Direct AEs and Dogdogs death

[Ordate]

<DIV>I have the str line all the way up to the dogs ae immunity.  I had him out on a short AoA run and saw that he was getting popped off by the aviaks AE.  This is making me question what is the exact deffinition of "except when direct." </DIV> <DIV>The first time dogdog ("Kenny" as I think he dies more then the character he shares a name with) was poofed by the AE I thought, maybe a freak occurance happened and he proced wards, infective and ae immunity right off the bat and somehow got agro.</DIV> <DIV>Second time I waited until I was into my healing cycle after first set of debuffs were on.  Poofed again one shoted by an AE.  Now Im really wondering.</DIV> <DIV>Third fight, I pop out Kenny, buff him up and just leave him there with no orders to protect himself or me.  Mobs come in.  AE shortly goes off.  You killed Kenny!</DIV> <DIV>At this point in time Im wondering, did they break his AE immunity.  We reach the cold dragon, I have him out, he stays up the whole fight without taking one hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now is this a bug that is causing Kenny to die to the lesser minions?  Or do I misunderstand what except when direct means? </DIV> <DIV>I thought direct meant that the creature would have "you" as a target for the AE and then it was counted as direct.  Or does it mean frontal area of the mob when the AE goes off?  This is the only case I can think of as when we were killing the aviaks they were not turned from the raid and often was more of a pile with each facing a different direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know if this is a bug?  Working as intended?  If the later could you divulge the mechanics a bit so that I know how to best control Kenny?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SonnyA]

<P>This is a well known AoA occurance.</P> <P>I guess they're using an AE that's targetted on all that it hits.</P>

[Banditman]

Yep.  Ascent is definitely a difficult place to use dogdog.In the x2 version, the third and fourth floors are where you'll see this problem.  In the x4 version, it only occurs on the trash mobs, Gorenaire and Talendor AE's function "normally".The AE's that kill dogdog are locked to a group, whichever group has aggro at that point.  So, if you are in the MT group, most likely dogdog is gonna die on every single pull.  If you are in a DPS group, dogdog has a much better survival rate unless someone in your group draws aggro.I understand there may also be some of these AE's in Deathtoll, but I cannot personally confirm this yet.  We should be dropping Talendor tomorrow night which will complete Deathtoll access for us, at which point I'll have some personal experience upon which to base a post.<div></div>

[BALTO]

<div></div><div></div>Nothing cracks me up more, than see'n everyone fly back across the rooms, or the raid all wonder'n around in fear, and the proud feeling that pup did its job an kept your group from scrambling to heal itself when the brutal aoe's storm down on the raid, leaven your group ready to help them out!  WELL of course when pup's working as intended <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>its bloody hard to know if these certain aoe's that seem to be a constant boon on our pup's, are working as intended...a few cases where you can count on your pup going to doggy heaven.SITUATIONS:zone wide aoe, seems the pup has a good chance to be counted in its effectmem whipe effects casted on the mob or if the mob is able to clear its hate table thru out the fight, pup has a high chance at claiming agro (specially if your in a group that has group buff's  up that turns pup into a rabid cujo)mobs that ripositif tank or players have residuel wards/effects on themselves from the pup, on pull or if add's come in, can bet the pup will be pop'n like a balloon animal. NOTES:was haven the tank clear the wards, by click cancel'n it on the effect bar, but the mobs still hated the pup if puller was touched before the normal duration of the wards expired. e.g. the shaman's uncanny agro issues we seem to suffer that has cleared up for the most part.  havnt looked back into this for some time, so may be fix'd or still the same way.i have yet to notice this; "if your group is the target of aoe based attack the dog is more likely to die" that bandit talks of yet! (can ya dig up the the parse on that happening? with screen shots showing raid layout?) after playing differnt positions in raids, the mobs seem to do this to pup no matter what or who has agro when the aoe goes off. Nothing catchs my attention, that'd make this a possible theory.SOLUTIONS:if the riposit is frontal, or you notice the aoe that the pup is dien from happens to be directional, line up before you tell the pet to sick'em!don't send the pup into meelee if mobs are able to riposit attacks 360', park the pup at the battle close enough that meelee an dumbfire pets will benefit from the haste/resistance buffs that the pup gives out.  If you do send the pup in to meelee, like when fighting Vilucidae, your parse will prolly ummm.... I dont know show your healers do'n some 120k points of heals....EACH! due to group heals keep'n your pup alive, when the tank would be more benefited by the heals than a slight %debuff to stats / combat art or spell slow'n / dps / wards from dog (what ever you chose for your 2nd AA line after STR),  It'd be almost like keep'n a paper mache warlock as your MT.in those cases where no matter where you hide your puppy, an it seems to die, keep your pup in passive mode at a safe place or not up at all, till things are fix'd an working how the description states about the avoid'n all aoe's less targeted....Joust your pet, sending it in, till debuffs land an retreat.  whenever its not a single hit aoe/riposit that kills your pet. <p>Message Edited by BALTO on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 AM</span>

