Stamina Debuffs

[Banditman]

I'm starting to have some doubts.  Anyone actually parsed this in the last week?<div></div>

[trin ka]

<div></div>Whats going with them Banditman? I have read some posts about them not working correctly...is this true? I'm not really sure....been playing my warlock mostly and when I do play my Mystic...basically I throw our 2 STA debuffs...if they arnt working right...the STR/STA debuff and the STA/cold/heat/diesease/poisen debuff still working ?

[Banditman]

I don't know if they are working or not, I'm starting to suspect they are not.I'm usually very fast getting mine out.  As in, I get them both landed before the mob arrives.  However, I was a little slow a couple times this weekend.What caused me to doubt their functionality was that I didn't see the usual manifestation of a late STA debuff.You know how a damaged mob appears to "heal" when a STA debuff arrives late?  It's not happening.  I didn't have enough time to run any tests after I noticed it.There has been some mention of debuffs not working recently, but when asked to provide some sort of evidence no one has produced any.  I was hoping someone else had already run a couple tests and proven that everything was fine and could simply say "You are worried about nothing".That doesn't appear to be the case, and if I can squeeze it in I'll run a couple tonite before raid time.  I've got to finish Tinkerer's Bag first, and that isn't leaving me a lot of time.<div></div>

[Aelojia]

<div></div>What you are seeing is the correct behavior.Post by dev:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10183#M10183" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10183#M10183</a>That being said, to be 100% sure someone would want to parse total hp of a mob with and without a sta debuff applied for the entire fight.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

Yeah since sta debuffs were changed I've been going by that dev response as an acceptible reason why no health change is seen when sta debuffs are applied/cancelled. Wouldn't you rather not see the hp's jocky around as long as the debuff was working correctly? Could have used the "correctly" functioning sta debuffs when our guilds did Pedestal of Sky heh.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Actually I sort of like the "feedback" that the debuff is actually working.<div></div>

[thedu]

I did a quick test a little while ago, and they seemed to be working correctly.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Good enough.<div></div>

[MRRX]

<div></div><p>I soloed some gray heroics the other day to look at the debuff effectiveness.   Using both debuffs I killed them much faster.     Using either debuff, I killed them a bit faster than when not using them.</p><p>It's not a parse, but it's what I've got <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</p><p><a href="http://eqjournal.blogspot.com" target="_blank">Everquest Character Journal</a></p>

[Mystiq]

I just tested with a parser that shows total damage done to a mob, and I can safely say that sta debuffs are working just fine.Level 67 Wasteland Striders in Bonemire have a rough average of 9,600 HP base. Using both of our sta debuffs, their average HP drops down to around 7,600. I'm no math genius, but something tells me a 2k difference means sta debuffs are (finally) working perfectly.While the visual adjustment in HP % that sta debuffs used to provide was a handy indicator that they landed and worked, it also lead to a lot of annoying side effects as well. I'm satisfied with the current state of these spells.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Just to play devils advocate here . . . what happens if you allow the debuff to wear off ?I assume that the mob is (in effect) healed?<div></div>

[Mystiq]

Dunno, couldn't muster enough interest in doing a full battery of tests =P. I hate soloing...it frustrates me more than a hairlip trying to order Worchestershire sauce at a restaurant.<div></div>

[thedu]

<div></div>No it doesn't wear off. At least that's what I was trying to see in my quick test. I always let the debuff finish before killing and mobs still showed they had less hp from the parser.<div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 PM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Guessing at how it is working now, that doesn't surprise me.My "guess" right now is that all HP slide as debuffs are applied and wear off.So, take a 100 HP mob.Debuff him on pull and he's now at 80 HP, so you've done 20% damage.  If you simply kill this mob outright before the debuff wears off, all is well.Lets say however that you only get him to 5 HP.  The debuff wears off.  My guess is that the mob then gets that 20% back - both to Max HP and to current HP.  So, at that point he might get 1 HP back.The problem is that some mobs may have a lot more HP, or not get so close to dead before the debuff wears off.  This is especially true of the Eidolon/Chimerik line with it's short duration.I can prove or disprove this, but I just don't have a lot of time right now.<div></div>

