Please, Devs.......take STR away from mystics! anything but STR :(

[Munter78]

<DIV>Ok, so my mystic now has over 600 STR solo.   Almost all T7 fabled items a mystic can use, also holds alot of STR.   The difference in 100 str and 600 str for melee combat doesnt effect us like fighter and scout classes, it barely changes it.   Whats the point?  A self buff for 156 str is pointless, I mean it used to be somewhat useful when it had the mauling capability.   Inquisitors can proc power off other classes, Furys with the wis/power buff, give us something, maybe not as good as that, but something useful, please. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Munter78 on <span class=date_text>07-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 PM</span>

[Korpo]

The ursine line not only buffs STR, but provides a hefty HP boost and see stealth, which is more useful than one might think. Sure it's not my first choice of stats to buff, but I'd rather have a self STR/HP buff than a self INT buff for example.

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR>The ursine line not only buffs STR, but provides a hefty HP boost and see stealth, which is more useful than one might think. Sure it's not my first choice of stats to buff, but I'd rather have a self STR/HP buff than a self INT buff for example.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, the HP is half way nice, but pointless really.  Mystics wards are good at keeping HP at 100%, they really arent effective at healing, so whats the point of more HP?  Also, say a mystic does 32-90 dmg with 100 str,  well, that dmg is about 40-96 with 500 str...kinda pointless.  With a self INT buff like  you said, try to boost a mystics int by an extra 400 like the STR, and the spells will me much more effective at doing dmg. They said the mystic should be able to handle himself in hand combat when needed............thats a joke. haha. 

[Whazy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Munter78 wrote:</P> <DIV>Furys with the wis/power buff,....<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Furies get +INT/Power buffs, just to set the record straight.  Wardens get +WIS/Power buffs.

[Leji]

<DIV>The OP lost any kind of credibility he could have had when he said that hp are pointless.</DIV>

[Korpo]

<blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>korpo53 wrote:<BR>The ursine line not only buffs STR, but provides a hefty HP boost and see stealth, which is more useful than one might think. Sure it's not my first choice of stats to buff, but I'd rather have a self STR/HP buff than a self INT buff for example.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, the HP is half way nice, but pointless really.  Mystics wards are good at keeping HP at 100%, they really arent effective at healing, so whats the point of more HP?  Also, say a mystic does 32-90 dmg with 100 str,  well, that dmg is about 40-96 with 500 str...kinda pointless.  With a self INT buff like  you said, try to boost a mystics int by an extra 400 like the STR, and the spells will me much more effective at doing dmg. They said the mystic should be able to handle himself in hand combat when needed............thats a joke. haha. <hr></blockquote>The mystic STR buff does not buff STR by 400, it buffs by 150 or so depending on the level and such.Most of the time in a group or raid I'm not healing/warding myself, since most of the time I'm not the tank. The extra HPs allow me to take a few extra hits or an AE hit or something without having to worry about it.

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <DIV>The OP lost any kind of credibility he could have had when he said that hp are pointless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dunno where you are raiding, but 700 hp doesnt really do jack in terms of eatting an AE to the face, I'd rather sacrifice that in place of extra resists or higher mit so that AE does alot less dmg.  So before you say I loose credibility, how bout you start playing high end raids.

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR><BR>The mystic STR buff does not buff STR by 400, it buffs by 150 or so depending on the level and such.<BR><BR>Most of the time in a group or raid I'm not healing/warding myself, since most of the time I'm not the tank. The extra HPs allow me to take a few extra hits or an AE hit or something without having to worry about it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I mentioned before, all T-7 Mystic armor contains alot of STR as well as WIS, of course, most relic for the mystic doesnt even have WIS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so whats up with that?   Through buffs alone you can get over 300 STR solo.   And again, if you arent the tank, you shouldnt worry bout your HP, worry about your resists, so if an AE does go off, you get hit for less.  

[Leji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Munter78 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <DIV>The OP lost any kind of credibility he could have had when he said that hp are pointless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dunno where you are raiding, but 700 hp doesnt really do jack in terms of eatting an AE to the face, I'd rather sacrifice that in place of extra resists or higher mit so that AE does alot less dmg.  So before you say I loose credibility, how bout you start playing high end raids.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My resists are all well over 80% and, by swapping some stuff around, i can have a few of em over 10k at the same time when i feel like going overkill for a named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've yet to hit a hp cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the high end raids world that i play in, resists are easy to come buy. Hp however are a different matter. To get 700 hitpoints out of gears, you gotta upgrade quite a few pieces, that's nothing to scoff at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Munter78 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <DIV>The OP lost any kind of credibility he could have had when he said that hp are pointless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dunno where you are raiding, but 700 hp doesnt really do jack in terms of eatting an AE to the face, I'd rather sacrifice that in place of extra resists or higher mit so that AE does alot less dmg.  So before you say I loose credibility, how bout you start playing high end raids.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My resists are all well over 80% and, by swapping some stuff around, i can have a few of em over 10k at the same time when i feel like going overkill for a named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've yet to hit a hp cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the high end raids world that i play in, resists are easy to come buy. Hp however are a different matter. To get 700 hitpoints out of gears, you gotta upgrade quite a few pieces, that's nothing to scoff at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>80% resists, on a raid, isnt anything.  As you know, thats 80% for a lvl 70 mob........not a lvl 75.   Also, this is just the % of the dmg you will basically not receive once it is already set to hit you.  So yes, 10k, isnt even going overkill.   And you cant even disprove that 700 hp isnt jack.  Oh, and secondly, there is no hp cap, thats why you can not hit it.   If you can achieve your sta cap, and have decent gear which gives 100+ hp, you are set.  8k hp solo is easy to achieve.    (without bolster)  Please tell me why a mystic would even need more then this?  Power, resists, mit, regen way more important!  And please name your "high end raids"  And dont say Harla, Lyceum, or Bonesnapper.... which are boasted on from your site.  </P> <P>Now, finally.   This post was about the STR part of the spell, so keep it to that. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P>

[Terq]

<DIV>Getting back to the original post, each priest buffs a different stat.  I am sure that you are aware of this.  We just happen to get a lot of strength.  I don't really notice my gear having an especially high amount of strength on it.  Heck, without the buffs up, I am usually encumbered to some extent. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, just wanted to point out that only 1 piece of the relic armor doesn't have wisdom - the boots.</DIV>

[Vulking]

<P>I don't mind have STR as a buff, just give us a use for it.  No way is it needed for raiding. Not by us or by the raid tank,  which, if you are in a raiding guild, has already reached the STR cap with just gear and innate abilities.</P> <P>I have always wondered why Mystics were given strength,  I guess someone had to get it.  But, if each healing class gets something to buff, both for themselves, their group or individuals, it should mean something.  And no the ability to haul strongboxes around is not a reason.  :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>07-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Demon Cleaner]

<div></div><div><blockquote><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>80% resists, on a raid, isnt anything.  As you know, thats 80% for a lvl 70 mob........not a lvl 75.   Also, this is just the % of the dmg you will basically not receive once it is already set to hit you.  So yes, 10k, isnt even going overkill.   And you cant even disprove that 700 hp isnt jack.  Oh, and secondly, there is no hp cap, thats why you can not hit it.   If you can achieve your sta cap, and have decent gear which gives 100+ hp, you are set.  8k hp solo is easy to achieve.    (without bolster)  Please tell me why a mystic would even need more then this?  Power, resists, mit, regen way more important!  And please name your "high end raids"  And dont say Harla, Lyceum, or Bonesnapper.... which are boasted on from your site.  </p><p>Now, finally.   This post was about the STR part of the spell, so keep it to that. </p><hr></blockquote></div>Quite off the subject.... but is there any particular reason you post while impersonating William Shatner?  Your use of commas is insane man!

[Mystiq]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lejina wrote:<div> ...</div> <div>I've yet to hit a hp cap.</div> <div> ...</div><hr></blockquote>lol @ that, QFE.Why not give us Agility instead then eh? Am I the only one with double digit agi <span>:smileysad:</span>? Maybe then we could dodge a hit or two.</div>

[Leji]

<DIV>Seriously, the way caps are distributed, at some point only raw hp and power matter. Everything else can be capped to some extent. To whine about a hp buff is bad simply for the fact that it is a type of buff that never becomes irrelevant. That is what my previous comment meant. Apparently i had to highlight and underline so some people get the hint. Heck, there's an expansion coming with no new lvl cap, a lot of us will be capped on pretty much everything but mitigation, hp and power before the new year. I'm sure raw hp buffs are still going to be meaningless then, alright.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Originally that bear buff was meant to be our solo self buff or something of the like in the minds of the devs i figure. In that context, STR made some sort of sense (not that it made much of a difference in practice). We lost the proc but kept the other stuff. So we're left with STR and no real reason beside maybe some obscure lore that some could think of about the shaman class i guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much a useless stat for us? Yah.</DIV> <DIV>Will that get changed? I'd be surprised.</DIV>

[Goozman]

<DIV>If you get a high damage 2 hand weapon and 100% melee crits, you'll notice quite a bit of difference from 150 str <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Ordate]

<DIV>>>Why not give us Agility instead then eh? Am I the only one with double digit agi <<</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess Im not the only one that has noticed the surprising lack of agility on our gear.  I see str, sta, and int coupled with wisdom all the time but very rarely do I see peices with agility and wisdom.  The only assumption that I can come to is so that they can "seperate" the items between shaman and and the scout class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if you look at the big picture even if they were to switch bear form from str to agi some time down the road we would be right back at this very same problem again.  Mud flation is a fact of life when dealing with games like this.  As time goes on characters will approach all the old "caps".  What I would really like them to do is do some hard planning on their items vs. spells and either work on a set cap in which you could only achieve it focusing entirely on said stat with the spell buffs (and cap be adjusted ever expansion) or do something akin to what they have done in EQ1 where stat buffs can also increase the stat cap.  However, if they were to do the later it really should be an intregal part of the stat buff itself and not a second buff.  That way a buff line doesnt suddenly become unneccesary and only casting the stat cap raiser.</DIV>

[Mystiq]

