Mystics, Slow Heals, Shotty Class

[Mordimeir The Drag]

<DIV>I started playinga  mystic in the begining because i was told by a friend that they rocked in EQ1.... Now after playing a mystic for almost a year non stop leveling and trying to raid for gear i find we are a pretty much useless class. our dps is slow and not effetive. Our heals/wards are slow. and our debuffs are to slow and to many. Everything about the mystic class says we do not rock any more. Furys can top dps charts. and wardens/templars can top healing charts.. the only way we do any good is with wards but defilers wards are more powerful making use useless. i am hearby giving up my mystic till we can at least become a better class at something.</DIV>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<DIV>I love the class...  guess you just aren't doing something right.</DIV>

[Marcinw0]

Well i am almost always right behind our templar in MT group in healings parse so about wards and healing i cant agree, according our offensive abilities just try to work on aa's and you will be good - i am on pvp server and i like our new melee skills <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.ArgarothMystic of ProphecyNagafen<div></div>

[DrkS]

You must be doing something wrong man.  I am always atop my guild's healing parse, usually by about double the next highest healer.  In order for a reactive or over time heal to *actually* heal, a ward must not be up.  Shamans are cheap cheap cheap on a healing parse, and should always be on top.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordimeir The Dragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>the only way we do any good is with wards but<STRONG> defilers wards are more powerful making use useless</STRONG>. i am hearby giving up my mystic till we can at least become a better class at something.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'll clear this one up for you.. our wards (Single target, and group) are IDENTICAL. Both in power and in casting/re-casting time. Only difference is we have Spiritual Circle while you have the "crappy" badger pet (Yes we all know it's crap, and I agree with you all)... You also have Torpor, and Oberon.. we got power regen (Forced Cannibalize) and a Dot/Power tap (Malestrom). As for casting times for heals. Defilers match Templars for having the most potent, but slowest casting heals. in most cases, by the time I start casting my heal spell the druid in the group already has the tank back to full.</P> <P>What Defilers do better is buff HP and we have a nice 0 power cost debuff (Tendrills) that is only useful on the MT.</P> <P>As far as overall healing goes Mystics and Defilers SHOULD always top the parse if they are in the MT group. There are exceptions to this when large AE's go off etc, but most of the time it should be the MT Shammy.</P>

[Banditman]

I too have zero problems absolutely taking over a heal parse when I'm in the MT group.OP - you are doing something wrong.  Dreadfully.  Terribly.  Horribly.  Wrong.<div></div>

[AziBam]

<P>I hopped in a pick-up raid (I know../shudder) in Temple of Scale.  I was constantly being harassed by the Templar and Fury (no wardens on raid) with me in the MT group that I wasn't even giving them a chance to get heals in.  All in good nature of course.  Not sure what lvl the OP is but torpor then a single ward is a phenomenal combo.  Torpor eats the damage, anything over the ward component of torpor gets sucked up by Aegis while torpor heals and regens ward, etc.  Also, stacking a single target ward followed by group ward is a whole lot of points for a debuffed mob to try to eat through.  Heals?  You mean direct heals?  What are those?  Ooooooh...those things that have a nice picture of a hand on my hotbar...ah...yeah I guess they are slow.  Other than group heal I really don't have to use anything other than wards very often at all.  </P> <P> </P> <P>And yes Dunntz (sp?) the badger does suck compared to your circle pet.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     </P>

[Vulking]

<P>Re-emphasis that; <STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>When you are in the MT group!</FONT></STRONG> </P> <P>Otherwise I  sympathize with the OP.</P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammarus wrote:<BR> <P>Re-emphasis that; <STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>When you are in the MT group!</FONT></STRONG> </P> <P>Otherwise I  sympathize with the OP.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Defilers are just as, if not more, shafted out of the MT group than a Mystic.. Thankfully a lot of the EOF content requires multiple tanks.

