Mystery Aggro - The Return

[Banditman]

How do we feel about this?  Some folks seem to think the mystery aggro bug is back, others do not.Thoughts?<div></div>

[thedu]

I never thought it went away. <span>:smileytongue:</span>A majority of the time it's on body pulls. Noticed it a lot of it Nest sometimes.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

I do not feel that this issue still exists. I know exactly why I get aggro in every circumstance in which it arises.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<blockquote><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:I do not feel that this issue still exists. I know exactly why I get aggro in every circumstance in which it arises.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Totally agree, there's no "mystery" in why I get agro these days.  I can see the floaty *resist* over a mobs head when the tank taunts and KNOW that buggers coming my way soon as he swipes at the tank and hits nothing but ward.  Or he body pulls a grp and a few come my way as well.  No mystery, just working as it should.</blockquote>

[fitzerelli]

<div></div>i dont think theres a mystery aggro bug, its a common fact "wards=aggro", been that way for long time. i beleive the problem lies more with tank taunt resists than the actual wards themselves

[tebion]

imo the mystery aggro was fixedthe other alternative is that tanks learned to taunt eventually <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[AziBam]

<div></div><p>I don't think the aggro bug is back. It is nothing like we had right after LU13 where all mobs immediately trained our way on every pull whether we had prewarded or not. </p><p>Times when I have gotten aggro in the last week +:</p><p>1) Adds. Nothing has been done to establish aggro to the tank...mob hits my ward...comes and hits me. </p><p>2) Taunt resists or..taunts just plain not being used.  In a pick up group the other day I swear the tank wasn't group taunting.  He would pull, I'd ward, the non targeted mobs would come to hit me.  All of the group was having aggro problems until we switched tanks and miraculously all troubles went away. </p><p>3) The VERY rare occasion when I pre-warded the tank on a pull.  Even this probably wouldn't have been a problem except that it was a named, I pre-warded (tank was much lower lvl than mob) and the tank then body pulled.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I still lived and the group took out the mob...but...wasn't pretty when all of a sudden the only healer in group is in the red.  Gah.  Can you say..interrupted...interrupted..interrupted. </p><p>Overall, in standard groups with a tank that is even average at their role and isn't working against orange mobs that will have high resist rates I almost never pull aggro.  This is true even with at least one ward up basically at all times after the inital hits.  DPS players are much more likely to grab aggro than I am.  This is true when I tank with another toon as well.  Almost never see the healer take hits unless it is an add. </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Mystiq]

How about your thoughts BM? What have you heard or experienced that has lead you to believe this issue is still occuring?<div></div>

[Moonspinn]

<div></div>I have had no problems that I can't atttribute to something I've done. How about... new expansion, tanks getting new taunts, not all tanks getting AD3s or Masters right away?

[Bolr]

I haven't seen it.I have seen that resisted taunts on a pull have increased a bit, though.<div></div>

[Banditman]

<div></div><p>I personally haven't seen anything odd or unexpected.</p><p>A couple folks have contacted me saying that they felt there was a problem again.  So, instead of coloring the thread, I wanted to be as neutral as possible until I started to see some feedback from the people here.</p><p>I am a little concerned about a few mechanics regarding Wards and how they affect aggro.  Nothing game breaking, just some things that could be "smoother" mechanically.</p><p>For instance, let's say you're in a fast pulling exp group.  Quite often, a Ward will still be active at the end of the fight.  If the tank then pulls quickly, the mob will often bounce off the tank and on to the Mystic because the Mystic didn't cancel the Ward quickly enough. </p><p>It's definitely not something that I would want looked at until a LOT of other things are taken care of.</p>

[BALTO]

ah, they did increase agro on our casted wards.  so just make sure tanks taunt'n like they should if ya want to preward.  till just recently, i would see other class' have'n agro on pulls, now its back to shaman's taken the blunt force.but i agree, pleny of other things to deal with before we get knocked down lower on the agro totem pole<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BALTO wrote:ah, they did increase agro on our casted wards.  so just make sure tanks taunt'n like they should if ya want to preward.  till just recently, i would see other class' have'n agro on pulls, now its back to shaman's taken the blunt force.but i agree, pleny of other things to deal with before we get knocked down lower on the agro totem pole<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually in xp groups or pretty much any single group situation I really LIKE it this way.  I'm in decent chain armor and have hefty hp buffs myself so I can take a hit or 2, better than the mage could at least.  I also have ways to save myself should the need arise as it rarely does.  And I only preward with our group ward, so when I do get the odd bit of agro on a pull it's usually back on the tank long before I even get my armor smudged.  Now if they changed our wards to lesser agro and I did this then the much lower mit on a say a mage pulling agro would blow through that group ward in notime and even if he didn't take any actual damage before the tank got the mob back a lot more ward was wasted that would have been a buffer on the tank to let me cast a debuff or in faster groups maybe add some damage.

