Whats so special about being in the MT group anyways?

[Raff]

<div>Posting in the Mystic forums as I wanted to hear your feedback. I also assume many defilers read these boards and will speak up...</div><div> </div><div>I've been in the MT group for most of DoF. Currently, I am in the DPS group for a few reasons.</div><ul><li>The mystic works just as well in the MT group</li><li>Bolster is a great buff that provides value and equalizes our contribution margin (pls lets not debate this - other threads exist for that)</li><li>I am slacking on the defiler and only lvl 67, mystic is 70 (been playing my brig more this expansion)</li><li>I went STR AA to get the haste out of my pet,</li><ul><li>assumed mystic would be a better fit for the MT grp this expansion (initial Bolster buff at launch decision period)</li><li>Wanted to be the scout group healer and better buff that group</li></ul></ul><p>I enjoy being in the MT group, even though I tend to debuff less to insure I keep mana up. Yes, I still debuff in the MT grp; I'm just not as diligent at it. I also enjoy being in the other raid groups. I still follow all the MT healers around and max range blah blah, still heal the tank and I do focus more on debuffs (I.E. i never let them drop). I also spot heal more and make sure folks are kept alive. I do end up in the secondary tank group often for those mobs where you need off tanks. Which is fine by me. I also get to bid on all the lewt gear that drops.</p><p>So here's what I don't understand. What's so special about being in the MT group anyways? In the end it's about beating the raid mobs anyways (since this is a raiding focused topic). I am not asking w/ any sort of sarcasm here either. I really don't understand the passion folks have for the coveted spot of MT group. I am content moving around as needed. I might even go back to MT group if bolster becomes raid wide, who knows. It just doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is playing my toon well and contributing to the raid force. I also believe both shaman do this very well - both w/ advantages and disadvantages.</p><p>I only want an open/respectfull discussion on this. I'd like to understand others point of view.</p><p>Regards...</p><div> </div>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><p>Good post Raffta.  Apparently and based on what I have read thus far, for some people being in the MT group is the end-all and Be-all.  I always thought a raid was a group effort.  I am at times in the MT group, or outside.  Perhaps if they made some of the Defiler spells/buffs more raid-friendly and out-of-group this debate would end?  There's an idea and a banner I may take up :smileyhappy:</p><p>I actually enjoy being outside the MT group because then I get to do what I belevie we Defilers are best at:  Debuffing.  As you stated when in the MT group you have to constantly conserve mana and therefore have a limited amount of range in playstyle.</p><p>Peace Out.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Eepop]

No mystic is asking to always be in the MT group and only in the MT group.  We just want it to be an equal choice of which shaman to pick for any given group.Both MT and non-MT groups can be fun and rewarding, but eventually you get tired of the frustrations of protecting 5 crazy melee DPS people.<span><blockquote><hr>Raffta wrote:<ul><li>Bolster is a great buff that provides value and equalizes our contribution margin (pls lets not debate this - other threads exist for that)</li></ul>             <font color="#ff0000">Sorry, they do not equalize contributions.  I will accept that the discussion is being held elsewhere, but wanted to point out that this is not a fact as you try to pass it off as.</font><ul><li>I am slacking on the defiler and only lvl 67, mystic is 70 (been playing my brig more this expansion)</li></ul><p>So here's what I don't understand. What's so special about being in the MT group anyways? In the end it's about beating the raid mobs anyways (since this is a raiding focused topic). I am not asking w/ any sort of sarcasm here either. I really don't understand the passion folks have for the coveted spot of MT group. I am content moving around as needed. I might even go back to MT group if bolster becomes raid wide, who knows. It just doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is playing my toon well and contributing to the raid force. I also believe both shaman do this very well - both w/ advantages and disadvantages.</p><font color="#ff0000">As I said, its not about the MT group being "special" or coveted.  Mystics are content moving around as needed too, but the thing is, the current state of the game discourages mystics in the MT group role.  Right now if a raid force has an equal level and equal geared mystic and defiler, the defiler is much more valued in that role. What I want would be a situation like this:     Raid forms, present are a mystic and a defiler, both equal level and roughly equal spells/gear.     The mystics and defilers present discuss who would have the most fun being in what groups for that raid.     Thats what this is all about, having fun.  Doing the same thing night after night isnt fun, we just want the freedom to be in the MT group too.  Its not about being covetous of the spot, or thinking its something special.  What it is, is something different.  Options are always good.</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[thedu]

