An interesting development . . .

[Banditman]

For quite some time, it's been pretty much "law" that you don't pre-Ward your MT in a raid situation.  Bad, bad things have happened in the past as a result of that practice.Recently, we had a pull where I was willing to sacrifice myself in the hopes of cutting down an initial damage spike that was just "too much".  Funny thing happened.  I lived.I had 4000+ points of Ward on our MT pre-pull.  He pulled the mob and ALL of it got ate.  The mob never even looked my way.Being the curious type, I started pre-Warding in an attempt to get aggro . . . and I couldn't do it.Now, all that said, I'm working with a very good tank.  All his spells are Master 1, and he pops those very quickly, usually before he's even got the mob(s) positioned.  Nevertheless, I really expected to eat an epic class butt kicking at some point yet never did.  Been at it for a couple raids now and it sure does make a difference in that initial spike of damage.Anyone else give this a try recently?<div></div>

[LadyKahlan]

<DIV>I have also noticed this, especially in Emerald Hall, I preward just like the good old days. Yes the MT is mastered, I do see some of the mobs coming for me but they turn around and  head back to tank. </DIV>

[thedu]

<div></div>Did the type of tank matter? How is the tank pulling?  Body, hex doll, ranged, taunts, etc.? Have you tried it with anyone who is not using mastered spells?  Torpor? Etheral Aegis? Oberon?I'll try it tonight in some instance runs and see what happens..<div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Specteral]

I've done this a few times on and off (some pulls I'm told to heavily pre-ward, stacking torpor, aegis, and umbral).  When he's not ready for it or we get an add on the pull, it bounces and I'm a dead healer (well, sometimes they manage to save me, but not 100%).  He is a Paladin using a mix of Ad3/Master skills, and when he is ready and we don't get much addage it works pretty well.<div></div>

[LizzyIzzy2]

<DIV>I have also noticed recently that prewarding does not seem to pull aggro like it used to. I tried it last night doing instances in LF and Loping Plains. I used Ethereal Aegis and Runic Aegis as prewards. I had my cursor over Sonorous Spirits to click just in case the mobs came down on me but they never even got close. I have not tried this in a raid situation since we have been told repeatedly not to preward....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Banditman]

In my case, most are body pulls.  The newer raid zones aren't very forgiving to a puller who uses aggro skills right away.I've only done this with a Berzerker tank, but I assume that a similarly equipped Guardian could do the same or better.I was even able to pre-Ward our Zerker when he was popping traps in Deathtoll provided he had his unlocked taunt up.This all came about because we no longer have a Monk to Tsunami pull for us.<div></div>

[TalonFett]

<DIV>I've always pre-warded and never gotten agro.   The only time you should is if the MT isnt pulling with a taunt.  If you preward and then the MT bodies pulls or uses some low damage hit, get ready you gonna get killed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I am spoiled with a great MT, but pretty much for all of T5-T7  I have prewarded.  Using  Etheral Aegis and Umbral Lit both, and Bolster up on pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you are pulling agro with a pre-ward tell your tank to taunt more.</DIV>

[Eepop]

I havent gotten a whole lot of raiding in with it being the holidays, but I did notice in the one raid I did this weekend that I seemed to be getting less aggro over all. We were learning a new mob, and he was kicking out butts pretty soundly, and it really stuck out that the death order after the MT dropped was alot different than pre-EoF raiding.  Whereas normally, I would be in the top 5 to die, I was now dying 15th to 20th. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:For quite some time, it's been pretty much "law" that you don't pre-Ward your MT in a raid situation.  Bad, bad things have happened in the past as a result of that practice.Recently, we had a pull where I was willing to sacrifice myself in the hopes of cutting down an initial damage spike that was just "too much".  Funny thing happened.  I lived.I had 4000+ points of Ward on our MT pre-pull.  He pulled the mob and ALL of it got ate.  The mob never even looked my way.Being the curious type, I started pre-Warding in an attempt to get aggro . . . and I couldn't do it.Now, all that said, I'm working with a very good tank.  All his spells are Master 1, and he pops those very quickly, usually before he's even got the mob(s) positioned.  Nevertheless, I really expected to eat an epic class butt kicking at some point yet never did.  Been at it for a couple raids now and it sure does make a difference in that initial spike of damage.Anyone else give this a try recently?<div></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest I've always pre-warded.  In the past I have died my fair share of deaths, but as my raid tanks got used to the idea they handled it better and better. Very recently tho, you might be right in that aggro has become even less of an issue as on a Labs raid this weekend I only ever pulled aggro once.Ironically, however, some Defilers have been complaining about aggro: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=12710</div>

