What should have been . . .

[Banditman]

<div></div>Non suck Mystic AA'sSo, instead of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about what we got, here's what we could have that would suck less.  In fact, with a tree like that we could even have a legit discussion about which paths worked best for what playstyles.I'd draw you a quick picture but if you're interested you can figure it out without.<u><b>Ministration</b></u>M1 - Enhance Minor Heal, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Each rank reduces cast time of Minor Healing (and higher level upgrades) by .2 seconds.M2 - Enhance Arch Heal, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Minor Heal.  Each rank reduces cast time of Arch Healing (and higher level upgrades) by .3 seconds.M3 - Enhance Shadowy Attendant, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Minor Heal.  Each rank reduces recast time of Shadowy Attendant and higher level upgrades by six seconds.M4 - Enhance Torpor, 2 ranks, 3 points per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Arch Heal.  Each rank increases duration of Torpor (and higher level upgrades) by 4 seconds.M5 - Enhance Wards of Sirit, 2 ranks, 3 points per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Shadowy Attendant.  Each rank decreases recast time of Wards of Spirit (and higher level upgrades) by 1.5 seconds.M6 - Enhance Oberon, 1 rank, 1 point, requires 20 points spent in Ministrations.  Increases ward amount of Oberon (and higher level upgrades) by 35%.<u><b>Ordination</b></u>O1 - Enhance Minor Auspice, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Increases maximum hit points of Minor Auspice (and higher level upgrades) by 5% per rank.O2 - Enhance Spirit of the Wolf, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Minor Auspice.  Increases run speed bonus of Spirit of the Wolf by 6% per rank.O3 - Enhance Ursine Elder, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Minor Auspice or at least 3 points in Chilling Strike.  Adds a 5% chance per rank to do additional slashing damage with each melee attack.O4 - Enhance Bolster, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Spirit of the Wolf.  Each rank adds 2 seconds to the duration of Bolster.O5 - Enhance Spirit of the Bull, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Ursine Elder.  Increases STA component of Spirit of the Bull (and higher level upgrades) by 7% per rank.O6 - Enhance Avatar, 1 rank, 3 points.  Requires at least 3 points in Enhance Bolster or at least 3 points in Enhance Spirit of the Bull.  Adds an INT and WIS component to Avatar (and higher level upgrades) equal to the STR, STA and AGI components.O7 - Ancestry, 1 rank, 1 point, requires 20 points spent in Ordination.  Adds 3% increase in trigger chance to the Mystics group.<u><b>Disruption</b></u>D1 - Chilling Strike, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Melee alternative to Nuke.D2 - Feverish Strike, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Chilling Strike.  Melee alternative to Disease DoT.D3 - Glacial Strike, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Feverish Strike or at least 3 points spent in Enhance Ursine Elder.  Melee alternative to Cold DoT.D4 - Circle of the Ancients, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Glacial Strike.  Melee alternative to AE Nuke.D5 - Weapon Mastery, 1 rank, 1 point, requires 20 points spent in Disruption.  Just like it is now.<u><b>Subjugation </b></u>(for the dogdog lover in all of us)P1 - Spiritual Avatar, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Each rank adds 30 STR, STA and AGI to a summoned Spirit Companion.P2 - Summoning Mastery, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Spiritual Avatar.  Each rank decreases casting time of Spirit Companion and any of its buffs by 10%.P3 - Focused Companion, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Spiritual Avatar.  Each rank increases the melee skills of summoned Spirit Companion by 6.P4 - Spiritual Echo, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Summoning Mastery.  Each rank adds a 5% chance to place a trigger on the summoned Spiritual Companion when the Mystic lands a Hostile spell.  This trigger, upon the next successful melee attack by the pet, deals additional cold damage equal to the melee damage to the target.P5 - Spirit Quickening, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Focused Companion.  Each rank increases melee haste of pet by 10.P6 - Spiritual Impact, 5 ranks, 1 point per.  Requires at least 3 points spent in Spiritual Echo or at least 3 points spent in Spirit Quickening.  Each rank adds a 3% chance for pet to double attack.P7 - Spiritual Respite, 1 rank, 1 point, requires 20 points spent in Subjugation.  On a successful melee attack by the Spirit Companion, there is a 20% chance to heal all friendly targets in area (10M radius from pet) for 350-550 HP.Enjoy what might have been.<i>Edit:  Typos and formatting.</i><div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[thedu]

