STA and Mystic buffs - I stand corrected

[Ixnay]

<DIV>The screenshot below is of my alt, a SK Gnome.  In the picture, he is *completely* unbuffed, and is ungrouped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And his unbuffed and ungrouped STA is 460:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/ixnaysta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The gear on the left side is straight T7 raid fabled (I'm fortunate to be in a guild where this is possible).  He uses food that gives 11 sta, but that's no big deal, and one 14 sta hex doll, but only because I like the debuff it gives.  The jewelry and items on the right are all crap items, either player made acrylia or common quested items.  All of the fabled gear on the left side has high STA, but not every item on the right side has STA, since I was trying to max mitigation rather than STA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sad part is, if I was trying to max STA, or was just lazy or didn't care about my gear, I would be over the 510 cap with only Xegonite Vanguard armor and acrylia jewelry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other major fact here is this involves a Gnome, which as you know, has near the lowest innate sta and HP of all races.  So an Ogre wearing the same items would have higher STA than the Gnome pictured above for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm posting this now as a followup to some very loud posts from a while back concerning whether Mystics were getting screwed by buffing STA rather than HP.  In those posts, I argued that Mystics were not getting screwed compared to Defilers, on the basis that even if some of the STA you debuffed was truncated by the stat cap, it wasn't much, and you were able to get the substantial benefit of those buffs on your tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I no longer believe this to be true, and now believe you are getting almost no benefit from your STA buffs on your tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe a man should admit when he is wrong, and that is my only reason for making this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I still don't think it's productive for y'all to argue that the stat cap should be increased solely to accomodate Mystic stat buffs.  I say that because I just don't believe that's a feasible suggestion, or one that will ever be granted.  I think you are far better off arguing for either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(a) a *total* increase to the stat cap - which is presently so low that many players like my SK alt could hit most of the stat caps wearing common items and grouping with players using App 4 spells.  I think the game should offer greater challenge than this, and that hitting a stat cap should be a feat only possible near the end of an expansion by a daily raider wearing a full set of the hardest to obtain items in game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(b) modifications to Defiler and Mystic beneficial and hostile spells that will make more of them usable out of group - this would make both classes more versatile, and would reduce any argument that a Defiler is better suited to the MT group than a Mystic, if the MT could be buffed so his HP was the same no matter which class was in the MT group.  Mystic and Defiler spells don't stack anyway, so the tank couldn't get buffed with twice the HP even if two shaman classes attempted to buff the same tank.  I think this is only fair, and believe raid slots should be granted based on merit and preference, rather than players being pidgeonholed into certain play styles based strictly on the class they initially chose, since those choices were almost always made without advance knowledge of detrimental end game issues affecting that class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid encounters can be tuned and designed for higher stat caps and the effect of players being able to use abilties outside a single group, and I think EQ2 would be a better, more fun and more challenging game if they did these things.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 PM</span>

[novad]

<P>Gotta love a guy who admits when he is wrong<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Uway - Dissolution - Mystic</P>

[Late]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div> </div> <div>I no longer believe this to be true, and now believe you are getting almost no benefit from your STA buffs on your tank.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Noway?! Really!?:o</div>

[GidionSWE]

<DIV>even on a tank where with our buffs he isnt over sta cap we still buff less hp then a defiler and we even have 1 extra hp/sta buff spell over defilers..alltough we do provide more power but thats pretty pointless since the mt is the first to get fed if he is low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one other thing...our zerk MT actually only gets 515 sta with my buffs so actually quite often im in his group for maximum benefit since our guardain is already at sta cap solo so the defiler gets placed with him...alltough every time mt picks up something with alot of sta i punch his face in :p ... anyway there is no encounter in t7 i havent been mt healer for (and we beat everything xcept nb in hos) so im not complaining, i know we can get the job done...</DIV>

[Eepop]

The first step is really fixing Avatar. The reasons to start here:     1) Changing it does not eliminate any diversity between mystics and defilers, as thier analogous spell is a debuff.     2) It buffs stats by the highest value we have, so its the one being "most wasted". Just changing it in a simple way by like str -> melee attack skill bonuses agi -> defense, parry, or riposte skill bonuses sta -> straight hp bonus This could be balanced to have mystics able to put one person equal to or a little above what a defiler could do, but the defiler group buff would still stomp the hell out of the mystic group buff. <div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