[Banditman]

There is no need to parse it, you can go experience it yourself.You must be in the MT group for it to be a problem.  It can be a problem in non MT groups if someone there happens to pull aggro.The AE's on AoA x2 and AoA x4 trash mobs are group locked direct AE's.  Dogdog will die.  Period.  If you haven't seen it you haven't been there, it's that simple.  It's fairly common knowledge to all Shaman.Sucks, but true.<div></div>

[Leji]

<DIV>A mob that ripose on 360*?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you playing the same game i play?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that kill my pet are green AE's, straight up ripostes from the front and direct agro. Oh yeah, and damage shields, but i know better than to throw my pet to a mob with a damage shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even freakin barrage doesn't bother an AE immune pet.</DIV>

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>BALTO wrote:<div></div><div></div>mem whipe effects casted on the mob or if the mob is able to clear its hate table thru out the fight, pup has a high chance at claiming agro (specially if your in a group that has group buff's  up that turns pup into a rabid cujo)<font color="#ff0000">Never had a problem with my dog claiming aggro on a mem wipe.</font>mobs that riposit<font color="#ff0000">Is that like a reverse deposit?  Or did you mean riposte?</font>if tank or players have residuel wards/effects on themselves from the pup, on pull or if add's come in, can bet the pup will be pop'n like a balloon animal. NOTES:was haven the tank clear the wards, by click cancel'n it on the effect bar, but the mobs still hated the pup if puller was touched before the normal duration of the wards expired. e.g. the shaman's uncanny agro issues we seem to suffer that has cleared up for the most part.  havnt looked back into this for some time, so may be fix'd or still the same way.i have yet to notice this; "if your group is the target of aoe based attack the dog is more likely to die" that bandit talks of yet! (can ya dig up the the parse on that happening? with screen shots showing raid layout?) after playing differnt positions in raids, the mobs seem to do this to pup no matter what or who has agro when the aoe goes off. Nothing catchs my attention, that'd make this a possible theory.SOLUTIONS:if the riposit is frontal, or you notice the aoe that the pup is dien from happens to be directional, line up before you tell the pet to sick'em!<font color="#ff0000">My dog can stand in Tail Lash cones with no problem.  He could probably stand in the frontal breath cone of a dragon as well, but the riposte would eat him alive.</font>don't send the pup into meelee if mobs are able to riposit attacks 360',  <font color="#ff0000">There is no such thing as a 360 degree riposte.  Brawler type mobs can block / deflect 360 degrees, but this does not inflict damage.  </font>park the pup at the battle close enough that meelee an dumbfire pets will benefit from the haste/resistance buffs that the pup gives out.  If you do send the pup in to meelee, like when fighting Vilucidae, your parse will prolly ummm.... I dont know show your healers do'n some 120k points of heals....EACH! due to group heals keep'n your pup alive, when the tank would be more benefited by the heals than a slight %debuff to stats / combat art or spell slow'n / dps / wards from dog (what ever you chose for your 2nd AA line after STR),  It'd be almost like keep'n a paper mache warlock as your MT.  <font color="#ff0000">Translate please?</font>in those cases where no matter where you hide your puppy, an it seems to die, keep your pup in passive mode at a safe place or not up at all, till things are fix'd an working how the description states about the avoid'n all aoe's less targeted....<font color="#ff0000">In AoA, you can have your dog stand right next to you the whole fight and he will still die, regardless of where you or he stand.  The trash mobs use group locked AE's that are considered direct upon everyone in the group that takes the hit.</font>Joust your pet, sending it in, till debuffs land an retreat.  whenever its not a single hit aoe/riposit that kills your pet.<font color="#ff0000">I can't think of a single place where you would need to joust dogdog.  Not one.  He is either immune to the AE and hangs with your friendly neighborhood Brigand or he is not immune and dies regardless of whether he is in or out.</font> <p>Message Edited by BALTO on <span class="date_text">07-02-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:52 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Pingu_cfc]

