reapply the same debuffs, and mob health will increase % everytime. Expires and no decrease, rinse and repeat. And this is on 3ups, 2ups, anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trying fighting a raid mob and watch his health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope todays patch maybe fixed it, maybe not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont get how you guys are saying the health goes down when the debuff wears off. Somebodys target window is broken or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey I'm just telling you what I witnessed on 4 different tests. I don't see why it would be any different on a regular MOB vs. a raid MOB. Based on your comments it sounds like you're using a custom UI. Maybe your custom target window that displays the health % isn't updating correctly? Just a thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Xesor

03-22-2005, 05:37 AM

Fight raid mobs nightly, and the sta debuffs work fine as has been said repeatedly in this thread. Might want to check your UI if you are having difficulty seeing what everyone else can. <div></div>

Anakre

03-22-2005, 08:56 AM

<DIV>Hey guys... they fixed stamina debuffs! HURAY!!!!! Wait... didn't they already do that once before? Oh yeah, and once before that? Wait a second, what about the time before that? Or before that? Something has to be wrong if EVERY(for the most part) patch with notes for the past 2 weeks has said that they fixed them.</DIV>

Nacoa

03-22-2005, 09:12 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Anakreon wrote:<div>Hey guys... they fixed stamina debuffs! HURAY!!!!! Wait... didn't they already do that once before? Oh yeah, and once before that? Wait a second, what about the time before that? Or before that? Something has to be wrong if EVERY(for the most part) patch with notes for the past 2 weeks has said that they fixed them.</div><hr></blockquote> They didn't necessarily make more than one change. At least when they updated SWG there were many times were one change would be accidentally left in the patch notes for more than one patch. Given the length of these patch notes, as well as the repeat of several other old patches, it looks like they accidentally included some old changes.</span><div></div>

zeeke

03-24-2005, 01:40 AM

<DIV>So I guess all 24 people in my raids for the past 3 days all have broken UI's as well. Neat! Guess they all yell whats healing the mob for fun. Guess their UIs dont work when my buffs go off and they dont yell WOW who did massive damage to that mob <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, to each his own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And now I guess the fact that loathsome seal will only cast once per encounter only happends to me too huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you debuff the adds before you fight the drakota then you are just out of luck as it will just sit in queued forever and never cast. Doesnt grey out, was only defiler in group at one point so its not a wont take effect issue, just sits as queued. Started in last patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

11B3VB4

03-24-2005, 07:54 AM

<P>While I didn't fight any raid mobs or conduct any controled tests these past few days, I did spend 8 hours wacking leezerds in CT. It did appear that everytime I cast my contamination spell the HP of the MOB would go up again (STA debuff being applied ) and that seems in contrast to the majority of what I'm reading.</P> <P>I do notice the drastic reduction in Kill time with STA debuffs applied, but I'm just not convinced that the DOT STA debuff stays when the dot leaves. I know I should check it in a more controled enviroment than CT with a group fighting who knows what, but it's just what I noticed during normal exp time.</P> <P>Too bad we can't test on players to see the effects in a more controled enviroment with solid feed back, you think with all of their problems they would welcome the tests that could be conducted using PvP.</P>

zeeke

03-25-2005, 02:54 AM

<DIV>HAHA well guess what? As of last night when the sta buffs wear off you can see the health drop. Not a lot, but it does drop. You add them back and it goes back up, but they key, its droping when it wears off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont know when and or why, but last night is the first time I can see it. I started off trying it on some level 30 2ups and 3ups just goofing around in caldron hollow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loathsome seal still wont cast but once per 4x encounter though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

11B3VB4

03-25-2005, 04:30 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zeeke wrote:<BR> <DIV>HAHA well guess what? As of last night when the sta buffs wear off you can see the health drop. Not a lot, but it does drop. You add them back and it goes back up, but they key, its droping when it wears off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont know when and or why, but last night is the first time I can see it. I started off trying it on some level 30 2ups and 3ups just goofing around in caldron hollow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loathsome seal still wont cast but once per 4x encounter though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So this would seem to indicate that they lose more STA every time it's cast. Otherwise you shouldn't notice the HP appear to increase when the DOT is reapplied...

zeeke

03-26-2005, 09:32 PM

<DIV>It appears to me everytime you cast your buffs, all 3 that debuff sta, they are losing hp. Each time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Anakre