I like it all, but I don't think the Subjugation line would *ever* be followed through. We are unofficially a pet class but to enhance our pet like that -- and I would love to -- would cause problems for the pet classes out there already, right?<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

personally I think the ministration tree there is a bit overpowered.. I mean halving the cast times of your heals? um.. if you could do that then why do druids get the smallest direct heals and what would be the point of druid direct heals anymore? And agree with the above poster about the dog line being a bit much as well.. I do agree the mystic achievements are very blah but those suggestions are a bit over-the-top.<div></div>

[Owlbe]

I like the pet orientated line. They spent a whole entire aa line was based around the pet (more or less) in PoS and then they totally ignore the pet it in the next expansion aa's! /shakes head. I don't understand that.

[kon]

<DIV> <P>One of the working constraints for the EoF subclass achievements is that they could not require any of the KoS class achievements, and vice versa.  (The reason was likely because the two trees are reset independently, making cross-tree requirements difficult to enforce.)  Thus, nothing in the Mystic tree can interact with our spirit companion.</P> <P>So... I would replace the Subjugation line with a few options to expand our debuffs.  Extra duration on Eidolon, extra elemental/noxious on Wail, faster cast on Lethargy, etc.  And I'd have given anything to speed up the cast time of our group ward.  Our Primeval armor can cut its recast time, but it's the excruciatingly long cast that I'm more interested in.</P> <P>kono</P></DIV>

[Ordate]

<P>Perhaps so kono, but if that is the case why are two lines totally balanced around the idea of having aa's from the kos set up (wards on cures and the amount of damage and reuse on the melee skills.)</P> <P>Really the current tree wreaks of we want to throw a bunch of things at the mystic but not improve them at all.  And while I agree that some of the ideas that bandit posted are a little too good, what we have now is crap.</P>

[exxxie]

Just a couple of points:1) Banditman app to the dev team forthwith.2) Thread-Hijack incoming!.....I have now filled up the augmentation line with AA points and I'm liking Ancestry.... what now people? The rest of my new AA points seem to be so bland... which way are you going?<div></div>

[Banditman]

Thats the whole reason for this thread . . . once people finish up with the buff enhancements, there is no real reason to continue grinding AA's because they all suck.  On my other characters, I am forced to make difficult choices among a number of very attractive things that improve the overall ability of my character in meaningful ways.  We should be talking about the relative benefits of different lines for various styles of play, while instead we are going . . . "what sucks less?"There is no problem with cross tree dependancy in this case.  The only "dependancy" is that you have your pet.  That's it.  You can simply put one point into Shaman AA, your pet, and then ignore it for the KoS tree.  Is that a GOOD choice?  Probably not, but it IS a choice.Cast speed reduction to primary spells is a recurring theme across the AA's that other classes have.  I see no reason that it should be ignored as a possible avenue for Mystics.  Conjurors for instance get an AA that increases the cast speed of their primary nuke to a point where that regardless of spell quality the raw DPS of the spell is increased by 20 percent.<div></div>

[Eepop]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:I like it all, but I don't think the Subjugation line would *ever* be followed through. We are unofficially a pet class but to enhance our pet like that -- and I would love to -- would cause problems for the pet classes out there already, right?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I have grouped with a conjuror for 70 levels.  I have leveled my conjuror alt through mid 30s. Even if you had ALL of those AAs your pet wouldnt be near a conjuror with 0 AAs. My conjuror's level 30 firepet (the frailest of the conjuror pets) has more HP than the mystic pet fully mystic buffed.  I would try to explain the damage gap, but I would probably die laughing. *Edit* And as a side note, bandit also has a conjuror, which i think is a bit higher than mine.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

