Thatdumbg
11-25-2006, 02:12 AM
<div></div>This is an in-depth comparison between fully mastered, max level, max achievement Shaman in different raid groups. Keep in mind, I am NOT a mystic who believes that mystics and defilers should be even in a main tank group. I'm just sharing most of my research into the class particulars. I would never suggest Mystics or Defilers have no place on a raid... raiding without either shaman is raiding with one hand behind your back when it comes to debuffs. I think the general consensus is that we are nearly balanced in mob debuffing capacity (except, with the new achievements, defilers get a considerable advantage on their debuffs: they are resisted less, do it quicker, and do it for less power then mystics), and healing capabilities (Defilers say "I want Torpor!". Mystics say "I want Curse of Shielding!"), other then what I've outlined below (mainly Prophetic Aegis). I also will not focus on DPS; as, in a raid, I am of the firm believe that role-reinforcement as a general rule is vastly superior to role-diversification (when speaking of Healing vs. DPS).Also, I discuss some of my thoughts/questions concerning the Shaman class at the end of the post. It can by nature only be one-sided, as I am obviously a Mystic (although, I have experience with a Defiler, and I'd like to think, some small expertise). This thread is not intended to bash any class, start any (non-constructive) arguments or bickering, flame anything. So please, do your best to keep this discussion constructive.Bear with me, as this is long, somewhat verbose, and I can't verify that I was fully sane writing it. I'm definitely feeling a tad bit insane after it's done. Also, it was wrrten in notepad, so forgive my formatting... I'll try to spruce it up some later. I guess we'll get started.IN A MAIN TANK GROUP (including overall description of spells):Group Buffs:M- Runic Aegis- A regenerating 151-point group ward against physical damage.vs.D- Abbhorent Shroud- A regenerating 422-point group ward agaisnt non-physical damage (enhanced to rank5).Winner: DefilerM- Spirit of the Mammoth- 102 Stamina for the group (which, for a priest at 360 stamina, results in 273HP)vs.D- Rapactiy- 666 Health for the groupWinner: Defiler (unless your average stamina in the main tank group is oh, about 4).Single Target Buffs:M- Foretelling- 804H, 721P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffsvs.D- Portent- 964H, 481P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffsNotes/Mitigating Factors: The single-target concentration buff is usually cast on yourself and the Main Tank. If you drop your mit buff, you can place these buffs on one other individual as well. However, dropping any other buff results in HP loss for the MT, so it isn't commonly done. I personally think that the regenerating wards on the mit buffs bring more to the table for the MT then giving someone else another few hundred health/power a vast majority of the time.Winner:On the MT: DefilerOn others (only if/when possible): MysticM- Ancient Avatar- 76 AGI/STA/STR (On my MT: +231 avoidance, 186 health, 38 ATK, and 3.3 to 3.4% more damage on combat arts)vs.D- Dire Invective- Proc Buff: 9.5% (1.9/minute) chance to proc ~91-pt (depends on int) disease Dot every 4 seconds for 24 seconds on successful attack.ANDD- Tendrils of Horror- A buff that grants the MT a 11% (Enhanced to rank 3) chance to proc a 37%DPS and 26% attack speed reduction for any target that damages the MT (duration 36s)Notes: In a day where unlinked adds in raid encounters are plentiful, Tendrils of Horror (slow/dps debuff) trumps the avoidance granted from Avatar. The health is nice, but a defiler already has a mystic beat in the group health buff, so its a non-issue.The Proc from Dire Invective vs. the CA damage from avatar is rougly even; and if Avatar is superior at lower strength, as the tank adds more strength with EoF gear, Dire Invective will pull ahead. Once more, we are buffing against diminishing returns, when they are buffing for a raw amount. Level 70 "Stunning Specialties"M- Oberon Barrier- A single target, regenerating ward that stifles/roots the caster (36s duration). The initial ward is 3172 points (enhanced to rank 5), and assuming the regenerating portions scales as well (I don't have the AA currently) regenerates 1634 every 4 seconds.Total Potential Warding on one target: 16244 over 36s.vs.D- Maelstrom- A group regeneration of both power and health that stifles/roots the caster (40s