03-27-2005, 11:27 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 11B3VB4 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zeeke wrote:<BR> <DIV>HAHA well guess what? As of last night when the sta buffs wear off you can see the health drop. Not a lot, but it does drop. You add them back and it goes back up, but they key, its droping when it wears off.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So this would seem to indicate that they lose more STA every time it's cast. Otherwise you shouldn't notice the HP appear to increase when the DOT is reapplied... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not particularly... If you debuff their overall sta they are going to lose total HP and thus it will shrink their HP bar, making it appear fuller with the same ammount of HP. Then when it wears off their hp bar becomes larger and thus appears as though they have less hp. Cast again and their bar just gets smaller and it appears fuller with the same ammount of hp.</DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV>Mob has 1500/2000 HP his health is at 75%</DIV> <DIV>Debuffed however much sta to take away 500 total HP the mob has 1500/1500 HP and thus is at 100%</DIV> <DIV>Debuff wears off and he's back to 1500/2000 OR 75%</DIV> <DIV>Put it back on and he's at 1500/1500 again OR 100%</DIV> <DIV>That's the way that I see the debuffs working anyways... so as long as you apply it at the beginning of the fight when it wears off it shouldn't matter.</DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV>Mob has 2000/2000 hp</DIV> <DIV>Debuffed down to 1500/1500</DIV> <DIV>Debuff wears off mob SHOULD still be at 1500/2000, supposing that debuffs actually ARE working correctly. At least in my mind that's how they SHOULD work, any other way would make the process extremely complicated, hard to figure out, and hard to keep the mob debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wish they could make the virtual size of the mobs HP bar stay the same, and have the debuff just take a chunk out of it instead of appearing to fill it up... Maybe some day.</DIV>

11B3VB4

03-29-2005, 02:48 PM

<P>I think I see your logic now... </P> <P>You debuff...</P> <P>There STA drops... </P> <P>They lose that HP...</P> <P>There STA goes back up...</P> <P>They don't regain those hp...</P> <P>But you can still drop max stamina...</P> <P>Which appears to be increasing the current HPS... even though it has no effect.</P> <P> </P>

Anakre

03-30-2005, 04:38 AM

<DIV>That is the way it SHOULD work. When they regain their total HP through the STA buff fading they shouldn't regain the HP they lost through the debuffing of STA.</DIV> <DIV>Also, if it wears off and you recast you're not doing anything good OR bad by placing the STA debuff back on.</DIV>

Yudadie

03-31-2005, 01:47 AM

Can anyone verify that the HP are actually decreased when the spell is cast.... If cast at beginning i can tell that HP decrease as per battle takes less time to complete.... What I want to know is if i cast during battle does it still remove the same amount of HPs... I see the HPs of mob go up( which means the max HPs have decreased)....but can anyone tell me that they parsed there logs and have determined that HPs still go down if i cast STA debuff during a battle.

Kalam

03-31-2005, 03:23 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yudadie wrote:<BR><BR>Can anyone verify that the HP are actually decreased when the spell is cast....<BR><BR>If cast at beginning i can tell that HP decrease as per battle takes less time to complete....<BR>What I want to know is if i cast during battle does it still remove the same amount of HPs...<BR><BR>I see the HPs of mob go up( which means the max HPs have decreased)....but can anyone tell me that they parsed there logs and have determined that HPs still go down if i cast STA debuff during a battle.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sta debuffs ONLY affect max HP and do not affect current HP. Thus Sta debuffs only provide a benefit when cast on a target before any damage is done. Although one could argue that a Sta debuff is still useful up until the amount of damage done to a target exceeds the amount of HP reduction from the debuff. Here's what I mean by that ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say a MOB has 1000 HPs, and your Sta debuff drops its max HP by 200. Say 100 damage is done to the MOB, putting it at 900/1000. Then you cast your Sta debuff, which drops it to 800/800. Your debuff didn't do as much as it could have, but you still knocked 100 HP off with the debuff. So once 200 damage has been done to the MOB putting it at 800/1000, your Sta debuff would provide zero benefit, because casting it at that point would make it 800/800. By the way, when I say zero benefit I'm only talking about the Sta portion of the debuff. Other debuff effects like Str for example are of course still useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Anakre

03-31-2005, 09:12 AM

<DIV>What he said... Simply put - If the mob's HP bar does not fill to 100% your sta debuff did nothing.</DIV>

Yudadie

03-31-2005, 07:54 PM

Thanks kalamos THis is what i expected but wanted to verify

Geohi

04-01-2005, 12:18 AM

I dont know what you guys are talking about. I see it EASILY ever since the patch. Its a SIGNIFICANT amount on level 50+ raid mobs. 1 bub+ . Which is a lot. -Geo <div></div>

04-01-2005, 01:13 AM

<DIV>Find a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast your sta debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cancel the sta debuff after it landed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See if it lost any hp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come here and tell me result!</DIV>

Anakre

04-01-2005, 04:33 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geohin1 wrote:<BR>I dont know what you guys are talking about. I see it EASILY ever since the patch. Its a SIGNIFICANT amount on level 50+ raid mobs. 1 bub+ . Which is a lot.<BR><BR>-Geo<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lol, to whom are you speaking to? Was this a reply to something on the first page or what? I don't think since this hit the second page, and is closing in on the third, that anybody said it doesn't work.</P> <P>One question on my part though: Since at lvl 45 my Adept 1 Atrophy only debuffs 65 STA... then logically it really should only debuff 130 HP. Obviously that's not what's happening, but that is what would happen if you hit a player with a 65 STA debuff.</P>

