Grouping and the Mystic

[Karlen]

<div></div>I am looking for some advice on how best to operate in a group.  I'm a 56 Mystic and have spent most of my EQ2 life as a soloer or grouped with one or two people at a time so I have managed to avoid picking up good grouping skills.I am interested in people's suggestions on what the mystic brings to the group -- what spells should I be casting and what spells should I not be casting.I was in a group for a good part of the afternoon yesterday in the Sanctum of the Scaleborn (mostly 62-64 heroic).  Most of the time I focused on keeping the main tank (63 shadowknight) warded and my ward (Master II single ward) held up quite well most of the time.  I also cast my Master 1 Howling Haze (which is better than Weeping Haze Adept 1).  Most of my other spells wouldn't land, especially on the 64s.   On the 62s and 63s I also cast Grieving Soul and sometimes Chimerik.  If there were more than one opponent, I would toss in Scream of the Ancients and Dreadful Lethargy.EDIT: Am I right to keep using Level 38 Howling Haze (Master 1) over Level 52 Weeping Haze (Adept 1)?  Am I missing something here?  Should I be picking up other lower level master spells rather than newer adept 1s?I didn't try to enter melee combat.  Should I have done so?   On occasion, I sent my little doggie in, but he would quickly end up dead.  The few times that I have grouped, I've noticed that if I try to cast damage spells that I will eventually run out of power; therefore, when I am the healer, I generally don't make an effort to do damage.  Do people expect the healer to help out or is it ok to stand back?I didn't really make an effort to time my wards.  If it dropped, I put up a new one.  This meant that the tank often pulled while warded and occasionally I would get aggro (which quickly led to my death).  But I didn't get aggro very often and it didn't seem worthwhile cancelling my ward before the pull (which I saw someone mention in another thread -- it never occured to me that you might want to cancel a ward).I would suppose that how I operate would depend on my level vs. the rest of the group.  In this case, I was 5-6 levels below almost everyone else, so my power pool would be significantly less than the others as well as my health.  On the other hand, I suppose that it is hard to grab aggro from someone much higher level so I'm free to cast away.I would appreciate any suggestions that might help me improve my grouping.  Which debuffs do you make a point of casting and which aren't worth the effort?As well, which are the most important spells to look for Adept IIIs or Master 1?  I have Master 1s of Howling Haze and Avatar, as well as Oberon (which I have never actually used -- why would I use that over my regular ward?).  Thanks in advance.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zotar99 on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:17 AM</span></p>

[Late]

<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote>If you are the only healer in your group, your main responsibility is keeping the tank up. Its everyone elses (the dps) responsibility to make sure the aggro stays on the MT by not over aggroing. Life can get rough when you have to play the pingpong aggro game as a solo healer in a group. (usually letting the offenders die once or twice wakes them up though). Heal the MT first, then as you can, spot heal the rest of your group.In usual day to day groups, debuffs don't really matter. People will argue this till you are blue in the face, but on normal yellow con mobs with a decent group, the fights are just too short. Don't even bother with them. Now, keep in mind, you are substantially lower level than the rest of the group in your above post, so dont go by how you con to the mob, go by the level of the main tank and the rest of your group. The mobs should be conning yellow to them. If you really NEED those debuffs, then you should go find some lower level mobs to kill, because you aren't being very efficient.As far as dps goes....you are a healer, not a dps class. Mystic dps is so low, it really won't make a difference on any fights you enter in dungeons, etc. Save your mana for what you are supposed to be doing: Healing. (esp when you are lower level and have a smaller power pool). If you run out of power, you are useless.As far as what spells should you be upgrading, etc? Your wards (single and group) and then your small and large heals. These are your bread and butter...after that you can upgrade your group buffs, single target buffs, debuffs, etc.</span><div></div>

[Banditman]

