Torpor or not Torpor.....that is the question.

[Thunderthyze]

<DIV>My general approach in group is to hit the MT with Torpor (adept 3) then the single target ward (master 1), followed by a target debuff and repeat ST ward. Most things are pretty much dead by then but if they are still standing I will generally alternate a couple of debuffs with the ST ward as necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other day a tank requested that I did not Torpor him as it slowed him (duuuhh!) even though we had plentiful dps elsewhere in the group. Rather than start an argument I replaced torpor with Bolster (adept 3) and carried on. Clearly the recharge on Bolster means that it can't be used in a chain pulling environment and so I spent far more energy warding (and actually healing!).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is everyone else's experience here? Is it only we Mystics that love Torpor?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My main alt (after my 70 Mystic) is a Beserker and I don't mind what the heck buffs me up so long as I can retain aggro (isn't that what taunts are for?). The other day I was being healed by another mystic and rarely lost much health nor lost aggro even though I was being out dps'ed. Who cares who takes them down so long as we're all standing at the end?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comments?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thunderthyze on <span class=date_text>09-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[tebion]

i've never had problems using torpor on tanks (cept maybe monks/bruisers as they need their procs to get aggro, especially against groups). If any of the plate tanks cries about being slowed ... well, explain him what taunts are for ... torpor rocks, period, i use it as often as possible and use bolster in addition to it pre pull or in tricky situations<div></div>

[Leji]

<DIV>The slow is no big deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The snare can be annoying though (or illarious).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just make sure he isnt snared when he's pulling then tell him to suck it up.</DIV>

[Munter78]

<DIV>the tank will still be able to taunt at his normal speed, just will lose 25% in autoattack.  Torpor is the most efficient healing spell mystics have.  So just tell him to suck it up.  He wont lose any agro, if he does.....get a new tank. </DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

    The question here is, does NOT using torpor put you in a position to where you end up pulling slower or less frequently? I mean, its all about the end result. If you have the power pool/regen to get by without it, then it isn't a huge issue. If it does slow you down, then he should just bite the bullet and deal with it... the snare portion can be annoying sometimes, but oh well.<div></div>

[tebion]

<div></div>well, when the mob is dead and torpor is still up, one hit on the shortcut and it is dispelled -> snare is no more a problem for the next pull, therefore it shouldn't really slow you down and you have more time debuffing/nuking/playing with dogdog <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ah yes, i mean hard encounters ... the normal trash mobs with a good tank doesnt really require more healing than maybe a ward every now and then, then torpor is not really needed of course.<div></div><p>Message Edited by tebion on <span class=date_text>09-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[KNINE]

I just never tell the tank, hey i'm casting torpor on you and slowing ur DPS. It is one of our biggest heals at times over a long fight.  Check a parse one time and look how much it heals for over a long fight. Cast it as often as you can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[AziBam]

<DIV>Totally agree with Tebion.  Most of the time I would have to have an extremely observant tank for them to even know it is up.  I don't cast it until they are positioned and if it happens to be up still at the end of the fight, I hit the button again to toggle it off immediately.  (That also starts the refresh timer again rather than wasting some of it after the fight is over.)  I also agree that it isn't always needed but on hard encounters it rocks.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The only part of the spell that tanks are likely to really notice is the movement rate decrease so if we only have it on when they are standing in position for the fight they won't ever be the wiser but they will be much healthier for the experience.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Terq]

<P>The recast on bolster means that it won't be up in a fast pull situation, such as clearing the Lab trash.  But those situations, depending on your tank of course, you really don't need bolster on the pull anyhow.  </P> <P>Just let the tank get positioned before you cast torpor, and you should be fine.  Not casting torpor will put you, and possibly your raid at a big healing disadvantage. </P>

[Caetrel]

The first thing a tank needs to do is understand how the other classes in his group/ raid work and adjust accordingly.  Unless you are constantly slowing him in between fights he has no need to gripe.  I have a 70 mystic to play on raids sometimes so I am perhaps a little biased.   From an MT perspective, the attack speed -mod has zero effect on hate and little on dps.  The actual slow  can be annoying, but a good mystic will only cast it once the tank is set in place and will either cancel it at the end of a fight or not use it at the end. The only time when it's not really cool to use Torpor is a memwipe fight that requires the tank to move a bit...Bloodbeast, x2 crab etc...even then you can use it, just have to be mindful of timing. <div></div>

[Finora]

<P>I've never had a tank request not to be torpored.  And like someone else said, most tanks don't even notice when you put it on them, unless you cast it really early and they are still moving the mob around. </P> <P>Either your tank wanted to dance 'round in circles during the fight or he mistakenly thought he was supposed to be doing real dps <G>.</P>

[Eepop]

Rules of Torpor 1) Only use when the snare portion is a moot point.  If the tank is standing still, snare doesn't hurt him. 2) For normal group fights, dont use Torpor.  You can easily heal without it.  3) For tough group fights, use it and single target ward while you get debuffs up.  Once debuffs are up, you should be able to drop Torpor. 4) For raids, use Torpor.  Every time it is up. If any tank whines about being torpor'd, fire up your parser*, and parse one fight with and one fight without.  Tell them how much your HPS increased, then tell them the amount thier DPS decreased.  That should shut them up. * If you dont have one, get one...I reccommend ACT. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

Torpor is a spell design that I love - I love the idea of having consequences for actions beyond "power use."  For a tank to unilaterally decide that you cannot use X spell is sheer stupidity, imo.<div></div>

[thedu]

My typical guideline for use is if the group is attempting something very hard then it's Torpor, ST, torpor again.  If it's easy stuff that the tank mitigates fine then just regular ST.  Raids are almost always Torpor, ST, torpor and the occasional Oberon thrown in; <div></div>

[Loki9s]

I rarely use Torpor outside raids unless the tank is letting aggro roll to me on a pull or taking way to much damage before i can get ST ward off.  In groups I don't really use Bolster to often, aside from the random "haha your massive" effect. Hit a dps with it in a group and watch them fall in love hah. Bolster and torpor i use constantly on raids, in or out of the MT group doesn't matter.