Xesor

04-01-2005, 12:05 PM

Yes, because a tank with 250 sta has only like 7k hitpoints, so 65 sta would take off not so much. A mob with 250 sta might have 250k hit points, therefore, taking off a lot more =p Numbers very much made up obviously. <div></div>

Anakre

04-01-2005, 11:25 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xesor wrote:<BR>Yes, because a tank with 250 sta has only like 7k hitpoints, so 65 sta would take off not so much.<BR><BR>A mob with 250 sta might have 250k hit points, therefore, taking off a lot more =p<BR><BR><BR>Numbers very much made up obviously. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Unless they changed the way stats work and never told me... 1 STA = 2 HP, just as 1 INT or WIS or STR or whatever = 2 power.</DIV>

Xesor

04-02-2005, 01:38 AM

While my post may have required some small amount of thinking to figure out, I didn't think it was that difficult to get. I'll just spell it out this time: Players might only get 2hp's per stamina, great. Mobs get a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] load more than that obviously, since when I debuff a 650k HP mob by ~110 stamina (and I was the only one able to stam debuff there), he loses ~70k HP's. Those numbers aren't made up, simply rounded since I don't have the exact parse anymore. That is a lot more than 2hp's per stam, but it seemed obvious that stamina for mobs would work different than players... <div></div>

Anakre

04-03-2005, 06:17 AM

I'm not sure how that is something that is supremely "obvious"... I suppose you can *ASSUME* that STA on mobs scales much more than STA on players, but then again you could have just said that too.

Xesor

04-08-2005, 06:01 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Anakreon wrote:I'm not sure how that is something that is supremely "obvious"... I suppose you can *ASSUME* that STA on mobs scales much more than STA on players, but then again you could have just said that too.<hr></blockquote>There is no assumption made. It's obvious, if you simply go out and test it. I didn't feel I had to specifically state something so easily verified.</span> <div></div>

sostrows

04-14-2005, 08:21 PM

<P>Went to Feerott last nite.</P> <P>Tested on a -2 SOLO mob.</P> <P>Hit it with Atrophy then an HO and got it to about 50% health.</P> <P>Tested 30 times in about 10 different combinations of skills.</P> <P>When STA debuffs wore off, mob did NOT gain back any HP. Just gained back MAX HP.</P> <P>Reapplied Atrophy - MAX HP only affected. Current HP not affected.</P> <P>Mob lost about 15% MAX HP from 2 STA debuffs.</P> <P>Conclusion: STA debuffs still only affect MAX HP, have no effect on current HP and I will continue to not refresh Atrophy during the fight unless its a big mob and I want the -STR benefits.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

Bol

04-15-2005, 01:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sostrows wrote:<BR> <P>Conclusion: STA debuffs still only affect MAX HP, have no effect on current HP and I will continue to not refresh Atrophy during the fight unless its a big mob and I want the -STR benefits.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by sostrows on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:23 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Just to make the record straight: are you also saying you dont care about the 10% attack speed debuff when you say you will not refresh the debuff?</DIV>