<P>WIth regards to AoA. I allways figured my dog died because he was immune to the inital AE hit but not the DOT effect ( as the ICE an FIRE floors AEs have a after effect DOT if i remeber right) . Wouldn't suprise me to have a bug like that really.</P>

[Munter78]

green ae, directional ae = dead dog, blue ae = live dog

[Banditman]

Not true.Vyemm's frontal cone (Energy Vortex) does not hit dogdog.  The standard dragon rear cone (Tail Lash) does not hit dogdog.I have yet to see an AE off a named hit dogdog.  It's just the trash in certain zones does.You'll learn where and when with time and experience.<div></div>

[Vulking]

<P>A side question.  </P> <P>When "dogdog" procs the ward, I do not see a buff icon representing the group ward he supposedly throws up.  Am i missing the meaning of what is going on?  Or is it just a bug, or is there just no icon representation of the proc being applied?  If the latter is true, then how do you know, beyond the blue glow you get when it procs, that you have been warded or how long its going to last?</P>

[Eepop]

It doesnt come up on your maintained window because "you" are not maintaining it, the dog is.  It does however, show up on your buffs window, and looks more or less just like the icon for our single target ward. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Yep, just like a ST Ward except it has a purple background instead.Also, dogdog does not proc a "Group" Ward.  He proc's six ST Wards.  There is a pretty big difference.<div></div>

[Terq]

<DIV>Sorry, I just reread the OPs thread, and had to laugh. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I named my dog the same thing, for the same reason.</DIV>

[Ordate]

<DIV>I work to control him a lot but yes, Kenny does still die a good bit regardless.  Mostly what he dies to now though is adds while currently fighting and he has a ward up.  Occasionally I'm lazy/don't have time to worry about positioning and he eats a riposte.  I did also go so far as having a macro of appropriate text and the /swear emote for when he does die though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dman4]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Yep, just like a ST Ward except it has a purple background instead.<BR><BR>Also, dogdog does not proc a "Group" Ward.  He proc's six ST Wards.  There is a pretty big difference.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>not just 6... one for every member of the group including pets and himself.  He doesn't maintain it, he gets the buff as well.</DIV>

[lyonel]

<DIV>Im in the same boat.sick of seeing dog die to aoe when hes suppose to be immune.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ryin to get some specefics for the devs,but so far my observations include the aoe the boss mob of nest uses kills my dog,and the boss mob of mark of awakening trial 4 also kills dog.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not been to aoa alot yet so dont know about there.Ill try to get a specific ability hitting the dog next time..</DIV>

[Banditman]

Yes, those AE's are considered direct.Here's some that aren't:Gorenaire, Talendor, Vyemm, Harla Dar, Bonesnapper, The Slavering Alzid, Doomwright Vakritz, Pardas Predd, The Triplets of Doom, Uncaged Alzid, Euktrzkai Amdaatk, Uustalastus Xiterrax, Doomsworn Zatrakh, Corsolander, Yitzik the Hurler, Fitzpitzle, Amorphous Drake, Virulent Corpuscle, Healthy Corpuscle, Overlord of Captivity, Enforcer of Captivity, Shadowy Presence, Gnorbl the Playful, Gnillaw the Demented, Essence of Fear, Vilucidae  . . . .Get the idea?There are a LOT more that "work" than don't.<div></div>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>The Slavering Alzid, Doomwright Vakritz, Pardas Predd, Uncaged Alzid, Euktrzkai Amdaatk, Uustalastus Xiterrax, Doomsworn Zatrakh, Corsolander, Yitzik the Hurler, Fitzpitzle, Gnorbl the Playful, Gnillaw the Demented, Vilucidae <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pray tell me that you didn't name all thoses from the top of your head. :smileysurprised: AND get the spelling right?</P> <P>I don't raid nearly enough it seems. :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Banditman]

hah.I did name them off the top of my head, but I admit I had to look up the spelling on the two Gazers from Lab.<div></div>

[Ordate]

<P>There are a lot he did not name also.  I posted this thread shortly after returning from a break.  I don't remember if I had ever done aoa previous to my break with kenny's ae immunity, but it just shocked me in that case.  99.999999% of the time I love his immunity.  It is a wonderful thing to be on a raid and watch 1 groups health suddenly get rocked because an ae went off but my groups sitting pretty because not only is dogdog still alive and kicking, but he shielded the group as well.</P> <P>On a different note, by eyeballing it I'm not entirely sure if dogdog can protect from the ae that crabcakes does.  I need to actually look at logs sometime and see if I can pick up kenny's shielding vs. when the crabs ae goes off.  If that is the case it seems like the ae was built specifically around our dogs protection as it doesnt kill the dog in the process.  Hopefully if this hypothecial case is true it won't be something we see too often.  I would rather the dev's tune down the skill a little if it is frustrating them on content instead of them working around it on all encounters.</P> <P> </P>