[Clymene]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I originally posted <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10171#M10171" target="_blank">this</a> on the <font color="#fefeff">Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts thread 3/26/06 regarding Sta debuffs.</font></p><p><font color="#fefeff"></font> </p><p> </p><blockquote><hr><p>Clymene wrote:</p><p>I'm generally not much of a poster, but after reading this I felt compelled to share some information garnered yesterday after a bit of experimentation.</p><p>I had noticed while adventuring that the initial cast of my stamina debuff wasn't causing the "healing illusion" it usually did.  It was with a certain amount of trepidation that I waited for it to wear off, dreading the return of the heal bug.  I noticed when it wore off that the mob's hp percentage remained steady.  At this point I became cautiously excited.  I felt this meant that either the sta debuffs were not functioning at all (my pessimistic realistic side) or that Finally the sta debuffs were maintaining the hp Percentage rather than the current hp when the debuff was applied.</p><p>Yesterday a berserker friend of mine agreed to act as guinea pig and we proceeded to duel.  I got his hp down to 80% and inspected his health.  His hp total was about 5,000 and his current hp were about 4,000 (rounded a bit for simplicity's sake).  I then applied my 2 sta debuffs.  He had removed all health regen items and cancelled his health regen buffs, so his hp percentage remained at 80%.  Upon inspecting him his max hp were approximately 4250, and his current hp were approximately 3400.  Thus when the debuff was applied, it maintained the max hp/current hp ratio!</p><p>I subjected my friend to various casting combinations:  refreshing while debuff was still on, allowing it to expire, cancelling and recasting...every possible permutation I could conceive of and the results were consistent.  It would appear, based on this, that the sta debuffs are finally functioning properly.</p><div></div><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>Subsequent replies to the above post indicated others had conducted tests and found similar results.  Should we allow the debuff to expire, the mob's hp will remain the same percentage but his maximum total hp will return to the pre-debuffed number, thus increasing the mob's health.  Reapplication of the debuff will again knock his hp max down, and the percentage will remain consistent.  Maintaining the debuff for the entirety of the fight (or as close as possible) produces the maximum effect, but if that isn't possible, periodic applications of the debuff will still be beneficial (one of the posters in <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10238#M10238" target="_blank">the other thread </a>really broke it down, bless 'em) </p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Clymene on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:11 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Clymene on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:12 AM</span></p>

[erinn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>So, I'm starting to wonder if STA debuffs chould almost be viewed as DPS boosts for our group members!</p><p> </p><p>Example - mob has 1000 hp.  Say my STA debuffs take him down 20% on max hp.</p><p>I debuff him - now he's at 800/800 (current/max hp).</p><p>Group does 200pts of melee damage to him.  Now he's at 600/800hp (75% health shown on health bar).</p><p>Debuff wears off.  Max hp goes back to 1000...percentage health stays the same at 75%, so his current hp go to 750, so he's now 750/1000.  In effect, the group has done 250pts of damage to the mob, rather the the 200pts they  physically did.</p><p><em>If this is how it works</em> (the percentages are kept the same), then it seems that having a STA debuff on for any point in time is advantageous.  It doesn't have to be on the entire fight, or until the very end of the fight, to give a positive effect. Certainly, maintaining it the entire fight will give the most benefit; but if it drops before the end of the fight, all advantages of having cast the debuffs are not erased.</p><p><u>Example - Full Fight:</u></p><p>You debuff the mob on the pull, it goes to 800/800 from 1000/1000.  You maintain the buff the entire fight.  At the end of the fight, the group has done 800pts damage to kill the mob.  80% of the total.  The debuff saved the group from having to do 20% of the mobs total hp to kill it.</p><p> </p><p><u>Example - buff drops and is reapplied</u></p><p>Mob is pulled in and tank pops a few CA's to build up agro.  Tank takes it to 900/1000 points (90%).  You cast the STA debuffs, which for simplicity we're saying take down max hp by 20%.  Mob goes to 800 max hp, and to maintain the 90%, the game adjusts the mobs hp to 720hp/800hp.   Group does 300pts of damage to the mob, now it's at 420/800hp (52.5%) - then your STA debuff wears off.  Max hp goes back to 1000.  To maintain the 52.5%, the game adjusts it's current hp to 525/1000.  <em>(This is the point where some people say, "The debuff wearing off healed the mob!  It went from 420 to 525 hp!" - keep in mind the group has at this point done 400pts of damage.  If the debuff had never been cast, it would be at 600hp anyway...)</em></p><p>Group does 100 more points of damage before you reapply the STA debuff.  Now it's at 425/1000 (42.5%)when the second round of debuffs hit it.  Max hp again go to 800pts, and to maintain the 42.5%, current hp drop to 340/800.  Group again does 300pts of damage (taking it to 40/800 - down to 5% hp!) when this round of debuffs wears off.    As expected, max hp goes back to 1000, current hp goes up to meet the 5% mark and ends up at 50. </p><p>The group does the final 50 points and kills the mob.</p><p>So let's tally it up - in total, to kill this 1000hp mob, the group did 100+300+100+300+50 = 850pts of damage.  Even though the debuff wasn't up nonstop the entire time, it did save the group 15% of the damage that would have been required otherwise.  Of course, if the debuff had been up non-stop the entire fight, it would have saved 20% of the total damage.</p><p>(Again, keep in mind that 20% is just a made-up number that is likely appropriate for some mobs - really depends on their STA of course as to how effective the debuff actually is).</p><p>Message Edited by erinn on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:25 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by erinn on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:29 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Why would you consider it a boost for them?It's an aggro free nuke for you, plain and simple.  Well, almost aggro free.<div></div>