    I still want to see stat caps of 10*level+racial base instead of 7*. I think it would solve most of the issues (but then again, it might cause other problems, I'm not a dev). IIRC, it was the original plan and it seems to me that gear is aimed towards it.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Nothing will fix buffing stats once itemization gets out of hand, thats just the way it is.My guild has two MT's.  One of them is a Zerker who is now in the process of finding WISDOM items because he is capped on STR, STA and AGI when raid buffed.  This is just plain WRONG.EQ2 has made the EXACT same mistakes that EQ1 made in regards to stat buffing and itemization.  To wit:  as the game matures, stat buffs become increasingly devalued as items enable players to easily reach statistical maximums.Shaman in EQLive fought this exact same battle.Mostly unsuccessfully.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Nothing will fix buffing stats once itemization gets out of hand, thats just the way it is.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aye, the biggest problem I see with this now is that virtually *every* item dropping in game for any type of tank (warrior, crusader, or brawler) has between 20 and 30 STA on it.  Not just some, but almost every item.  </P> <P>I feel like I'm being spammed by STA lol - the whole situation reminds me of the Monty Python "spam" skit.  Sing it with me, STA STA STA STA . . . .  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Munter78]

<DIV>Ok, so you took stat gear..........Your resists blow beyond belief.  So in a raid, you will die regardless of your stats.  So what is the issue here?  but on some resist gear, then look at your stats.  At that point you will be wishing you had stat buffs from the shammy.</DIV>

[Banditman]

That's his ALT.  Not his main.  He said right up front that it wasn't fully equipped.Reading comprehension 4tw.<div></div>

[icetower]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Munter78 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, so you took stat gear..........Your resists blow beyond belief.  So in a raid, you will die regardless of your stats.  So what is the issue here?  but on some resist gear, then look at your stats.  At that point you will be wishing you had stat buffs from the shammy.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not a case of having to choose either resist gear or stat gear.</P> <P>The decent drops have both.</P> <P>I end up using avatar on the mage with the lowest hps in grp half the time, to help reduce their chance of being one-shotted, since no tanks or scouts need the other stats. This so called melee buff becomes a weak hp buff for squishies.</P> <P>Bolster, apart from the hp buff, also increases attributes. Another partially wasted spell.</P> <P>Big fail for foresight SoE. 2 level increases into the game and you've already lost the plot on Mystic buffs. </P> <P>Heres a clue. When you create a buff/debuff class with no dps, try and make their spells actually do something useful. It's not like we can go "dps mode" when we aren't contributing anything else.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>That's his ALT.  Not his main.  He said right up front that it wasn't fully equipped.<BR><BR>Reading comprehension 4tw.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><BR>Ya, what Banditman said, but also:</P> <P>The stuff on the left is some of the best fabled gear, including a few relic pieces but mostly class specific gear, that drops in Vyemm's labs, HoS, and Lyceum.  Each item on the left side has between 20 to 30 STA, and ALL have good resists, because virtually all T7 fabled armor has decent resists.</P> <P>The reason my resists suck in total on this toon, as I said, is because the entire right side (the jewelry and such) is crap items that have stats only and no resists, such as player made acrylia jewelry, stuff you get from collection quests, etc.  But, after I get raid drops to replace the right side items, guess what?  The stats will be about the same - except the STA will most likely be even higher than now, and 20 to 30 STA on all items - but my resists will also be much improved in total, since all the fabled/legendary jewelry will have resists, where what I have now does not.  </P> <P>So the reason my resists suck is not because I intentionally tried to max STA over resists, but because I'm wearing the best possible items I've been able to obtain in each slot at this time.  And, I could effectively raid on this toon if I wanted in most raid encounters with the gear shown, even in a no healer group, based on: swapping out a few items to increase a particular resist, having group members such as warlocks with good group resist buffs, simply being able to lifetap back most ae damage on my sk, and the fact my toon is 70 and will take survivable damage with crappy resists where a lower level character would not.  I know what I'm talking about, I raid 6 days a week on my main, and could survive raid encounters no problem on my main with half the resists I have now, it just would be harder and more work.</P>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Nothing will fix buffing stats once itemization gets out of hand, thats just the way it is.My guild has two MT's.  One of them is a Zerker who is now in the process of finding WISDOM items because he is capped on STR, STA and AGI when raid buffed.  This is just plain WRONG.EQ2 has made the EXACT same mistakes that EQ1 made in regards to stat buffing and itemization.  To wit:  as the game matures, stat buffs become increasingly devalued as items enable players to easily reach statistical maximums.Shaman in EQLive fought this exact same battle.Mostly unsuccessfully.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I tried to argue this point in a thread devoted to a discussion of stat caps.  My point was that if capping was done at the itemization and design level, you would never run into this problem in the first place and require caps at all.In any case tho, my guild is still "lucky" to be undergeared, and do not typically cap more than one or two stats out.</div>