EQ 2 simply has a flawed stat cap system that needs a major overhaul. Stat caps should be difficult to obtain, not as easy as throwing together a few modest pieces of raid gear. Stats should mean more, and stats at the cap should mean <i>a lot more, </i>in terms of their impact on your gameplay<i>.</i> It should be one of the main carrots of accomplishment one keeps logging in for. What it appears to be at the moment is an artificial ceiling in place to make sure player skill and power doesn't surpass the devs' ability to create challenging game events.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Well, I can understand why they would want that.  How else do they know if the content is do'able ?Now, I do think that gear is way too stat heavy at present.  I wouldn't have any problem seeing the stats on every single piece of gear reduced by 30 to 50 percent.Artificial stat caps such as we have in place now are just dumb.  Caps should be "invisible" to players.  This is to say there shouldn't BE any caps.  Players should be able to push their stats as high as they possibly can.  The limiting factors should be the gear.  Maintaining some level of sanity in stats on gear should be the responsibility of the Dev team.  It's currently out of hand.We've got tanks in our decidedly mid-level raiding guild who are able to cap STR, STA and AGI without any buffs at all.  Capping even one of those stats should be a MAJOR accomplishment.<div></div>

[Nregnen]

see the thread that was already started on this a while ago.. I bumped it up <div></div>

[Banditman]

See the discussion that has turned into something else altogether.<div></div>

[Bjerde]

For the record the Templar gets a Str buff as well, it is a Str/Wiz combo. My Wiz is already capped though, so I would prefer the Str/HP ....the grass is always greener.... ^.^Yes, my AGI is double digits too, sad. You should see my avoidance since I wear plate...horrendous. Yes, plate helps...but not as much as you would think. Since I am getting hit, I am getting interrupted more too.Odinn 70 TemplarBlackburrow<div></div>

[Banditman]

Templars already buff more raw HP than any other class, Defilers a close second.<div></div>

[Ordate]

<DIV>Actually I would beg to differ with plate doesn't help as much as I think.  A couple hundred points of mitigation really makes a huge difference in the damage you take from some mobs.  As I often don't mind having scouts tank for me in many instances I see various cases where I have more mitigation or they have more and what a difference it makes.  At this time, really the thing that doesn't make that much of a difference is avoidance.  Check it out, dev's recognize this problem with the brawlers classes.  They just have the delima of if they were to make it equal, brawlers would truely be unstopable.  (anyone else see various leveled, non-raid geared bruisers take down Enmity solo?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point that I think needs to be made beyond anything else is that reachable stat caps suck.  BM said as much above.  What makes raw hps such a great buff is that there is no actual stat cap on those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 3 types of caps in this game at this time.</DIV> <DIV>1)  There are stats that have "soft" caps.  They are your ability stats (str, agi, etc) and your haste/dps mods. Once these go beyond the cap the returns arent just deminishing, they go to nearly non-exsistant.  Higher then the cap produces little to no effect vs. any encounter.</DIV> <DIV>2)  There are level based caps.  Level based caps include Mitigation, Avoidance, and Resistances.  All of these while they have a cap, exceeding the cap can be useful depending on what you are fighting.  Yellows lower the values some, oranges greatly reduce the value.  Reds, I dont think they even are considered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  However, depending on what you are fighting, exceeding these caps are not neccesarily a bad thing.  While it still may read 80% resistance in your screen, thats only for an even con mob.  Therefore the higher the color the mob, the more is better.</DIV> <DIV>3)  Final cap is the non exsistant cap.  This is raw hit points and mana.  These have no known limit.  A buff to hitpoints yields exactly that much gain in all situations and is unaffected by encounter.  Well other then the mob trying to take those away <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ultimately I wish all buffs either were type 2 or 3.  Preferably 3, but in some cases I can understand where 2 is neccesary.  Classes should not have their usefulness "capped" and become unwanted.  If hit points were capped such as stamina, Im sure we would hear quite the outroar from various people where that is their bread and butter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ordate wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually I would beg to differ with plate doesn't help as much as I think.  A couple hundred points of mitigation really makes a huge difference in the damage you take from some mobs.  As I often don't mind having scouts tank for me in many instances I see various cases where I have more mitigation or they have more and what a difference it makes.  At this time, really the thing that doesn't make that much of a difference is avoidance.  Check it out, dev's recognize this problem with the brawlers classes.  They just have the delima of if they were to make it equal, brawlers would truely be unstopable.  (anyone else see various leveled, non-raid geared bruisers take down Enmity solo?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point that I think needs to be made beyond anything else is that reachable stat caps suck.  BM said as much above.  What makes raw hps such a great buff is that there is no actual stat cap on those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 3 types of caps in this game at this time.</DIV> <DIV>1)  There are stats that have "soft" caps.  They are your ability stats (str, agi, etc) and your haste/dps mods. Once these go beyond the cap the returns arent just deminishing, they go to nearly non-exsistant.  Higher then the cap produces little to no effect vs. any encounter.</DIV> <DIV>2)  There are level based caps.  Level based caps include Mitigation, Avoidance, and Resistances.  All of these while they have a cap, exceeding the cap can be useful depending on what you are fighting.  Yellows lower the values some, oranges greatly reduce the value.  Reds, I dont think they even are considered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  However, depending on what you are fighting, exceeding these caps are not neccesarily a bad thing.  While it still may read 80% resistance in your screen, thats only for an even con mob.  Therefore the higher the color the mob, the more is better.</DIV> <DIV>3)  Final cap is the non exsistant cap.  This is raw hit points and mana.  These have no known limit.  A buff to hitpoints yields exactly that much gain in all situations and is unaffected by encounter.  Well other then the mob trying to take those away <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ultimately I wish all buffs either were type 2 or 3.  Preferably 3, but in some cases I can understand where 2 is neccesary.  Classes should not have their usefulness "capped" and become unwanted.  If hit points were capped such as stamina, Im sure we would hear quite the outroar from various people where that is their bread and butter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>soft caps are based off level, so they are really level based caps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  so just level based caps exist, and the absence of caps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Ordate]

<DIV>Not entirely.  When I say level caps, Im speaking of the level of the mob, not the level of the toon.  A mobs level can influence your raw stats hence why I put them in their own catergory.  Otherwise those would fall more into the soft/hard cap area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bjerde]

A scout can tank much better than a Cleric...so I would tend to disagree they don't get help with the avoidance. Plus, we have no Parry and get interrupted like mad.Templars and Defilers buff HP for exactly the same amount....Templar is not better. If the spells are the same level of quality (both Adept III) the hp numbers are identical between the two classes.Odinn - 70 Templar<div></div>

[tebion]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bjerde wrote:Templars and Defilers buff HP for exactly the same amount....Templar is not better. If the spells are the same level of quality (both Adept III) the hp numbers are identical between the two classes.Odinn - 70 Templar<div></div><hr></blockquote>wrong, templars buff 12 or so hps more than defilers in master I level, yes, the difference is marginal at best but it still is not "exactly the same amount" and i dont want to count how often i survived a fight with less than 20 hps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />btw, that info is from a <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=26125" target=_blank>thread from the templar board</a></div>

[Cybin]

I got a novel idea, how about they just increase the strength to damage ratio for the mystic. If they are suggesting we should be able to hold our own in melee then for goodness sake allow us to use that HIGH str to our advantage and cause some melee damage. I would go as far as to say that we need a 3X increase to how STR affects our attack rating. Cybin

[Banditman]

<P>Mystic DPS is not a problem.  It really isn't.  We've got Mystics close to 400 DPS on these very boards.  I myself have been near that number.</P> <P>Any increase in our melee power (and only our melee power) would create an imbalance.</P> <P>Yes, we solo slowly, more slowly than most.  It's not like this is new information.  We've been slow since . . . launch.</P>

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div><p>Mystic DPS is not a problem.  It really isn't. </p><hr></blockquote>You have a very annoying habit of stating your opinion as if it were a fact. If Mystic dps is not a problem for YOU, it does not mean that it is not a problem per se.<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div><p>Any increase in our melee power (and only our melee power) would create an imbalance.</p><hr></blockquote>Assuming what? That we are currently in a perfect state of balance? Yeah right.<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div><p>Yes, we solo slowly, more slowly than most. It's not like this is new information. We've been slow since . . . launch.</p><hr></blockquote>What is this supposed to mean? Soloing has been a pita from launch therefore it must always be a pita or else the sky will fall in? The gods will be displeased?An increase in dps via melee skill seems completely reasonable to me becausea) We would get to put our joke of a str buff set to some use.b) We are forced to melee when solo because we have no cc.c) It would still limit our dps at range ie against aoe mobs on raids when we should be healing/debuffing.Tell me why other classes that are used just as much as Mystics in raids and groups, and are allowed to solo with relative ease, are somehow also balanced.Which is it?

[FelixDomesticus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> korpo53 wrote:The mystic STR buff does not buff STR by 400, it buffs by 150 or so depending on the level and such.Most of the time in a group or raid I'm not healing/warding myself, since most of the time I'm not the tank. The extra HPs allow me to take a few extra hits or an AE hit or something without having to worry about it. <hr> </blockquote>I mentioned before, all T-7 Mystic armor contains alot of STR as well as WIS, of course, most relic for the mystic doesnt even have WIS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so whats up with that?   Through buffs alone you can get over 300 STR solo.   And again, if you arent the tank, you shouldnt worry bout your HP, worry about your resists, so if an AE does go off, you get hit for less.  <hr></blockquote>I disagree wih your statement about HP. It is VERY handy if (or should I say when) you get aggro. Some tanks chain pull so fast that you have no time to drop ward, so mob takes a longer route booting you to face before tank gets aggro and fight starts. HP is very handy in those situation, since some spells those heroics use can nuke you for 2-3k each.</div>

[FelixDomesticus]

<div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:What is this supposed to mean? Soloing has been a pita from launch therefore it must always be a pita or else the sky will fall in? The gods will be displeased?An increase in dps via melee skill seems completely reasonable to me becausea) We would get to put our joke of a str buff set to some use.b) We are forced to melee when solo because we have no cc.c) It would still limit our dps at range ie against aoe mobs on raids when we should be healing/debuffing.Tell me why other classes that are used just as much as Mystics in raids and groups, and are allowed to solo with relative ease, are somehow also balanced.Which is it?<hr></blockquote>Amen. Finally someone who really thinks what he/she is saying. Mystic solo is pita and I have never understood why it has to be so, after all most quests for example are solo and need lots of mob killing. It is also ridiculous that I can buff my str to heaven and back and still cannot use it for anything useful.</div>