duration). Also does damage to enemies, but that isn't important here. The heal is for 384-470 every 5 seconds, the power regen is 64-78 every 5 seconds.Total Potential Healing: 4230health and 702 power per groupmember over 40s (Totals: 25380health and 4212 power).Notes: Were I a defiler, I wouldn't max this ability, so I didn't include the enhancement. As a mystic, I MIGHT max it, but might not, so it was included.Winner- In the MT group, neither... arguments could be made for either ability being superior. In my opinion, both have situational uses and are very nice abilities. Since both of these spells are in fact situational, I don't think you can declare a clear winner. I think they are fairly balanced, personally, and definitely add to the flavor of each class.Curing:D- Voice of the Ancestors- Cures control effects on the defilers group, can be used while under a control effect. 1s cast, 2m recast.vs.M- Ancient Balm- Cures 93 levels of every effect under the sun. Can commonly rip 2 to 4 debuffs/dots off of a MT.ANDImmunization (End AA Line ability)For a 15s duration, target is immune to control effects. 1s cast, 3m recast.Thoughts: Immunization is a nice ability. In the case of cureable effects, this can be placed on the mystic before a known AE or somesuch, and then the mystic can single or group cure the group of the effect. If you know that the control effect is uncurable, then it could be placed upon the main tank instead. However, if there is a stun that we don't know is coming, its near useless. Can also be used as a handy tool for pulling mobs that use control effects almost immediately. Another shining point is that it will make a target immune to charm, which, on some encounters is very nice indeed. Nothing can cure a charm currently, so being able to prevent your MT from being charmed is a handy tool. Without this ability, you usually have to have sacrificial pullers to eat a charm, as most mobs that do do so in the first 5 seconds of a fight.Ancient Balm is an awesome time saving tool. Its 1s cast and quick recast (6s) make it excellent for keeping a MT cured, which, in my opinion, is just as important as keeping a MT healed. Not only that, but for some reason (bugged or not?), Ancient Balm can be cast on the move.Voice of the Ancestors is a superior tool for keeping your MT group in the fight. Rotated with sanctuary, a MT group can get around most of the control effects currently in the game (other then a charm). Defilers can choose to lower the recast time on the spell; and, in some situations with or without that lower recast and paired with a templar/sanctuary, the MT group becomes practically impervious to stuns or stifles.Winner: I personally edge towards defiler. Considering that the optimum Shaman achievement setup for the MT group (feel free to argue about it, I'll feel free to laugh) leaves single-target cures at a cast time of .6 (Tribal Expertise rank 5), the fact that Ancient Balm is a 1s cast (and 6s recast) somewhat loses its value. This is somewhat mitigated, however, by the fact that a mystic can run forward on the pull with the tank, and cure as the encounter is being run back to camp, which can make a difference at times. Also, mystics definitely win against charms, the immunity can be nice. However, this is situational.Overall, I believe that the ability to cure the entire group of a stun or stifle, thereby keeping 3 of your mainstay priests in the fight in addition to the tank, is superior to anything a Mystic can offer, except in very specialized cases, and in even in those cases, the advantage is somewhat minimized if a mystic not in the MT group actually has immunities (which I admit, might be rare), because you can just have a fighter in the mystics group with immunities pull the mobs that charm, or maybe rescue at the appropriate times.Healing Pets:M- Umbral Attendant- 2s cast, 20s Duration, 1m recast. Heals group members that are within 5-10m or so for 220-250ish a tick (total of 6 ticks). Moves with the mystic.vs.D- Spiritual Circle 2s cast, 1m duration, 2m recast. Has a slight recurrent power cost. Wards group members that are within 5-10m (assuming) for an unknown amount (sorry dont' recall it off the top of my head). The pet is stationary once cast.Winner: Neither... they seem to be fairly balanced, trading off with the fact that the circle can't move and costs higher power versus the fact that it can be up more of the time (1/2 the time as opposed to 1/3 of the time). Of course, I