How these class debates should be stated. [Archive]

View Full Version : How these class debates should be stated.

Purcupile

03-09-2006, 10:18 PM

<div></div><div>I know that many of you who have been playing this game for a lot longer than I have will think "this noobie doesn't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]".And you are correct in that assessment. That is, however, the reason for this post...I want to learn more. I hope I speak for a lot of Mystics as well as Defilers (I will post this message on that forum also) who are new to this game or just aren't as knowledgeable and aware of many of the things discussed in these forums. I believe the better we understand the finer points of our class as well as other classes the more we will be able to contibute to our groups and or guilds. And quite frankly sometimes my head just spins as I sit here and think ..."what the hell are they talking about?"Most everyone takes shortcuts when posting...it is an abreviation or slang or an implication in references to a spell or event that not everyone knows what is being referred to. If your purpose of writing on these forums is to "communicate" then try to refrain from using those forms, be specific. Especially when one class is referring to a spell or attribute that the other class has, you should keep in mind that those reading your post may be thinking of a totally different spell or line of spells. There are class members at lower levels who have no idea what many specific spells are, what they do, or even that they exist. So if you take a little time by being more specific you will make your point better understood by nearly everyone who reads it (I may still be in the dark, but that's because I might be a numbskull).Let me give you an example of a recent post. The post was by a Defiler who was writing on the end of a long line of posts that contained a lot of flaming statements...by both classes. I think this post by Duntzzz and the follow up post by another defiler...Broomhilde were cordial, friendly and quite frankly a breath of fresh air in the atmosphere of the previous flaming and especially so as they were crossing into the Mystic board. Comments like theirs add to our board, and in my opinion are always welcome. (An aside to Duntzzz) please don't think I am flaming your post...I am using it because it helps demonstrate the point I am trying to make. Your intention was...and I am sure was done successfully to many of the community...to offer a fair and balanced approach to the discussion...and that effort is appreciated.My comments are in red.<hr>Duntzzz said:With reguards to balance.. I agree there are some things that are definatley out of whack.. but we all have our strengths and weaknesses..Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance..specifically which spells do this or is it a particular spell line (lower Mystics and Defilers may be 20-30 levels below and are using spells with different names) and which stat caps are you referring to? - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations. ...Any ones in particular? - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid. ..Good this was specific. I (as many lower level Mystics and Defliers) don't have any raid experience...so this knowledge while may not be helpful today ...will be tomorrow. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal... How? - Single target "Cure all" spell...Which ones? - More actual HP Heal spells (if you include your pet)...how many more? How many if you don't include your pet? Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless...which buff? - Less single target slows...at all levels? How many fewer? - No Cannibalize ability...is this a Defiler spell? What does it do? - Low relative DPS...Yeah I understand that completely...I think I lead my guild in deaths. If I have to start hitting the mob our group is in trouble....Big Trouble.Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..What? How? With what? - More Single target Debuffs...at all levels? How many more. What are they called? (not all an example). - Cannibalize ability...answered my own question. - Stun cure (when it works)...what is it? Is it broken? - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows...Good, I would have asked: such as? - More Wards (if you include our pet)...same question as above: How many more? What if you don't include pet?Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it...What are they called? - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group...what is it called? - No avoidance buffs...Such as the________ that Mystics? have. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)...is that what it is called...Nox? What ones do the Mystics have that you are referring to?In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff (What is it called?) to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells. (Any ones in particular or just all?)As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up. (I understood this completely...so you have a spell that buffs the MT like Bolster, or is it different?)Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..(Good, now i understand Defile)Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do. (they are in our ranks as well)<hr>By knowing more about Defilers and how their spells work, and what their strengths and weaknesses are and visaversa we become better group companions and guild raiders. I pretty much have the attitude that I want to focus on being the best Mystic (I have no alts) that I can be. Knowing how different spells work with all classes helps me be a better group member when grouped with them, so I appreciate the sharing of your thoughts about the different classes and their spells. I don't really think about someone having more than me...a player who is buffed and has the best spells and attributes doesn't help anyone if he doesn't know how to play his class to the best of his ability. ThanksPurcupile Eaglespirit66 Mystic of ValorKithicor </div>