[Ordate]

<DIV>I have a suggestion... If you want more melee dps... Max out your agility aa line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are a highly defensive based character.  Between our wards and our debuffs there are not many that match up to us.  We are highly desired by raiding guilds, most groups will pick us up in a heart beat, we are desired for some of the hardest zones in the game.  I can't think of many other classes that are as universally desired as shaman.  For this desirablility in groups and raids, we have to give up something, that happens to be fast soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we were doing much more dps we would be broken.  As it stands I can go around the first couple of floors of poa solo.  There are a lot of classes that can't do that.  I will admit, part of that is because Im not horridly equipped, but I'm also deffinately not top end.  I have lots of room for improvement.  But still, for a class that is highly desireable in almost all settings, we can't ask for much more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bjerde]

wrong, templars buff 12 or so hps more than defilers in master I level, yes, the difference is marginal at best but it still is not "exactly the same amount" and i dont want to count how often i survived a fight with less than 20 hps <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">btw, that info is from a <a href="message?board.id=13&message.id=26125" target="_blank">thread from the templar board</a>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------At Adept III, it is "exactly the same amount". At Master 1, maybe it is different...not sure why it would be. I didn't look at a chart, I compared the spells myself.Odinn - 70 TemplarRaven - 70 Defiler<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Now, I do think that gear is way too stat heavy at present.  I wouldn't have any problem seeing the stats on every single piece of gear reduced by 30 to 50 percent.Artificial stat caps such as we have in place now are just dumb.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Completely agree.  As I argued with Kendricke on the main boards about... I hate stat caps because it allows itemization and spell design to be lazy.  The control should be the items and abilities THEMSELVES.</div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 AM</span>

[Banditman]

Mystic DPS is fine, right where it's at.  I'm not sure how much more obvious it can be.Not all classes are created equally.  Sorry!Let me show you, mathematically, why Mystic DPS simply *can't* increase appreciably.First, we have to define appreciably.  I don't consider a 10% increase in DPS very significant or appreciable.  In a solo fight which typically takes 40 seconds, you're talking about a difference of 4 seconds.  Not anything you would really even notice.So, would 25% be noticeable?  Yea, I think so.  That would yield a 10 second difference in fight time, make a 40 second fight last only 30.  Nearly everyone would notice that.Now, my own experience shows me that with just a little effort a Mystic is very capable of dealing 300 DPS personally, with dogdog pushing out another 100ish.  This doesn't even start to take into account the STA debuff DPS - and that MUST be accounted for!So, STA debuffs account for let's say 20% of a mobs health.  It may be higher, but let's just use 20% for giggles.Take a solo mob, 12k HP?  Ish?  I dunno, sounds about right.  Based on the single ^ mobs on Carrion Briar, that seems about right.As Mystics, we lead with our STA debuffs.  Wail followed by Eidolon.  5 seconds, 20% health off the top.  Then we start with our true damage dealing, with the mob sitting around 9600 HP.So, 300 DPS + dogdog at 100 DPS . . . 400 DPS . . . 24 seconds total kill time, plus the 5 we used to debuff = 29 seconds.  413 DPS total.  This is possible right now.  Take your melee crits, use big hitting 2H weapons, pump INT, etc.  It can be done now.So, now you want a 25% increase?  You want to kill that mob in 23 seconds?  Ok . . . you want to do 520 DPS as a very defensive oriented Priest?There are numerous classes who can't do that NOW.  Bards struggle to hit numbers like that.  Guardians have a very hard time hitting 500 DPS.  Many Paladins get 500 - 600 DPS, but that's a Pally really pushing hard.So yes, it would be grossly unbalancing to give Mystics, one of the strongest healers on Norrath, a significant DPS upgrade.Sure, you could consider giving those classes a boost to THEIR DPS . . . and then boost the next tier of damage dealers up since the lower tier people have caught up . . . and then the next, and the next, etc.Someone has to be on the bottom.  We are perhaps the strongest single target healers in the game, that's balance.  Clerics are right there with us.  They don't do a lot of damage either, but again, no one questions their ability to heal, just like our ability isn't questioned.  EQLive only dreamed of being this well balanced after 4 years . . . and yet two years have EQ2 in a state that is unbelievably well balanced across the classes.I'm not saying that it doesn't suck to be so slow to solo.  It does.  The point is that we have other areas of strength and that to enhance our weaknesses would put us in a position of being unduly strong by comparison.  You don't have to like it, but there it is.<div></div>

[Terq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR><BR>c) It would still limit our dps at range ie against aoe mobs on raids when we should be healing/debuffing.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with this one.  Once the raid reaches a certain level of gear and resists, it is just as easy to heal all 6 members of a group as it is to heal 2.  There are lots of guilds out there that don't bother jousting, and just melee straight through the AOE.  Mystics are no different in that regard.  If we get a bump in DPS, then it has a direct effect on class balance.  All of a sudden, we are one of the best healers out there, and we do nice DPS?  That sounds like a sure fire way to focus some "balancing" in our direction. </P> <P>I won't comment on other classes abilities to DPS and heal.  There are a few classes and abilities that I still believe are out of balance.  However, I am not going to be the one to aim the nerf-gun.<BR></P>

[icetower]

Oh give me a break.The arguement is that anymore dps given to a mystic would make us broken.A defiler has just as good spells (many are better) and more dps than a Mystic. Therefore Defilers are obviously broken, they no longer need groups, and they solo all the named for masters. LOLThis arguement just holds no water. What would happen to the game if a Mystic got another 200 dps?Nothing at all, except a few solo quests might be more bearable.

[Terq]

<P>I won't disagree with you that soloing is more painful than a root canal.  However, a 200dps bump is very significant.  That puts our DPS on par with some fighters and bards.  That IMHO, is too much.  </P> <P>With our current spell set up, I can solo green-named heroics, and blue non-named.  It takes a long time, but it is doable.  Adding 50% to 75% more DPS on top of that would make us overpowered.  </P> <P>Again, this is my opinion.  Please feel free to show me, other than just conclusory statements, how a 50% increase in our DPS would not be overpowering.  I would love to solo more efficiently as well.  </P>

[Banditman]

With another 200 DPS I would be outdamaging Bards, Pallys, Guardians and running neck in neck with SK's and the personal DPS of Conjurors (read:  non-pet).Yes sir, I would be grossly overpowered with another 200 DPS.Now, Defilers can at times do more damage than we can.  In theory however, we should have more buffing / defensive ability.  This mechanic does not seem to be working at present and I would love to see it fixed.  They can start by removing 30 to 50 percent of the stat bonus on every item in the game.<div></div>

[Leji]

<DIV>When i was leveling (and when i happen to want a group still) it would usually take me less time to find a group than to kill a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This in itself is a factor balancing our weak damage output if you ask me.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lejina on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:10 AM</span>

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Terq wrote:<div></div><p>I won't disagree with you that soloing is more painful than a root canal.  However, a 200dps bump is very significant.  That puts our DPS on par with some fighters and bards.  That IMHO, is too much. </p><p>With our current spell set up, I can solo green-named heroics, and blue non-named.  It takes a long time, but it is doable.  Adding 50% to 75% more DPS on top of that would make us overpowered. </p><p>Again, this is my opinion.  Please feel free to show me, other than just conclusory statements, how a 50% increase in our DPS would not be overpowering.  I would love to solo more efficiently as well. </p><hr></blockquote>Instead, why don't you come up with a real example of how it would make us overpowered.What amazing feats could you pull off with a moderate dps increase?I've just demonstrated that Defilers have more dps (situationally more than 200 extra)and are not the uberclass of eq2. Theres your sample class.Ask your defilers what their extra dps really does for them and they will tell you exactly what i said. It makes things a little less tedious but not much else.Our furys can do 1k dps and don't have trouble getting raidspots because of their decent group heals, don't have much trouble getting groups either. Their main restriction is power, while ours is cast times. Which do you think are easier to acquire, power regen items or cast time reduction items?We are already limited enough to the point where it becomes stifling.Mystics are sooo desired on raids that we sometimes use 2, and never have more than 3 shaman types total (ie 1 defiler). 3/24. WOW, thats what I call shaman raid domination.Fact is, we normally take pretty much one of each class if available and the classes that we double up on most are dps types if others are unavailable. That includes wizards and conjurors.Why is that? because unlike our spells, 2 of the same nuke do not negate each other. If everyone in the group is maxed on stats,the dps types do not lose a good chunk of their abilities. Dps is dps...If we had more wizards and conjurors we could conceivably take 3 of each and they would barely step on each others toes in terms of redundancy.It might not be ideal, but it would work.Imagine the stupidity of taking 5 or 6 shamans.So the classes that dominate soloing are Definitely NOT conversely less used on raids, at least in my neck of the woods. Your raid setup may be vastly different, I don't know.This whole mystic desirability tradeoff: crawling soloability for other mythical benefits is simply a crock, because the reverse does not hold true for other classes.