[Banditman]

You won't have any problems outside the MT group either if you simply coordinate with the Shaman who IS in the MT group.Generally, we work it so that the MT group Shaman is using his Group Ward, while outside Shaman is using ST Ward.  The only time we have our MT Shaman worry with ST Wards is situations where there are tons of mobs that are going to eat thru Wards quickly.Yea, I'll parse a little lower outside the MT group, but I also have time to throw on some DoT's and perhaps a few nukes.  When you aren't in the MT group, remember to add your damage to your heal numbers to get your overall contribution.You'll find that Shaman are, by and large, some of the most valuable members of your raid team.The only time I've ever seen problems is when we had 3 Shaman on a raid.  Stacking starts to go downhill at that point.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<P>We are usually Shaman heavy on raids (Most times 3, sometimes 4) It hasn't hindered us from doing any content, and we all work together.. Being able to lock down multiple adds with our debuffs very quickly does help us, and having a group ward for every group is great for when the nasty AE's go off.. We also have 4 VERY competent shaman, so we know our roles, and work with what we have to our benefit.</P> <P>It probably helps that our raid leader (who is also a guild leader) is a Mystic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Our Heal parses are kind of funny too.. it's usually Shaman, Shaman, Shaman, MT Cleric/Druid.. The other healers get all excited when they beat a shammy on the parse in a long fight :smileytongue:</P>

[Banditman]

I haven't found Wards to be very useful at all for AE's.  Dogdog's Wards help a little bit, but Group Wards are the yuck for AE's.  Usually only protects one person.  Maybe a person and a half.If you are going to wind up casting a group direct anyway, why not save the power from the GW and just use the direct?<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<P>I agree.. it does depend on the AE. If it's a MASSIVE AE.. saving one or 2 people can be a good thing.. Our guild has pretty high resists on all of our members as well. and there are quite a few AE's that that pound the ward, but do minimal damage to the group in the end.. Also if you're in a melee group with a mob that has a damage shield, it can let the melee go nutz for a bit and not have to worry about killing them selves..</P> <P>I guess it really depends on your setup and what group you are in (melee / caster etc..) but I will almost religously throw up group ward before a known AE to save healing in the end..</P>

[Banditman]

See, that's what I'm saying . . . I don't think you are saving healing . . . lemme illustrate . . . Dealing with a moderate AE of 2500ish damage, you throw up a Group Ward of 3500 HP before it goes off.  Two members of the group resist / avoid the AE entirely, leaving 4 people to get hit.The first person takes no damage, the Ward gets it.  The second person takes 1000 HP of damage.  Numbers 3 and 4 are each down 2500 HP.Obviously, you're going to toss out a group direct heal here, with three people down HP.  First heal takes one person back to full, but 3 and 4 are still 1000 ish HP down.  So you toss out group direct #2 to clean that up.Now, same AE, no group Ward.  No one resists.  Everyone takes 2500 HP of damage.Gonna take two group direct heals to put everyone back to right.See?  No difference in overall healing.  The only difference is that you didn't waste the power (or casting time) that went into the Group Ward in the second situation.<div></div>

[Vulking]

<P>I don't even bother with the group ward anymore even though I hate having icons on my hotbar that I don't use, far to slow on casting, eat too much power, and rarely save the mages and light armor classes anyway.  I cast it once, just before pull, otherwise it just sits there.</P> <P> </P>

[Expiate]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mordimeir The Dragon wrote:<div>I started playinga  mystic in the begining because i was told by a friend that they rocked in EQ1.... Now after playing a mystic for almost a year non stop leveling and <font color="#ff0000">trying to raid for gear i find we are a pretty much useless class. our dps is slow and not effetive. Our heals/wards are slow. and our debuffs are to slow and to many. Everything about the mystic class says we do not rock any more</font>. Furys can top dps charts. and wardens/templars can top healing charts.. the only way we do any good is with wards but defilers wards are more powerful making use useless. i am hearby giving up my mystic till we can at least become a better class at something.</div><hr></blockquote>speak for yourself ; )</div>