I agree, in a "good" group, debuffs are useless.  The fights are just way too short.  For example, I usually cast Torpor on incoming.  On a triple up mob, I've seen good groups kill the bloody thing before Torpor even wears off.  12 seconds!I was the biggest champion of debuffing mobs back before LU13.  Fights often lasted 45 seconds and those debuffs most definitely do make a huge difference as the fight length increases.  For better or for worse, those days are gone.  If a fight lasts longer than 30 seconds on a triple up, you need more DPS or better players at the controls of the DPS players you do have.Debuffs are all about fight length.  As useless as they are in a good group, they are just as priceless in a raid.So yea . . . for grouping . . . Wards, Heals . . . more Wards and Heals.  These are where your Adept 3 and Master focus should be.On debuffs, as far as using lower level Masters over higher level Adepts . . . yea, we've been talking about that.Master spells are GOING to land unless there is just some ridiculously pumped resist on a mob.  So, is it more valuable to have a spell land EVERY TIME or have it bounce some.  I would argue that it's more valuable to get that mob debuffed before it takes more than a swing or two at the tank.Take Haze.M1 Howling is probably not going to do quite as much as Ad 3 Weeping or Ad 3 Shrieking . . . but it's going to land.  Period.  The difference is probably negligible.  So, the real question . . . would you rather have a mob bounce a Slow and be smackin your tank full bore or land the debuff and get 90% of the effect that a bounced Slow might give?I want the mob debuffed.  Now.  No, wait.  I want the mob debuffed 3 seconds ago.You have to balance your resistability against overall effect.  Remember, you are not the only one debuffing.  If Mourning Soul Master 1 is within 5% of another higher level version I'd use it if the resist mod (ie Spell quality) of Mourning Soul was higher.<div></div>

[Karlen]

Thanks for these comments, they are the sort of thing I was looking for.>>>For example, I usually cast Torpor on incoming. <<<Why Torpor and not the regular ward (Sacred Aegis?)?I just got Torpor (Adept 1) and Oberon (Master 1) and don't quite understand why you would want to use these instead of the regular ward.   I do tend to use torpor when my regular ward (master II) is blown away -- I throw a torpor and then rethrow my regular ward and the Torpor brings up the recipients health over time.   Usually I try to keep the main tank at full health so the heals from torpor wouldn't do anything.Oberon seems to ward for about the same as Sacred Aegis.  Why use Oberon and get stunned?Maybe I am missing something really obvious.  But missing it, I am.<div></div>

[Moonspinn]

<div>From what I understand, a lower level master spell will be resisted less than a higher level adept 1. The level 24 master 2 slow lands great on level 73+ mobs (I really do need to use that reforming stone, lol).</div><div> </div><div>As Latero said, your primary goal in the group is to keep it alive, which means keeping the tank up at all costs. In some situations single target ward works fine, others you may need to add group ward, and in the hardest situations both wards, torpor, the attendant and direct heals. I usually don't preward the tank unless it's one I trust or if it's necessary and he knows to be careful on pulls. In "hard" content with another healer in the group I'll keep up both wards and slow the mobs if my mana pool is holding up. In easy content I generally let clerics take over the primary healer role, or I take over if grouped with a druid since they have higher dps. I always debuff named mobs between ward casts unless the tank is going down too fast.</div><div> </div><div>I never melee in groups and generally stand back a bit. In alot of situations you don't want to be in melee range because of AoEs. For some named mobs you want to be at maximum healing range to avoid the aoe. If you do melee, stay behind the mob to avoid reposte (this applies to the dog pet too). A good tank will turn the mob on a pull so that it is facing away from the group. I'm working on the Str line of AAs, but haven't gotten to AoE immunity yet. Having the dog up and alive is pretty useful to the group but he does tend to get 1 shoted on mobs with AoEs hehe. Putting him on passive (only attacking when you tell him to) helps keep him alive.</div>

[Moonspinn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zotar99 wrote:Thanks for these comments, they are the sort of thing I was looking for.>>>For example, I usually cast Torpor on incoming. <<<Why Torpor and not the regular ward (Sacred Aegis?)?I just got Torpor (Adept 1) and Oberon (Master 1) and don't quite understand why you would want to use these instead of the regular ward.   I do tend to use torpor when my regular ward (master II) is blown away -- I throw a torpor and then rethrow my regular ward and the Torpor brings up the recipients health over time.   Usually I try to keep the main tank at full health so the heals from torpor wouldn't do anything.Oberon seems to ward for about the same as Sacred Aegis.  Why use Oberon and get stunned?Maybe I am missing something really obvious.  But missing it, I am.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Oberon regenerates that ward by half (I think?) every few seconds. So it wards a ton of damage over the duration that you are stunned.

[Karlen]

>>>In easy content I generally let clerics take over the primary healer role,<<<Does "primary healer role" mean that you don't cast wards?>>>Oberon regenerates that ward by half (I think?) every few seconds. So it wards a ton of damage over the duration that you are stunned.<<<Oh.I think I might need to take a second look at that one.  So Oberon is useful in situations where Sacred Aegis gets blown away early?  And I suppose that in the example of the dungeon I gave where all my offensive spells get resisted, it doesn't really matter if I'm stunned...And I just bought the master 1 because it was cheap without really looking at it.  Silly me.<div></div>