The issue I have with those cast speed reductions is that you're asking for druid's casting times with none of the drawbacks the druids have to put up with and it's taking over what is currently a druid healing role (burst healing). If a mystic could heal just as fast as a druid but could do it for more then where's the balance for druids? There would be none, and furies would have an even bigger gripe about it than a warden should cuz that's THE fury thing for their heals and has been since lu13.. that they can put out more healing faster than other healers, and the wardens get those casting times to make up for the lack of burst healing.. we don't have large upfront heals so we need to be able to put out as much as we can as fast as possible. Why do mystics need their bigger heals to cast as fast as a druid's?<div></div>

[AbyssLaboli]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>I think bandit did a very good job of an alternative AA tree. I also think with adornments contributing to a higher heal amount that an increase in casting speed from an AA line would unbalance mystics in comparason to the druid class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So what do we do with the useless rez line?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My two copper would be to change it to a debuff line. It seems that debuffs were missed by the EoF maystic AA line. Mystics have six major debuffs (1 ancient, 3 single target, and 2 group [splitpaw spell discounted]). There are many options for the debuff catagory. For instance increase the duration. Another could be add a new componet (along the same lines as a new componet wis / int was added to avitar). Even adjusting the casting speed or cost is an improvement. </FONT></P>

[Eepop]

Ok what about instead of cast time decreases, we add 10% per point of overflow healing from this spell is converted into a ward on the target. So if you have 5 points in it, the tank is down 50 hp, and you cast a 100 hp heal, you cap him out and give him a 25 point ward (50% of the overflow heal that would be wasted). It would be an improvement, but its not like it would change the way in which we use our direct heals. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I kinda like that idea Eepop.  Let's expand on that a little.<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

that is a good idea and one I wouldn't have any objections to (aside from the warden in me saying well I already have little enough to heal as is.. that sucks for me >.> but that's my own issue to deal with =p). Ideas like that are what I'd rather see than taking something that another class has and asking for the same thing through your AAs. All that aside though, I really don't think they would implement either of those heal tree options because none of the new AAs for the healers do anything at all to our primary heal spells that are shared between all the classes (the single target and grp spec heals, and the single target and group direct heals) except for one of the fury end-lines that removes their small direct heal and gives it to someone else in their grp; needless to say, this really doesn't even benefit the fury or their healing power (aside from actually lessening it since they'll have less heals at their disposal to use) and has a lot of them going "uhhh... what?". The devs left the kind of stuff you're asking for with that ministration tree idea up to the class armor sets and are trying to enhance our other roles as healers with the AAs (which is why you end up with rez and cure lines and debuff and buff lines).<div></div>

[Eepop]

We arent suggesting that we should get these changes and everyone else should just cope with any bad lines they have.  I looked at the warden AAs once in beta, but they made alot of changes to alot of classes after that, so they probably changed as well.  I would love for them to replace a bad line wardens have with something to add to heals.  Maybe it would make me have enough motivation to play my warden again. My idea for a buff to warden heals: X% of overhealing with this spell is converted into power for the target.  Have the numbers work out to with having 5 points in it, if you cast it on someone with full health it would give them about 5% more than what you spent on it (with normal non buffed ministration).  So if you wanted, you could cast it on yourself as fast as possible and come out to maybe FT 5 to 10, but around the cap.  Have Fury give a damage shield based on the overhealing.  Have Defilers give a lifetap proc .  Have Inquisitors give a chance of double attack.  Have Templars give an aggression&disruption skill buff. <div></div>

[Vulking]

<P>Banditman, thank you for suggesting alternatives to our current AA selections.  The debate over whether what you suggest, are too powerfull or not, is something to look forward to.  </P> <P>The question I have is this, as one of our primary roles being de-buffing, your AA list does not play into that strength.  Do you feel that our capabilities here are just fine?  It seems to me that these would be an area to see AAs applied.</P>

[Eepop]