<div></div><span>I think others might be able answer some of this better than me, but it was something I have been thinking of posting for sometime as well.To be honest I really don't care if I am in the MT group or not. But the MT group is the group that is taking the point in primarily defeating the encounter. And then you have supporting groups for mostly DPS and making sure the MT group stays alive. This, of course is situational with the raid, and the possibility of having more than one MT group.So to be successful you would want to put the most capable group together in taking down the raid encounter.  In a majority of the situations the more HP a tank has -- not to say Mitigation, and other things don't factor in -- is quite important for his/her survivability.  There is more than ample evidence that stat caps are being topped, and therefore a class that can buff for the most Raw HP will be more desirable.If Mystics don't have the right tools to help in these situations then there is a disparity.  I'm sure others can give some better reponses on a technical level.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:40 AM</span></p>

[Kana]

<div><font size="2"><p>The MT group, in almost all cases, is designed to maximize the defensive capabilities of the MT. Mystics, by definition, are supposed to have slightly better defensive buffs than Defilers.  So, when we as Mystics see Defilers being chosen over us in the MT group, it begs the question…why them over us?</p><p>The debate will no doubt continue, with arguments like "Well Mystics have this or Defilers have that", but in my opinion, the real root of this debate is this: Mystics are the "defensive buff" shaman class.  Defilers are the "offensive debuff" shaman class. If Defilers are usually being chosen over Mystics for their defensive buffs, something isn't right.  It's certainly not about "MT group bragging rights".</p><p>Kanali</p></font></div>

[NimSul]

<blockquote><hr>Kanali wrote:<div><font size="2"><p>... Mystics are the "defensive buff" shaman class.  Defilers are the "offensive debuff" shaman class. If Defilers are usually being chosen over Mystics for their defensive buffs, something isn't right.  It's certainly not about "MT group bragging rights".</p><p>Kanali</p></font></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thats a very nice thought, dunno if it was ever ment to be like that, but its certainly not the "reality" of the game. Bouth mystics and defilers are very defensive oriented with limited use in any other groups, which is the root of the problem, the MT group is the place where bouth mystics and defilers exel at what they do, but only one can be there at a time.</p><p>That also answers the question from the OP: the mt group is where shaman can be played to its fullest potential in a raid. A shammy in another group can always be replaced by someone else for greater gain 90% of the time and will not be able to use his potential and abilities to its fullest. <u>The mt group is special because its where our classes is tailored to be</u>, who knows why soe made 2 classes to fill the same role, but they did.</p>

[Kana]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<p>Thats a very nice thought, dunno if it was ever ment to be like that, but its certainly not the "reality" of the game. Bouth mystics and defilers are very defensive oriented with limited use in any other groups, which is the root of the problem, the MT group is the place where bouth mystics and defilers exel at what they do, but only one can be there at a time.</p><p>That also answers the question from the OP: the mt group is where shaman can be played to its fullest potential in a raid. A shammy in another group can always be replaced by someone else for greater gain 90% of the time and will not be able to use his potential and abilities to its fullest. <u>The mt group is special because its where our classes is tailored to be</u>, who knows why soe made 2 classes to fill the same role, but they did.</p><hr></blockquote><div>The latest class descriptions don't seem to lend my statement much credibilty.  When I originally chose a Mystic over a Defiler, however, I seem to recall a much clearer differentiation.</div><div> </div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div>Defilers:  <a target="_blank" href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionDefiler">http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionDefiler</a></div><div>....Fearsome in battle, the Defiler employs ancient rituals of dark power to sicken, harm, and reduce the fighting prowess of the enemy.</div><div> </div><div>Mystics:  <a target="_blank" href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionMystic">http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionMystic</a></div><div>....The Mystic can enhance the party's attributes and provide magical protection in combat while inflicting debilitating weakness upon the enemy.</div></blockquote><div> </div><div>In any case, you bring up a good point....the MT group is a place where both of our classes should excel.</div><div> </div><div>Kanali</div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:No mystic is asking to always be in the MT group and only in the MT group.  We just want it to be an equal choice of which shaman to pick for any given group.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Currently defilers and mystics are equal choices for the MT group.  The best shaman for the MT group is the one with the most experience, best gear, and best spell upgrades.  It also makes sense for the shaman with the most consistent raid attendance to be in this position, because for best results the MT group needs to be well bonded together and used to playing with each other.</p><p>The first time I ever played in the MT group was the day that the senior shaman in my guild, a mystic, transferred from my server.  Up to that day, he was always the MT group shaman.  After that day, I became the senior shaman in my guild.  But we sometimes use a mystic in our MT group, it is not like the raid will be less successful if a mystic is in MT group rather than a defiler.  The important thing is that the MT group has a shaman, and a cleric, and usually a druid for best results.</p><p>I prefer playing in the MT group because it is usually more intense and has more action than other raid spots.  Other shaman don't mind where they play.  It is all a matter of individual preference.  But I also like being in an alternate spot from time to time, because it is nice to have more time to debuff the mob and have time to do other things, like heal players out of group and rez fallen raidmembers.  Variety is nice.</p>

