Zero Mit.

[trin ka]

<div>Forgot what zone it was...and I couldnt find the thread that talked about it (at work with boss hovering)..but some zone this weekend...was casting stuff on our guardian that was bringing his Mit. down to zero..actually a few times he had negitive Mit.  Got it off as fast as I could..but heres my question...with wards working on Mit......if he has zero...does the ward do anything?</div>

[thedu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>trin kahl wrote:<div>Forgot what zone it was...and I couldnt find the thread that talked about it (at work with boss hovering)..but some zone this weekend...was casting stuff on our guardian that was bringing his Mit. down to zero..actually a few times he had negitive Mit.  Got it off as fast as I could..but heres my question...with wards working on Mit......if he has zero...does the ward do anything?</div><hr></blockquote>I would assume so. Anything NOT mitigated or avoided, should be absorbed by the ward.  Now, if we are having situation that the wards aren't working then this could be an issue.Actually need to rephrase the above most any non-special attacks..</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:43 PM</span></p>

[Finora]

<div>My understanding is the ward would still block it's normal amount of damage it says. However due to the fact that the tank has zero or negative mitigation, the ward will function like wards did pre-lu13 (ie non-mitigating) and as such will drop really really fast since those mobs hit so hard even with mitigation.</div><div> </div><div>So if your ward says it absorbs 2000 damage. Your tank has the debuff on and has no mitigation. The mob hits him for 1500 (unmitigated) so your ward will absorb the full hit of 1500 rather than the say... 800 -900 it would have been had the tank had his mitigation.</div>

[trin ka]

<div></div>Thats what I figured..thanks for the quick replys..I only have a few secs to check the board before I catch Aggro from the boss<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Seemed like a wicked bad [Removed for Content] nerf they were throwing on him..wish I could do that on the PVP server.

[Jeah]

<div></div><p>The debuff I believe you are referring to is called Debilitate.  I know some mobs in Vyemms Lab have it and I'm sure other mobs in game use it as well.  Debilitate is actually a Brigand combat art, the mobs in Vyemms Lab that have it obviously have an extreme multiplier on it.  You have to basically spam Cure Trauma/Ancient Balm to get it stripped off asap because it practically turns a plate wearer into a cloth wearer.  It's a good feeling to see <em>"Debilitate has been removed from <yourtank>".  :smileyhappy:</em></p><p>That's just from my experiences.  It's night and day when Debilitate is on.  When the tank goes from full heath to in the orange in a blink, better get that trauma cure off asap.  I'm not sure that the NPC version of Debilitate was intended to be as powerful as it is.  As far as wards go, from what I can tell, the adjusted (gimped) mitigation does come into play vs. wards, because every single time Debilitate is on, the ward gets tossed immediately (one hit), rendering it insignificant.  I'm not used to seeing Ethereal Aegis (Master I) get shredded in 1 hit.</p>

[MilkToa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trin kahl wrote:<div>Forgot what zone it was...and I couldnt find the thread that talked about it (at work with boss hovering)..but some zone this weekend...was casting stuff on our guardian that was bringing his Mit. down to zero..actually a few times he had negitive Mit.  Got it off as fast as I could..but heres my question...with wards working on Mit......if he has zero...does the ward do anything?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Forget healing, you've got to dispel that trauma debuff ASAP or the tank is as good as dead. A ward will still absorb damage but there's no way to keep a tank with 0 mitigation healed for long since the unmitigated damage will be off the charts.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Banditman]

Doomwing Raiders in Halls of Fate also have Debilitate.  It's -4500 mitigation, and it stacks with some other things.Debilitate is simply a wake up call for moving those cures to a more accessible hotbar.<div></div>

[trin ka]

<div>I belive it was HOF where the Mit Nerf was hammering our Guardian. All I know is our tank had his stats bar up and kept yelling over TS " My mit is 35!!! " .  Crazy zone..first time in there and as the only healer it really was a challange..most fun I've had in awile in this game though. Really cool looking zone..seems like they paid extra for that place.</div>

[Banditman]

I don't recommend solo healing HoF.  Perhaps with a Chanter around.  When you get down to the Centurions and Berzerkers you'll know what I mean.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[trin ka]

<div>Really? This is the zone where the HQ hat quest is finished?...besides actually getting the hat with the disguise.</div>

[Eepop]

<div></div>Just wanted to chime in so no one tries to start a crusade over it:While the debuffing of mitigation to such a degree greatly hurts the effectiveness of wards, it also equally reduces the effectiveness of reactives and regens.This is a problem for all priests.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:32 AM</span></p>

[trin ka]

<div>Naw Eepop I thought it was kinda cool that mobs are doing this. Makes those lazy priests that dont remove stuff pay the price. I like smarter mobs that sorta act and cast like human players. I just didnt know if it "really" was bringing his Mit down that low..or if it was a typo from SOE on the effect...or if it messed up our wards absorbing any dmg.</div>

[Eepop]