Docimodo

04-16-2005, 02:14 PM

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300ff>Simply put;</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Stamina debuffs are the most powerful spells a defiler has</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc33>the end...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only wish they had worked like they do now as i was levelling up when at the time the stamina component of the debuffs had zero effect (at least none that I can remember).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc9900>If as a defiler u fail to realise the potential of these spells and dont know how to use them to their greatest effect I pity the group you are in. you will be crap compared to another heal class and ppl will be asking for a real healer to come along etc</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>Also, these spells are the reason people are complaining that we are very mana inefficient/craphealers, going oop or lop every fight compared to other healers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>I to note DO NOT go lop or oom every fight unless the other healers cant keep up with heals/wards (due to recast timers etc) This is because I dont touch my heal spells or wards unless absolutely neccessary: THEY ARE HORRIBLY INEFFICIENT and rightly so. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>It is hard to put accross my point because what is being discussed here is a spell which among other things is part of a greater topic as a whole namely the 'Defilers are crap topic'</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>I would have to detail my every strategy to convince some people of our abilities one of which i will describe below;</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The use of the defiler class extends beyond single group fighting so much so i could hardly believe my luck in choosing a more wanted/useful subclass</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not only do all our debuffs (and buffs), including the debuff of particular note here, play a CRITICAL role in practically all raids (those of u who have fought asphyxia may replace all with 'most'), but remember those heals and wards that I mentioned try never to use because of their unbelievable ability to suck my power dry? Well, I may be the first to say it and i dont mind passing on this kind of aid to a fellow defiler (even tho im an incredibly competitive and '<FONT color=#ff0000>EVILLLL</FONT>' dark elf) I noticed that i can chain a nice set of wards and the occasional heal out that practically makes a tank (subject to other forms of healing ofcourse) able to take a serious amount of damge, the problem is that after the initial debuffing and a few cycles of this chain casting im oop. Well now... that makes me kind of useless for the rest of the fight doesnt it? and oh no my slows are wearing off and omg omg i have to recast a reactive debuff! Or omg i have to heal my fellow priest who has drawn aggro as the main tank is oom! [Removed for Content] shes dead and gone are her buffs and reactive heals! /sigh if only i had the power <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well luke, I am your father... If you only knew the power of the dark side.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i may be extending this out a little but i want to keep my secret (if i could even call it that) which some of u i hope already know a secret for just a little teensy weensy bit longer...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>POWER TRANSFERS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG u mean i can like? chain cast my spells and keep the tank alive indefinitely?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes luke... you can, now join with me and we will rule the galaxy together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i mean to say is HIRE a MB or two (MB = mana '*****' ('*****' = synonym for 'female dog')) AKA a wizard </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On occasion Ive had the pleasure of operating under a two MB condition. It is like havin a super breeze/clarity that ticks for 1k every 30seconds. Altho even then I can burn their power away so fast it is almost insane.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways im maybe going a little offtopic here enjoy my hints and tips and I hope that people do realise that we are a GREAT class but not to whine about us being overpowered etc etc. because as u can see I tie up TWO wizards dps just so i can have mana (also to note is that this may be a difficult to accomplish as wizards are known to enjoy nuking and not slitting their wrists to feed me their power rich lifeblood)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And apologies to anyone who thinks im off topic blah blah</DIV></DIV>

VizP

04-17-2005, 06:54 PM

<div></div>I notice some posters low starred Docimodo's post - what is that? He is quite correct you know. Is that a 'no you're wrong, I know how to play my class and they are just as screwed as we indicate on these forums star?' The truth of the matter is Moorguard has stated previously that while the look very carefully at balancing they 'know' for a fact many players are not playing their class properly and you know what? Both you and I have seen it happen with every single class. You've been in a group when you wonder how in the hells that person levelled as far as they did when they perform as lamely as they do.. and likely then vent about it on these forums. Do defilers have problems? Of course - ward issue is being focussed on, and we do have these broken spells sitting right there (lvl 30 training curse of shielding ward) and we have had issues previous that are 'now fixed (curse of shielding line. stamina debuffs etc). But how are things at this very moment? Well with the knowledge that priest balancing is on the way, I know for a fact defilers are wanted very much at the end game. And everyone that has seen my DPS has pretty much been amazed by it (and this is from a DPS class) i.e 'wow thats some serious DOT action'. Now look at some of the posters on these forums and realise that you are giving them far more than a pinch of salt for their views. You can tell those that have really researched the class from thos ethat don't have a clue and make huge vast assumptions from a half arsed play. For those really have looked into things and have brought things to our attention kudos to you guys. But for the many people that take half a breath to suddenly decree their class as gimped regardless of their level because they really don't seem to get beneath the skin of the class, you won't see any changes as long as SOE notice many players not utilising the full array of the class. The classic example by the way is the shadowknight class. I don't know how much experience you have with grouping with players from this profession but even though they claim to be the most broken class in the game, you will notice that many players right up to lvl 30 and above don't seem to understand the basics of 'taunt' and aggro and just what a tank must do to gain aggro on top of spamming taunt (they have many skills and spells that give them taunt yet many of their players dont think of using them to keep monsters on them). Then they come on these forums and scream blue murder. Do they need help with their class? Yes balancing will and does occur. D many of them fail t have a clue? Take a look for yourself. This is not an attack at anyone but widely shouting that defilers are weak does no one any fabours in game, especially when the top guilds know for a fact defilers are seriously needed in end game for debuffs and we can solo like kings with our dps (or I can anyway). And with ward changes its only going to get better. But to be honest Ive talked with many defilers and even changes many of these dont seem to understand the importance of the sta debuffs and dont even use them! One of the most important spells in our arsenal! I ran across another one who doesnt use the curse of shielding line but in his case they were broken when he got them although he didnt realise their importance now. If you case that one spell with the mana cost, it is almose definitely going to proc once on a average length fight thus redeeming its power cost. But Ive seen it proc many more times therefore becoming the most useful spell cast on that mob (direct damage on opponent or ward on you). Its these little things, everything adds up and the total is *$%#&! good. Many defilers just ignore spells when they don't seemt o udnerstand them (once more look a little dowm, you will see a thread indicating one particular spell a high lvl defiler uses very much and many did not even know could be useful). <div></div><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>