[Banditman]

My guild MT is now equipping WISDOM hex dolls because all his other stats are well over cap.  :/<div></div>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>My guild MT is now equipping WISDOM hex dolls because all his other stats are well over cap.  :/<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah? Well... My Guild MT is equipping Charisma Hex Dolls because all his other stats are capped without any raid buffs! He is just that uber! :smileywink: :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Sorry BD, could not resist... I am soooo tired... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>/derail off</P><p>Message Edited by Loralor on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

Mine is equipping torches for that "god-like" aura until the GMs bestow it on him permanently, which is surely to happen soon.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I tried to argue this point in a thread devoted to a discussion of stat caps.  My point was that if capping was done at the itemization and design level, you would never run into this problem in the first place and require caps at all.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree with your point.  The problem is that itemization currently is more "cookie cutter" than when EQ2 was first released, when no matter what BP or legs that dropped, they would all have a scaled version of the same stats.</P> <P>Now, any T7 tank loot, whether player crafted or raid dropped, will almost always have 20 to 30 stat points EACH in STR, STA, and AGI.</P> <P>Stats have become so uniform between common items and items dropped from epic x4 mobs they are now almost meaningless.  </P> <P>And this has resulted in most T7 tanks hitting the STA and STR stat caps at least, whether they are uber raiders or casual players.  </P> <P>As the main point of this post, that in turn causes the STR and STA buffs of all classes, especially Mystics, to be relatively useless and of little value to the tanks who are intended as the primary recipients of these buffs.<BR></P>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<BR>And, I could effectively raid on this toon if I wanted <hr></blockquote>The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you could <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>And, I could effectively raid on this toon if I wanted <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you could <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hey man, I beat the crab with Ixnay as offtank, with 7 people total.  That's close enough to a raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  By effectively, I didn't mean I had skeelz on the toon, merely that he could participate reasonably and survive =p<BR>

[Ishbu]

Its a shadowknight, its not welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ixnay]

<DIV>Just a followup on my earlier post.  The character shown in the first post of this thread is now pretty much complete, at least in my opinion, and these are his "final" stats:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/ixnayfinal.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This ungrouped, without any buffs, and just wearing my normal gear without any attempt to max STA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as shown above, my toon's STA is now 488.  If they add the second ear slot as expected, this toon will then be over the stat cap for STA.  I can cap STA already just by adding a hex STA doll and changing one piece of gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, my point in posting this is to reiterate that Mystics and other classes with STA buffs are not getting much or any value from those buffs, since the main purpose for group only STA buffs is to raise a tank's HP, and most tanks in game can now raise STA to the cap on their own without using buffs.  This is true for both uber and non-uber tanks, since virtually every piece of tank gear dropped in game for level 60+ players has at least +20 STA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is not fair to anyone until it at least attempts to be fair to all classes.  Some classes in EQ2 are at a disadvantage and considered less desirable than others, because what they can bring to a group or raid has little or no value compared to the benefits other classes can contribute in the same group or raid slot.  This is the situation with Mystic buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystic sta buffs should either be converted into straight hp buffs like my Defiler's, or the stat cap should be raised by hundreds of points to allow buffs to add value when used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Leji]

<DIV>Now picture us 6 months from now. Faydwer is out and being farmed, we get better gears and the caps stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The use of stat buff are currently debatable. By next year, their use will be flat out laughable.</DIV>

[Banditman]

Which is exactly the same situation that Shaman in EQLive had.Their entire buff arsenal revolved around stats.  As gear improved and caps were implimented the value of those buffs decreased dramatically.  For players leveling up, Shaman were (are?) among the best possible healers around.  They could make up for the mediocre gear you use while leveling by improving your stats magically.  Once you begin collecting "end game" gear, the stat caps kick in and the value of Shaman decreases.It's a real shame that this lesson was missed.  It was a lesson 5 years in the making.Oh, they learned their lesson about Turgurs, but the stat issue seems to have flown into EQ2 under the radar somehow.<div></div>