can't remember for the life of me what the circle wards for, but I think its about what the mystic pet heals for.Other/No Proper Category-M- Prophetic Aegis- A 2s cast, 36s duration, 1m recast group ward. Increases Noxious resists for the group by 912, and wards EACH member of the group versus 1716 points of noxious damage. If I remember correctly, this ward also possibly regenerates?Hands down, this is an great ability. Defilers get nothing like this, and its use against noxious AE's (which are plentiful both in KoS and moreso in EoF) is seriously, like, huge. Not only will you get hit for less, but it really takes the edge of those 6 or 7k AE's, and totally marginalizes the 3 or 4k AE's. With many mobs in EoF having 40s AE's, it doesn't have the same use that it does on say, Chel'Drak (and some other KoS/TFD encounters), as it can't pretty much always be up.. but nevertheless, it is a very valuable and viable tool.Overall:In my opinion (and in most people's), Defilers bring more to the Main Tank group, be it HP, the ability to slow/dps debuff more mobs, etc, etc, etc.I have no problems with this, my problems start to develop below:Defiler vs. Mystic in a Melee-DPS oriented raid group:What Changes? Let's go back through. I'll omit numbers and descriptions for brevity, as they have already been explained above.Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Moxnix, to be honest. The only time this really comes into play is on a mob with a damage shield... which come in a variety of effects.STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: 102 Stamina never equals 666HP... ever. Defiler FTW.Single Target Buffs: More Power vs. More Health- Again, somewhat moxnix. They both have the option of taking down more buffs, since they aren't in the MT group, so they can both place them upon more people. Which is better is entirely situational. On Encounters with Heavy AE's, the defilers have a slight edge. On Encounters where a fast burn is needed, perhaps Mystics do. Honestly I have no problem with the disparity between these two spells, and find them overall to be balanced.Single Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils of Horror loses its importance, unless it is on a secondary tank, etc, etc... so does the Agility on Avatar for the purposes of avoidance. The combat art damage added from the STR on Avatar is likely to be 2-4 percent, which, depending on the class, could be better then a proc buff. The STR/AGI on avatar could be used on a fighter/scout as a small power pool buff. However, with the correct AA's, Avatar will also add intelligence and wisdom (48 each), so the buff could very well stay on the mystic. Result: Fairly even.Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Oberon is near useless unless someone in your group pulls aggro. However, if they pull aggro, Oberon isn't nearly enough to keep them up, as you severely limit your burst healing capabilities. Maelstrom retains some use as both an efficient group heal and a small power renewal for the group. Result: DefilerCuring: Ancient Balm is probably still thrown on the tank blindly/randomly every so often. However, Voice of the Ancestors is an invaluable tool here, as you can cure group, throw a cure out to one of your MT priests (Templar in all likelyhood), and have them group cure/sanctuary to get over the control effect. Immunities (if taken) loses use, unless a tank in your group is used as a puller for a mob that charms immediately. Results: DefilerHealing Pets: Spiritual Circle loses its use unless there is a small steady stream of damage incoming on the group. Umbral Attendant can be used as a slow, highly efficient heal after an AE, and probably has more use. However, for a melee DPS group, it is likely that the pet (And therefor the shaman, in the Mystic's case) would have to be in AE range of the encounter to really take effect on the group, so both are of limited use.Other: Prophetic Aegis still hands down can be a lifesaver on heavy noxious AE's.Overall: In a melee DPS group, the preferred shaman is quite honestly situational. Both have their uses, the major ones being a noxious ward for the group, and a control effect cure. However, the noxious ward is probably better off in a group where its members are less robust (i.e., a ranged/mage DPS group). Overall, I'll say they are about even, each having a variety of unique, but minor, strengths, for the majority of basic encounters. A defiler is more likely to fill this spot in my