[-Kylgar-]

<DIV>I have always pre-warded the MT and there are different situations where "bad things" happen. I never had problems using only Ethereal Aegis on pull. When I try to cast Umbral Liturgy BEFORE Ethereal Aegis there is a big chance for me to get agro. Nothing happens when I cast Umbral Liturgy AFTER Ethereal Aegis (most of the times).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a big difference depending on what the tank is pulling: single mob or a group of mobs. After all I think that there is a big chance to get agro when  you use Umbral Liturgy against a group of mobs. It will always depends on how resistant to taunts are the mobs too :smileywink:</DIV>

[ecoskii]

<P>I'm always pre-warding in group stuff as we can take reasonable damage now.</P> <P>In raids I have started to slip into pre-warding occasionally particularly if we are using a monk pull - my reasoning is, if the tank's taunt is resisted the mob will stay on the monk, if the taunt isn't resisted then i have no problem anyway.  It does feel as if something has changed though - i used to be voted 'most likely to die' but this has been happening far less recently and i have still been standing until towards the end of wipes even though I parse heal the highest.  Think i may have a little chat to the MT (guard) about this as a defiler was booted a couple of months ago for prewarding...</P>

[Ghartan]

<DIV>Like others ... our raid force always wards before the pull (we have more than one mystic so who does it depends on who is in MT group).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While that sometimes results in a whacking, our raid force healers are good about protecting the mystic in the MT group; eg, they heal the mystic as well as the MT on the pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can't say it works 100% of the time but certainly often enough to make it the norm for pulling</DIV>

[thedu]

Tried this last night in both OOB and CoV; and it's really hard to say.  In OOB it seemed not to work so well where as in CoV I didn't have as much trouble. The tank was a SK sometimes bodypulling other times not.  The only thing I think of right now is that I seemed to pull more aggro when it was grouped mobs as opposed to single.<div></div>

[Loral]

<P>Yes, we usually have a healer outside MT group focus on the MT Mystic for the first 5 seconds of a fight. We never stopped pre-warding, to the dismay of our MT-Mystic's repair bill. (:smileywink: to my wife)</P> <P>Also, Templars now have an EoF achivement that drops the threat <EM>position</EM> of any non-fighter group member that gets hit. So technically, the Mystic should only get hit once if the Templar has that spell up (5 min recast top of my head). Can help, somewhat.</P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>For quite some time, it's been pretty much "law" that you don't pre-Ward your MT in a raid situation.  Bad, bad things have happened in the past as a result of that practice.<BR><BR>Recently, we had a pull where I was willing to sacrifice myself in the hopes of cutting down an initial damage spike that was just "too much".  Funny thing happened.  I lived.<BR><BR>I had 4000+ points of Ward on our MT pre-pull.  He pulled the mob and ALL of it got ate.  The mob never even looked my way.<BR><BR>Being the curious type, I started pre-Warding in an attempt to get aggro . . . and I couldn't do it.<BR><BR>Now, all that said, I'm working with a very good tank.  All his spells are Master 1, and he pops those very quickly, usually before he's even got the mob(s) positioned.  Nevertheless, I really expected to eat an epic class butt kicking at some point yet never did.  Been at it for a couple raids now and it sure does make a difference in that initial spike of damage.<BR><BR>Anyone else give this a try recently?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I pre-ward all the time except on mobs that are notorious for resisting taunts like drakes in the Labs. I usually pre-ward with my single target ward and cast the group ward when the tank starts to pull. Of course,  we've actually been using both a defiler and a mystic in the MT group on raids lately so when that happens we alternate wards.