Purcupile

03-09-2006, 10:43 PM

<div>Wow. While I was writing the above message Banditman and Duntzzz were creating a perfect example of what I was talking about using the same message I was referring to.</div><div> </div><div>Duntzzz original comments are in white, Banditman's in Red followed by Duntzzz responses in blue.</div><div> </div><div>Now this is communication and responses due to being specific...they make sense!</div><div> </div><div>But still remember those readers who are at levels where this wouldn't make sense wiithout the specifics.</div><div> </div><div>Banditman wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations.I'll try to keep this brief, but let me assure you that AE Slows are NOT anywhere NEAR as effective as our Haze line. The main strength of the Haze line is that it debuffs not only speed, but skill as well. The AE versions do not debuff skill, only speed. Further, and I hope Defilers understand this, Slows only affect the auto attack swing speed of a mob. It doesn't affect the cast or recast times of CA's / Spells. In general, a 25% Slow with no skill debuff only drops the overall DPS of a mob by about 8%.I realize that Slow's are not as near as effective as a skill debuff, but when you're fighting the trash mobs.. yes.. it definately helps cut down on the healing requirements (PPTR anyone?). So I still think that this is a Pro for Mystics, and I really don't think that any Mystic would give this ability up. =D - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid.Leave off "spells like" and you'll have a winner. Torpor is the only additional cross raid cast we can make insofar as healing goes. Avatar, Foretelling and all the rest of our buffs and spells are NOT cross raid castable.OK.. even without the "spells like" it is still one more thing that you can do cross raid that we cannot. I'd love to have an "Extra" ward that I could throw on the MT when I'm not in their group. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted healBzzt. Sorry, we have some nice parting gifts for you. The total overheal protection is like 250 HP at the most. So, if we heal a tank who is 500 HP down with a 1400 HP heal we still burn 650 HP for nothing. Further, the overheal protection doesn't stack. So, once you have that boost in place, subsequent spells will overheal. Finally, EVERYONE gets to use this once we put it in place. Once that little boost is there, everyone can use it.Sorry, I misunderstood how large (small) that HP buff was, and that they did not stack.. I'll keep that info handy.. thank you for clarifying..Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless.So, basically, in nearly every endgame raiding situation. Gotcha.Not necessarily.. especially if your raid is short on chanters, and you need a 2nd tank for the adds.. this will help make that 2nd tank the best they can be if they are lacking the gear of your typical MT. I would however like to see your Stat buffs ignore the cap.. this would solve a lot of the issues Mystics are currently having between our buffs and yours.. - Less single target slowsWe have enough, we don't need any more.Sorry, I should have stated Debuffs, not slows.. we can all slow to the cap quite easily. - No Cannibalize abilityOf our own. We can still use a Manastone but that's not exactly the same. - Low relative DPS.Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..A clear advantage in any endgame situation.Again, see the info above.. if you're MT is not near the cap.. (and not every raid MT is near the cap, as we can't all get the gear) I would take the HP / Power / AGI over just straight HP / Power (and a lot less power at that) - More Single target Debuffs.Good. That's how it should be. - Cannibalize abilityWe're a little jealous, since it really seems Canabalize should be a Shaman ability, not an ability specific to one sub-class. We'll probably get over it. - Stun cure (when it works)I would bug the snot out of a Dev until it did work properly.The "Devs" have already stated that this spell is working as intended.. we can only cure stuns etc that are cureable by a regular single target cure.. the only difference is we can cast this while stunned/stifled/mezzed/fear'd etc... there are a ton of these effects, usually epic encounters, that this does absolutely jack for, because the Dev's have decided to make that stun un-cureable and that's when we need it the most.. Sanctuary on the other hand will prevent these stuns from happening in most situations. we are still working on this one =D - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.I'm not sure this is a good thing or a bad thing. Probably neither, it's just the way Defilers work.They're not great (the wards anyhow) but they help on the really long fights as they are extremely power efficient, and tend to fire off enough to warrant the casting time. - More Wards (if you include our pet)*shrug*Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it.Welcome to life outside the MT group - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT groupDoesn't matter. The mob had bloody well better be at the Slow cap anyway. I'm not sure I'd call the Tendrils line your biggest debuff when you're sitting on something like the Abhorence line. Abhorrence line is nice.. Master is 32% to all stats.. Tendrils thought IS our largest Slow / DPS reducer, and is a buff that goes on the MT which procs when they are hit.. I believe the master is ~25% slow / ~30% DPS reduction, and it procs like crazy. (numbers may be slightly off, as I'm not looking at the actual spell) This is only useable when in the MT group, and costs us no power. - No avoidance buffs.All we have is the Avatar line, which adds less than 1% avoidance in the post LU13 world - and only to one player in our group. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)You aren't missing much. <img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" border="0">In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.I think you need to realize that you don't NEED to cast all your spells. You're probably wasting power unless you are doing it for secondary effects. The Slow and DPS debuff caps are incredibly easy to reach with both a Mystic and Defiler in the raid.Every single Hostile spell we have has some sort of Debuff attached to it. I don't cast these for the damage, but to either slow down the mob, or increase damage of my raids DPS classes.. on a single target mob it makes a HUGE difference in how well the fight goes..Fuluginous - DoT + %DPS reductionBane Line - Proc WardAphotic - AE DoT + Nox resist Debuff (for your fellow warlocks / assassins / necros)Imprecation - DD + Nox Resist DebuffPutrify - DoT + Wiz DebuffAs for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.We try really hard to ignore unpleasant elements in any community, including our own. Sometimes they get the best of us.<hr></blockquote></div><hr></div>