raid, for reasons outlined below.Defilers vs. Mystic in a Ranged/Mage DPS-oriented raid group:Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Again, fairly moxnix. It is likely that the Defiler's magic ward will see more use or more efficiency, but not always.STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: Again, 102 Stamina NEVER equals 666HP... ever. Defiler.Single Target Buffs: Same as in a melee-dps group, however, the Mystic slightly outdoes the defiler, as a mage group is much more likely to be able to totally avoid an AE due to range. Results: MysticSingle Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils is all but useless, and Dire Invective is unless you have a Troubador, Paladin, or Guardian in the group (for aggro control/what-have-you). Avatar follows the same rule as dire invective, but can be used as a small power buff for virtually any target in the group (if enhanced to rank 5). Results: Probably Mystic.Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Almost exactly the same as above. Result: DefilerCuring: Same as above, except immunities probably totally uses its use (unless placed upon someone in your group who can group cure). Results: DefilerHealing Pets: Here the Mystic hedges out over the Defiler in most encounters, as the Attendant can heal after an AE and not be in range of the encounter. Spiritual Circle would be nice in situations of small, steady damage as above, but doesn't give much in the way of protection against AE's. Results: MysticOther: Prophetic Aegis FTW. Results: MysticOverall: I believe that a Mystic is slightly more suited to a mage-DPS group, which I find to be somewhat awkward. Aren't we the ones who concentrate on the Physical Side, and the Defilers the ones who concentrate more on the Magical side?A Hybrid Group: Each have their uses, and things are situational dependant upon the group. Results: For encounters with Noxious AE's: Mystic. For Encounters with Control Effect AE's: Defiler. Overall: Too situational/group dependant to really determine.So, from what we see here, I would say the following:Among players of comparable skill, spellbooks, and equipment:A Defiler is definitely better suited to the Main Tank Group.A Mystic is slightly better suited to a Mage DPS Group.Defilers and Mystics are likely equal in a Melee-DPS group, dependant upon setup.Slightly off-topic, but these are some questions/thoughts that this research has raised... and I would really like to hear the (constructive) opinions of others on them (and I would absolutely love for a Developer to lend his or her knowledge/expertise on the matter).Defilers get two toggle buffs. Mystics get one. If you combine the two defiler buffs, they do the same things that the Mystic buffs do in most situations (speaking of end-results). However, the defiler buffs combined are, in my opinion, highly superior to Avatar. Mystics are constantly buffing against the law of diminishing returns, and Defilers rather ignore it. Why is this? If this system were to be properly balanced, the numbers should be such that a Mystic is superior buffing against the system until about 550-650ish, and then, defilers would begin to hedge them out. Right now, the number where our buffs start to lose effectiveness is much lower then that (variable, but please see this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=16064&jump=true#M16064 for an in-depth look of stamina vs. raw health).An Achievement Comparison: Defilers get more useful abilities/enhancements then I would know what to do with (in terms of raiding). For a Mystic, I have to SCRAPE to spend anything above 15-20 points. Some priests got the rez-lines... some got the cure-lines. Both of them are pretty crappy. Why in the HELL did mystics get both? I highly recommend serious consideration into eliminating one of these two lines, to be replaced with a line more akin to the defiler debuff line, or warding line. I don't believe that our current Mystic Achievement options are on par with ANY other priest (however, I'll admit that this could be perception on my part... I'd have to do ALOT more research to be sure, and I want to publish this sooner rather then later). I know for a fact they aren't anywhere near on-par with the Defiler lines.The group buffs: Can anyone tell me what base stamina is required for 102 Stamina to be worth 666 Health? From the looks of it, I would estimate it to be somewhere around -428.2... but my estimation might be on the high side.<div></div>