I dont mean to speak for Bandit, but I have also put in a good bit of thought on a possible AA tree for mystics.  And the reason why I would shy away from debuff lines is to allow defilers to have a place to shine, and keep us differentiated. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I tend to agree with Eepop, but for differing reasons.Look at the things that Mystics can debuff:Strength, Stamina x2, Attack Speed, DPS (Attack Strength), Elemental and Noxious resists.Strength is of very dubious value to debuff.  I might be able to parse a very tiny difference from it with great difficulty.  Now, look at how many people have a Strength debuff:  Inquisitor, Mystic, Defiler x2, Warlock, Necromancer and Brigand.  That's a LOT of people debuffing strength.  I don't think there is really any need for MORE debuffing there.  That assuming that even all those are effective in even a marginal sense.  I suspect there is a stat debuff cap in place and that in most situations a raid is well over that.Stamina is of high value to debuff.  It definitely makes a difference in mob HP.  Mystics, Defilers and Necro's are the only classes with the ability to debuff stamina.  As such, I suspect that the Devs have a pretty tight hold on just how much stamina can be debuffed.Attack speed is of medium value to debuff.  In truth, it is high value, but there are SO many ways to debuff attack speed that a raid without a Mystic could still get to that cap fairly easily.  Mystics and Defilers can each hit the attack speed debuff cap without any help at all.  Brigands and Dirges can debuff attack speed with their CA's.  All Scouts can use attack speed debuff poisons.  Even Berzerkers can debuff attack speed.  Let's face it, attack speed debuffs are easy to cap out.  What would be the point of "improving" ours when the improvement means precisely nothing?DPS (attack strength) is of medium value to debuff.  Once again, it's important to do, but there are so many ways to get to the cap that the value of a Mystic doing it is quite low.  Defilers and Mystics can each hit the cap on this without any help.  Swashbucklers and Dirges have major DPS debuffs.  Guardians can debuff it.  Once you hit that cap . . . how much "better" can you do it?For resists, the field is even more crowded.  Inquisitors, Wardens, Defilers, Wizards, Warlocks, Conjurors, Necromancers, Coercers, Brigands, Dirges and Shadowknights all cast resist debuffs that overlap what we have.My take on the situation is that there just isn't much room left in which to "improve" debuffs.  Debuffs are handled.<div></div>

[MRRX]

<P>Nicely done........ except for the combat line.</P> <P>We went through several posts where I get convinced that the combat arts, as people understand them, would be useless.     Then you replicate the same thing for our "wish list" ?</P> <P>You might change the combat art line to be a casting-time reduction tree on our normal spells, for increased DPS.    Similar to the one Conjuror tree.      </P> <P>Or perhaps suggest the recast timer on the combat arts is lowered for every ability at every point invested, such that their use increases DPS somewhat when maxxed out.     This is probably harder to do, but more "interesting", given that you have the ability to get Master spells immediately via purchase or drop, and yet to achieve the similar effect with an AA would require five points earned and invested. </P> <P><A href="http://mrrx.wordpress.com" target=_blank>MrrX's Character Journal</A></P>

[Eepop]

I think Bruisers have a stamina buff as well.  I am relatively unfamilar with thier abilities, but I was in a group the other day with: Mystic, Bruiser, Illusionist, Troubador, and wizard.  There was another sta debuff on the mobs that I know wasnt mystic, illusionist, or troubador.  And it sounded bruiser-y and not wizardy...like something throw.  I looked on the bruiser list on Ogaming and don't see it.   Maybe its gear or something, Ill ask him next time I see him. Wow, what a rant, anyway...it was for like 120 stamina, which just goes to reinforce your point. <div></div>

[Eepop]