[Finora]

<div></div><div></div><p>The only 'new' agro problem I've seen was not due to anything with mystics. One of the post 50 berserker taunts was broken in a recent update. Taunts in general also seem to be getting resisted more (my partner has ad3/master of all his and we were fighting green mobs for old quests last night).</p><p>I've seen nothing at all to indicate the bug we had before was back.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class="date_text">03-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:14 PM</span></p>

[Resn]

<div></div><div>Nah, don't think the bug is back. As stated before - when the tank does the body pull, aggro switches over to the Mystic when prewarding. The small regenerating group shield doesn't seem to generate too much hate.</div><div> </div><div>As far as I can tell, a little "use your taunts, lazy tin can" works wonders after two pulls and 2k damage to my toon :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Godflower]

<div></div><p>Adds will fly to me like glue, but It isn't a bug, it is just because I have my ward up.  One click of the aggro reduction/stun button and things are fine again.  I usually make sure I walk right in front of the tank so he knows I have an add. </p><p>I have seen my dog get aggro when he is in non-attack mode, but it didn't last very long.  Perhaps there is a bug there.</p><p> </p>

[Terq]

<div></div><p>Yeah, in a moment of trolling, I saw that the Defilers were b****ing about this.  I posted this comment over there, and offer it again here to anyone who still thinks that this is a bug.  From my experience, it is a mob encounter that is spread out, combined with the ward mechanic.  Once you understand it, it really isn't an issue. </p><p>_______________</p><p>If you are warding pre-pull, or soon after the pull, mobs that are running in from across the room likely aren't in range of that initial taunt.  Thus, the tank may have agro, but anything is going to pull these other mobs off him. </p><p>First mob takes a swing at the tank & hits.  That ward fires off, and now becomes a huge source of agro.  Since the original mob was in range of the taunt, he will stay on the MT.  However, those adds coming in from across the room?  The didn't get that original taunt, so the biggest source of agro generation is your ward.  They all come running right for you, eager to make some shamman crunchies.</p><p>This really isn't a problem for Druids and Clerics, since a HoT or a Reactive will only heal a set amount each tic/hit.  But a ward can fire off for its entire amount in one hit, creating a huge agro spike.</p><p>The only way I found to not become a toothpick was to stop prewarding, and to make sure that every mob for that encounter was on the tank and taunted before casting that ward.  A good tank should be able to take a couple hits before that ward goes up.  And the HoT and reactives will help with that too.</p><p>_____________________________</p>

[thedu]

Although, a majority of the time I have no issues, I'll explain why I think it is/was broken.There are several ways to generate aggro/hate. I'm not an expert on this topic so I might get something wrong, but I think it's close.  Their is a hate list that an encounter has and is constantly changing due to the whatever is going on in the encounter. Some mechanics have more 'weight', i.e. generates more 'hate' then other things.Proximity/Body pull -- getting within the range that mobs "see" you and instantly become on top of their hate list.DPS -- Doing more damage can make a person get quickly on top an encounter's hate list. For example, when mages do immense DD damage.Taunts -- These are spammed to increase the caster hate for an encounter.Wards/HoTs/Reactives -- Healing amount generate's a proporitionate hate amount as well.  Taunt's or one of the other mechanic's above are need to counteract these;The problem that I see is that (or was), that the group member(s) that got Proximity aggro made the mobs head directly to a Shaman.  This to me, is/was a broken mechanic.  This was more so with grouped mobs then individual mobs.Is it fixed? Maybe.Is it working as intended? Some people would believe so -- I don't.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Back before LU13 I had actually done the math to find out how much "threat" (the currency of hate) 1 HP of healing and 1 HP of damage was worth.  Might be an interesting experiment to do again.<div></div>

[Eepop]

You may even want to remove the assumption that all damage is the same:Magic might differ from martial combat.Ranged might differ from melee combat.While those distinctions dont matter to us as mystics as much, getting it all figured out would probably be valuable to lots of folks.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Don't hold your breath.  I'm not THAT big a glutton for punishment.<div></div>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:You may even want to remove the assumption that all damage is the same:Magic might differ from martial combat.Ranged might differ from melee combat.While those distinctions dont matter to us as mystics as much, getting it all figured out would probably be valuable to lots of folks.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Good points. I wonder how Crit's factor into now also...</span><div></div>

[SonnyA]

<div></div>I've been jumped a lot lately, but I relate it to our tanks (zerker) buggy AE taunt. Usually if we get adds, he'll AE taunt and I'll just keep warding him. But since the AE taunt got bugged that has been a problem.