[Purcupile]

<div></div><p>My feeling on this subject is that it isn't so much the class that is being chosen...it is the player.  If the raid leaders are evaluating who should go where they should be looking at several elements that have not been mentioned in this thread.</p><p>What is the make up of the spells on the different choices?  Are they master or adept III's or adept I? and since probably not all spells are maxed out which ones are best, compared to the needs of the particular raid.</p><p>How is he protected? Armor?  Mitigation as well as the other possible attributes that may be needed for different raids.</p><p>What is their play style?  Is this player one who likes to do his thing, or is he capable at focusing on the individual needs of the raid leaders.</p><p>Can he react and make good choices.  Lets face it; there are some who more or less freeze when the heat is on, or are perhaps a tad slower than another when casting wards and debuffs then suddenly having to switch to heals.</p><p>What is their experience in the raid zone?</p><p>There are other individual characteristics of the players and possible choices that need to be evaluated prior to assigning responsibilities, and from guild to guild the makeup of each is different.  In guild A the Mystic may be the best choice for a particular raid while in guild B perhaps it is the defiler.</p><p>I think there is too much emphasis put on a class...at least at the high levels.  This is where the best choice is the best prepared, and that can mean anyone.</p><p> </p><p>Purcupile</p><p>70 Mystic, Valor</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[Johaan]

<div></div><p>Wasn't the OP asking why MT?  Not who is selected, and not why they are selected. </p><p>Some people apparently are upset if they are not in the MT group.  Why is that?  What advantage does the MT group bestow on its members? Loot?  Prestige?  More experience?  What?  I suspect there are no advantages, but I don't know.</p><p>I thought it was a good question.  Anyone got an answer to the original question?</p>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Johaan wrote:<div></div><p>Wasn't the OP asking why MT?  Not who is selected, and not why they are selected. </p><p>Some people apparently are upset if they are not in the MT group.  Why is that?  What advantage does the MT group bestow on its members? Loot?  Prestige?  More experience?  What?  I suspect there are no advantages, but I don't know.</p><p>I thought it was a good question.  Anyone got an answer to the original question?</p><hr></blockquote><p>To you, and to the OP. The reason most healers want to be in the MT group is because:</p><p>A) it is the most intense Healing position on a raid (most responsibility)B) Holds prestige for a lot of players. (Bragging rights)C) It is where you need to know how to use all of your abilities to the fullest to keep that tank alive.D) Outside healing can be boring in comparison if all you are focusing on is healing and not debuffing etc..</p><p>Those are the general reasons.. Personally, I don't mind being in either MT or OT or whatever position on a raid. I just enjoy playing with my guild, and taking down hard encounters as a team. The role of an MT group healer is not for everyone, you need to be highly skilled, highly focused, and work well under pressure. I personally know quite a few healers who prefer to not be in the MT role as they find it too stressful.. whereas others feel that they are being under-utilized unless they are in the MT role..</p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Johaan wrote:<div></div><p>Wasn't the OP asking why MT?  Not who is selected, and not why they are selected. </p><p>Some people apparently are upset if they are not in the MT group.  Why is that?  What advantage does the MT group bestow on its members? Loot?  Prestige?  More experience?  What?  I suspect there are no advantages, but I don't know.</p><p>I thought it was a good question.  Anyone got an answer to the original question?</p><hr></blockquote>It's the thrill of being parf of THE group that is supposed to be bringing down the encounter.  Because good MT group is what *can* usually make or break a raid. I stress the word *can* because it's not always true. Without supporting groups the MT group can't succeed, but usually those with the best gear, best spells and best abilities *should* be in the MT group.It's also for many bragging rights.</span><div></div>