[AndorDehay]

hrmmm i have completely given up pre-warding except when the tank to pulliing things to fast for my comfort.Then i torpor his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to slow him down. . .It is kinda funny watching him run in slow motion with 8 mobs tailing him.OMG, all the mobs have snare in this zone, so unbalanced! this suxzorkinda like casting water walking right before the jump down the waterfall in TT.lol

[Jora']

<DIV>Like some have said its very much dependent on how the tank is pulling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If he/she is puling with a hex doll or bodypulling you can bet 9/10 the mob will coming running for a mystic who prewarded, a good tank will catch the mob before it does get to the mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i found the most beautiful thing about any raid pull is not prewarding at all.. but timing a group ward so that when the tank pulls, the big group ward lands < 1 second after the encounter is locked, then can immediately follow up with the single target ward, then debuffs to ward approximately 5.5k+ initial spike damage (excluding crits) within 3-4 seconds of the encounter beginnning (also excluding emergencies). Only useTorpor once the tank is positioned. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I found can often get aggro if the group ward lands just b4 pull (get timing wrong), otherwise if it lands immediately after never get aggro.</DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

    I also try to time my group wards to land immediately after the tag, it works well. However, our tactics differ in that I being casting Lamenting Soul near immediately after that; the DPS reduction on auto-attack will do much more for you in that 2-second period then a single target-ward will. Spikes on the pull are usually because the debuffs haven't landed yet; casting a ward to help CONTROL the spike is counterproductive when you are one of the individuals whose role is to debuff and STOP the spiking. If a tank is taking damage to where I feel that he won't survive until the mob is debuffed, I'll instead use my instant ward(s) and continue debuffing.<div></div>

[Jora']

<DIV>This is what it great being a mystic, that 2nd spell to cast wont just be in a standard rotation, it is adaptive and depends largely on the encounter one faces. eg I wouldnt use the same standard spells i cast on a pull</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a good point you brought Ulfgar, it is very situational, obviously mob dependent. Thats what makes the mystic so much fun, its never having a standard set of spells to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, would it be more advantageous to to use the haze line or lamenting soul as your first debuff on a single target mob? I had always considered landing Shrieking Haze on an orange con epic as THE first thing to debuff, as the results are quite spectacular. Only 2 other classes will debuff a mobs offensive mellee crush/pierce/slash skills (inquisitor, Swashie), correct me if im wrong, but there are  several classes that debuff a mobs dps as Lamenting soul does (defiler for 1).  Thus, the only other class that can land that offensive melle debuff immediately on a pull is the inquisitor. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I normally follow up immediately with lamenting soul though. Thus my question is, would Shrieking Haze or Lamenting Sould debuff more of the initial spike damage output, assuming this damage consists of Auto Attack damage, and discounting the damage mob CA's will inflict. Of course this woouldnt apply to group encounters, thats something different all together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SonnyA]

<div><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:    I also try to time my group wards to land immediately after the tag, it works well. However, our tactics differ in that I being casting Lamenting Soul near immediately after that; the DPS reduction on auto-attack will do much more for you in that 2-second period then a single target-ward will. Spikes on the pull are usually because the debuffs haven't landed yet; casting a ward to help CONTROL the spike is counterproductive when you are one of the individuals whose role is to debuff and STOP the spiking. If a tank is taking damage to where I feel that he won't survive until the mob is debuffed, I'll instead use my instant ward(s) and continue debuffing.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, I feel that it buys me some time. I usually don't preward. Not unless I know that the tank will be pulling with taunt instead of proximity pulling.My order is usually Torpor -> ST ward -> Shrieking Haze -> Lamenting Soul -> ST Ward -> Cry of Ancients.. And ofcourse I bolster before the pull (duh).</div>

[Banditman]

Lamenting Soul is the more important debuff.  It's a raw decrease in auto attack damage.  Usually Lamenting Soul and Wail are my first two out of the gate.  If LS stuck, then Haze, if it missed, LS again.<div></div>

[SonnyA]