[TheSpin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>See, that's what I'm saying . . . I don't think you are saving healing . . . lemme illustrate . . . <BR><BR>Dealing with a moderate AE of 2500ish damage, you throw up a Group Ward of 3500 HP before it goes off.  Two members of the group resist / avoid the AE entirely, leaving 4 people to get hit.<BR><BR>The first person takes no damage, the Ward gets it.  The second person takes 1000 HP of damage.  Numbers 3 and 4 are each down 2500 HP.<BR><BR>Obviously, you're going to toss out a group direct heal here, with three people down HP.  First heal takes one person back to full, but 3 and 4 are still 1000 ish HP down.  So you toss out group direct #2 to clean that up.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Now, same AE, no group Ward.  No one resists.  Everyone takes 2500 HP of damage.<BR><BR>Gonna take two group direct heals to put everyone back to right.<BR><BR><BR>See?  No difference in overall healing.  The only difference is that you didn't waste the power (or casting time) that went into the Group Ward in the second situation.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is kinda off-topic, but I find this really interesting to hear after reading all the complaints about AoE healing on the inquisitor boards.</P> <P>All the raiders over there complain about the group reactives because you guys just toss up a group ward before the fact and druids toss up a group regen after the fact and it basically nullifies the aoe damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>It looks like my inquisitor friends aren't as informed as they should be when it comes to aoe priest heals.</P>

[Banditman]

Aye - Shaman are really in trouble when it comes to AE damage.  We have to work really hard after the fact with only our group direct and perhaps a little help from our pet.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Aye - Shaman are really in trouble when it comes to AE damage.  We have to work really hard after the fact with only our group direct and perhaps a little help from our pet.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is where druids shine.. Having only one group heal does have it's disadvantages.. As for your previous post Bandit, I guess being a Defiler, I rarely/never have to worry about power. I personally leave a group ward up all the time just incase.. if it's a small AE or the group has good resists, a lot of times the ward will cover it.. if not, I let the druid do the healing.. We usually raid with at least 2 healers in a group except for the mage group with only one Fury in it..

[Mordimeir The Drag]

I have no problem toping the healign chart, infact i am usualy 45% of the heals in a raid with my wards and heals.. its just that our dps is really lacking making soling for quests very dificult. i do like my mystic but i dont like our dps. oberon barrier is an awesome ward and when mastered and aaspeced i belive its the most powerful ward in the game. i never run out of power because our heals and wards take very little we are a good class but i never recive any recognition in raids for having the most heals. i dont know maybe its my guild or maybe its just that we ward and no one can tell tha we are actualy doing the most

[Moonspinn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordimeir The Dragon wrote:<BR> I have no problem toping the healign chart, infact i am usualy 45% of the heals in a raid with my wards and heals.. its just that our dps is really lacking making soling for quests very dificult. i do like my mystic but i dont like our dps. oberon barrier is an awesome ward and when mastered and aaspeced i belive its the most powerful ward in the game. i never run out of power because our heals and wards take very little we are a good class but i never recive any recognition in raids for having the most heals. i dont know maybe its my guild or maybe its just that we ward and no one can tell tha we are actualy doing the most<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I bet in your guild there is at least one person that parses dps just about every fight. Ask them to parse heals every once in a while and report them. When my guild leader started looking at total zone wide healing parses for raids I had to explain to her that it wasn't the other healers slacking it was just the nature of wards. MT mystic is always #1 and unless the content is trivial the MA mystic is #2 (we don't have a defiler).