Eileithia

03-09-2006, 11:19 PM

<div></div>No worries, Here's a brief overview for you (and anyone else who is interested)Stats:Wisdom (WIZ) - Increases your overall resistance to spells, also increases Priests power pool.Agility (AGI)- Increases your Avoidance to melee attacks, also increases Scouts power pool.Strength (STR)- Increases how hard you hit a mob with a melee attack, also increases Fighters power pool.Intellegance (INT)- Increases you hard you hit a mob with a magical(spell) attack, also increase Mages power pool.Stamina (STA)- Increases the total health pool of any class.Stat Caps:Currently there is a soft cap on the amnount of any of the above stats a single player can have. what this means is that if you get over a certain number the effects listed above will not increase any further.. The cap is 7 x Your Level. At level 60 the cap for any one of the above abilities is 420, at level 70 it is 490. When we talk about someone hitting the cap we are saying that there is no benefit to getting a person over that magical number.. every point of a given stat increases it's effect by a certain amount..Example.. You have a tank at level 60 with 400 STA.. the cap is 420.. if you buff this tank with a STA buff, and he goes over 420 every number past 420 has no additional benefit.. so they will not gain further health from having any more STA above 420.. The reason this causes problems is there is no cap in raw Hitpoints. If you take Mystics and Defilers for example, we both have a single target buff that is used to increase HP/Power. the Difference is that Mystics do it via Stats (STA / STR / AGI) and Defilers do it via Raw numbers (HP / Power). So.. if you are in a situation where your tank is at or very near the stat cap for STA, you are better off to have a Defiler use their raw HP buff on the tank to get their HP higher than you would using a STA buff.Resists:These play a large role in how much damage you take from hostile spells.. there are 7 different types of hostile spells that can be cast on you. Magic, Devine, Heat, Cold, Poison, Disease, Mental. Currently, the cap for resisting these types of damage is 80%.. which means you can resist a maximum of 80% of the incomming spells vs an even con (white) mob.. If you open your persona window and hover over the number you have for each resist, it will tell you what % of that type of damage you will resist vs a white mob.. You will resist less attacks from higher con mobs, than you will from lower con mobs.. Anyhow.. to your post, I've answered your questions below as best I can: <blockquote><hr>Purcupile wrote:<div></div><div><hr>Duntzzz said:With reguards to balance.. I agree there are some things that are definatley out of whack.. but we all have our strengths and weaknesses..Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance..specifically which spells do this or is it a particular spell line (lower Mystics and Defilers may be 20-30 levels below and are using spells with different names) and which stat caps are you referring to?I've outlined this above.. the spell line for Mystics is Avitar, Defilers is Portent.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations. ...Any ones in particular? - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid. ..Good this was specific. I (as many lower level Mystics and Defliers) don't have any raid experience...so this knowledge while may not be helpful today ...will be tomorrow. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal... How? As bandit explained in his reply to my post that there is a small HP buff on all of your direct heal spells that goes on the tank when you heal.. these apparently do not stack, and anyone can use them.. I misunderstood the effectiveness of this ability.. but it is still there to some degree.. - Single target "Cure all" spell...Which ones? You get this spell at level 55 as one of your "Ancient Teaching abilities" is is a single target cure everything (Poison, Disease, Devine, Mental, Magic, Heat, Cold) - More actual HP Heal spells (if you include your pet)...how many more? How many if you don't include your pet?1 more with Torpor (Single target Ward + Heal over time), and 2 more with the pet (Group Heal for all targets in range)Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless...which buff?Specifically, Avitar (STR / STA / AGI), and one other I can't think of the name off the top of my head.. best have a mystic answer this question for you. - Less single target slows...at all levels? Yes past about level 20.. How many fewer? 1-2 if memory serves - No Cannibalize ability...is this a Defiler spell? What does it do? Cannibalize is a classic ability from EQ1 for the Shaman class, and back then it allowed you to transfer a great amount of your own health to power so you could keep healing.. in EQ2 Defilers get an ability called Forced Cannibalize as one of our Ancient Teaching spells.. this is a very small DoT spell that is cast on our target that gives us power regen for a short durration.. it costs no power to cast, and can be cast approx every 30 seconds.. It does help out in longer fights as it does stack with other Regen abilities.. - Low relative DPS...Yeah I understand that completely...I think I lead my guild in deaths. If I have to start hitting the mob our group is in trouble....Big Trouble.Not to worry, we both suck in this department.. defilers are only slightly better before level 65, and gain a bit more of an edge with Defile at level 65.. This is also totally dependant on how much INT you have, as the more INT the higher your DPS will be (up to the cap of course)Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..What? How? With what? Portant, Single target HP / Power buff ~1000HP, and ~500 Power.. this is raw HP / Power so the stat cap does not come into effect. - More Single target Debuffs...at all levels? How many more. What are they called? All of our damage spells have a debuff component to them, as well we have 4 other debuffs that are just straight debuffs.. these are all single target except for our Aphotic line, which has an AE Nox debuff (Poison, Disease) as well as a DoT. - Cannibalize ability...answered my own question. - Stun cure (when it works)...what is it? Is it broken? I explained this in detail on my other post.. if you are interested in learning more about it, do a search on the forums for VoA - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows...Good, I would have asked: such as? Our largest single target Slow / DPS reducing spell is a proc that goes on the MT called Tendrills of ***. this has a chance to proc every time the tank is hit, and costs us no power.. we have to be in the tanks group to use this ability. - More Wards (if you include our pet)...same question as above: How many more? What if you don't include pet? I belive we have the same if you don't include our pet, we have one more if you do.Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it...What are they called? Balm, Sacrifical, and Spectral Lines. - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group...what is it called? Tendrils of ***... Listed above. - No avoidance buffs...Such as the________ that Mystics? have. Avitar.. increase Agility single target.. it's not much, but it's there. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)...is that what it is called...Nox? What ones do the Mystics have that you are referring to? Not sure of the name of the Mystic line, but you have an encounter AE Slow. Nox is the short form for Poison / Disease resists.In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff (What is it called? Avitar ) to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells. (Any ones in particular or just all?)As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up. (I understood this completely...so you have a spell that buffs the MT like Bolster, or is it different?)Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..(Good, now i understand Defile)Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do. (they are in our ranks as well)<hr>By knowing more about Defilers and how their spells work, and what their strengths and weaknesses are and visaversa we become better group companions and guild raiders. I pretty much have the attitude that I want to focus on being the best Mystic (I have no alts) that I can be. Knowing how different spells work with all classes helps me be a better group member when grouped with them, so I appreciate the sharing of your thoughts about the different classes and their spells. I don't really think about someone having more than me...a player who is buffed and has the best spells and attributes doesn't help anyone if he doesn't know how to play his class to the best of his ability. ThanksPurcupile Eaglespirit66 Mystic of ValorKithicor </div><hr></blockquote>

