Ebbing Spirit (lvl 70) vs Gasping Spirit (lvl 56)

[Balabear]

<DIV>I've been wondering this for some time already, now after having searched through this forum not finding an answer, I just ask away.</DIV> <DIV>I compared both of our group cures, the lvl 56 and the lvl 70 one and as per description upon examining them it says the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>56 - Gasping Spirit</FONT> (Adept 1): "Dispels <FONT color=#ff6600>75</FONT> levels of hostile disease, poison, divine, mental and magic effects on group members (AE)."</DIV> <DIV>                               (Adept 3): "Dispels <FONT color=#ff6600>87</FONT> levels........"</DIV> <DIV>                             (Master 1): "Dispels <FONT color=#ff6600>100</FONT> levels......"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>70 - Ebbing Spirit</FONT> (Adept 1): "Dispels <FONT color=#ffff00>93</FONT> levels........"</DIV> <DIV>                             (Adept 3): "Dispels <FONT color=#ffff00>109</FONT> levels......"</DIV> <DIV>                            (Master 1): "Dispels <FONT color=#ffff00>124</FONT> levels....."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as far as I know, the level that is mentioned in that effects description is meant to cure anything which is being cast by creatures up to the particular level of whatever version you have the spell at. (Long sentence but I hope it's clear what I meant to say smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now since I'm level 70 myself, I have yet seen any mobs which are higher than level 75. Am I missing something, or is there no reason to get any higher version of this kind of spell than Gasping Spirit (Adept 1) <STRONG>at this time</STRONG>? I know maybe in future expansion it might be useful to be able to cure higher than 75, but I am speaking <STRONG>as of now</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't see a reason to get Ebbing Spirit at all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance for your replies, any clearing up is appreciated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balaghira</DIV> <DIV>Mystic of Antonia Bayle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: and as I was lucky enough to find Gasping Spirit (Master 1), I think I'll be fine with that one until the next 3 or 4 expansions, but my question is more meant in general.</DIV>

[Loki9s]

I don't really have a good answer for that, but I would like to say that I have the ad3 of Gasping Spirit and I don't plan on getting Ebbing at all because i'm a cheapskate.

[Loral]

<DIV>Replace "levels" by "counters".</DIV>

[Banditman]

I use the Ad3 of Gasping Spirit.  It cures the catalyst AE (Soul Evisceration) from Tarinax the Destroyer, a Level 75 mob.Good enough for me.<div></div>

[Balabear]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Loralor wrote:<BR> <DIV>Replace "levels" by "counters".</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Does this mean Tarinax, for example, casts his AEs with more "counters" than 75? Just curious, as since I started my mystic a loooong time ago, I never really noticed a spell that I wasnt able to cure based on my "levels" theory, hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And thanks everyone for your replies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bala</DIV><p>Message Edited by Balabear on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Terq]

Ebbing Spirit: I had the adept 1 version for a long time and it cured everything out there.  I upgraded to adept 3 out of peer pressure.  If a master drops, I guess that I will scribe it, but I won't be buying one off the broker.

[trin ka]

<DIV>Does the lvl 70 adept 1 Cure cost more pwr then the lvl 56 adept 1? If so..and the adept 3 of the 56 spell cost less pwr and cures the same stuff the lvl 70 adept 1 does...I'll continue using the 56 lvl adept 3 like I do now.....after hacking for days I got all the moonstones I needed for 60-70 upgrades....Ebbing spirit wasnt on my sages list.</DIV>

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>Balabear wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Loralor wrote: <div>Replace "levels" by "counters".</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Does this mean Tarinax, for example, casts his AEs with more "counters" than 75? Just curious, as since I started my mystic a loooong time ago, I never really noticed a spell that I wasnt able to cure based on my "levels" theory, hehe.</div> <div> </div> <div>And thanks everyone for your replies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>Bala</div><p>Message Edited by Balabear on <span class="date_text">08-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No.What it means is that "sometimes" it is possible to cure more than one effect of a single type with only one cast.  Let's say my target has 30 "counters" of Poison_DoT_01 and 45 "counters" of "Poison_Debuff_01".A single cast of 75 levels (counters) should cure both effects.I personally don't find this way of thinking to be beneficial to me.  A "chance" to "possibly" cure multiple effects with one cast is not outweighed in the long run by the power saved using the older, more efficient cure.Your mileage may vary.</div>

[Ordate]

<DIV>I'm actually of the other camp.  If my cure goes off that is 73 more power then the next teir down and it by chance knocks off a few extra buffs then I think it is worth the small amount of extra mana.  Sure I could end up spending a little more in the long run, but if it by chance knocks off a dot and a stun on the tank I think it is an overall gain as it saves me time of an additional cast.</DIV> <DIV>For me time is often more of a limiting factor then mana.  Most fights I don't sweat over mana.  I sweat over will I have enough time to cast this and that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Banditman]

Look at it this way . . .If there are so many effects on the tank that you're looking for your group cure to get multiple effects off, then chances are you're going to have to follow group cure with "something" else anyway.Why not save the power on your group cure, then simply follow with Ancient Balm and *know* that you got it all.The other option is to allow the Warden to do the curing.  Wardens have a cure all similar to Ancient Balm that adds a heal to the target for each effect it removes.  It's pretty powerful.<div></div>

[HermDa]

This makes sense.  I have noticed that sometimes I will cure 2 or even 3 noxious dots with 1 cast of Ebbing Spirit.  I had previously assumed 75 levels was refering to the level of the mob casting it.  This makes more sense and also creates the need for upgrading the spell.