[Vayn]

<DIV>If a tank ever told me I couldn't use Torpor I'd /leave.  I cancel it if they are the puller but, please...  beyond that it's a silly request.  </DIV>

[Godelure]

<div></div>Hey guys, I'm a raidMT (guard) and I can tell you something:In a normal Labrun we don't have any serious healing problems, with or without torpor, but sometimes we get serious aggro problems. And no that has nothing to do with group setup (dirge+coercer+sometimes assa, every single aggro skill on M1), just some trigger happy wizards/brigands/assas.For clearing trashmobs as fast as we can (to be able to do Lab+Lyceum) I usually ask the mystic to drop Torpor because a huuuge part of my hate generation is done by my DPS rather than taunts and taunting stance only. It's sad that tanks have to rely on dps to keep aggro but without buckler and max +haste +dps I can get there is no way to hold aggro against our mastered out briga who is already holding back. And the -25% attack speed slow isn't really helpful in this scenario!For nameds Torpor should be up, no question, don't get me wrong, it's a really helpful and mighty spell. I just wanted to point out some situations in which it might be a good idea to use single/group ward only instead of going "a tank who tells you to drop Torpor just plain sucks and should be kicked, if he even notices the spell".There are some tanks out there who know more than their highest damage <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Vayn]

<DIV>A slow on your Auto Attack has that much effect on your overall dps and agro?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems odd.</DIV>

[Godelure]

<div></div>There is nothing "odd" in there, did you ever actually play a tank class? I chose the STA AA tree which gives me the buckler reversal (do 500ish melee damage on every successfull parry/block etc. every 30sec) and 76 percent chance to double attack (auto attack damage about 400 solo and 600 something on raid with capped STR and dispatched mobs). Hell I did 1k auto attacks on some of the poor mobs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sorry I dont' want to offend you. But for a (raid) tank his damage is unfortunately a much needed factor to be able to hold aggro :/In some raid situations I'll do more auto attack damage than some dps classes can do with their full arsenal of spells. Or ask the scout classes what they're doing after every CA is maxed out? They long for good dw weapons (or even a fabled 1H if they got the double attack AA tree) with a high damage rating and try to cap both +haste% and +dps% modifiers.There is a good sticky thread in the berserker forum what happens if you have 76% double attack, nearly 100% haste and dps. Your overall damage will... woah, it plain rocks!So Torpor has it's uses as I stated above and I love every mystic who is able to understand it's incredible power, given the right situation. Some mystics don't even use it or worse, don't understand it.If the tank tells you to drop Torpor in a grp setting because he is losing much of his damage, ignore him and slow him down with Torpor <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Vayn]

<DIV>My normal main tank just switched AA lines to the buckler thing so I really haven't had much interaction with it so far.  Actually, our secondary tank switched, too, so I guess I'll be getting an education.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'm seeing is that it's noticeably harder in some cases to keep him healed now.  So...  it's a quandary because a dead tank does no dps at all and torpor is one of our most powerful healing tools.  Especially in long, hard fights where mana becomes a factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He never had problems keeping agro before he changed to the buckler AA (with fully fabled/mastered out Brigand & Assassin & Necro in the raid party).  I'm kind of wondering why he made the switch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hmm</DIV>

[Banditman]

Buckler Reversal is the FotM for Warriors.Once smart raid leaders start parsing the damage TAKEN by their tank, they'll realize this isn't such a prize after all.<div></div>

[povarbeast]

Any tank that complains about torpor gets this response .... Deal with it

[JoramEQ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR>Rules of Torpor<BR><BR>1) Only use when the snare portion is a moot point.  If the tank is standing still, snare doesn't hurt him.<BR>2) For normal group fights, dont use Torpor.  You can easily heal without it.  <BR>3) For tough group fights, use it and single target ward while you get debuffs up.  Once debuffs are up, you should be able to drop Torpor.<BR>4) For raids, use Torpor.  Every time it is up.<BR><BR><BR>If any tank whines about being torpor'd, fire up your parser*, and parse one fight with and one fight without.  Tell them how much your HPS increased, then tell them the amount thier DPS decreased.  That should shut them up.<BR><BR><BR>* If you dont have one, get one...I reccommend ACT.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>70 Mystic here.  This is almost exactly what I was going to say.  </P> <P> </P> <P>In my experience a raid tank that can't hold aggro has nothing to do with Torpor.  Your trigger happy DPS deserve what they get...  Though I do understand the need to try to save them anyway if they do grab aggro which is why I always am ready to drop torpor at a moments notice if I see one getting away.</P> <P>In a small group though, I've never run across the situation of a tank telling me to stop because torpor is rarely even necessary.</P>