Single target ward diminishing Wardens effectiveness?

[Purcupile]

<DIV>We have recently gained a new Warden, who has previously used their main character (a scout class) and has been very highly regarded in the guild.  Now that they have begun using their Warden (usually included in the MT group) has been sending me requests to not use my Single Target Ward, saying it creates a power drain on the other healers.  I had never been asked not to use it before and I am wondering if perhaps all of the Wardens spells might not be at the Master level, or if the Warden's healing efforts are simply struggling to make a dent in the effectivness of the Mystic's wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purcupile</DIV>

[morningmists]

<DIV>this is total rubbish</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>shaman wards have absolutely nothing to do with warden heals at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only problem is maybe he doesn't know what he's doing and is trying to blame others for his overhealing waste?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Banditman]

The Warden is smoking some sort of substance that is damaging their ability to reason.Wards should be a Warden's best friend.  While a Ward exists, the HoT they cast has time to regenerate the lost health on the MT.  Your Warden has some sort of complex I think.<div></div>

[Oldlore]

The only time I find wards annoying on my warden is when the mob is doing so little damage to the MT that the wards pretty much cover it all.  But then I can just nuke/dot etc so it's not a big deal.  Of course if the MTs health is actually dropping then my warden can really heal for a ton...just when it's needed :p<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>It's not really wasting other ppl's power... but it does actualyl suck quite a bit for a warden who's with a good shammy but who wants to.. y'know.. be a healer since that's what we are.... Idk anyhting about the op or his guildy but talking from personal experience, I can see why he would want that (note that I don't necessarily agree with the request cuz I am a true raider and place the guild/raid over myself): the fact is it is just not FUN at all for someone who's a real healer at heart to play as a warden with a good shammy and/or cleric and that's simply because the only other thing a warden can do besides heal is dps.. there's no debuffs for us to fall back on and keep ourselves busy with. I mean just imagine that you guys went on raids and couldn't do anything at all but dps day in and day out on every raid you went on; it gets very tiring and does start making one question "why am I playing as a healer at all?"I'm pretty sure a lot (mebbe even most) of you won't really "get" it, but I figured I'd just post a point of view I rarely, if ever, see anyone state... dunno why though, mebbe I'm just weird or mebbe I'm just in such a good guild and most don't ever come across this issue. I don't even know if that really is the case in the op's siutation, but I just figured I'd stick it out there just for a different view of things.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class=date_text>01-17-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 AM</span>

[panther55]

Ditto what everyone else said. If you are handling the healing with your single ward then that is ideal because wards are the first line of defense. Wardens in a raid are the "Oh Crap" healers because Wards and Reactives get there chance before our regens.<div></div>

[AziBam]

Like Banditman said, wards and HoTs are a great combo.  Don't see the problem.  The only time the HoT would be "wasted" would be if the tank was already at full health with the ward up.  How often does that happen on tough content for any length of time?  Besides, a single target ward will get eaten in a heartbeat against raid mobs.  You stop casting that and you are doing the entire raid a disservice.  If he is worried about the heal parse then just tell him to get used to it.  When the AEs start flying he'll get his chance to shine and make the heal parse spike out of sight.  <div></div>

[exxxie]

Sounds like your warden should have stuck to his scout. =)<div></div>

[SpeedSla]

<P>Defiler is not a warden purc.</P> <P>Defiler is the evil version of your mystic.<BR>The Defiler is all T7 mastered.<BR><BR>As the out of mt group shaman you are overwriting the defiler (who is in mt group)</P> <P>As an outside shaman you should concentrate on group wards, single target heals, debuffs and all that great stuff.</P> <P>I don't play a shaman but Banditman and your peers should be able to confirm the overwrites and wasting of wards and effort.</P> <P>Where's the icecream!</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by SpeedSlave on <span class=date_text>01-17-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Aienaa]

<P>Ok, how about trying again....  The person the OP was talking about is a DEFILER, not a warden....  The DEFILER in question is in the Main Tank group, while the OP (the MYSTIC) was not in the Main Tank group....  </P> <P>So despite all the flaming, it is not warden regens or heals that the OP is talking about, it's Single Target WARDS overwritting each other...  IE the MT group DEFILER casts a Single Target Ward on the MT, which is overwritten by the OP who is also casting single target wards on the MT, thus resulting in wasted power...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin / Parody - 70 Troubador / Ninnor - 70 Bruiser  and for fun  Strede - 47 Defiler</P>

[Eepop]

Ok, that makes sense....  BUT BUT BUT... Time and time again, with every raid group Ive ever talked to, the best warding method is this: MT group shaman: Cast group wards, no single target wards. Non-MT shaman:  Cast single target wards. Both debuff like crazy. The MT shaman, whether it is a mystic or a defiler, has plenty of things to worry about, and anything that the Non-MT shaman can cover (Like single target wards) they should. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Exactly.MT group Shaman handles Group Wards, outside Shaman handles ST Wards.  This way the power consumption  and regeneration of BOTH Shaman is utilized and maximized.In cases where there are intense bursts of damage (usually in encounters with multiple Epic class mobs) then both Shaman simply spam ST Wards since they will likely be eaten immediately.It requires communication and coordination between different Shaman on any raid to maximize the performance of both.<div></div>