[Ordate]

<P>Thats not what Im saying.  If there is a bunch of debuffs on a tank, Im not going to just use my group cure to try and get more then one.  I would be better off ancient balm and st the rest.  What I was saying is anytime I have to remove an effect from the group or part of the group and I use the group cure I am willing to spend that little extra mana to have the chance to knock off any additional buffs that might be out there.  This saves me time when it does happen.  Does it happen always?  No.  The point Im saying is that it is a gamble that I think is worth it.  Even though I would go so far as to say the odds are stacked towards the "house" where I will be wasting some mana but getting no additional extra time saved in the long run I think it is a good trade off.  I don't think there are too many mystics out there that struggle with power on most fights.  Half the time I don't even bother using my helm/manastone because I know I won't need that power.  So if power isn't an issue I'm looking at other things that can overall improve my performance.</P>

[Eepop]

And with that method you always have the option to swap the lower level one onto your hotbar in between fights if you find yourself getting low on mana consistently. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I simply don't want to see Tarinax at 10% and go . . . "Crap, outta power and here comes Soul Evisceration".Your mileage may vary.<div></div>

[Eepop]

As with most everything in this game, its conditional. There are obvious situations on both sides of the fence where one is better than the other. If only we could do some macro scripting and do: IF power > 60     usea Ebbing Spirit ELSE    usea Gasping Spirit ENDIF <div></div>

[Ordate]

<P>Very true, but if you know in advance how a fight runs and behaves you can generally tool your spell bars (as Epop suggested) before you even begin.  Big T doesn't need much curing(beyond his icky ae) but needs lots of mana.  Going into the fight you can change out your spell bar to reflect this.   Personally I am working on loading spell bars for particular encounters.  Big T is the one that really made me start thinking about this because he is the first mob I have ever seen that knocks buffs off.  As I don't normally run those in my hotbars having them handy for Big T is useful if you can swing the cast in between everything else going on.</P> <P>Edit in:</P> <P>The biggest danger I think to having the group cure at the highest level would be unexpected pulls.  Aka instead of getting one raid encounter you get 2 or 3.  This is where suddenly you are not geared for mana conservation and it is needed.</P><p>Message Edited by Ordate on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[Eepop]

I havent messed with the hotkey loading commands, but that is a good point.  About how long does it it usually take to load up a new set? I just have another bar with my swap ins, like my oberon call outs and my lyceum curing button*.  But taking some time to set up the keysets may be worthwhile to get me some more screen space. *  /usea Ancient Balm ; :usea Cure Trauma uses Ancient Balm if it can, then tries to use cure trauma <div></div>

[Ordate]

<P>No real load time that I have noticed, but I've only been using it with at most 4 spell switchs atm.  Also info out there is a little dated or I couldn't follow their directions.  The only thread I know about the command says you need to use the drive path for the file which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.  Aka it says use /savehotkeys c:blahblah.dat I just type in /savehotkeys <name>.</P> <P>Actually I just thought about how that command actually works.  It doesn't really matter that it replaces out only 4 of my actual spells as it loads all your hotbars regardless.  So in answer, minimal time even on a crappy machine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Ordate on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR>and my lyceum curing button*. <BR>*<BR> /usea Ancient Balm ; :usea Cure Trauma<BR>uses Ancient Balm if it can, then tries to use cure trauma<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Add <STRONG>/cancel_spellcast</STRONG> as the first line. Will cancel whatever you are currently casting to cast the cure. Thoses Debilitates ARE really that nasty.

[Banditman]

Debilitate is [Removed for Content] now.  This is the Halls of Fate / Laboratory of Lord Vyemm debuff.Invalidate is NOT [Removed for Content].  This shows up in Halls of Seeing.Discombobulation is . . . ridiculous.  This is from the new Adventure pack.I've never seen anything nasty in Lyceum really.  Gnillaw is kinda nasty with all his adds, but it's not an effect.  Gnorbl can be trouble if you aren't careful, but in general he's easy once you understand what is happening.  Essence of Fear is cake.  Vilucidae is kinda spunky at times, but he's more an endurance test than anything else.You do know that you can switch out your primary hotbar on the fly yes?<SHIFT> + <#> where # is a numeric from 0 to 9.  Will bring up that hotbar in the primary hotbar.  I mainly use it when I need to re-buff.  I've got all my buffs on one hotbar that I bring up when we wipe so I can quickly re-buff.  I've got a lot of my buffs in macros there.1 - Runic + Umbral Mettle2 - Spirit of the Mammoth3 - /target myself, Foretelling, Ursine4 - Avatar + Foretelling (I manually target MT first)5 - Summon Dogdog + Spiritual Foresight6 - Virulence + Aura of Warding + /pet backoff7 - Immunities + Aura of Haste + /pet backoff (for use every time I zone)<div></div>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Debilitate is [Removed for Content] now.  This is the Halls of Fate / Laboratory of Lord Vyemm debuff.<BR><BR>Invalidate is NOT [Removed for Content].  This shows up in Halls of Seeing.<BR><BR>Discombobulation is . . . ridiculous.  This is from the new Adventure pack.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, well. All thoses can turn a raid southward if not cured fast enough. Even Debilitate on a Tank that is just barely at the MIT cap is kinda nasty, especially for mobs that have a tendency to follow it up with their high-damage CA... (name escapes me ATM) :smileywink:<BR>