[Syltara]

generally, i think that anyone who just dimisses a entire class as doody simply isn't playing his/her toon right. i played my way to level 50 with a monk (and an occasional assassin) and never had any problems keeping anyone alive. we could duo or trio most anything, even HQ bosses.now i mostly duo with a brigand with the same effectiveness. we can cut through zones that full groups wipe in. granted she's a [Removed for Content]'d out brig who can tank like a "real" tank but i still have to keep her up. <span>:smileytongue:</span>in raids, i don't really worry about topping the healing parse but instead focus on warding, buffing and debuffing. honestly never noticed whether mystics have "slow" heals (in comparison with other healer classes) but i do know that we have power-efficient heals; and in raids or hard battles...it's all about the mana.i do think that mystics tend to be sucky soloers (unless you configured your toon for nuking, rather than healing). fighting tends to be about outlasting the mob rather than actually killing them lol.overall though, mystics are a balanced class and my experience playing one has always been positive.cheers!P.S. never heard anyone complaining about "too many debuffs" before <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Dragmoon]

<P>Uhm well.... I love playing my mystic.. and as a raidgeared and raid aa spected mystic I can proudly say I LOVE my Mystic...[Removed for Content]</P> <P>We can always be on top parse if we want and if we are in the MT group.. ( I'm also in top parse sometimes with not being in the MT group, depends on mob attks&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we can debuff a mob almost to the cap, we can cure fast and good ( if you arent slacking Mordimeir ) We have good usefull buffs ( I know you guys will rip me appart ) and we are equal to defilers in usefullnes... Although I have to agree that a Defiler fits better to a MT group but.... [Removed for Content] why does everyone wants to be in the MT group ?? Does it give you all a longer d.... or bigger t....'s ?? I'm also proud to keep the MA alive or our squishies our in whatever group I am... even a MT group with full health is almost dead when other groups die on a raid.</P> <P> </P> <P>SO I sum it up!!</P> <P>Mystics rock, Defilers rock and sorry Mordimeir... you are doing something wrong...</P> <P>but instead flaming you even more for that... If you arent happy playing a mystic.. choose another class.. cause... EQ2 should be fun.... cause its a game</P> <P> </P> <P>Dragmoon </P> <P> </P> <P>Ps: ya  I know.. my english f...kn  sucks</P>

[Dragmoon]

<P>And ya.... our DPS sucks overall if you have raid AA... it can rock soloing with the right Equipment and the right AA's...</P> <P>We can't solo like the classes with root/snare/putinwhateveryouwant but we can do it ok.... If you are in a duo you can beat many mobs [Removed for Content].... remember.. this is a MMORPG and not a solo one. Ask your friends for help for some help or just in OOC.... everyone loves to have a Shammy in group cause we rock! :smileyhappy:</P> <P>And ya... overall soloing normal [I cannot control my vocabulary] is pretty slow.. but also super safe.... just takes time... </P> <P> </P> <P>Dragmoon</P>

[Finora]

<P>I don't know what you are doing with your mystic to make him seem so horrible, I have absolutely no problem out healing the guild templar and druids on our raids. I very rarely outdps the druids, but that really isn't my main concern when on a raid. I'm there to debuff and heal, and I think I do a decent job of it. If I get to do some DPS as well, fantastic, but my primary goal is to keep the MT up and taunting and the mobs as weak and vunerable as I can make them.</P> <P>I solo quite well (like Dragmoon said) it is very safe. I'm not doing lvl 70^^^ named or anything but I don't really have any trouble getting stuff dead usually before or shortly after bolster wears off solo, even if it is a green ^^^. There are exceptions to that of course, but for the most part it is no problem.</P><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[Banditman]

If you actually take the time to look at it though, Mystics do TREMENDOUS amounts of DPS in a raid.It would take a couple weeks to see it, but do this:Take a fight like Uncaged Alzid or Alzid Prime . . . something non-threatening but with a decent amount of HP.  The first week, you stick Wail of the Ancients and Eidolon on the mob.  Full STA debuffs.The next week, NO STA DEBUFFS at all.Now, find the total HP for each week and figure how much "damage" you did by subtracting the smaller number from the larger one.  Add that to your DPS for that fight and see where you're at.  I think you'll find that Mystics do a very significant amount of DPS, but that it's "hidden" in the mechanics of how they achieve it.<div></div>

[Thunderthyze]