[Moonspinn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Zotar99 wrote:>>>In easy content I generally let clerics take over the primary healer role,<<<Does "primary healer role" mean that you don't cast wards?<hr></blockquote><p>Means I am the back up healer. I keep an eye on health bars, but only step in if the other healer seems to need help (often I'll ward when someone gets to 75% health or if I see an add coming). Having a chat with the other healer in the group and divying up the healing at the begining goes a long way towards making you both feel more useful hehe. Ask them if they want to DPS if you want to concentrate on healing or vice versa. Of course on named mobs and in hard zones both healers are busy.</p><p>Oh yeah... Something you might not have used much is Spirit Guide. Put it in a hotbar position so you'll remember to cast it at the begining of each group lol. So many times I've forgotten to cast it. It's super useful with a monk class in the group.</p><p>Message Edited by Moonspinner on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:30 AM</span></p>

[AziBam]

<div></div><p>I think you also need to make a distinction between Oberon and Torpor.  Others may handle it differently but if I am the only healer in the group I never use Oberon.  Not at all.  My personal thoughts on Oberon are that it is a good situational spell.  If you have a 2nd healer who can pick up the damage slipping past the regen ability of Oberon or damage to other members of group and when you are facing something that hits really hard.  Other than that, Oberon gets little use on my hotbar.  To give it credit..it is a very solid ward in the above situation.  Working through one of the tables instances in PoF with a templar in group.  I dropped Oberon on the MT at the start of the fights with the named mobs and the MTs health never budged.  Full health all the way through.  The temp was able to clear DoTs and heal group AE damage.  It worked very well.    </p><p>Torpor on the other hand I use all the time.  It also regens but without being stunned.  It is a great spell in any situation.  Just remember to toggle it off (if it is still up) right away after the mob dies to avoid a crabby tank (the movement rate slow) and to start it's timer over for recast.  I would strongly encourage you to get Torpor to A3 if possible. (If you are lucky enough to find a master of it then I officially must hate you!)    <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>       </p>

[Eepop]

The two things that make Oberon useful:1) Quite power efficient     When you get down so low, you realize you are going to run out, Oberon can hold onto that power alot longer than doing other things can.2) Extremely Aggro-efficient     The level 50 specials have very very low (if any) aggro.  You can preward a tank in a raid with this and not draw aggro despite the massive ammount of warding being done.That said, its still a situational tool, especially when grouping.  If you are solo healing, you can really only use it when you KNOW that the tank has and is going to keep aggro.  If there is another healer, using it and announcing to the group that you are using it, can give the other healer time to do thier non-healing stuff like refreshing buffs and debuffs, or DPSing for druids.As far as Torpor, I am a purist and stubborn as hell.  I try not to use it until I NEED it when healing the MT, as I dont want to debuff him when not neccessary.  Things I use Torpor for:   If anyone else gets aggro, they get Torpor.  It protects them from further damage, and heals them back up.  It also scales back melee DPS to give the tank time to regain aggro.  It also snares the person if they are one of those idiots that runs around in circles when they get aggro.  With the player snared it is much easier for the tank to snag the mob.  If it hits the fan and I dont have any other heals up, I put Torpor on the MT.  If the fight is stretching on, and I see that my debuffs have all started dropping, I put torpor on to buy me enough time to refresh my debuffs.<div></div>

[AziBam]

<div></div><p>We were obviously typing at the same time Eepop.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding Torpor but I don't believe it is really "debuffing" the tank or anyone else for that matter.  My understanding is that it affects the movement rate of whomever you cast it on...not attack speed or anything else.  So, while they can't get from point A to point B as fast...they still do just as much damage as they ever would.</p>

[Karlen]

>>>It also snares the person if they are one of those idiots that runs around in circles when they get aggro.  With the player snared it is much easier for the tank to snag the mob.<<<Hmm..  a good point that I wouldn't have thought of. >>>So, while they can't get from point A to point B as fast...they still do just as much damage as they ever would.<<<But if you cast it on the puller (often the same person as the tank), he is going to notice it the next time he pulls if it is still on him?<div></div>

[Late]

Oberon is nice, but its very situational. The stun factor is something that can get you into trouble. If you have another healer that can spot heal your group, or if you can click off the Oberon quickly when things get ugly, then you are ok. Like I said though, its situational.In a 'good' group, like bandit mentioned, Torpor works real well. The ad3/master1 of this spell really shines. Once you start using it more, you'll see why we like it so much. A ward + a heal over time is a great combination.Obviously though, you have to be able to adapt to your groups strong (and weak) points on the fly, so what some of us say here doesn't alway apply. Especially in some *shudder* pickup groups where no one has played together before.Basically when I'm healing a group of my guildies its: Torpor or Ward, spot heal if needed and if time permits....move to next mob, rinse/repeat. Most pulls on non named last <20 secs. I rarely debuff and (almost) never dps.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Actually, a TRUE Purist would use nothing but Torpor, since it was one of the absolute hallmark spells of the original Shaman class in EQLive.Anyway, waiting to cast Torpor is wasting a lot of it's potential power.  Casting it first makes it far more effective.<div></div>

