Mystic v Defiler HP buffing post-EoF?

[ecoskii]

<DIV>Has any raiding mystic managed to check whether the MT HP buff gap for mystic versus defiler has closed much yet with our new aa buffs to Foretelling and Mammoth?  Defilers used to buff raw MT HP by about 1k more than me pre-eof - I think this has closed a bit but we can't get a defiler to stay around long enough to check it at the moment (I think they have a character weakness....)</DIV>

[Banditman]

You don't need a Defiler to test this.Pre EoF:A Defiler with full Master 1 Buffs adds 1951 HP to their tank.A Mystic with full Master 1 Buffs adds 964 HP to their tank.Difference of 987.  You assume that the tank is already capped on STA so Mammoth and Avatar add zilch.  The difference is the difference.With EoF:Kill all your buffs, note tank HP.Apply full buffs, including Avatar.  Note tank HP.A Defiler's ability to buff HP has not changed.  They still buff 1951 HP.  So, whatever the difference is now, you simply subtract your results from 1951.Keep in mind however that the AA's for Mammoth and Foretelling were VERY CLEARLY designed with the intention of closing this gap some, and as such, should definitely be a part of any testing.Even just the raw increase from Foretelling Rank 5 closes the raw HP gap from 987 to 827.  If the other AA's for Mammoth plus the increased STA cap only amounts to 500 HP, you're down to a difference of 327 HP.  At that point, player skill matters a lot more than anything else.  (I'm good with that!)I'd be curious to see what those numbers are though.<div></div>

[Raff]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>You don't need a Defiler to test this.<BR><BR>Pre EoF:<BR><BR>A Defiler with full Master 1 Buffs adds 1951 HP to their tank.<BR><BR>A Mystic with full Master 1 Buffs adds 964 HP to their tank.<BR><BR>Difference of 987.  You assume that the tank is already capped on STA so Mammoth and Avatar add zilch.  The difference is the difference.<BR><BR><BR>With EoF:<BR><BR>Kill all your buffs, note tank HP.<BR><BR>Apply full buffs, including Avatar.  Note tank HP.<BR><BR>A Defiler's ability to buff HP has not changed.  They still buff 1951 HP.  So, whatever the difference is now, you simply subtract your results from 1951.<BR><BR>Keep in mind however that the AA's for Mammoth and Foretelling were VERY CLEARLY designed with the intention of closing this gap some, and as such, should definitely be a part of any testing.<BR><BR>Even just the raw increase from Foretelling Rank 5 closes the raw HP gap from 987 to 827.  If the other AA's for Mammoth plus the increased STA cap only amounts to 500 HP, you're down to a difference of 327 HP.  At that point, player skill matters a lot more than anything else.  (I'm good with that!)<BR><BR>I'd be curious to see what those numbers are though.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Defiler here... anyone test this yet? I was worried the diminishing returns might not favor the mystic as well as everyone hoped. I hope this disparity between our classes (w/r/t HP buffing) is now a moot point and you all are on par in this area. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still a bit torn if it should be "the same" but being within a few hundred raw HP should be good, considering that cool buff you all get that you can cast cross raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

    I'll get the numbers if you want to see them, but I believe the major problem remains the same:Stats are based upon a system of diminishing returns. Direct health buffs aren't. If my tank can make that stamina up in gear (he can, or will be able to based upon the loot I've seen), or potions, or through other means, then I can still buff all the stamina in the world and a defiler will come out well on top when it comes to HP buffing... or just about anything else for that matter (other then Prophetic Aegis).Sure, they gave us some HP/Sta increasing achievements... and they gave Defilers Soul Ward. Hell, they have so many useful AA's that they don't even know what to do with their points. I find myself scraping to find a reason to spend points on anything other then the buff lines.I know that this is semi-offtopic, but nothing that I have seen post-expansion leads me to believe that, in a test between maximizing benefits, a defiler wouldn't come out on top as far as choice for a MT-group Shaman. For every one thing that ONLY a mystic can do in the MT group (I won't even bother comparing out of group effects, as they are just that and have no relevance in the decision), it seems to me that a defiler has something superior to offer.<div></div>

