One more question - The Mystic's role in raids [Archive]

View Full Version : One more question - The Mystic's role in raids

dennis

01-18-2007, 06:30 PM

Yet another question. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />What spells should I use when raiding?The MT/MA (usually also the raidleader) and I are discussing it back and forth. I'm usually in the MA-group and a Defiler in MT-group.We think that the best strategy is to use the single ward on the MT, then group ward, single ward, group ward, heal if really neccessary, ward, ward, ward.Sometimes in between wards I debuff too depending on the situation.My point is I rarely heal. I can go through some raids with out healing at all.The MT/MA groups usually consist of a mystic/defiler and a warden/templar and I guess with their reactive heals it works very well.Do you agree with me or are we doing something wrong?I know if it works why change it....but I'd like to know other strategies as well.Thank you very much <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Eepop

01-18-2007, 07:18 PM

<blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote: Time and time again, with every raid group Ive ever talked to, the best warding method is this: MT group shaman: Cast group wards, no single target wards. Non-MT shaman: Cast single target wards. Both debuff like crazy. The MT shaman, whether it is a mystic or a defiler, has plenty of things to worry about, and anything that the Non-MT shaman can cover (Like single target wards) they should.<div></div><hr></blockquote>And do not neglect Torpor, it is youe best tool for healing when used properly (search around the forums a bit to find discussions on how to use torpor).<div></div>

Purcupile

01-18-2007, 07:38 PM

I asked a somewhat similiar question the other day, but I had the class I was asking about confused...thought they were a warden...not a Defiler. Anyway, I learned a lot from the responses even if screwed up the question. But I think the best answer is that the most improtant factor is for the 2 of you to be communicating, formulate a game plan and stick to it. Last night in Inner Sanctum we were well coordinated and although I was not in MT or MA group I held off on casting the ST ward and used the Group ward. I found I had a lot of time to debuff. My first cast after pull was Lamenting Soul, followed immediately by Wail of the Ancient, Bolster, Shrieking Haze...pause to see if any heals or cures were needed then right back to more of the same. When a group member needed heals I had the ST ward available for them as well as all of my heals for MT or group members. Although there were times when I needed extra power there weren't as many as there have been in raids when we were not as coordinated. A few times when the MT Shamman died I was able to use my ST Ward to support the MT until they were back to Health and Power. I liked being in the position to have the ST Ward available for other situations than just warding the MT. In short, I felt much more involved in the success of the raid than I have at some times in the past. I would estimate that well over 50% of my casts were debuffs... I rarely cast damage spells in a full raid unless we are in a "full burn" situation near the end of a MOB and I have sufficient power. I know there are a lot of Mystics who would have different approaches to this challenge and I welcome criticism and suggestions. Purcupile 70 Mystic VALOR/Kithicor Message Edited by Purcupile on 01-18-2007 06:40 AM

Vulking

01-18-2007, 09:19 PM

CRaP!!! I had a big long post set up, and the forum timed out. Oh well, suffice to say, Before the pull; I cast Bolster on the MT and the group ward. During the pull; I cast Wail and Lamenting Souls. Then a series of Cures, Heals and single target wards as needed. This includes casting on the MT, Torpor, and the single target ward. Followed by the 3 other debuffs we have, and then more heals and cures if needed. I try to keep all the debuffs up, but at a minimum I keep Wail and Lamenting up always. Remember, cures can be more important than heals. Many raid mobs both in KoS and EoF have big Dots that they cast, your little 1000+/- point heal is nothing if the MT or your group is getting hit for 4000 per tick from a Dot. I rarely cast the group ward, simply because it takes too long to cast and uses alot of power. Your wasting alot of power casting the group ward. Bolster, Group Ward, (the pull) Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff. Heal, Ward, Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure. Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward. Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure, Cure, Cure, Heal, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Cure Ward......................you get the Idea. Message Edited by Hammarus on 01-18-2007 10:30 AM

SonnyA

01-20-2007, 05:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammarus wrote: I rarely cast the group ward, simply because it takes too long to cast and uses alot of power. Your wasting alot of power casting the group ward. Bolster, Group Ward, (the pull) Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff. Heal, Ward, Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure. Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward. Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure, Cure, Cure, Heal, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Cure Ward......................you get the Idea. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why not use the group ward? My group ward is 344 power to ward 3358 hp (9.76 hp per power). The heal that you apparently cram in as every fourth spell, assuming it's the big heal, is avg. 1510 for 245 power (6.16 hp per power). The heal is instant which means that it can be wasted. The ward stays on to prevent its full amount. So you're NOT wasting a lot of power casting the group ward. You might waste time, but not power. When I'm the healing in our MT group, I never use the instant heals. And I agree with you on the cures. Always cure the tank.