[Eepop]

<div></div>By purist I dont mean a shaman purist, I mean a healer purist.  Do no harm unless neccessary, etc.Well, my expirences are colored by the fact that I almost always heal with a Templar (when grouping anyway).This means, among other things, that the only time I really NEED Torpor in healing the MT is when something unexpected happens.It is most effective from a healing stand-point to have Torpor be the "on top" ward, if Torpor is going to be put on at all.  But I rarely know beforehand that I will be needing Torpor.The attack speed slow may be a small impact on DPS, but it is still a negative impact.  As such, I dont want my tank sitting full health with Torpor on.But this is just me, and for my normal group which isnt made with as large of a focus on DPS, so the % change in having my tank slowed is larger than it would be for someone in a more DPS minded group.For reference, my standard group is:Berzerker,Troubador,Illusionist,Conjuror,Templa r,MysticWhen you have the lower DPS scout class, the lower DPS mage class, and the two lower DPS priest classes, reducing the DPS of a higher DPS member seems overly counter-productive.In a group ofGuardian, Assassin, Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, MysticI could see how using Torpor on the MT as often as possible would be next to no negative impact on the group.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:13 PM</span></p>

[Karlen]

>>>The attack speed slow may be a small impact on DPS, but it is still a negative impact.  As such, I dont want my tank sitting full health with Torpor on.<<<Isn't it a movement speed slow, not an attack speed slow?  Does it affect the tank's dps?<div></div>

[Eepop]

Last I looked, it had both a snare and an attack speed slow element on it.  I guess they could have changed it, but I kinda doubt it.<div></div>

[AziBam]

<div>Well...I must admit defeat.  I logged in and examined the spell description for Torpor.  It has a 50% decrease in movement rate and a 25% decrease in attack speed.  I had only seen the movement rate decrease part before.  That said, I will still use it.  The tanks main role isn't dealing damage and that is who I would cast it on 90% of the time.  Very good to be aware of this downside though for the decrease in attack speed.  In the group setup you described...with two healers on a regular basis...I would probably use it less too.  I don't have a regular group for my mystic so most often I am joining the groups out there calling "full group just looking for healer..pst".  I want to use every tool at my disposal as the sole healer and I still think Torpor is a great one.    /yields floor to Eepop for appropriate gloating!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div><div> </div>

[Banditman]

Let me assure you that by NO means is a Conjuror a low DPS class.  If they are, you have yourself a crappy Conjuror there.If that group you picked there can't kill a triple up in under 25 seconds it has nothing to do with the classes of the players . . .<div></div>

[Late]

/agree with Bandit. Our conjurers do sick, sick damage and are always in the top 3 (if not no.1) on our dps parses. It's pretty amazing the dps they crank out.<div></div>

[Eepop]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Let me assure you that by NO means is a Conjuror a low DPS class.  If they are, you have yourself a crappy Conjuror there.If that group you picked there can't kill a triple up in under 25 seconds it has nothing to do with the classes of the players . . .<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure where you thought I said Conjuror was a low DPS class.  I did say that Illussionist was a low DPS mage and Troubador is a low DPS scout.Its not that we can't kill somehting in X seconds.  Just more of a fact that in that group, the healing Torpor provides isn't as neccessary in other groups. As a whole, we do fine DPS, but the zerker is usually #2, so I dont want to limit his DPS unless I have to.  And frankly, most of the time, I dont have to.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:47 PM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Zerker's DPS isn't where it is because of their autoattack.For instance, just pulling a quick encounter from Lab on our resident Zerker:One minute, 3 second fight:Total Damage:  53261 HPAuto Attack Damage:  14870 HP  (28% ish)In this fight, you could possibly have cast Torpor twice, meaning that 24 seconds of that fight he'd be under a 25% penalty to his autoattack DPS.  So, 236 DPS x .75 = 177 DPS for 24 seconds = 4249 Damage + 236 DPS for 39 seconds = 9204 Damage or . . . full fight = 4249+9204 = 13453 Damage.One minute, 3 second fight with Torpor:Total damage:  51844<b>Total DPS reduction from Torpor on a Berzerker:  3%</b>

[Eepop]