[Ordate]

<DIV>Answer this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many groups fighting heroic mobs go without a healer?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many groups fighting heroic mobs go without a dps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pretty sure the number is highly scewed towards more groups going without a dps class then groups going without a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I agree that there are some imbalances out there promoting mud inflation is not the way to do it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ordate on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 AM</span>

[Banditman]

Thank you for making my point sir.3 out of 24, or perhaps 2 out of 24.  These are your numbers.So, given that there are *ahem* 24 different classes it seems that in fact, we are balanced.  If one of every class were to attend you'd have 2 Shaman (1 Mystic, 1 Defiler).  As it is, we appear to be desireable enough that you can in fact justify more than one Mystic!Try to say that about a Shadow Knight, a Paladin, a Guardian, an Inquisitor, a Bruiser, a Monk . . . there are tons of classes for whom it is difficult to justify more than one participant in a raid.Mystics are balanced enough that people want them . . . in groups, on raids, etc . . . in more numbers than their sheer statistical value would otherwise indicate.If you want to see true imbalance, hearken thine self no further than EQLive.  In that setting, ONE Shaman in a raid of 72 is PLENTY.  In fact, many guilds simply box their Shaman because all they really need is MGB Focus then Malo + Turgurs right at the beginning of every fight.I do hate to see Furies get thrown out there so often for the damage they do.  If I were a Fury, I'd be ducking every time for fear of the nerf bat, because believe me, they have it coming.  It won't be pretty.<div></div>

[Terq]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Instead, why don't you come up with a real example of how it would make us overpowered.<BR>What amazing feats could you pull off with a moderate dps increase?<BR><BR>I've just demonstrated that Defilers have more dps (situationally more than 200 extra)and are not the uberclass of eq2. Theres your sample class.<BR><BR>Ask your defilers what their extra dps really does for them and they will tell you exactly what i said. It makes things a little less tedious but not much else.<BR><BR>Our furys can do 1k dps and don't have trouble getting raidspots because of their decent group heals, don't have much trouble getting groups either. Their main restriction is power, while ours is cast times. Which do you think are easier to acquire, power regen items or cast time reduction items?<BR><BR>We are already limited enough to the point where it becomes stifling.<BR><BR>Mystics are sooo desired on raids that we sometimes use 2, and never have more than 3 shaman types total (ie 1 defiler). 3/24. WOW, thats what I call shaman raid domination.<BR><BR>Fact is, we normally take pretty much one of each class if available and the classes that we double up on most are dps types if others are unavailable. That includes wizards and conjurors.<BR><BR>Why is that? because unlike our spells, 2 of the same nuke do not negate each other. If everyone in the group is maxed on stats,the dps types do not lose a good chunk of their abilities. Dps is dps...<BR>If we had more wizards and conjurors we could conceivably take 3 of each and they would barely step on each others toes in terms of redundancy.It might not be ideal, but it would work.<BR>Imagine the stupidity of taking 5 or 6 shamans.<BR><BR>So the classes that dominate soloing are Definitely NOT conversely less used on raids, at least in my neck of the woods. Your raid setup may be vastly different, I don't know.<BR><BR>This whole mystic desirability tradeoff: crawling soloability for other mythical benefits is simply a crock, because the reverse does not hold true for other classes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The classes that you are choosing for your exemplars of great DPS or soloability are the classes that I see on the next nerf chopping block.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1000 dps is good dps for a lot of strictly damage types out there.  1000 dps for a healer is just silly.  There is a reason why a fury is the most polular healer right now, and you pinpointed it.  A healer that can do that has got to expect the nerf bat to come down hard.  It will happen, just a question of when. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoner's soloabitliy is due to their tank pet, and not their other pets that they use in raid.  I don't have a problem with the dps type pets, but when the tank pet allows them to take out yellow named heroics, you have to see the nerf bat coming.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since I am on a roll here, root spells are also due for a nerfing which will effect the soloability of most mages, inlcuding wizards. </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Banditman]

Summoners:  Already nerfed.Sorcerers:  Root nerf in LU24.Furies:  Coming soon to a server near you.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<P>Ya'll have got to stop making up stuff about Furies in you little debate. Your Furies do 1k dps? Yeah, right... and I'm the queen of France. Maybe if you were a little more specific... your Furies do 1k dps against a group encounter that lasts 15 seconds? Oooh, wow I'm impressed; Defilers can do the same. Furies are currently being outdamaged by priests with half a brain that choose damage achievements; Furies also have sh-t buffs and debuffs... So you are only winning an argument against other people who are as clueless as you.</P> <P>I have maxed INT, spell proccing gear, +60 or so disruption (never resisted), all master damage spells (except Starnova, which is master 2), about 45% spell crits (depending on if a bard is in the group), and plenty of competence. 1000+ dps is an extreme rarity for me which only happens in Lyceum, and when it does happen, you bet I'm showin off to all my friends. Even with synergism, and the bard group spell proc 1k is a ridiculous rarity... an outliar. You can't just see someone do x dps and then say "this class is doing x dps" because then you are being an idiot.</P> <P>And [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], your insulting someone for stating his opinion that Mystic dps is fine; telling him to stop stating his opinion as fact, and then you go on to.. state your opinion as fact. Way to achieve credibility there.</P> <P>Another thing I'd like to add to the original topic. STR is pretty useful for a Mystic who gets 100% crits (a skill that is insanely overpowered, but whatever). It amounts to a very large increase in the damage of your weapon; especially with a 2 hander. If you don't go down that AA path, then join the crowd of priests with crappy self buffs; the Fury one is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] also.</P> <P>Yeah so... stop saying moronic things like "Furies are next on the chopping block"... I'd bet money that the exact opposite is true, though it might not be for a few more updates.</P><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

[Ordate]

<P>>>you can't just see someone do x dps and then say "this class is doing x dps"<<</P> <P>This statement amuses me.</P> <P> </P>

[icetower]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Ya'll have got to stop making up stuff about Furies in you little debate. Your Furies do 1k dps? Yeah, right... and I'm the queen of France. Maybe if you were a little more specific... your Furies do 1k dps against a group encounter that lasts 15 seconds? Oooh, wow I'm impressed; Defilers can do the same. Furies are currently being outdamaged by priests with half a brain that choose damage achievements; Furies also have sh-t buffs and debuffs... So you are only winning an argument against other people who are as clueless as you.</p><hr></blockquote>You can however witness furies do 1k dps and then legitimately say "our furies can do 1k dps" which is exactly what I did.If you had actually been reading the discussion instead of trolling you might have cottoned on to the notion that it is largely theoretical. What would happen if....Furies don't always do 1k dps, wizzies don't always do 2k dps, but Mystics also do not always do 400 dps, which is the base from which these people are saying we are already balanced in dps terms. Do I really think Mystics are likely to get a 200 dps increase? No way. But I'm saying even if we did get something, you only have to look at defilers to see that the game would not be broken.<blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div><div></div>And [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], your insulting someone for stating his opinion that Mystic dps is fine; telling him to stop stating his opinion as fact, and then you go on to.. state your opinion as fact. Way to achieve credibility there.<hr></blockquote>I do not state my opinion as fact. I state fact as fact. A fury can do 1k dps - fact. In my guild our best solo classes are also more likely to be overrepresented in raids than our worst solo classes - fact. I also said this may be different in other guilds.I qualify my assertion that an increase in dps will not break mystics by telling people to go ask if defilers are considered overpowered.<blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div><div></div>Another thing I'd like to add to the original topic. STR is pretty useful for a Mystic who gets 100% crits (a skill that is insanely overpowered, but whatever). It amounts to a very large increase in the damage of your weapon; especially with a 2 hander. If you don't go down that AA path, then join the crowd of priests with crappy self buffs; the Fury one is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] also.<hr></blockquote>Maths lesson time.Blackscale maul with me unbuffed at 187 str does regular hit of 670 solo against blue mobs with 100% crit AA. Thats once per 8 seconds base . I will call it 110 dps because fbss and 8 points AA dog haste will get the delay to 6 seconds. (personally I have 4 points in AA haste)Selfbuffed str at 436  the standard hit is 800, which equates to 133 dps also at 6 second delay.Hits vary a little but when I say standard hit, this is the overwhelmingly recurring number.So your so called very large increase in the damage of the weapon is <b>a whopping 25 dps for an additional 250 str</b>I am also assuming that I never miss, which is simply not the case. I can't remember a fight where I have never missed, even when I am standing behind a fully debuffed mob.So don't concern yourself with my credibility champ, you have your own to worry about.</div>

[icetower]

<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Thank you for making my point sir.3 out of 24, or perhaps 2 out of 24.  These are your numbers.So, given that there are *ahem* 24 different classes it seems that in fact, we are balanced.  If one of every class were to attend you'd have 2 Shaman (1 Mystic, 1 Defiler).  As it is, we appear to be desireable enough that you can in fact justify more than one Mystic!<div></div><hr></blockquote>The worst solo dps in the game is worth it because your class gets to have 1 spot in a raid.Did you miss the part where I said we will take 1 of each class if they are available?Your point is not looking very pointy to me.</div>

[Banditman]

The pointy end you seem to be missing is one that Mystics have known since release:  we are not a solo friendly class.It has absolutely no effect on our desireability.If you feel the need to solo something, if you feel the need to deal damage, you should not be a Mystic.  It's really that simple.There is no way to improve the solo value of a Mystic without creating a cascade that falls into group and raid situations.  If you improve Mystic DPS in solo situations, those changes will be completely overpowering in a raid.If you'll remember, there was a time when they "tried" to do just that.  Originally, the Ursine X line cost 3 concentration and had a lot more "ooomph" to it.  Everyone HATED it.Mystics solo slowly and with difficulty.  This is not exactly a new development.<div></div>

[Terq]

<DIV>The reason that solo friendly classes are over represented in raids is exactly that reason - they are solo friendly, and relatively easier to level up.  Therefore, there tend to be a lot of high level toons with those classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the reverse side of that coin, the classes that raid guilds are always recruiting are NOT those typically solo friendly ones.  Shammies, Rogues, and Bards are typically headline the most wanted/needed list, and it isn't b/c of their personal DPS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know not everyone raids so this is little consolation.  However any change, including our DPS, can't be looked at in a vaccuum.  </DIV>

[icetower]

Please find something better than the "you knew everything about your class at release" garbage.Tons of changes have been made since release.After release we had a very powerful haze spell, avatar had an extra dps component, and all our melee classes had stats under the cap too.Druids didn't have maxed ft and related power regen items so they had to lose the dps if they wanted to heal.It's a lame arguement.Why don't you come up with a real answer to the blaringly obvious comparison I've been making with Defilers instead of falling back on that old chestnut.Defilers already have the xtra dps that I would like to see for mystics and they are not breaking the game in raids or in groups as you so spuriously claim. How do you explain this amazing contradiction??I don't feel the "need" to solo as a Mystic. The "need" is created in the game via the plethora of poorly thought out cookie cutter quests. When they change the "kill 10 mobs, rinse repeat" quest lines to "Heal 10 mobs, rinse repeat" I will gladly accept my current limitations.