<blockquote>MRRX wrote:<div></div> <p>Nicely done........ except for the combat line.</p><font color="#ff0000">The combat line as it is isnt too bad, I have seen a DPS increase over my adept 3 spells.  Not huge, but Im still hopeful that it will be a decent increase and hopefully even better with weapon mastery.</font> <p> This is probably harder to do, but more "interesting", given that you have the ability to get Master spells immediately via purchase or drop, and yet to achieve the similar effect with an AA would require five points earned and invested. </p></blockquote>          <font color="#ff0000">Inversely, from the prospective of a new mystic, you can put  the AA points into the combat arts and get free adept 1s of your attacks for the   entire span of your character.</font><div></div>

[MRRX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>The combat line as it is isnt too bad, I have seen a DPS increase over my adept 3 spells.  Not huge, but Im still hopeful that it will be a decent increase and hopefully even better with weapon mastery.</FONT><BR> <P>That's good news.   Someday I'm going to try them out myself to really gauge it.    Maybe I will do this next now that I have 5 points in SOW.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>         <FONT color=#ff0000>Inversely, from the prospective of a new mystic, you can put  the AA points into the combat arts and get free adept 1s of your attacks for the   entire span of your character.</FONT></P> <P>Yeah agreed mostly.    Doesn't solve the problem of why a maxxed-out character would go after the arts though -  if the arts end up the equivalent of Adept I why would those with Adept III's and Masters in combat spells (like me) bother ?<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><A href="http://mrrx.wordpress.com/" target=_blank>MrrX's Character Journal</A>

[Eepop]

If you have adept 3 / masters already there are four factors that can still sway you: 1) Resists - I find that the combat arts land a good bit more than the spells do. 2) Weapon Mastery - which mostly just makes point 1 even more so. 3) Our class tends to have a much higher strength score than intelligence score. 4) You can get 100% melee critical from KoS AAs which does effect combat arts. And I dunno, I just think it looks cool being a healer thats up in the mobs face. <div></div>

[Banditman]

The other thing with the Combat Art line is that it could be extremely useful in PvP.  A Mystic doesn't really have any standoff capability and is forced to deal with things "up close and personal".  Thus, with their fast cast times a Mystic in PvP who is forced to melee has some recourse for dealing damage and time left in which to use debuffs and heals.  I definitely see value to a PvPer.I am ok with the Devs devoting one of our lines to helping balance PvP, so long as there are other lines that address the needs of the more plentiful PvE Mystics.<div></div>

[Owlbe]

I would add a spell crit aa in there some where. Shaman have no way to increase spell crits with aa's unlike druids and clerics. This makes no sense at all. It would be a good option for those who might want a dps increae but does'nt want to go full out melee spec.

[AbyssLaboli]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Banditman wrote:<BR>I tend to agree with Eepop, but for differing reasons.<BR><BR>Look at the things that Mystics can debuff:<BR><BR>Strength, Stamina x2, Attack Speed, DPS (Attack Strength), Elemental and Noxious resists.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Strength - Still looking for a good add on</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Stamina - Tack on a lower health regen</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Attack speed - Tack on a slower in combat movement</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>DPS - Tack on a debuff to weapon or offensive spell proc's</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Elemental and Noxious resists - Tack on a fire/cold or mental/magic bonus reduction </FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by AbyssLabolith on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 PM</span>

[Vulking]

<DIV>Thanks for the replies Eepop and Banditman, but personally, I'm not ready to ceed the de-buffing crown to defilers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find myself on raids, spending 40% of my casting time, throwing up our 5 primary debuffs. Tarinax fights in particular show the advantages of frankly our greatest debuff Wail of the Ancients.  Helping pull T's hitpoints down from somewhere near 2 million to 3/4s of that, if you keep it up the whole fight, is worth every plat I spent to get the master I regardless if others are debuffing HPs or not.  As to the attack speed and dps debuffs, well I have not noticed a change in the mobs abilities, but I have seen the effect on spike damage when they are up.  They really smooth out the damage, and make healing and wards more manageable.<BR></DIV>

[Banditman]

You need to be talking to other classes and offloading that.You are probably pushing debuffs on Tarinax up around 70 or 80 percent, of which only the first 50 counts.We all realize debuffs are valuable, but knowing when to debuff and when you don't need to are equally important.<div></div>