[thedu]

I did another quick test last night.  I wanted some mobs that had HP but would be easy to kill. So I went to the giant's bowl in Thunderring Steppes.  I selected three 26^^^ giants to get a base line HP information.  The first two were about the same ~7K, but the third was like ~13k, which I didn't know till I parsed it;I only did one test right now, and that was pull with the Ancient's line. I didn't auto attack or do any other attack, but waited for the debuff to expire. I then killed the mobs.When I first parsed it I was really confused because I the HP was more then the base, but I found out that it was just that the mobs were healing themselves.  After I subtracted the heals the HP looked about right -- which was about ~6k.Now mind you this was a very quick test, but it does seem that you don't *have* to reapply the debuff again, but I already have in mind a series of tests to do -- of course which will take time as I'm out this week.<div></div>

[Clymene]

<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Why would you consider it a boost for them?It's an aggro free nuke for you, plain and simple.  Well, almost aggro free.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This was the way I had always viewed Sta debuffs; essentially we're stripping the mob of those HP.  I sort of liked the way it fit into the whole Mystic approach, our heals are sort of "backwards", it stands to reason our best "nuke" should be too.  Folks in the other thread seemed to shy away from claiming this as damage that we've done to the mob, though.  Instead preferring to describe it as a DPS increaser for the group or a way of decreasing the DPS required.  It all seemed like semantics to me; isn't a wizard nuking a mob for 5k basically reducing the DPS required by his group to drop that mob?  I couldn't help but wonder if they feared the nerf bat if they were to claim this as actual damage...</div>

[erinn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Why would you consider it a boost for them?It's an aggro free nuke for you, plain and simple.  Well, almost aggro free.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well that was just one way to look at it, since the amount of the "nuke" would be based on how much damage was done to the mob while the debuff was up.   I think of it more like a dot, since the extra damage comes over the duration of the debuff.   Either way, it is in effect extra damage that is only being done BECAUSE of the debuff, so attributing it to the Mystic is certainly appropriate. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[phantomho]

<div></div><p>they should giveus credit for the damage then on parsers we could own <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>figure you land it on harla with around 1.8 million hitpoints wow my dps average would go threw the roof :p</p>

[GidionSWE]

<div>The reason it can be viewed as a dps buff or a miti/resist etc debuff instead of a nuke is that u have to dmg the mob while its up for it to do anything. Just like dispatch if noone does any damage while dispatch is up then what good does it do? nothing, and neither do sta debuffs.  </div><div> </div>

[Banditman]

If no one else does any damage Ice Nova is useless as well.No one works in a vacuum.<div></div>