[Banditman]

It's blatantly obvious why we do less damage than Defilers, we buff better.Now, your definition of better may not be the same as my definition of better may not be the same as SOE's definition of better . . . in fact likely all are different.If stat buffs worked properly it certainly wouldn't even be a question.  Since stat buffs do not work properly, most Mystics focus on that problem as opposed to something that really isn't relevant to the place Mystics hold in Norrath.Here's the pointy point once again:If Mystics were to get a boost in DPS that had a significant impact on their soloability, it would grossly overpower them in group and raid situations.  Take my word for it, Defilers do not solo significantly faster / better than Mystics.  Perhaps they do solo a little faster, but it would not be "significant" to anyone.I suggest focusing on the real balance issue, which is the overall ineffectiveness of stat buffs.  Even Defilers are coming to realize that it's a huge problem.<div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:It's blatantly obvious why we do less damage than Defilers, we buff better.Now, your definition of better may not be the same as my definition of better may not be the same as SOE's definition of better . . . in fact likely all are different.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Your definition of better may also not be the same as a sane mans definition of better, but please do explain to me how using 2 extra spells to achieve roughly the same result as a defiler is in any way "better"You are completely unable to explain "HOW" an increase in soloability would so grossly overpower Mystics in group and raid situations. What is a melee skill based dps increase actually going to do to a boss mob that has a million + hps, may or may not be able to be engaged in melee range, and may still be missed regularly by our swings because of its level.What about all those group mobs of which we can only melee one at a time?(Oh yeah, and how bout the compensation factor for being comprehensively kicked out of the MT group, a role that I found personally an enjoyable one.)Furthermore the melee dps is based largely on having a high delay 2 hander (ie Blackscale Maul) because the swing refresh takes place while casting other spells. When raiding it's situational whether I could afford to lose my shield and 1 hander to equip this 2hander.And on your other point, if you can't figure out a way that the defile spell could help significantly with solo strats then you have a poor imagination. Many times I have soloed a healer mob down below 50% only to then sit there waiting for it to go oop,because my dps can't quite overpower its heals, or groaned when the mob I need to kill has a few little downarrow friends with him.I don't know, maybe the solution will be if we get more AA points allowed soon and/or an extra couple k hps on poor dogdog so I can afford to get rabies and ritualistic aggression while still keeping the pet alive through the str line.Maybe they will do something about our buffs so some of you have a leg to stand on when claiming they are so good.</div><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">07-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:31 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 AM</span>

[Banditman]

I've explained it a number of times above.  If you increase our DPS signficantly, we would then be in direct competition with mid tier DPS classes like Pallies, Guardians and Bards for raid or group spots.  We are not far enough behind in DPS that we can simply increase our own DPS signficantly and not push up into Tier 2.If a Mystic were doing Guardian level DPS (which is exactly where we'd be with a significant increase in DPS), why would you bother to take a Guard?  You can have healing, debuffing, buffing AND the DPS from a Mystic.Never forget the lessons of EQLive.  In the Kunark era, Shaman were gods.  We did good DPS, healed well, debuffed well, buffed well.  We were good soloing, good in groups, good in raids.  We had no idea how big the nerf bat could get.  We got whacked.  Hard.  Repeatedly.  The class never really recovered.<div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I've explained it a number of times above.  If you increase our DPS signficantly, we would then be in direct competition with mid tier DPS classes like Pallies, Guardians and Bards for raid or group spots.  We are not far enough behind in DPS that we can simply increase our own DPS signficantly and not push up into Tier 2.<div></div><hr></blockquote>And I've just explained that there are many situational caveats to limit a melee dps increase as it pertains to a raiding Mystic.<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:If a Mystic were doing Guardian level DPS (which is exactly where we'd be with a significant increase in DPS), why would you bother to take a Guard?  You can have healing, debuffing, buffing AND the DPS from a Mystic.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Gee, I dunno, its a long shot, but maybe you might just take the guardian to........ tank some mobs.<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Never forget the lessons of EQLive.  In the Kunark era, Shaman were gods.  We did good DPS, healed well, debuffed well, buffed well.  We were good soloing, good in groups, good in raids.  We had no idea how big the nerf bat could get.  We got whacked.  Hard.  Repeatedly.  The class never really recovered.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Guess those defilers better duck for cover then.Actually, In eqlive it was more like one single nerf in the form of slow mitigation, we were never particularly great at healing, which became glaringly obvious once slows were weakened.Raidwise you have already stated quite rightly in an earlier post that one or two out of 48 was ample, so you can't have it both ways.I think you view the good old days of Kunark a little to rosily, because as I recall it, we were a very solid class, but clerics, chanters and warriors were always the gods of eqlive. The number of times I had to bite my toungue when some primadonna freakin cleric was acting up. Everyone had to be nice because if that 6th cleric (or however many it was in the complete heal chain) went off in a huff the raid would be called off.Shammies never ever had that kind of vital importance to hold an entire raid to ransom.</div>

[Ordate]

<P>The problem with your situational caveats is that they would require the vanilla'ing of raid targets back to all having huge ae's that kill off everyone that is meleeing.  Raiding is and needs to evolve more into an interactive process with many different challenges.  If you are putting huge ae's on a mob just so people don't melee then your ruining a lot of classes and a lot of diversity.</P> <P>While I agree with Bandit most the time, the suggestion of a guard through me for a loop as well.  I'm guessing he probably meant SK or some other class that generally (not always) doesn't bring a lot to the raid and has medium dps.</P> <P>Hard to say for sure about defilers getting nerfed.  Personally I think it is possible but in truth I have never sat down and looked into all the raw stats beyond heals/buffs/debuffs.</P> <P>Finally, while Shaman were not part of the "trinity" in EQLive they were not far from being part of it prior to the nerfing.  I don't think anyone can argue the fact that slows were highly overpowered (read required pretty much all the time) with a limited selection of classes that had access to them.  Then when the nerfbat flew, shaman took the brunt of the hit.  While chanters were hit as well, they still had strong other skills they brought to the table.</P> <P> </P>

[Eepop]

This game is far from perfect.  And the fact is that there are a number of problems that you are both bringing up that only serve to compound each other. If mystics got more DPS, perhaps they would be more desirable on raids than fighters.  This has less to do with us having more DPS and much more to do with the fact that fighters have very little usefulness at performing thier main goal when they are not the main tank in a raid.  Whereas fighters purpose is somewhat wasted in a raid situation, so is a priests in a solo situation.  Both issues should be addressed in some form or another.  If fighters got some form of mitigating damage on raid members, such as a useful intercept ability they would get alot more raid desireability. If priests got a self buff that gave like -100 ministration but increase to damage output, they would get a lot more solo desireability. To further complicate the situation, our AAs are practically built on an all or nothing system.  Dog is practically useless until you get 25 AAs, after that he's almost too good. We can get 100% melee crit and a Blackscale maul for DPS....but by the time you get the 16 AAs and a blackscale maul, you wont be soloing much anymore. I would say that the solo DPS situation is not as dire as some would make it out to be, but it is still an issue.  If nothing else, we need a smoother curve of mystic DPS.  Maybe high end of mystic DPS is fine, but the low end is not. <div></div>

[Banditman]

The obvious answer being the return of the 3CP buff we formerly had and hated.<div></div>

[Loral]

<P>I sometime wonder if it was such a bad idea Banditman. I mean, thoses buffs were originally designed to be a solo boost buff, while beiing a detriment to grouping due to the concentration cost. It forced a choice.</P> <P>The return of thoses type of spells, mainly for the low DPS/limited CrowdControl classes could solve alot of issues they have with theses classes unable to complete solo quests/instances/content.</P> <P>I would be all in favor of a 3 or 4 concentration buff that added a +DEF, +Focus and a medium damage shield for Priest. In groups, it would be next to worthless, since the other concentration buffs available would be more worthwhile. Minimal game balance disruption in my eyes.</P>

[Banditman]

Oh, they look great on the surface.  Unfortunately, what happens is we, as players, see the advantages of this buff and then we begin to whine about how it costs 3 CP and why can't it cost just 1.  That's exactly what happened with Ursine "back in the day".A 3 CP buff would be great, or a buff that automatically dropped when a group is formed.I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble of mounting a crusade for such a change when so many other things are more crippling and widespread.  The stat buffs problem for instance.I mean let's face it, some of the most staunch opponents of the "Fix stat buffs" case have recently realized that in fact, stat buffs are broken.  If something so obviously broken can't even get a single dev reply, I just don't think something this small is worth any amount of effort.Mystical Musings?  Not one single reply.  Not.  One.I'm very disappointed.<div></div>

[Purcupile]

<DIV>Mystical Musings.....where?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purcupile</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>-intermission-</P> <P>I agree with gooz, as for just saying furies can do 1k dps Ive seen a defiler do 1.6 k dps.</P> <P>Guardians can do around 700-800 dps seen zerkers do over 1k consistantly I heard claims of templars doing about 600-700 dps solo seen parses where in the same situation they beat the furies dps going all out.</P> <P>Also if there would ever be a nerf to a furie's dps then there should be a huge bump in our grp buffing/debuffing capability.</P> <P>Furies should do more dmg <STRONG>always</STRONG> than any other healer imo save wardens which should and can do more dmg against a single target, all things being equal for our lack of debuff/buffing power compared to shamans and weak aa's compared to another priest class.</P> <P>All my opinion ofc.</P> <P>-end-</P>

[icetower]