[Sillililygirl]

This many people use the STR aa line??!?!?!I have yet to see a spear that makes it worth it.... especially after the morningstar I got on a raid earlier this week.<div></div>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Sillililygirl wrote:<BR>This many people use the STR aa line??!?!?!<BR><BR>I have yet to see a spear that makes it worth it.... especially after the morningstar I got on a raid earlier this week.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>People don't use the STR line for Leg Bite. They use it mainly for Aura of Warding and Spiritual Foresight. If you manage to have a nice spear, then Leg Bite is a bonus compared to the rest.</P> <P>As for a spear: this one drops in Vyemm's Lab. Can you tell that my wife was extasic? Very cool particle effect too.</P><IMG src="http://www.official-core.com/e107_images/newspost_images/serpskewer.jpg"><BR>

[Banditman]

<P>I agree with Loralor.</P> <P>My personal method for choosing which AA's to follow has the following rule:  Never choose or neglect any line of AA's based on the rank 2 ability in that line.  Rank 2 is almost always the only rank which requires "something".  If you completely ignore that rank, you find you will make much better choices.</P> <P> </P>

[Eepop]

Have to agree with the ignore philosophy. I just wish they would have listened to us in beta when we were asking for the stupid weapon requirements to be taken out. <div></div>

[LadySortile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Loralor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for a spear: this one drops in Vyemm's Lab. Can you tell that my wife was extasic? Very cool particle effect too.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ccff>Oh yes I was and I'm still excited. My DPS increase with that and I can use leg bite with a decent weapon now. I'm not soloing often but I appreciate when I duo with Loralor. And the particle effect is sooooooo amazing.</FONT>  </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR>I just wish they would have listened to us in beta when we were asking for the stupid weapon requirements to be taken out.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>After a couple of months, I do have to object. The weapons requirement are part of the flavor. You can either play with it to the fullest, or ignore it. It will not make or break a AA line, as the very best ones are still weapon-free.</P> <UL> <LI>Clerics have 2 AA spells on 1min timer that requires 2 different weapons. Clever ones switch weapons to make use of their 2 new nukes.</LI> <LI>Some of the best AA for Sorcerer needs their offhand to be empty.</LI> <LI>Fighters now have the option to use bucklers, and still be tremendously effective in their tanking abilities, while increasing their DPS.</LI> <LI>Rogues now have the option of going with a 1-hander and still keep their DPS similar to dual-weilding.</LI> <LI>I think Bards have the same kind of option to them.</LI> <LI>etc.</LI></UL> <P>All in all, I like it. It allows you to really built your character, and make it a notch less cookie-cutter than the guy next to you. And it allows for various gear to become as effective as other gear that would be considered "optimal".</P> <P>If you really want Leg Bite, then hunt for a good spear... That particular weapon type is rarer than most, but a couple of them do exists, including Mastercrafted imbued ones while you look for one more powerful.</P>

[Leji]

<DIV>I don't see how that make us any less cookie cutter. Those AA requirement are completely irrelevant to what you use normally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have my Godking mace in hand full time. When i want to use Legbite or Rabies, i swap in a spear or a wand, then switch back to my mace. To get a Serpentine Skewer instead of my old Cobalt Spear barely changed anything to my character, i dont have a spear in hand for more than a split second usually, unless im in the mood to melee, but even in those situation the best spear in the world will still be subpar to a good two hander.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That just make us press a few more buttons, big deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Loralor wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If you really want Leg Bite, then hunt for a good spear...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A Crude Forged Tin Spear can do the job just fine really.<BR></DIV>

[Loral]

<DIV>Fine, have it your way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I don't want to play a game where everything is handed to me the easy way. I don't want to play a game where everyone is similar to the guy next to him in all aspects. I don't want to play a game where choices don't matter in building up your character.</DIV>

[Leji]

<DIV>You missed the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have it my way, as you put it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is simply the way the system currently is. You aren't forced to stick to a type of weapon or another in regard of the AA line you chose, weapon swapping is as easy as clicking a single button and allow you to use whatever AA ability you have while still doing no compromise in regard of the best full time weapon you have in hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be forced to make choices and compromises in regard of the AA lines you have may be an interesting concept, but it doesn't apply to the one we currently deal with.</DIV>

[FlintAH]

vilucidae doesnt ae<div></div>