[Raff]

<DIV>One thing for both of our classes to keep in mind on HP buffing... Adornments. These will make end game MT's HP pools really large, the couple of hundred HP differences between our buffs (if that how it will work out now) wouldn't be much of a major factor - IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for AA's - well I haven't looked at the mystics and am less than thrilled w/ the defilers since our debuffs were changed from percentages to straight values. I'm still trying to get over it how lame they are now... I wouldn't assume the grass is greener no matter wht your perspective is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace, fellow shaman!</DIV>

[Banditman]

I think you pretty much leave Adornments out of the equation.  A tank would be crazy in many respects to put STA adornments on.There are only four slots where +STA is an option:  Legs, Feet, Wrist 1, Wrist 2.For Legs, you're choosing between STR and STA.  In this slot, most tanks will probably take STA.  +14.For Feet, you're choosing between AGI and STA.  AGI is really hard to come by, so you probably take AGI here.In the Wrist slots, you've got tons of choices against STA.  Increased Block rate and increased Mitigation are the likely candidates here.All in all, your tank is probably only going to be getting 14 STA from Adornments.For now, I'm going to trust that the Devs won't allow gear to artifically devalue buffs.  I hope that this was the whole point of rebalancing combat in the first place.The numbers need to be taken, to see where it stands.  I hope that the AA's and the new cap have made things more equitable.<div></div>

[Raff]

<DIV>I was implying raw HP adornments, not STA. Pretty sure I saw adornments for 400hp on beta... hardly a fact based argument on my part - but I'm pretty sure those will be available.</DIV>

[YourPIMP]

I'm a bruiser and I tested putting a mystic in my group and buffing me with only the mystic and myself in grouped I was at 9,800 HP I then moved a Defiler in group and had him buff me. I ended up with 9300ish.So my conclusion would be mystics now buff about 600 more HP give or take. Is there something I'm missing? Cause you all seem to be saying defilers still buff more.......Thanks in advance for any information you may be able to provided.<div></div>

[Raff]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YourPIMP wrote:<BR>I'm a bruiser and I tested putting a mystic in my group and buffing me with only the mystic and myself in grouped I was at 9,800 HP I then moved a Defiler in group and had him buff me. I ended up with 9300ish.<BR><BR>So my conclusion would be mystics now buff about 600 more HP give or take. Is there something I'm missing? Cause you all seem to be saying defilers still buff more.......<BR><BR>Thanks in advance for any information you may be able to provided.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>was that consistant HP, any chance the mystic was using bolster (short term mystic big stat buff)? You would have noticed it make you grow in size when on.<BR>

[YourPIMP]

No bolster<div></div>

[Raff]

well, now you have my curiosity up... what is your base STA?<p>Message Edited by Raffta on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:10 PM</span>

[Thatdumbg]

Alrighty, here are your numbers.I tested this on a guardian with 525 stamina starting, then I took off gear and tested it with 320 stamina starting. If you duplicate this note, please keep in mind that taking traditions for max health (2.5 percent each time) will throw off the numbers for raw health buffs.Mystic Buffs (All at Master):Avatar- 76 STASpirit of the Mammoth- 102 STA (enhanced to rank 5)Umbral Mettle: 321 HPForetelling: 804 HP (enhanced to rank 5)My results:At 525 Stamina:The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 703), and resulted in 484 health.The total raw HP buffed is 1125.The total Health Buffed is 1,609.At 320 Stamina:The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 49<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and resulted in 677 health.The total raw HP buffed is 1125.The total Health Buffed is 1,802.Defiler Buffs:Rapacity- 666 HPPortent- 964 HPMalevolent Efflux- 321 HPThe total raw HP buffed is 1,951.End results:For a tank with 525 stamina, a defiler buffs 342 more health then a mystic.For a tank with 320 stamina, a defiler buffs 149 more health then a mystic.In either case, a defiler is slightly superior.If you keep in mind, that, for a raid tank, 525 stamina will be on the low side once they are fully equipped in EoF Fabled (My estimations from what I have seen on gear: 700-750ish as a ballpark), and that mystic stamina buffs will become even less efficient when that happens, then the defiler is moderately more superior to a mystic for health buffing in a tank group.The margin has closed, I'll give it that... but we buff against a deminishing returns system, and they don't. This will always bite us in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when you speak of end-game fully equipped tanks/raiders.<div></div>