<div></div>Doesnt mean a whole lot because its purely raid contextual, but I still challenge any of you 400+ dps Mystic doomsayers to beat this templar parse under any normally functional context. (Pulled from a random guild raid of HoS, group not stacked for the purpose of the excersise, Blade chime not his own spell of course) and yes I chose the biggest ones I could find.Against random statue:Blade Chime (disease)22:01:5022:01:5400:00:04519129.83 (1)0100.0131230173.04Thermal Shock (magic)22:01:5722:01:5700:00:01568568.01 (1)0100.0568568568.00Thermal Shock (heat)22:01:5722:01:5700:00:01624624.01 (1)0100.0624624624.00Judging Smite (divine)22:01:3022:01:5400:00:243215134.05 (0)0100.0598702643.07Warring Axiom (divine)22:01:2222:01:5600:00:343929115.610 (0)0100.0313598392.94Holy Strike (divine)22:01:2822:01:5900:00:315372173.34 (1)0100.0111716001343.010unswerving hammer (crushing)22:01:2722:01:4400:00:17  <b>7049</b> <font color="#ffcc00">414.6</font> 9 (0)0100.0 521 1013 783.22crushing22:01:1922:02:0000:00:41 <b>15142</b>  <font color="#ffcc33"><b>369.3</b></font> 11 (6)191.7 401 2021 1376.55Total 22:01:14 22:02:01 00:00:47 <b>36418</b><font color="#ffcc00"><i><b> 774.9</b></i></font> 441097.8Against the ffa melee mob Pain:Blade Chime (disease)22:55:5722:57:0900:01:125888.24 (1)0100.0126177147.064Thermal Shock (magic)22:56:0622:56:0600:00:01636636.01 (1)0100.0636636636.00unswerving hammer's Blade Chime (disease)22:56:0022:56:0500:00:05706141.25 (0)0100.0114167141.22Thermal Shock (heat)22:56:0622:56:0600:00:01765765.01 (1)0100.0765765765.00Blaze of Faith (divine)22:56:3722:57:2300:00:46189841.32 (1)0100.08251073949.046Judging Smite (divine)22:56:0222:57:3300:01:31779285.611 (2)0100.0604909708.49Holy Strike (divine)22:55:5922:57:3500:01:3610305107.38 (1)0100.085316171288.113Warring Axiom (divine)22:56:1522:57:3700:01:2210766131.321 (10)0100.0363945512.74unswerving hammer (crushing)22:56:00 22:56:39 00:00:39 <b>17102</b> <font color="#ffcc00">438.5</font> 20 (4)0100.0 339 1571 855.12crushing 22:55:52 22:57:38 00:01:46  <b>34142</b>  <font color="#ffcc00">322.1</font>  19 (14)482.6 258 2600 1796.95Total 22:55:46 22:57:43 00:01:57 <b>84700</b><font color="#ffcc66"><b><i> 723.9</i></b></font> 924095.8 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nerf clerics!!!!!!! They have taken over the game and outweigh all other classes!!!!!This is not just an anomaly though. He now out dps'es me handsomely on all raids because his dps AA's actually complement each other, unlike our patchwork load of AA sh1te.Mystics will be overpowred with a dps increase?Kiss my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">08-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">08-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:58 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">08-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:06 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 AM</span>

[Banditman]

I can't even read that, let alone interpret it.<div></div>

[Eepop]

It could stand to be formatted better, but the gist is...here is parse data of a templar doing 700+ DPS.  Providing a link to the actual logs would probably be better for comprehensiveness's sake. <div></div>

[Leji]

<DIV> <DIV>Well, it's a pretty well know fact that druids can deal more damage than cerics and that clerics can deal more than us.</DIV> <DIV>I for one do not need extensive parse analysis on this thread to aknowledge that, it's easy enough to notice in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I completely fail to see how this is an argument in favor of improving our dps though.</DIV> <DIV>The next guy does more dps than us! Yes, so?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I think of the 3 priests classes in general, there are the things that come to my mind (and i believe so does it to most players):</DIV> <DIV>Druids : Healer with solid damage output.</DIV> <DIV>Clerics : Healers with an outstanding ability to mitigate damage through the use of reactives (and some notice also their quite decent damage output when AA'ed for dps).</DIV> <DIV>Shamen : Healers with great debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all well and dandy to claim that improving our dps wouldnt break the game, it most likely would not, but this argument fail to tell why we should actually get said improved dps. Because that would be cool? Well, sign me up for teleportation, group invisibility and a 2k blue AE while you're at drawing a wish list.</DIV></DIV>

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Lejina wrote:<div><div>Well, it's a pretty well know fact that druids can deal more damage than cerics and that clerics can deal more than us.</div><div>I for one do not need extensive parse analysis on this thread to aknowledge that, it's easy enough to notice in game.</div><div> </div><div>I completely fail to see how this is an argument in favor of improving our dps though.</div><div>The next guy does more dps than us! Yes, so?</div><div> </div><div>When I think of the 3 priests classes in general, there are the things that come to my mind (and i believe so does it to most players):</div><div>Druids : Healer with solid damage output.</div><div>Clerics : Healers with an outstanding ability to mitigate damage through the use of reactives (and some notice also their quite decent damage output when AA'ed for dps).</div><div>Shamen : Healers with great debuffs.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It's all well and dandy to claim that improving our dps wouldnt break the game, it most likely would not, but this argument fail to tell why we should actually get said improved dps. Because that would be cool? Well, sign me up for teleportation, group invisibility and a 2k blue AE while you're at drawing a wish list.</div></div><hr></blockquote>Try actually reading the thread

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I can't even read that, let alone interpret it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The individual components of the parse are really irrelevant other than to show what skills he has.The total dps highlighted is the main point.Don't be so obtuse.

[Banditman]

It's not at all irrelevant.How a person achieves said DPS is very relevant to the discussion.  Cacophany of Blades is a very powerful spell, yielding far more than just the proc.  Riana's Maligning Sustain increases the raw DPS of the group members by 30%.  Add 100% melee crits to those and you've really got something.I can show you a Ranger doing 4k DPS.  Does that mean Rangers are overpowered?  No, because you don't have any sort of framework upon which to base your opinion.  I can show you Furies doing 2k DPS.  Once again, the "how" is just as important as the actual number.<div></div>

[icetower]

So show me a Mystic doing 700+ dps without stacking the group artificially.You said if we could do over 400 dps we would create an imbalance and obsolete certain other classes on raids.Yet here is yet another healer class doing way over 400 dps, and the sky didn't fall in did it?We are the only ones it seems who "need" to be restricted in this department.Do Templars, among all healers have a balance claim to do more dps than us? No way. I'm incredulous at people like Lejina who seem to forget that for every debuff we get, they get a corresponding buff or other useful spell.Yet the cleric AA give them better dps, a very useful permanent reduction in spell cast times, as well as their 30 sec entire group cast time reduction. This complements two weakness ie dps and cast times extremely well imho.Our corresponding spell cast reduction AA is an insult. 1 target only not including self for 33% increase, also for 30 sec. I mean what a load of bollocks.The rest include more lotto or obsolete over time abilities, and a bunch of stuff that relies on our ridiculous weakling of a dog staying alive.

[Banditman]

Still waiting for that relevant data . . . .<div></div>

[icetower]

The relevant data is that a Templar can do 700+ dps and we cannot. The other relevant classes in his group are Dirge and zerker.I've grouped with the same dirge and zerker many many times, I use the same weapon,have 100% crits and I cannot do anything like 700dps.Instead, how bout you show me a parse of yourself doing 700dps grouped with a dirge and zerker if you want to make a point.The cleric skillset clearly allows them to get much more out of the melee buffs than a Mystic. Thats why I'm saying they are well put together skills.Do the math and just admit your arguement about a dps increase for Mystics being overpowered is already proved obsolete by other priest classes.

[Loki9s]

<P>t's been stated many times, mystics have never been considered a solo class. Tough cookies.  Necro/Conj, hell yeah they can solo, they bring thier own tank with them. Did you bring a tank, nope, you brought dogdog. Necro/Conj, hell yeah they can ward the whole group and protect the tank fro.. wait... no.. they can't, they're one trick dps ponies. They're ability to solo is unrivalled as it should be, they're excellent at solo and loved in raids because of the numbers they can put up, but next time your raiding parse some heals and tell me where they're at.  In a round about way what i'm saying here is that the game (minus the cap/buff situation) is decently balanced. Mystics are not are not a dps class, if you started a mystic to smack up some big numbers... oops, wrong class. We're healers, we're buffers, thats what we do. As far as the OP's statement, sure str isn't really important for us, it's actually pretty crappy and doesn't really help us for anything... whoopitty doo, i haven't used SoW in god knows how many levels, but it's a great spell and how many pieces of gear do you wear that there's at least one questionable stat on. </P>

[Munter78]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR>The relevant data is that a Templar can do 700+ dps and we cannot. The other relevant classes in his group are Dirge and zerker.<BR><BR>I've grouped with the same dirge and zerker many many times, I use the same weapon,have 100% crits and I cannot do anything like 700dps.<BR><BR>Instead, how bout you show me a parse of yourself doing 700dps grouped with a dirge and zerker if you want to make a point.<BR><BR>The cleric skillset clearly allows them to get much more out of the melee buffs than a Mystic. Thats why I'm saying they are well put together skills.<BR><BR>Do the math and just admit your arguement about a dps increase for Mystics being overpowered is already proved obsolete by other priest classes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can do 700 dps, just need a dps buffing class in my group.  Kinda depends on what you set your AA's up for too.  Most templars can not do 700dps, most cant do 350dps lol. 

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Loki9s wrote:<div></div><p>t's been stated many times, mystics have never been considered a solo class. Tough cookies. </p><hr></blockquote>Way to miss the point entirely. Clerics and Defilers are not considered to be solo classes either are they, and yet they now all solo better than Mystics.What on earth makes you think I want Mystics to solo as well as a necro? I really do get sick of this poor assumption, brought up time and time again.We are now the bottom of the heap in priest dps, our stat buffs are a waste of space, and our debuffs are only effective up to the mobs finite cap which means on raids you may be slowing an already slowed mob.How would you like it if your half your necro's damage didn't actually hit the mob because it had a hard cap on each damage type that is allowed to be done to it?Your point about comparing heal parses to your necro is just stupid. How bout I say we add up both our hps and dps and see who has the bigger total number? You will blow us away. Doesn't really mean anything though does it?Munter, I hope you can do those numbers because It will give me some hope. Maybe that tribal rage AA will do the trick, but unfortunately I can't afford it personally because I've used half my AA just to keep paper dog alive.I still think the cleric damage AA are better and their fast cast AA leaves ours for dead.