Banditman

03-09-2006, 11:58 PM

Actually, the "number" for a stat cap is slightly more complex.It is in fact 7 x level . . . plus your racial base. So if you have a racial base Stamina of 20, your STA cap at L70 would be (7x70)+20 = 510.Yea. Weird.However, the fact that the racial bases are part of the equation tells me that the stat cap can be flexible if the Devs choose to make it so.<div></div>

thedu

03-10-2006, 12:57 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:No worries, Here's a brief overview for you (and anyone else who is interested)Stats:Wisdom (WIZ) - Increases your overall resistance to spells, also increases Priests power pool.Agility (AGI)- Increases your Avoidance to melee attacks, also increases Scouts power pool.Strength (STR)- Increases how hard you hit a mob with a melee attack, also increases Fighters power pool.Intellegance (INT)- Increases you hard you hit a mob with a magical(spell) attack, also increase Mages power pool.Stamina (STA)- Increases the total health pool of any class.</blockquote><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>I think the one thing with this is that we get no additional benefits for, say, additional strength in terms of doing damage. While we do get *some* additional benefit it is often neglible (sp?). I think there was a post by Eepop where he did some tests with STR that showed this;<div></div>Message Edited by thedump on 03-09-200611:59 AM

Eileithia

03-10-2006, 12:58 AM

<div></div>I agree that Mystic Stat buffs should ignore the cap to some degree.. just for the reason of that buff being completely useless if your MT is already at or very close to the cap for all 3 stats.. Unfortunately, I think if they did make it so that your stat buffs ignored the cap.. so would all the others.. and they would have mages running around doing even more insane damage than they already do and throwing the so-called PC vs NPC balance totally out of whack again.The only way I could see that they could do this without damaging the balance in all current encounters would be to limit it to one spell over the cap.. so you could not buff stack and get insane numbers with the right group formations.. As to how they would achieve that on the backend, I have no clue..I do hope for your case that there is some sort of resolution to this.. even change that spell into a raw HP / Power / Avoidance buff instead of stats.. /shrug