<div></div>But why bother when a couple single target wards by me and couple single reactives by the Templar means we can keep that DPS?Rough Ordering of a fight:Reactive & Mouring SoulGlory of Combat & WardMark of Kings & HazeWith those on, healing becomes pretty trivial.I am not saying Torpor isnt a great tool.  I love it, but its not the best tool in all situations.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:38 PM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Why bother at all?  I mean, with a Cleric you really don't need to Ward at all.  Their reactive will probably be enough all by itself.Might as well just throw out a Torpor mid fight and DPS as best you can.*shrug* doesn't matter how you do it, just saying that the "negatives" on Torpor should not be considered an sort of determining factor on whether you use it or not.  The negatives are, realistically, unimportant.<div></div>

[Eepop]

I will have to respectfully disagree.In my situation, throwing a ward with no penalty on the tank makes more sense than throwing Torpor on and taking a penalty( even if it is a minor one).<div></div>

[fxt]

I am very upset that Torpor has no upgrade in T7. I rarely use obberon but we get that upgraded ;( Ward then torpor then Scream of Ancients line and some debuffs if I am not the main healer. Rinse and repeat

[Clymene]

<div></div><div></div><p>I don't really believe there is a set formula for a mystic to use in groups, rather there are several different types of approaches you should have on standby.  For most situations the standard pre-ward (torpor or single target) is sufficient.  There are certain types of mobs, though, where it is really in your best interests to throw a debuff of some sort on them.  I've noticed this more often in the T7 zones.  Last night in the vault, for instance, the sentries hit Very hard.  I found that throwing a dps debuff and/or slow on them would almost freeze the damage getting through to my tank, thus requiring less warding and an overall lower expenditure of power.  And, with the new fix to sta debuffs, I've found that the judicious application of eidolon (single target sta debuff) can lower the fight time significantly.  It's generally not worth casting wail of the ancients, but eidolon applied early means the mob dies faster, my group uses less power, and they're ready for the next mob that much sooner.</p><p>I'm usually the solo healer in my groups and, because of this, I like to find the most power-efficient way to accomplish things in the event the unexpected occurs and the 24-second fight turns into a 3-minute marathon of seemingly endless adds.  I tend to view debuffs as an aspect of our healing; mystics prevent damage from occurring, and these are one way to do this.  This approach probably comes from trying to keep tanks alive back in the days when wards were broken and a solo-healing mystic had to use every possible trick in the bag.</p><p> </p><p>"I didn't try to enter melee combat.  Should I have done so?"</p><p>I think it's a very good habit to Not enter into melee combat with your mystic.  Our auto-attack dps, while recently increased, is really not that significant and having attack on can lead to all sorts of difficulties.  The main one being if you have any sort of crowd-control in your group.  I group with a coercer quite a lot and find myself switching targets to pop a quick heal on him periodically.  It could be disastrous if I had auto-attack on when I switched to him and inadvertently awakened his target.  Coercers, illusionists, troubadors, bruisers and swashbucklers all get some form of mezz (perhaps more, those are the only ones I'm aware of) and, while not the most populous classes by any means, there are enough of them that you'll want to keep this in mind.</p><p>Message Edited by Clymene on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:44 PM</span></p>

[Eepop]

It probably goes without saying, but one of the few times you should be meleeing is if you have a screaming mace.  And even then, its mostly only neccessary if you find the group waiting on you for power.If you are going to melee, be sure to position yourself behind the mob so that you do not get riposte'ed.<div></div>

[Finora]

<div></div><div>Like someone said before, there is no set way to play a mystic. What works great in one situation will not work at all in another. Different tank classes require different heal tactics. If you happen to have another heal class in your group, you will have to play differently than you do as  a solo healer.  Different people play their mystics differently.</div><div> </div><div>I'm nearly always the solo healer. I always hit auto attack. I use wards on the MT, torpor on the silly others that get agro (especially love to put it on other melee classes and cloth casters that try to run away). I frequently pre-ward. If I have my normal tank, I toss debuffs while the mob is incoming and dot them as soon as they are in camp.</div><div>I ALWAYS debuff adds (or pulled extra encounters as the case may be), while the rest of the group concentrates on the original encounter. I liberally use my bear for healing the group. I toss dots/nukes as I feel like it through out the fight. It has to be a really really ugly multi-encounter fight for me to run out of power in my normal group. This works very well for me. Your mileage may vary.</div><div> </div><div>On very rare occassions has mezz been necessary in any group I've been in. It is usually only to allow someone in the group to regen some power. If one is paying attention even with auto attack on it isn't a problem. Good chanters tell the group what's mezzed and you can easily spot the one that isn't moving. I suppose it also helps that I frequently grouped my ranger with my husband, a enchanter in EQ1 where mezzing was used with much much more frequency and devastating  when it was broken.</div><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p>