[Banditman]

Until I see a log your data is tainted.  You've provided only a very slim view of one or two encounters where a Templar appears to have done a great deal of damage.  You've provided nothing to support that.You'll have to excuse me if I'm skeptical.  I've seen many people make outrageous claims of someone doing this damage, doing that damage but when asked to provide relevant supporting data have been unable to do so.<div></div>

[Loki9s]

<P>Wellllll first off, I'm a mystic, not a necro. I didn't mean to come across as saying any priest class should be able to solo. None of them do it well and thats the way it should be. We're just not meant to, it's the facts of life. So we're low end on the healer dps, oh well, i doubt anyone out there is going to be upset that thier healers aren't holding up thier dps end of a raid. </P> <P>Oh, and compairing heal parses to necro DPS was meant to be stupid, i'm glad you caught that. It was an illustration, although i fear you may have missed it.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>On a different note, how good did this dps cleric that we're speaking of do as a healer on these parses, or was he strickly casting dps only?</P> <P> </P>

[thedu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Loki9s wrote:<div></div> <p>it's been stated many times, mystics have never been considered a solo class. Tough cookies.  </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">Tell me where is the official post from SoE saying that? Prior to LU13 it easier to solo, not so much after.  The original construction of EQ2 was the ability of ANY class to effectively solo.  The 'effectiveness' was removed after LU13 when STAT's such STR and INT meant more to other classes then to Priests.  Every classes was considered a soloing class with original creation of EQ2.</font> </p> <p>Necro/Conj, hell yeah they can solo, they bring thier own tank with them. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">So one class out dozens is allowed to solo everything? Doesn't that bother you? Isn't that wrong or even discriminatory?</font> </p> <p>Did you bring a tank, nope, you brought dogdog. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">Dogdog was EQ2 creation's after TWO YEARS and not part of the original make up. Conj/Necro are a pet class. Your argument holds no water.</font> </p> <p>Necro/Conj, hell yeah they can ward the whole group and protect the tank fro.. wait... no.. they can't, they're one trick dps ponies. They're ability to solo is unrivalled as it should be, they're excellent at solo and loved in raids because of the numbers they can put up, but next time your raiding parse some heals and tell me where they're at. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">Ah yes, the whole DPS stupidity.  Soloing isn't simply about doing DPS but about accomplishing content. If one classes can an NON-epic content by itself then it's a disparity and that's an issue.</font> </p> <p> In a round about way what i'm saying here is that the game (minus the cap/buff situation) is decently balanced. Mystics are not are not a dps class, if you started a mystic to smack up some big numbers... oops, wrong class. We're healers, we're buffers, thats what we do. As far as the OP's statement, sure str isn't really important for us, it's actually pretty crappy and doesn't really help us for anything... whoopitty doo, i haven't used SoW in god knows how many levels, but it's a great spell and how many pieces of gear do you wear that there's at least one questionable stat on. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">Indoors you should be using sow especially now with body pulls being necessary. Again it's not all about DPS and it shouldn't be all about DPS. Too many people have a myopic viewpoint regarding these games.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[Terq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thedump wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>Ah yes, the whole DPS stupidity.  Soloing isn't simply about doing DPS but about accomplishing content. If one classes can an NON-epic content by itself then it's a disparity and that's an issue.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by thedump on <SPAN class=date_text>08-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wait a second, I thought this thread was about DPS.  Is it DPS, or effective soloing?  I think that a mystic is fairly good at accomplishing blue/gree non-epic content.  It is definitely slow, but the survivability is much higer than my ranger alt.</P> <P>DPS is slow, but the flip side of that is the "accomplishing content" that you are talking about.  I believe that a sizeable/noticable incrase in DPS on our part would allow us to complete quite a bit of heroic content that, quite frankly, nobody should be completing on their own. <BR></P>

[thedu]

<blockquote><hr>Terq wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> thedump wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0033">Ah yes, the whole DPS stupidity.  Soloing isn't simply about doing DPS but about accomplishing content. If one classes can an NON-epic content by itself then it's a disparity and that's an issue.</font></p></blockquote> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">08-23-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:53 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>Wait a second, I thought this thread was about DPS.  Is it DPS, or effective soloing?  I think that a mystic is fairly good at accomplishing blue/gree non-epic content.  It is definitely slow, but the survivability is much higer than my ranger alt.</p> <p>DPS is slow, but the flip side of that is the "accomplishing content" that you are talking about.  I believe that a sizeable/noticable incrase in DPS on our part would allow us to complete quite a bit of heroic content that, quite frankly, nobody should be completing on their own. </p><hr></blockquote> The mindset in EQ2 is that DPS = Soloing? Is this completely true? Accomplishing content by soloing means: Can you complete ALL quests (other than NON-epic) by soloing?  A conjurer in my guild is able to do the Nest Solo which means he can kill the named at the end to finish the Quest and Content for that zone. Can a mystic do this? No. There are NO tools within or without to accomplish this; Even with highest amount of DPS. I am not disregarding DPS as being one of the critical factors in soloing 'effectively', but there has to be more then just DPS. And when I see people posting that  it's simply LACK of DPS that defines soloing because that's the mindset that's been created over the years in EQ2.<div></div>

[Loki9s]

<P>Everyones so snippy here lol</P> <P>My whole point is it's a game. If we all wanted to do the exact same thing there would only be one class, one race, and one tradeskill. Everyone would be equal and we could all do what we wanted to. I reference necro's and conj's ability to solo mainly because they are the most proficient at it. They can't heal. If you go to the conj boards do you see them asking for more abilities to heal the group? I understand that everyone was "supposed" to be able to complete the same content all by themselves, and i do understand that isn't the case, but we're talking about a priest class. There was no moment in the creation of my priest that i believed i was going to solo anything beyond tripple down grey mobs. I created a priest to heal groups, raids whatever needed healin. I understand that everyone wants to be able to accomplish the same things but lets face facts here a DPS increase will make our solo ventures slightly faster... slightly... we still won't be able to complete content that we weren't able to complete earlier unless the dps increase is major, and you know if they ever do anything major to a class then that same class is gonna get a chop elsewhere. So in general what i'm saying is that if it ain't broke, please don't nerf it more. Sure, mystics overall could use the extra dps and it would make life a tad bit easier, but i don't want to give up anything for the large boost in dps it would take.</P>

[thedu]

<blockquote><hr>Loki9s wrote:<div></div> <p>Everyones so snippy here lol </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">"Tough cookies" QFE</font> </p> <p>My whole point is it's a game. If we all wanted to do the exact same thing there would only be one class, one race, and one tradeskill. Everyone would be equal and we could all do what we wanted to. I reference necro's and conj's ability to solo mainly because they are the most proficient at it. They can't heal. If you go to the conj boards do you see them asking for more abilities to heal the group? I understand that everyone was "supposed" to be able to complete the same content all by themselves, and i do understand that isn't the case, but we're talking about a priest class. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">/sigh. I'm not going to try and reiterate anything I said because, either I'm not stating it well, or you don't understand it.</font> </p> <p> There was no moment in the creation of my priest that i believed i was going to solo anything beyond tripple down grey mobs. I created a priest to heal groups, raids whatever needed healin. I understand that everyone wants to be able to accomplish the same things but lets face facts here a DPS increase will make our solo ventures slightly faster... slightly... we still won't be able to complete content that we weren't able to complete earlier unless the dps increase is major, and you know if they ever do anything major to a class then that same class is gonna get a chop elsewhere. So in general what i'm saying is that if it ain't broke, please don't nerf it more. Sure, mystics overall could use the extra dps and it would make life a tad bit easier, but i don't want to give up anything for the large boost in dps it would take. </p> <p><font color="#ff0033">I know I know. Why have a better car when the same one get you to your destination days later instead of hours. I'll leave it alone now.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Leji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thedump wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>I know I know. Why have a better car when the same one get you to your destination days later instead of hours. I'll leave it alone now.</FONT><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, Mystics do level quite darn fast in comparison to most of the other classes. The ease with which we get groups is a good factor to this.</P> <P>I figure it must suck if you create a priest with the idea to solo your way through though. </P> <P> </P> <P>Something worth taking note of BTW,</P> <P>Yes, Mystics could use a dps boost, that would be appreciated by all of us for obvious reasons. However, given how bad the class used to be in the past (and how well it is currently), I'm not surprised that a lot of folks can be frisky to ask for any unnecessary boost to the class. I for one wouldn't want to eventually bring unwanted attention and possibly a nerf to something we as a whole actually care about. A fix to the stats buffs situation would be more in line with the core abilities of the class and thus likely more warranted IMHO, everyone who can rub two brain cells can realise the problem there and there would be only small odds of a backlash coming from a fix to this issue.</P> <P> </P> <P>dps is so trendy though, everyone wants to be the cool kid...</P>

[Vayn]

<P>I think comparing Templar to Mystic dps is...  well, it's not like you're comparing who's "good".  You're just comparing who's "less crappy". </P> <P> </P> <P>Who cares?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[icetower]

<blockquote><hr>Lejina wrote:<div></div><p>dps is so trendy though, everyone wants to be the cool kid...</p><hr></blockquote>Well I guess that makes us the megadorks of eq2 then, because we are dead last.<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div>Until I see a log your data is tainted. You've provided only a very slim view of one or two encounters where a Templar appears to have done a great deal of damage. You've provided nothing to support that.You'll have to excuse me if I'm skeptical. I've seen many people make outrageous claims of someone doing this damage, doing that damage but when asked to provide relevant supporting data have been unable to do so.<hr></blockquote>It was on a raid where several people who run real time parsing all commented on teamspeak about his dps, and all had the same numbers.ANY data posted could be doctored by whoever posts it, so you're just going to have to get your own data if you don't believe me.But how bout you use your brain for a second, because you don't need to rely on anyone else to figure this out:a) There are Templars claiming 500 solo dps.b) A dirge and zerker add melee damage to their group members.c) As you can see from the parse summary, and as we all know from their AA setup, the big numbers of Templar damage now come from melee crushing. The highest melee hit I've ever noticed from myself is about 1800 with 100%crits. Factor in Templar multipliers (eg yaulp)and he got a highest hit of 2600. It makes perfect sense.<p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 AM</span>

[tebion]

<div></div>dont forget in that templar-mystic dps comparison (which is a moot point imo, but that put aside), that you cannot walk around a corner without finding undead mobs where templars get additional damage against.show me one soloable shadowed creature since T5 though ....<div></div><p>Message Edited by tebion on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 AM</span>