[icetower]

<DIV>Something of an improvement, however when you consider it costs us 1 extra buff plus 10 AA points, I don't think it's too much to ask for us to be at least equal in raw hps, or a couple hundred in front.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Expiate]

<div><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:Alrighty, here are your numbers.I tested this on a guardian with 525 stamina starting, then I took off gear and tested it with 320 stamina starting. If you duplicate this note, please keep in mind that taking traditions for max health (2.5 percent each time) will throw off the numbers for raw health buffs.Mystic Buffs (All at Master):Avatar- 76 STASpirit of the Mammoth- 102 STA (enhanced to rank 5)Umbral Mettle: 321 HPForetelling: 804 HP (enhanced to rank 5)My results:At 525 Stamina:The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 703), and resulted in 484 health.The total raw HP buffed is 1125.The total Health Buffed is 1,609.At 320 Stamina:The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 49<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and resulted in 677 health.The total raw HP buffed is 1125.The total Health Buffed is 1,802.Defiler Buffs:Rapacity- 666 HPPortent- 964 HPMalevolent Efflux- 321 HPThe total raw HP buffed is 1,951.End results:For a tank with 525 stamina, a defiler buffs 342 more health then a mystic.For a tank with 320 stamina, a defiler buffs 149 more health then a mystic.In either case, a defiler is slightly superior.If you keep in mind, that, for a raid tank, 525 stamina will be on the low side once they are fully equipped in EoF Fabled (My estimations from what I have seen on gear: 700-750ish as a ballpark), and that mystic stamina buffs will become even less efficient when that happens, then the defiler is moderately more superior to a mystic for health buffing in a tank group.The margin has closed, I'll give it that... but we buff against a deminishing returns system, and they don't. This will always bite us in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when you speak of end-game fully equipped tanks/raiders.<div></div><hr></blockquote>ugh, your post is so disgustingly good.</div>

[ecoskii]

<P>Many thanks - exactly what i wanted to know.  I've seen that our MT is just over 13k now with temp + mystic in MT grp, quite an improvement on pre-eof.  </P> <P>Slightly bugged that virtually all my spells are M1 except Mammoth and Avatar - I have never seen Mammoth drop, and Avatar has become rare recently too.  Being the only shammie in a raid guild I would have expected to see them by now but no luck.....</P>

[Banditman]

Raiding KoS 5 days a week since early May . . . I've never seen either of those drop.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR> <DIV>Something of an improvement, however when you consider it costs us 1 extra buff plus 10 AA points, I don't think it's too much to ask for us to be at least equal in raw hps, or a couple hundred in front.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OK.. can we have your Strength, AGI, and Power buffs then? I love how everyone's always focused on HP, and in the grand scheme of things a couple 100 HP difference on the tank is not going to make or break the raid, if you're getting to the point where you're saying to your self.. Man.. if he only had 100 more HP we would have won that fight.. you would have lost the fight anyways.</P> <P>Sorry, not meant to be rude but the HP craze is driving me nuts!</P> <P>You guys get a ton of other stat buffs that we do not get. HP is not the end-all be-all of shammy buffs you make it out to be.</P>

[Banditman]

Thanks for your input . . .<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

    Sure, you can have avatar's strength... If I can have your proc buff.Hell, you can have its agility too... can I get Tendrils of Horror instead?Please... don't... even... start... with... me.<div></div>

[AbyssLaboli]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Progress. At least its progress. You want to be in Main tank so bad, remember the days of T5 where you were lucky to be IN the raid. At least I stay awake in a DPS group.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>T5 raid - " mystic huh.... ok stand over there and spot heal the cloth group. No, no, no dont use the wards, they are useless. And ugh yeah dont waste energy on debuffs cause you may or may not make the mob stronger. Hey in fact would you mind sitting this one out so we can get another templar in?"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P>

[Banditman]