[Purcupile]

<DIV>Speedslave is correct.  I should have stated the other healer is a Defiler...not a Warden.  I was at work and got messages from two different healers mixed up.  Sorry for the ruckus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is that I seem to be overwriting the Defiler in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purcupile</DIV>

[Eepop]

If the out of group shaman is overwriting the MT group shamans single target wards too much, the answer is for the MT shaman to not worry so much about single target warding...and do the million other things they could be doing during that time. <div></div>

[AziBam]

    <blockquote><hr>Purcupile wrote:<div>Speedslave is correct.  I should have stated the other healer is a Defiler...not a Warden.  I was at work and got messages from two different healers mixed up.  Sorry for the ruckus.</div> <div> </div> <div>The problem is that I seem to be overwriting the Defiler in the MT group.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Purcupile</div><hr></blockquote>Darn you IT people who actually get to sneak in and play a bit at work!!!  I gotta get me one of them thar jobs!  <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>Purcupile wrote:<div>Speedslave is correct.  I should have stated the other healer is a Defiler...not a Warden.  I was at work and got messages from two different healers mixed up.  Sorry for the ruckus.</div> <div> </div> <div>The problem is that I seem to be overwriting the Defiler in the MT group.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Purcupile</div><hr></blockquote>What you mean to say is the Defiler is over-writing you.  He needs to get with the other 1000 or so things he could be doing and leave the ST Wards to you.</div>

[ShadowyStingray]

<div><blockquote><hr>Purcupile wrote:<div>Speedslave is correct.  I should have stated the other healer is a Defiler...not a Warden.  I was at work and got messages from two different healers mixed up.  Sorry for the ruckus.</div> <div> </div> <div>The problem is that I seem to be overwriting the Defiler in the MT group.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Purcupile</div><hr></blockquote>Is that really a bad thing that you are overwriting the MT Defiler's ward?  Do you and the MT Defiler end the fight with power left?  If so, then what's the problem?  Is the MT Defiler getting EVERY debuff he/she can cast off in between spamming their group ward, ST ward?  I hope this isn't related to any parsing...The tactics Epop and Banditman (and probably others time again in other posts on these boards) described obviously make the most sense: you should be free to cast any and all spells that are castable raid-wide, which includes the ST ward.  The MT group shaman should be focusing on things that cannot be cast raid-wide (group ward, Spiritual Circle, etc.), along with debuffing and should only see it fit to 'step in' with ST wards when the fight is going bad since in those cases in raids, ST wards get blown down as fast as they are cast, therefore, nobody's effort is 'wasted'.</div>

[Eileithia]

<DIV>Speaking from a Defilers point of view.. I agree with what other have been saying here.. when in the MT group there are a LOT of things you need to worry about.. Group wards, CURES, Debuffs, all kinds of other junk etc.. Your Defiler should only be casting his ST ward when in the MT group IF the tank is getting pounded for about 2k a hit.. if that's the case you don't have to worry about overwriting wards as they're pounded in 1-2 shots anyways.. You may want to co-ordinate with your other shaman so you're casting between eachother's re-fresh to get the maximum benefit on tough encounters.. IE.. Have them cast.. wait 2-3 seconds, cast yours and continue to cast it as soon as it's back up.. that will give you the most benefit, with the least amount of overwriting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defilers primary job in the MT group should be group ward and cures.. then Debuffs.. Defilers have a LOT of debuffs to cast so there's no way that they could get bored doing it.. (8 in total if you want to lay EVERYTHING on 4-6 if you want the minimum) If you have multiple defilers and mystics on the raid, then work out who's going to take care of what etc..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eepop]

Exactly.  The overall point being that responsibility is divided based on two ideas: 1) If only one person can do something (for MT group read: group special heal, cure effectively) then that is that persons responsibility 2) If multiple people can do something, it rests on the shoulders of the person that has the least responsibility otherwise <div></div>

[Banditman]

And also that it applies between all Shaman, Defiler and Mystic.  Regardless of which is in the MT group, whoever is there has other things to worry about.Finally, by dividing that duty among two players, you leverage the power pools and power regen of BOTH players fully against the mob instead of just one.<div></div>

[Eepop]

Well it really applies equally to anything in the game that more than one person can do, from the specific example here of healing using wards, to debuffing, to DPS. Theres room for variation, but for the most part, a good division of labor provides good benefit.  Then you leave it up to the players to know when stepping over the borders are appropriate. With a good division of labor, the MT shaman won't need to single target ward most of the time, and when he does, it will be after he has handled his other responsibilities. <div></div>