[Terq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tebion wrote:<BR> <BR>show me one soloable shadowed creature since T5 though ....<BR> <P>Message Edited by tebion on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There are a few in Nek 3, but then, those aren't really soloable.  </P> <P>I think the thread started with the DPS increase in mind.  That is why it is focused on DPS, and not on content completion.</P> <P>Conjurers and Necros being able to complete Heroic content really isn't really due to their DPS, but rather possessing a skill that completely keeps them isolated from the mob.  Roots/taunting pets.  Combine those two, and I don't see why a summoner couldn't solo any heroic instance out there.</P> <OL> <LI>Send in tank pet.</LI> <LI>Nuke until tank dies.</LI> <LI>Root target.</LI> <LI>Resummon Tank.</LI> <LI>Repeat step 1.  </LI></OL> <P> </P>

[Banditman]

<blockquote><hr>Terq wrote:<div></div>Conjurers and Necros being able to complete Heroic content really isn't really due to their DPS, but rather possessing a skill that completely keeps them isolated from the mob.  Roots/taunting pets.  Combine those two, and I don't see why a summoner couldn't solo any heroic instance out there. <ol> <li>Send in tank pet.</li> <li>Nuke until tank dies.</li> <li>Root target.</li> <li>Resummon Tank.</li> <li>Repeat step 1.  </li></ol> <hr></blockquote>Here's "why":1.  Summoners don't get AE root.  If an encounter had more than 1 mob in it, something will wind up beating on the Mage.  That doesn't usually end well.2.  After the root, you are stuck.  When your pet dies, all the hate the pet had is the given to the Summoner.  Sure, he can call up another tank pet, but guess what?  That tank pet has NO chance of aquiring aggro on the target.  The pet is starting with zero hate, the Summoner has all his hate plus the dead pet's hate.  So he sends the pet in, the pet subsequently breaks the root and the mob runs over and starts beating on the Summoner.Summoners can solo some gray/green instances, but they do it by leveraging their DPS against the mobs, not their ability to tank / root.<div></div>

[Shagg]

A fully mystic debuffed mob will probably do a lot less damage to you than a fully templar debuffed mob. We prevent damage, we do it well. If you want to talk about raids and our benefits stacking that is a different discussion IMO. But DPS... is not our function. When it comes to soloability... mystics do it longer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Maybe that Templar is out dps'ing you because he doesn't have to heal much because you ward like a champ. I've had to logout my swash and bring my mystic for certain raid fights (but I really need to recruit a mystic). The survivability added by having both kinds of shaman on a raid is huge IMO. <div></div>

[tebion]

<div><blockquote><hr>Terq wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> tebion wrote: <div></div>show me one soloable shadowed creature since T5 though .... <div></div> <p>Message Edited by tebion on <span class="date_text">08-24-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:56 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>There are a few in Nek 3, but then, those aren't really soloable.  </p> <p>I think the thread started with the DPS increase in mind.  That is why it is focused on DPS, and not on content completion.</p> <hr></blockquote>my posting was meant in response to the "templars can do 700 dps and we cannot" part of this thread, not the general discussion <span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[Vol]

<P>     As a non-raiding mystic with no raid attained gear, except MOA reward, and still able to take down some single 67^^^ heroics (not many, and haven't tried to take anything tougher) with only 30AA applied, I have to say I am doing better than I ever really expected as a healer toon. Since the purpose for this toon was to heal, heal, and heal some more. LOL, if I ever really need to take on anything tougher all I have to do is LFG and I'll find a group faster than most any other class. Most times groups find me before I am even start looking. I can't be the only one this happens too. </P> <P>     But, if soloing by increasing our DPS is the strongest concern on this thread, then DPS is only a part of the equation for our ability to solo. If you are having trouble, maybe it is time to take a harder look at your tactics and gear for resists, mitigation,  stats, and bonuses like damage procs, health, power, flowing thought, and so forth.  Especially gear for damage procs. Through discussion with a ranger and other DPS classes, a large part of their DPS is enhanced by damage procs from their gear. Yes, AA lines are playing a big factor also. Anyways, I strongly suggest you look at everything else before crying for more DPS. I know my toon has lots of room for improvement in so many different areas before I'll go asking for more DPS which already exists out there.</P> <P>     As for that 700 DPS templar, I have to ask 1) What buffs was he benefiting from at the time? 2) How many times can he repeat those kind of numbers, or was is it more along the lines he got a bunch of lucky maxed out hits on the mob? 3) How much healing did he have to do? As one person mentioned, maybe the other healers were doing such a good job, cause Pain really isn't that tough for a good raid group, he spent all his time just doing damage. So many factors. In the end, solo, he still has to heal after he takes damage and doesn't have the advantage our wards provide. I would rather solo as a mystic than a templar anyday.</P> <P>     The bigger concern on this thread, I believe, was back on what stats we buff, and why give us a "worthless" one like STR when most any class, except mages, can easily max this stat on their own. For, that matter, many are even able to max STA as well when the stat cap renders this buff moot making an HP buff the more desired and sought buff. How is a mystic to compete against that when LFG?  From another thread on Illusionist's INT buff being worthless cause of the higher benefits from other mages' INT buffs. The suggested solution there was to drop the INT buff and cast another Haste or Synergism buff to fill the concentration slot. Is that what we are expect by SOE to do as mystics? Drop a stat buff to replace it with another buff on someone other than the MT? Though I think in many ways removing or raising the stat cap will cause a major growing pain on us all as the game would have to be rebalanced for it. Returning value to these stat buffs is of a greater need than forcing us to give up on them.</P> <P>     Volaz, 70 Mystic</P>

[Eepop]

A simple raising of the stat cap wouldnt actually help much. The single greatest factor to the problem is itemization, its just too easy to get capped from gear alone. Secondly is the fact that we double-buff stamina and strength.  The only real options at this point are 1) Change the cap to be a split-cap like mana regen is now.  Cap of X for gear, and Y for total of gear and spells. 2) Fix Avatar to not buff str/sta.  It won't effect diversity like changing Spirit of Mammoth would, and it would fix our double-buff problem. In a wish and its done kind of world, having itemization instantly fixed would be best, but the man hours to re-do it all in reality is likely just too much for the devs to consider it.  And this far after release of KoS, many people would not be happy about having thier items nerfed. <div></div>

[Geni]

<P><FONT size=2>I see so many posts by high end raiding mystics.  Please don't forget, there are some of us who don't have full sets or relic or doomseer.  Also, there are some of us who don't care about soloing.  Why can't I at 70, with decent (I'd call it decent, doesn't mean much, still can't buy anything better on broker) set of gear (other than relic/doomseer) max my wis?  There is no logic to that!  I'm stuck at 450 or so no matter what I do.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Adding wis to ursine line, or changing str to wis would be a huge help!  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P>

[Eepop]

I do raid, but I wouldnt neccessarily call it high end.  And I am certainly not capped on wisdom.  I would swap the str on the solo buff to wis in a heartbeat. Many of the recent comments however were more of a shift in the conversation from the self buff to mystic str buffing in general, and buffing of str/sta on a main tank in a raid. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I have, minus boots, a full set of Doomseer armor.My jewelry is almost completely Fabled.I have a Godking weapon and two Fabled off hand / ranged items.In short, I have "the (*@#".I am STILL not capped on Wisdom on my own.It's a worthy goal, but VERY difficult for a Mystic since we have no way to buff our own Wisdom.I like the split cap idea.<div></div>

[Vol]

<P>If it is so <A href="mailto:d@mn" target=_blank>d@mn</A> impossible for us to reach our WIS cap, then [Removed for Content] did they increase the power cost for our wards a while back?!?!!?</P> <P> Volaz 70 Mystic</P>

[Terq]

<P>Yeah, best I can do on my own is about 440-450 wisdom.  Not a slouch, but still not capped.  </P> <P>The thing is, I can swap out gear, have less wisdom, and more overall power.  </P>

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>Volaz wrote:<div></div> <p>If it is so <a href="mailto:d@mn" target="_blank">d@mn</a> impossible for us to reach our WIS cap, then [Removed for Content] did they increase the power cost for our wards a while back?!?!!?</p> <p> Volaz 70 Mystic</p><hr></blockquote>Because honestly, it doesn't matter.For instance, <a href="http://mail.thetemplars.net/parse/20060905/2.htm" target=_blank>here is a parse</a> of an eight plus minute fight against Vilucidae.  I was the only Shaman on this raid, so I was Warding, Healing and debuffing.  I was NOT out of power when this fight ended, despite being the top healer.  I believe I was sitting around 30 percent power.Yes, I have a lot of Flowing Thought gear.  Yes, I had a Dirge with Master I Bria's in my group.  Yes, I have a Manastone, a Tribal Spiritists hat, Exceptional Essence of Clarity, Scintilla of Essence and Ruinous Heart.But that's really the point . . . while you may not be able to max your Wisdom and have as much Power as say a Templar, you do have the ability to make that power last a LONG time if you so choose.I'd like to further note that the Templar in my group was completely gassed for power despite having everything I had with the exception of Tribal Spiritists hat.  He was getting 10% infusions from the Illusionist once per minute and he was still gassed.Perhaps there's a little wisdom there for you if you look hard enough.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Leji]

<DIV>I stoped to hurt for mana the day i got my Tribal Spiritists hat. Enough said.</DIV>

[Rythen16]

<P>Add my name to the protest of all of this STR. Anything else would be desirable, but I do like the idea of changing the single buff to give wisdom instead of strength.</P> <P>Zogarr</P><p>Message Edited by Rythen16 on <span class=date_text>09-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[Thunderthyze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Munter78 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, so my mystic now has over 600 STR solo.   Almost all T7 fabled items a mystic can use, also holds alot of STR.   The difference in 100 str and 600 str for melee combat doesnt effect us like fighter and scout classes, it barely changes it.   Whats the point?  A self buff for 156 str is pointless, I mean it used to be somewhat useful when it had the mauling capability.   Inquisitors can proc power off other classes, Furys with the wis/power buff, give us something, maybe not as good as that, but something useful, please. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Munter78 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It means we can haul our gear around in rosewood strongboxes, dangling from our belts, because we are UBER!</P> <P>MU<FONT size=4>WU</FONT><FONT size=5>HA</FONT><FONT size=6>HA</FONT><FONT size=7>HA!!!</FONT></P>

[MalicorDraven]

How about buffing power pool, instead of strength?