[Arfiniel]

<div></div><div>Here's my recent (yesterday) experience...</div><div> </div><div>Full raid.  I'm not in the MT group.  I have not prewarded anyone at all.  Just standing there minding my own business.  Mob encounter gets proxy pulled, makes a beeline for the "first person in zone" bug person (it was not me, nor anyone in my group), and after that person is dead, it makes a beeline for me.  Why?  I thought it was that Runic Aegis regenning ward.  So I canceled the buff completely.  Rinse, repeat.  I was still second on the hate list, for doing absolutely nothing.  Dunno, maybe it's the dog.  I had his "protect me, protect yourself" turned off but who knows.</div><div> </div><div>Edit:  was running through Sol Eye the other day on my way to naggy, past the gray entrance mobs (ghostly little fellas).  They aggro'd me even though they were grey and non-aggro.  I've seen it happen to a wizard also, so don't think that's a mystic bug.  It may be a pet bug because the wizard had their book pet up, and I had the dog up.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Arfiniel on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Mobs that are gray to you may not be gray to everyone in the group, meaning they will still attack.Would you have grayed the mobs solo ?  If not, that's the explanation there.  Someone else turned the mobs gray and you got aggro because they would not be gray to you.<div></div>

[thedu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Arfiniel wrote:<div></div><div>Here's my recent (yesterday) experience...</div><div> </div><div>Full raid.  I'm not in the MT group.  I have not prewarded anyone at all.  Just standing there minding my own business.  Mob encounter gets proxy pulled, makes a beeline for the "first person in zone" bug person (it was not me, nor anyone in my group), and after that person is dead, it makes a beeline for me.  Why?  I thought it was that Runic Aegis regenning ward.  So I canceled the buff completely.  Rinse, repeat.  I was still second on the hate list, for doing absolutely nothing.  Dunno, maybe it's the dog.  I had his "protect me, protect yourself" turned off but who knows.</div><div> </div><div>Edit:  was running through Sol Eye the other day on my way to naggy, past the gray entrance mobs (ghostly little fellas).  They aggro'd me even though they were grey and non-aggro.  I've seen it happen to a wizard also, so don't think that's a mystic bug.  It may be a pet bug because the wizard had their book pet up, and I had the dog up.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Arfiniel on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Raid mob's are different I beleive. Sometimes they will leave me alone sometimes they will wipe everyone out no matter what.If your not grouped and you get grey aggro, it's mostly a 1) bug or 2) you have a quest that the mobs are related too, and will aggro even if they are grey.  In Zek, these cat's will always pop on my way to the greenhood area and attack --- just a bug...</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:45 AM</span></p>

[Slinkie]

I was with a group in SoS the other day.  We were moving down the hallway, and I did NOT have wards on the tank (except for the Runic Talisman buff).  We didn't see a mob until the tank rounded the corner...the mob ran past the tank to smack me, in the back of the group.Rudhi - 59 mystic<div></div>

[Banditman]

I note you are a L59 Mystic . . . were you the lowest level in the group?While leveling my Mystic, I often find myself running with groups that are significantly higher in level.  At L63 I was healing for  L70 tank in Halls of Fate for instance.  I died 16 times.  (we still won the zone)There is a known mechanic for mobs that causes them to have unseemingly high hate for lower level characters.<div></div>

[Verlaine]

<div>Personally I don't, play a mystic, but my girlfriend does, so I do use her from time to time to duo.  Isn't the agro caused by the buff that has a regening ward, I forget what line it is?  At least that is what I always figured was going on with the agro issue.  I haven't seen it as bad as of late, but typically if someone agroes a mob, without damaging it or taunting it, then it will head right for her.  As I thought before this was because of the buff that has a ward in it, so that instantly puts you on top of the hate list when the mob is agroed.</div><div> </div><div>Verlaine 54 Assassin</div><div>Cyran 49 Paladin</div><div>Mieko 31 Bruiser</div><div> </div><div>Shards of Velious</div><div>Crushbone </div>