[Eepop]

Guess my raid group is just not as uber as yours Bandit. If I dont cure, we get creamed, if I cure, we are golden. As for cancelling casting, Im usually not in the MT group in Lyceum, so I dont really need to cancel casts.  Either I need to spam it mindlessly, or work it in when I can, based on how the fight is going.  <div></div>

[Ordate]

<DIV>Ya I know about cycling hot bars.  Whenever I do the you killed kenny macro I have to cycle through to hotbar 9 to do that.  I probably should try and clean up my hotbars some for things I dont use anymore, but at this time my bars are full.  That and I like some things to always be in the same place even if switching the level of the spell out.  That would mean I would have to make duplicate hotbars that way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and loralor, while yes, debilitate can be nasty and make healers have to work harder if not cured it is nowhere near the one shot wonder of the other 2 debuffs.  You can heal through debilitate because the tank doesn't get one shot'ed.  The other two mentioned, will often cause a tank to be one shot'ed if not cured or in the case of the adventure pack one cause you to go nuts on healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ordate on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[Banditman]

Has nothing to do with Uber.  Nothing at all.  Debilitate was nerfed a while ago.  It's just not a killer the way it was.I suppose they felt it was too strong - I don't know.  I do know that pretty much any raid buffed tank can take a couple shots while under Debilitate now.  It was a one shot death sentence prior to the nerf.  I remember very clearly our MT walking up to a group of trash mobs and just plain dying.  The mobs barely moved.  He died that fast.If you're having trouble with Debilitate, consider putting a Fury in the MT group so they can use Urchin on pulls.  That in and of itself will probably be enough to counter it while you grow in experience and gear.It's funny . . .When you first begin raiding, Mystics and Furies are valuable in the MT group.  As your raid force becomes more seasoned and gear improves, Furies and Mystics are less valuable than Wardens and Defilers.<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

    If debilitate still trips you up, maybe having a priest (or two) designated to do nothing but spam trauma cures on the MT would help you out.<div></div>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>If you're having trouble with Debilitate, consider putting a Fury in the MT group so they can use Urchin on pulls.  That in and of itself will probably be enough to counter it while you grow in experience and gear. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>*lol* Okay, we are probably way too used to curing Trauma effects on Labs/Lyceum raids to notice that the Delibitate effect was reduced. It always goes down the second it is up :smileyvery-happy:<BR>

[Eepop]

Well, my guild's raiding alliance kinda fizzled out so I havent been in Lyceum for a month or so.  And we were running fury/templar/defiler in MT group.  I was in non-MT group. I found it best to spam the cures at the beginning of the fight, at least until the initial spikes tappered out and then do a cure every other spell. In general, though, as a somewhat casual raid alliance and not a hardcore raid guild, we were overall under equipped.  The tank didnt have lots of overflow over the mit cap, etc. One debilitate may not have killed him, but when all four mobs can put them on they can stack up fast if you arent constantly curing. <div></div>

[Loki9s]

The dirge in our MT group sits across the room from me, it's hilarious to hear us on pulls with bad debuffs as he's shouting across the room when i should be spamming cures. 

[Eepop]

Yeah, unfortunately my wife is a troubador, not a dirge, so she can't help me out with that. <div></div>

[Munter78]

<DIV>Ok, thread is a little off topic.......go figure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways.  I was once told that an epic mob can cast 20 'levels' of effects higher then its lvl.  If this is true, then 95 'levels' of effects are needed.  So yea, still use the lvl 56 master =D.  I still use it, for every mob and cures what it needs to every time.    </DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

<div><blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<div>Ok, thread is a little off topic.......go figure.</div> <div> </div> <div>Anyways.  I was once told that an epic mob can cast 20 'levels' of effects higher then its lvl.  If this is true, then 95 'levels' of effects are needed.  So yea, still use the lvl 56 master =D.  I still use it, for every mob and cures what it needs to every time.    </div><hr></blockquote>   While the programmers might just bump a mobs "caster level" to make an effect uncurable for us (I honestly don't know), this statement in and of itself is innaccurate. As far as I know, there aren't any effects in the game that are curable with the 70 cure that aren't with the 56. Of course, I mastered the stuff anyways, in case that ever changes =P.</div>