[Purcupile]

<div></div><div>     ^     </div><div>     ^</div><div>     ^</div><div>     ^</div><div>     ^</div><div>     ^</div><div>     ^                                 Johaan said:</div><div>     ^</div><div>Wasn't the OP asking why MT?  Not who is selected, and not why they are selected.<hr></div><p>If Johaan can follow the arrows up he will see it doesn't say "why" it says "what", as in "what's so special".  He didn't ask "who" either...but that was the way the responses were going.  The point here is that when you follow a thread it twists and turns as different responders add their opinions.  You then need to take the answers as a complete body of work and interepret the answer.  Why? because the answer is not so simple as who, what, why, and where...it is much more complex than that, and it changes depending on an individual's perspective...so you have to draw your own conclusion.  The point of my earlier response was that the most important factor in the make up of the MT group is the abilities and capabilities of the possible choices.  The MT group should be made up of the best players...and therein is your answer to "Whats so special about being in the MT group anyways?"...everyone wants to feel they are the best, and so if you are assigned that spot it is an acknowledgement that you fill that bill...at least from the current player pool for the current raid.  And that makes them feel special.</p><p> </p><p>Purcupile</p><p> </p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raffta wrote:<div>Posting in the Mystic forums as I wanted to hear your feedback. I also assume many defilers read these boards and will speak up...</div><div> </div><div>I've been in the MT group for most of DoF. Currently, I am in the DPS group for a few reasons.</div><ul><li>The mystic works just as well in the MT group</li><li>Bolster is a great buff that provides value and equalizes our contribution margin (pls lets not debate this - other threads exist for that)</li><li>I am slacking on the defiler and only lvl 67, mystic is 70 (been playing my brig more this expansion)</li><li>I went STR AA to get the haste out of my pet,</li><ul><li>assumed mystic would be a better fit for the MT grp this expansion (initial Bolster buff at launch decision period)</li><li>Wanted to be the scout group healer and better buff that group</li></ul></ul><p>I enjoy being in the MT group, even though I tend to debuff less to insure I keep mana up. Yes, I still debuff in the MT grp; I'm just not as diligent at it. I also enjoy being in the other raid groups. I still follow all the MT healers around and max range blah blah, still heal the tank and I do focus more on debuffs (I.E. i never let them drop). I also spot heal more and make sure folks are kept alive. I do end up in the secondary tank group often for those mobs where you need off tanks. Which is fine by me. I also get to bid on all the lewt gear that drops.</p><p>So here's what I don't understand. What's so special about being in the MT group anyways? In the end it's about beating the raid mobs anyways (since this is a raiding focused topic). I am not asking w/ any sort of sarcasm here either. I really don't understand the passion folks have for the coveted spot of MT group. I am content moving around as needed. I might even go back to MT group if bolster becomes raid wide, who knows. It just doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is playing my toon well and contributing to the raid force. I also believe both shaman do this very well - both w/ advantages and disadvantages.</p><p>I only want an open/respectfull discussion on this. I'd like to understand others point of view.</p><p>Regards...</p><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>First as it stands now a mystic in NO WAY works as well in the MT grp unless your tank never geared up and is under stat caps.  With bolster (even using my grp and single heal temp hp buffs before applying) I can get our MT to just over 13k hp for a few seconds, swap me with the defiler and he's at 12.8k for the entire encounter.</p><p>As for what's so special about the MT grp for me it's survival.  The MT grp is the one that gets the buffs so EVERYONE stays alive for that encounter, the rest of the raid is watching the whole GROUP's backs as MT losing buffs is not an option if you wanna win.  Now add that to the fact that I am very dilligent about my debufffs and know they are making a huge difference for the fight both in lowering damage and in boosting dps of other classes.  I can't debuff if I'm dead.  And while we'd all love to keep entire raids alive, anyone that raids regularly knows the other 3 grps are fodder until encounters are totally trivial to you anyway.  Other grps die as a matter of course, and while dead I find it difficult to cast. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Purcupile]

<div>Nacireen</div><div> </div><div>That is the best explanation regarding this question on the thread.  It broke it down to the basics.  Good job.</div><div> </div><div>Purcupile</div>