<P>Is this the be all and end all of being a Mystic? Where we appear on a heal parse??</P> <P>Guys....other classes are always competing to be top of the dps parse with the effect that MT's often lose aggro. If all you are doing is concentrating on healing/warding then you are only doing half a job.</P> <P>Our MT group usually consists of a Templar, Fury and Mystic and we co-ordinate our efforts for the good of the raid. After the initial pull I might spend much of my time curing and debuffing. Often it is those debuffs that will make the difference in a tight situation, certainly timely cures are VERY important when the DOT can mean curtains for the tank.</P> <P>If all we are doing is competing with the other healing classes to see how many heals or wards we can spam then shame on you. You have NO IDEA what the heck co-ordinated gameplay is all about.</P>

[ecoskii]

<P>Interested on the comment about co-ordinated gameplay - our perspective is shammies are near to 100% mana efficient healers therefore I focus (MT Mystic) on ward and debuff, I rarely ever heal and only race the other MT healers for the critical insta-kill cures.  I'll always top the zone-wide heals - by miles on KoS raids, only just on eof zones where the tank is below full health a lot more of the time.   Our MT Temp is a server-wide famous slacker... happy to let him have an easy time.</P> <P>Bandit - i've never tried to work out our 'lost' dps via our STA debuffs - any idea how much they are worth.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ecoskii - 70 Mystic</P> <P>Unity - Splitpaw</P> <P> 'Educating tanks one day at a time.... +400hp from a defiler doesn't mean you have a bigger ^&&*......'</P> <P> </P>

[Banditman]

Is the be all end all of a Priest to be a high value healer . . . uh . . . yes?You cannot "measure" cures.  Debuff measurements are spotty at best.  You can however measure heals / wards.  Wards do count as heals btw.Everyone in the raid is expected to debuff.  Not just Priests, not just Mystics.  Everyone.  I don't see where it's even worth mentioning since it's in everyone's job description.  In fact, we usually have a Brigand dispatch the mob right off the pull so we can get it debuffed more quickly.  Our mobs typically don't get more than a swing or two of full strength attacks on our MT.I don't have any idea how much the STA debuffs are worth anymore, I just haven't looked at it because I feel that my value as a Mystic is not defined by it.  However, for those who are looking for their DPS numbers, they are not providing the full story if they ignore those STA debuffs.  They are in fact significant.<div></div>

[browsy]

lol if you cant make a heal parse with a mystic then your probably should go play wow....because they are amazing, and their wards are superior to defilers simply because they have more, thsi is made up for by a slight onealty to the direct heals, but haveing a replenishing ward by far out does that imo....now lets taslk about bolster....a useless class? hmm....

[Zeltaria]

<ul><li>""<span style="color: #cc0000">I don't even bother with the group ward anymore even though I hate having icons on my hotbar that I don't use, far to slow on casting, eat too much power, and rarely save the mages and light armor classes anyway.  I cast it once, just before pull, otherwise it just sits there.""</span></li></ul><p>Wow, that's really.... erm... something....</p><p>1. I always use my group ward, I'll use it over the single target ward most of the time.</p><p>2. I NEVER cast it before a pull... that's just super bad agro waiting to happen, which usually = dead mystic before anyone can blink.</p><p>3. Sometimes a mage can't be saved.... not even the fastest healer can do it ALL of the time, and that's just another reason that GROUP wards RULE. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  besides, if they get agro from over nuking they deserve to die a few times anyways. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So, wow, I didnt realize mystics were a shotty class...... I guess I have all the people who compliment me all the time for being a great healer fooled! *L*</p>

[Archelius]

<p>If you still think a Mystic is a shotty class here is some info...</p><p>Have you seen a Mystic with 100AA spec for DPS in a duel?</p><p>Take on T7 fully fabled Monks, Beserkers, Paladin and Swashy?</p><p>It's hilarious when you beat their [Removed for Content] in a duel all the time.</p><p>A lilttle information to pass out to my fellow mystics.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>