I wasnt worried about any person in particular, just wanted to make sure the complete facts were present.I didn't want someone to come in, half-read the thread without thinking, and repost something in the spell or gameplay forums about how wards are broken because of this, making us inferior healers, etc etc etc.This effects all healers equally, and all have to deal with it equally.<div></div>

[Banditman]

This is the zone you finish Blood of the Brood in.  It's not HQ, it's Signature.The bloods you need from Halls of Fate are, if I remember correctly, Formless Abominations, Doomwing Skarize Centurions and Sothis.Sothis is L72, and the boss of the zone is L73.I don't want to ruin the surprise for you, but if you have trouble, I'll be happy to share some tips with you.<div></div>

[trin ka]

<div></div><div>Well...we finished it the other night..although it was about 4am Sat night...so I was a little groggy. I havent used my disguise yet to actually get my hat seeing I'm only 66 I dont think I can wear it yet. But we died a few times....I'll tell ya what helped me huge was the Ritual thingy I've been dropping points into...I hit that then Torpor...and our dirge has that AA line with the reduced casting timers. Having our Bear actually healing helped as well<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Gonna try and use the disguise tonight cause I'm close to 67...I have to go back to the nest? solo zone?</div>

[Banditman]

Yea, it's a separate zone when you are on the correct step of the quest.  You'll get a choice when you click on the door.<div></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trin kahl wrote:<div>Naw Eepop I thought it was kinda cool that mobs are doing this. Makes those lazy priests that dont remove stuff pay the price. I like smarter mobs that sorta act and cast like human players. I just didnt know if it "really" was bringing his Mit down that low..or if it was a typo from SOE on the effect...or if it messed up our wards absorbing any dmg.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I likes this aspect too. Makes use have to work.</p><p>The main reason i like healing is that we have to react to a situation more than most classes. Curing this is a real good "twitch" test. =)</p>

[jzakhar]

There is a boss named Istarian the Skarazi or something close to that, you wake him up. He uses debilitate then a CA called vanquishing blow. I have seen a 70 Paladin in some very very nice gear get cracked for well over 25,000 damage. I have been hit for close to 40k (have screenshots, was first time there had no idea what was going on).Solo healing Halls of Fate is very doable, however as others have said its big time twitch play, one mistake, one cure too late and you are going to wipe. This is a very fun zone, but if you're a lazy healer bring some help heh.Jallacea - 70 Defiler - Mistmoore<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:I wasnt worried about any person in particular, just wanted to make sure the complete facts were present.I didn't want someone to come in, half-read the thread without thinking, and repost something in the spell or gameplay forums about how wards are broken because of this, making us inferior healers, etc etc etc.<font color="#ff0000">This effects all healers equally, and all have to deal with it equally.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I do not agree to this. Lets take an example. With me in grp (Warden) I can cast 3 HoTs (grp HoT, single traget HoT and healing tree) which would heal tank within 2/3 seconds for 300, 400 and 200 hp. Now lets take a mystic. You buff hp with 1k more then us and can ward for like 4k? Needless to say, when that hit comes my tank will be almost dead while yours will be standing strong. I know some Wardens say they can soloheal this zone (with lots of AA that is and they need a bit of luck on some nameds), but we are defenitly walking a thinner line with smaller margin for errors.</p><p>It's the nature of HoTs I guess.</p>

[Banditman]

You disagree because you don't understand.It doesn't matter who is healing.  If a tank has Debilitate on him the next decent CA used by a mob is going to kill the tank.  It will do in the neighborhood of 15k damage.  Some have reported up to 25k.No healer can keep up on a tank with Debilitate.Adept 1 of our best ST Ward is 1350 HP.  There isn't time to get a group ward up once Debilitate is on.<div></div>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Formangenavn wrote:<div></div><hr></blockquote>The thing is...any combat art to a debilitated tank is a nuclear bomb. HoTs are like bandaging a corpse after the bomb hits.But a ward is like holding a piece of plywood over the person's head hoping that the nuclear bomb wont kill them.Either way they are dead. </span><div></div>

[trin ka]

<div>If I have group ward...single target ward...and torpor running on the MT...and they nerf the MT with debilitate..it makes my fresh wards turn into mushy old fruit.</div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div>More hp and health buys you time to cure. No matter how you twist this, more hp and health is ALWAYS a good thing.

[Finora]

<div></div>Hehe, I kind of like this debuff as it proves me right about something I've been saying to the other guild healers for a long while. I"d been telling them they should all have their cures up on one of their main hot bars even in normal groups, because you never know when a mob is going to use something you need dispelled ASAP.