[Eepop]

That issue was supposedly fixed previously, Banditman had heard some folks saying they thought it was back, so he wanted to canvas the community and see who was seeing it as a problem.Right now it looks like the cases of mysterious aggro and few enough to write them off to some other problem, such as:1) Prewarding2) Having a left over ward from a previous battle3) Issues with the puller leaving and re-entering the buff radius when pulling, and pulling with something that gives little to no aggro, like proximity (aka body) pulling.<div></div>

[Banditman]

The only real "issue" is that a LOT of zones now *require* your tanks to use a body pull by design.  I tremble to think what would happen in a zone like Halls of Fate if the tank were to pull in a manner that, up until KoS, was considered "normal".<div></div>

[Arfiniel]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Mobs that are gray to you may not be gray to everyone in the group, meaning they will still attack.Would you have grayed the mobs solo ?  If not, that's the explanation there.  Someone else turned the mobs gray and you got aggro because they would not be gray to you.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>1)  I'm level 70.  I was with a level 70 wizard, nobody else in group except our pets.  She got aggro.</p><p>2) Second time in, I was alone, no group.  Still level 70.  Got aggro (dogdog was up).  This actually happened twice before I killed the pet - once at the top of the elevator, and again at the bottom running past the ghostly little guys down there.</p><p>3) Third time in, I was alone, no group.  No dog this time.  No aggro from anything.  Ran it twice.  No aggro either time.  No dog either time.</p><p>Between the first visit and the 3rd visit, I neither accepted any new quests nor deleted any quests regarding this zone.   This is a bug, and I feel it is related to the pet being up.</p><p>Edit:  I did *update* a quest related to this zone, somewhere between steps 1 and 3, where I had to talk to Naggy as part of the deathtoll access quest line.  Maybe being on a certain step of that quest causes the problem.  #1 was me running to talk to the guy that gives relic chain info.  #2 was me running to talk to Naggy to update my deathtoll access quest.  #3 was me running back to Naggy to meet a friend who was lost trying to get to Naggy.  I didn't group with the person until I was down near bastion entrance, plus they were level 70 also.  I still feel it is pet related.  /shrug</p><p>Message Edited by Arfiniel on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:37 AM</span></p>

[Slinkie]

<div></div>I was tied for lowbie in the group.  A level 59 monk was ahead of me, and they bypassed her to get to me.

[Moonspinn]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Arfiniel wrote:</p><p>1)  I'm level 70.  I was with a level 70 wizard, nobody else in group except our pets.  She got aggro.</p><p>2) Second time in, I was alone, no group.  Still level 70.  Got aggro (dogdog was up).  This actually happened twice before I killed the pet - once at the top of the elevator, and again at the bottom running past the ghostly little guys down there.</p><p>3) Third time in, I was alone, no group.  No dog this time.  No aggro from anything.  Ran it twice.  No aggro either time.  No dog either time.</p><hr></blockquote>I had to run down into Sol Eye the other day and my dog was getting aggro from the groups of ghosts. There was a mage in the zone that said it was a bug that was happening in Sol Eye only as far as she knew.

[Baccalarium]

<div></div><p>I've seen the solesk eye agro.    The ghost mobs will agro on dogdog even if though they are grey.   When they weren't grey even the non-agro one would agro on dogdog.   I figured it was some kind of retribution for dogdog being a spirit willing to help the world of the living while they weren't.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Surly_Smurf]

<div>I certainly felt like Ward-aggro was on uppers when KoS first came out. Even my own guild-tanks were laughing at how the mobs were beating up on me and they are used to holding aggro against my Mystic.</div><div> </div><div>Lately, though I feel that for the most part tanks that are used to having a shaman in the group can hold the aggro well and it is predominately tanks who have little or no experience with shaman-ward-hate who have problems collecting all the hate.</div><div> </div><div>I do still get the aggro when someone (non-MT) gets proximity to a mob. Kinda irritating. Yes. As a chain wearer I'm in a better position to soak it up than the paper-towel wearers but on the other hand....I hate getting 5 interrupts in a row.  :smileytongue:</div>

[thedu]

Last night while doing some writs with guild members on the Cacotoxic(sp?) Stain Island in bonemire I would constantly get aggro from Corpse Candles.  I thought at first it was wards, but there were multiple times where wards were not on and I would get aggro.  And It was constant too...no just once or twice but always.  Really bizaare. <div></div>