ShadowyStingray

01-21-2007, 01:04 AM

IMHO, not casting the group ward in the MT group just seems like the MT shaman is not 'healing' up to their full potential. The specialty heals priests have (single target or group) are their most power-efficient heals (SonnyA illustrated an example, and I think both of our specialty heals average 9 HP/power vs. the directs which are less), so it seems they should be used as much as possible and only falling back on the direct heals when the situation calls for them (even then, a class like Druids excel here since theirs are much faster to cast). IMHO one of the biggest reasons to always cast the group ward: it stacks with the ST ward. That is important as it is one less thing that can be overwritten by another shaman (less power waste), and when stacked can ideally provide over 5500 HP of mitigated protection for one target (presumably the MT). That's pretty impressive and should buy a few seconds of recovery healing, debuff time, etc. if the tank's health is spiking. I think it really should figure prominently into your casting rotation as often as it is available. I always use it as often as it is available when in the MT group.I also very rarely use direct heals, although my group heal does get use after AE's from time to time.<div></div>

Banditman

01-22-2007, 08:04 PM

That Group Ward can get up to really silly amounts if you get lucky. If you fire off a Ritual (rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and crit a Master 1 Ward I bet it'd be well over 4k.<div></div>

Eileithia

01-22-2007, 08:40 PM

This goes for all Shaman.. if you are in a tanking group (MT or OT) ALWAYS put group ward up if your tank is getting hit.. Yes it's a long cast, but the amount it heals is insane in comparison. Like a previous poster said, direct heals can be wasted. Wards are the number one most efficient form of healing (any healing) as it's only healing what damage is being done. This is also why our wards cost more power per HP than any of the other healing classes special heals. Leave the healing to the druids and clerics as that's what they're good at, and use the time you've been wasting casting direct heals throwing in cures/debuffs/ST ward etc. The biggest problem I find with most healers is that they try to do it all. If you're in a MT group with a cleric and a druid. let them take care of the direct healing while you do other things. Learn to work together as it will be more power efficient for everyone in the long run. Of course if the tank starts getting pounded hard then throw a direct heal or anti-death or something, but generally healing in a raid should be left to the healing classes and not the warding classes.

Loral

01-22-2007, 09:00 PM

We run 2 Mystics in our force. One in the MT group takes mainly care of the wards, the one in the ST group uses his debuffs, and helps on healing/curing as needed. The 2 of them coordinate on Bolster.

Banditman

01-22-2007, 09:35 PM

In a setup like that, you could have problems in a hard fight.What happens if the MT Mystic bites it? Now you have no Wards at all? Yikes.What happens if the off group Mystic dies? No debuffs? Ouch.I find it more effective to split the Warding and debuff duties in case things go badly, horribly, wrong. If you lose one Mystic, you still have some Warding and debuffing going on. If you lose both, well, you're probably wiping anyway.<div></div>

Vulking

01-22-2007, 10:41 PM

<HR> SonnyA wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammarus wrote: I rarely cast the group ward, simply because it takes too long to cast and uses alot of power. Your wasting alot of power casting the group ward. Bolster, Group Ward, (the pull) Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff. Heal, Ward, Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure. Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Ward. Torpor, Cure, Heal, Cure, Cure, Cure, Heal, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Debuff, Heal, Cure Ward......................you get the Idea. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why not use the group ward? My group ward is 344 power to ward 3358 hp (9.76 hp per power). The heal that you apparently cram in as every fourth spell, assuming it's the big heal, is avg. 1510 for 245 power (6.16 hp per power). The heal is instant which means that it can be wasted. The ward stays on to prevent its full amount. So you're NOT wasting a lot of power casting the group ward. You might waste time, but not power. When I'm the healing in our MT group, I never use the instant heals. And I agree with you on the cures. Always cure the tank. <HR> I'm rarely in the MT group, hence the rarity of casting the group ward. But even in the MT group, I think its use in the casting cycle would be low. I like to be able to react fast, being in the middle of casting and having to jump to cancel it sucks. Its good if you got time to get it cast, but I'm spamming cures,heals and single wards so fast, that there isn't time for that kind of delay. So its not about wasted heals or power to hp calculations. Its about reacting as quickly as possible. Time is more valuable.

Loral

01-23-2007, 08:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote: I find it more effective to split the Warding and debuff duties in case things go badly, horribly, wrong. If you lose one Mystic, you still have some Warding and debuffing going on. If you lose both, well, you're probably wiping anyway. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, some fights are hairier... But both Mystics are on the Teamspeak channel (both are officers) and thus dying calls goes fast and the other one knows he has to pick it up. Works nicely up to now, but the offered suggestion has some good points. Will look into it.

CalypsoCGN

01-24-2007, 07:59 AM

Trust me, if your MT coercer has the coercive healing AA you better cast the groupward every time it is up...:smileywink: with all the adornments and coercive healing a crit groupward is over 5k...well over that...combined with a ~2.3k single ward you can stack over 7k on your tank...and that either gives you enough time to (re)debuff most of the mobs or to cure...but it defenitely cut down the damage output on the MT for a good bunch...Coercive healing is the MT-shammies best friend :smileytongue:<div></div>