[Surly_Smurf]

<div>This hasn't really been a big problem for me since...apparantly I'm one of a minority of healers who still devotes time/attention to cure the debuffs on my MT. It seems to me that a lot of healers don't bother curing the MT in fights (sometimes not even in Raids). Certainly when I was in a position to be back-up healer in pick-up groups the MH rarely bothered to cure anything.</div><div> </div><div>I haven't had to change my play-style at all. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Formangenavn wrote:<div></div>More hp and health buys you time to cure. No matter how you twist this, more hp and health is ALWAYS a good thing.<hr></blockquote>We're not twisting ANYTHING.The point is, even with ALL our Wards up and Bolster on a tank, if he gets Debilitate, he's DEAD on the next CA.  You can twist THAT any way you like and the tank will still be DEAD.Cure the effect, live.  Let it stay, die.Seems simple enough without all the twisting.</span></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>So if we are dead we are equal? Thats very informative and usefull, but hey, I 100% agree. If that was your point I absolutely agree. I on the other hand thought that this was about surviving in HoF vs the rather nasty debuffs you encounter there. I havent done that zone too many times, but I can tell you that only two times have my mt been one shotted in there. That tells me that mt does not usually take a 15-25k special attack when having no mittigation, but he does regularly drop from 100% health to orange. And in these conditions we are not equal. And thats the point isnt it. The next hit incoming does not have to be for 15k, it can be for half that and THEN you see the difference between healers. And btw, whats with the posting add1 numbers of ward? Since only a fool would use add1 wards in there, why do you think those numbers means anything?</p><p>Again, if I was thinking of a different situation the you I appologize.</p>

[Banditman]

I'll try very hard to feel sorry for you poor little druids, really I will.As soon as Wards start to crit that is.If you wanna re-roll a Shaman please feel free.Druid heals cast faster and recharge faster.  That might help some in HoF don't ya think?There is absolutely no difference between a 1400 HP Ward and a 1400 HP Heal to a tank that is sitting in orange health.Due to the way hate works, you really can't pre-Ward your tank.  With a Reactive or Regen, yea, you can drop it on before the pull and be pretty certain that a simple taunt will keep the mobs focused on the tank.  Since only a portion of the heal is used with each hit or tick, the tank has some time to build hate.Not so with Wards.A Ward can discharge it's entire value in one hit.  Non-Shaman consider this a bonus.  It is not.If I were to pre-Ward a tank with a group and ST Ward, I could give him 4k more HP over his max.  Granted, he'd then be forced to kill the mob without a healer, but I could do it.  You see, the mob would come in and fire off a huge CA, as mobs tend to do.  My Wards would happily soak up the WHOLE THING.  And *ALL* of that hate would come to me immediately.Use your imagination here.Shaman must let a mob hit on the tank before they start Warding.  The tank needs some time to build a little aggro.Wards are no better than heals.<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div>I responded to a sentance that said all healers where equal in a specific circumstance. I do not want healers to be equal, I do not think healers are equal and that goes for the circumstance I objected to. Now you can feel sorry for who ever you want, but the way the different healers heal are different. It is a well known fact that reactives are better vs fast hits and regens better vs aoe and wards better vs big hits. Why you can not see that here is beyond me.</div><div> </div><div>Some shammys can pre ward (atleast thats what some say on these forums), you cant, no matter what though the tank has a lot to say in this. Perhaps your tank has the same quality on taunts as your ward?</div><div> </div><div>Oh and to "There is absolutely no difference between a 1400 HP Ward and a 1400 HP Heal to a tank that is sitting in orange health"</div><div> </div><div>What is better: A tank with 6k hp or a tank with 4k hp and 2k in potential heals the next 10 sec? There is only one answer and you know it.</div>

[trin ka]

<div></div>I was never good at word problems in Highschool.....its simple in HOF....get the Debilitate off your MT...or die.

[Banditman]

All Heals and Wards are potential until they land.  Duh.My Ward has no more or less value sitting on my hotbar than any Heal.If you look at the overall picture you'll quickly realize that Shaman have the LOWEST HPS of all healers when all forms of healing are considered.  Yea, even when you consider Wards heals.And yea, it's pretty simple, remove Debilitate or die.  And it's not just HoF either.  Debilitate also comes into play in raiding.  I think HoF is just the wake up call.<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>the mystics are right in this... it doesn't matter which healer you bring into hof; that debuff can and WILL kill your tank no matter how much hp he has. In hof, there is no difference between the ward and the regen if the healer isn't prepared to cure.

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>For the record. I have never said you should not cure. It's a given. For me HoFs chalange is spike damage. Yes, leaving a tank debuffed will get him killed in the end, and fast if a big CA hits, but that does not always happen.</p><p>I have said it before. Some situations is better suited to certain heal types. Wards are better at dealing with spike damage from big hits, thats just the way it is. I am sure you could find a situation once a full moon where this was not the case, but most of the time it is.</p><p>That is why i objcted. Most of the time tank in HoF dies becouse of spike damage.</p><p>"All Heals and Wards are potential until they land.  Duh."</p><p>No they are not! Heals are supposed to heal, that is why their potential is used when they have actually healed. DH from all other healers the wardens have used their potential when they land, most HoTs have used their potential in 10 sec regardless, wards have used their potential in 0-30 sec (if I am not mistaken), I hope you see the difference and understand the consequense.</p><p>I will stop posting in this thread now.</p>

[Banditman]

We'll believe it when we see it.<div></div>