<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Lamenting Soul is the more important debuff.  It's a raw decrease in auto attack damage.  Usually Lamenting Soul and Wail are my first two out of the gate.  If LS stuck, then Haze, if it missed, LS again.<div></div><hr></blockquote>But if LS is resisted and you wait for it to recycle, then you're not doing anything for like half a second. That's a lazy mystic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[tebion]

<div><blockquote><hr>SonnyA wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Lamenting Soul is the more important debuff.  It's a raw decrease in auto attack damage.  Usually Lamenting Soul and Wail are my first two out of the gate.  If LS stuck, then Haze, if it missed, LS again.<div></div><hr></blockquote>But if LS is resisted and you wait for it to recycle, then you're not doing anything for like half a second. That's a lazy mystic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>whats why he spends that time casting Haze <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Banditman]

Lamenting Soul:  2 sec cast, .5 sec recovery.Wail of the Ancients:  2 sec cast, .5 sec recovery.If I lead with LS, and always follow with Wail, I'm ready to cast again 3 seconds after LS first landed (or was resisted).  If LS was resisted, it is ready to cast as soon as I'm recovered from Wail.You gotta remember to add that recovery in there.  It doesn't "seem" like much, but after two spells you've spent 1 second recovering.As a Conjuror, you learn to REALLY watch those sorts of things.  Conjurors are super busy casters and it really requires a lot of discipline to keep track of everything.  When I play my Mystic, I sometimes feel like I'm playing in slow motion now.<div></div>

[schmee]

if you got an MT specc'd coercer in your MT group that could be making a big difference too on whether prewarding is gonna bring anything to you.m1 enraging demeanour + the AA line that gives 10% deaggro to all non-fighters in the group can make huge difference. i've seen it give weak STs too much aggro and pull off a MT when they shouldn't be.

[Vulking]

I too would question your pre-warding and group makeup.  Has your MT group makeup changed recently?  Pre-warding for me still seems dicey at best.

[thedu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div></div>I too would question your pre-warding and group makeup.  Has your MT group makeup changed recently?  Pre-warding for me still seems dicey at best.<hr></blockquote>It still is and from what I noticed often is that mobs that do some form of special damage, not straight melee, are the ones that come after me.  But I still haven't figured out a specific way with different tanks.</div>

[salto]

<div><blockquote><hr>Specteral wrote:I've done this a few times on and off (some pulls I'm told to heavily pre-ward, stacking torpor, aegis, and umbral).<div></div><hr></blockquote>Are wards stacking now?  I thought multiple wards got used up at the same time.  Has this been changed?</div>

[tebion]

<div><blockquote><hr>salto wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Specteral wrote:I've done this a few times on and off (some pulls I'm told to heavily pre-ward, stacking torpor, aegis, and umbral).<div></div><hr></blockquote>Are wards stacking now?  I thought multiple wards got used up at the same time.  Has this been changed?</div><hr></blockquote>that was fixed quite some time ago, wards stack properly now within the boundaries that are known anyway (no 2 single cast wards at the same time, no 2 groupwards at the same time, etc. etc.)</div>

[Banditman]

Fixed as of . . . Live Update 13?  That or immediately thereafter.  September of 2005.<div></div>

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>schmee wrote:if you got an MT specc'd coercer in your MT group that could be making a big difference too on whether prewarding is gonna bring anything to you.m1 enraging demeanour + the AA line that gives 10% deaggro to all non-fighters in the group can make huge difference. i've seen it give weak STs too much aggro and pull off a MT when they shouldn't be.<hr></blockquote>We don't use a Coercer in our MT group any more.</div>

[Marty78]

<DIV>Seriously, if you pre-ward and get aggro for doing that your tank sucks. (Edit: atleast if it ends with you dieing, a taunt getting resisted can happen the best)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Marty78 on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 AM</span>

[Banditman]

That has NOT always been the case.  There was a time when pre-Warding = death.  Regardless of taunts, etc.  If you cast a Ward before pull, your (*@ was grass.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

I do seem to recall it drew aggro more months ago, but I don't think it has changed recently.<div></div>

[Jida]

Also, if you raid with a brigand. Have him appeal you, you will live and no longer have aggro.