I think you may have a rather skewed vision of T5, or possibly a skewed recollection.I was in the MT group when my guild first killed Darathar . . . back when that REALLY meant something, the spring after release./reminisce off<div></div>

[Raff]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WinOpiate wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thatdumbguy wrote:<BR>Alrighty, here are your numbers.<BR><BR>I tested this on a guardian with 525 stamina starting, then I took off gear and tested it with 320 stamina starting. If you duplicate this note, please keep in mind that taking traditions for max health (2.5 percent each time) will throw off the numbers for raw health buffs.<BR><BR>Mystic Buffs (All at Master):<BR>Avatar- 76 STA<BR>Spirit of the Mammoth- 102 STA (enhanced to rank 5)<BR>Umbral Mettle: 321 HP<BR>Foretelling: 804 HP (enhanced to rank 5)<BR><BR>My results:<BR><BR>At 525 Stamina:<BR>The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 703), and resulted in 484 health.<BR>The total raw HP buffed is 1125.<BR>The total Health Buffed is 1,609.<BR><BR>At 320 Stamina:<BR>The net stamina buffed is 178 (Resulting Total: 49<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and resulted in 677 health.<BR>The total raw HP buffed is 1125.<BR>The total Health Buffed is 1,802.<BR><BR>Defiler Buffs:<BR>Rapacity- 666 HP<BR>Portent- 964 HP<BR>Malevolent Efflux- 321 HP<BR><BR>The total raw HP buffed is 1,951.<BR><BR><BR>End results:<BR>For a tank with 525 stamina, a defiler buffs 342 more health then a mystic.<BR>For a tank with 320 stamina, a defiler buffs 149 more health then a mystic.<BR>In either case, a defiler is slightly superior.<BR>If you keep in mind, that, for a raid tank, 525 stamina will be on the low side once they are fully equipped in EoF Fabled (My estimations from what I have seen on gear: 700-750ish as a ballpark), and that mystic stamina buffs will become even less efficient when that happens, then the defiler is moderately more superior to a mystic for health buffing in a tank group.<BR><BR>The margin has closed, I'll give it that... but we buff against a deminishing returns system, and they don't. This will always bite us in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when you speak of end-game fully equipped tanks/raiders.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ugh, your post is so disgustingly good.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Fantastic data, saves me the effort :0 I found the same results when testing w/ our raid mystic. Given the bolster buff, I'd like to think the gap has been filled and we are certianly equals here. Hope you mystics see it that way too.<BR></DIV>

[Mystiq]

The gap hasn't been filled by any means.The EoF achievements don't make us equal.Bolster - a short duration buff that, with the extra 10 seconds duration from the achievements, will cost over 480 power by the time it falls off - doesn't make us equal.Stamina will never be equal to raw hitpoints.<div></div>

[AbyssLaboli]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>I think you may have a rather skewed vision of T5, or possibly a skewed recollection.<BR><BR>I was in the MT group when my guild first killed Darathar . . . back when that REALLY meant something, the spring after release.<BR><BR>/reminisce off<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I Dont think I had a skewed anything that spring, except maybe a kabob or two. But such a lackluster responce to lite hearted pun could perhaps indicate nothing more then a slight lack of the sence of humor. sigh.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mystiq]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>AbyssLabolith wrote:<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I think you may have a rather skewed vision of T5, or possibly a skewed recollection.I was in the MT group when my guild first killed Darathar . . . back when that REALLY meant something, the spring after release./reminisce off<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">I Dont think I had a skewed anything that spring, except maybe a kabob or two. But such a lackluster responce to lite hearted pun could perhaps indicate nothing more then a slight lack of the sence of humor. sigh.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Personal experiences from the past are just that - personal. Raid class configurations have always been in a state of flux, and no one setup was "the way it always was then" nor is it "the way it always is now". Different, not skewed.Back when shamans were royally messed up, Banditman and myself still spent T5 in the MT group. It sounds like you didn't. So....yeah.As it happens, your description of your experience from T5 mirrors my experiences now, most of the time. Placed somewhat randomly in the raid unless an encounter actually calls for some offtanking.</div>