Eileithia

03-10-2006, 01:07 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I think the one thing with this is that we get no additional benefits for, say, additional strength in terms of doing damage. While we do get *some* additional benefit it is often neglible (sp?). I think there was a post by Eepop where he did some tests with STR that showed this;</blockquote><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well.. I believe the reason we get no real benefit from this is because for a priest the only thing it increases is our Melee auto-attack damage.. but if you look at a Monk, or a Zerker.. you will see that increasing their STR will definately increase the amount of attack damage they can put out as their combat art damage is directly tied to STR as our Spell damage is directly tied to INT..

thedu

03-10-2006, 01:23 AM

<blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div>Well.. I believe the reason we get no real benefit from this is because for a priest the only thing it increases is our Melee auto-attack damage.. but if you look at a Monk, or a Zerker.. you will see that increasing their STR will definately increase the amount of attack damage they can put out as their combat art damage is directly tied to STR as our Spell damage is directly tied to INT.. <hr></blockquote>Yup. I just wanted to clarify it for anyone else reading this thread that didn't know about it before.<div></div>

Terayon

04-10-2006, 01:37 AM

This post/replies Is EXACTLY what i was looking for. it shows me all the important details without all the boring flames. Kudos to you and thanks.<div></div>

Thatdumbg

04-10-2006, 06:57 AM

Somewhat of a side note... but I'd check out the <a href="http://www.eq2interface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=4153" target="_blank">Milquetowst Info Center.</a>This UI information window is a great way to study up on effects and spells in general, it has helped me to learn alot about the spell system across the board. I'll study it when I'm bored, waiting on spires, after wipes, during breaks, etc... and I'll also refer to it whenever I hear/see someone talking about an ability they have. Overall its an awesome passive resource for polishing up your knowledge of the spell system. I don't always have the time or care to take take the time when I'm posting about something in my posts, to be honest... and I'm sure there are many people like me.<div></div>

Sokolov

04-10-2006, 05:55 PM

<div>I have summarized the spell lines which account for the Health buffing disparity. As you can see, all 3 lines for the Mystic are buffs, but only 2 are for the Defiler. However, Defilers get a raw HP buff in both cases, whereas the Mystic buffs STA and STR twice, and in the shared line at 58, buffs Health/Power in a porportion inverse to what Defilers buff.58 - Health/Power buff, more Health for Defiler, more Power for MysticDefiler - PortentMystic - Fortelling60 - Defilers get a raw HP buff, and Mystics get STADefiler - Rapacity - STR and Health buffMystic - Spirit of the Mammoth - STR and STA buff61 - Defilers get a debuff, Mystics get a buffDefiler - Abhorrent Seal - STR/AGI/WIS DebuffMystic - Ancient Avatar - STR/AGI/WIS Buff</div>

Eepop

04-10-2006, 07:55 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div>I have summarized the spell lines which account for the Health buffing disparity. As you can see, all 3 lines for the Mystic are buffs, but only 2 are for the Defiler. However, Defilers get a raw HP buff in both cases, whereas the Mystic buffs STA and STR twice, and in the shared line at 58, buffs Health/Power in a porportion inverse to what Defilers buff.58 - Health/Power buff, more Health for Defiler, more Power for MysticDefiler - PortentMystic - FortellingI don't think any mystic has much of a problem with this difference.60 - Defilers get a raw HP buff, and Mystics get STADefiler - Rapacity - STR and Health buffMystic - Spirit of the Mammoth - STR and STA buffHere is where the real root of the problem lies. +health isnt effected by any cap, +sta is +health effects all members equally, +sta gives ALOT fewer HP to the softer classes That said, the mystic version can't really be changed to straight HP because then the two would be the same, and people would complain about diversity. 61 - Defilers get a debuff, Mystics get a buffDefiler - Abhorrent Seal - STR/AGI/WIS DebuffMystic - Ancient Avatar - STR/AGI/STA BuffHere's where the problem becomes just too much to accept. Here, mystics are recieving an additional buff beyond what defilers get. And yet, even using this we are still significantly behind defiler buffing. So we are still behind in buffing, and defilers essentially get Abhorrent Seal as extra icing on the cake which mystics get no equivilent.Here is where a change needs to be made. The mystic buff can be completely reworked to allow mystic to equal defilers in HP buffing on a single target. The defiler's superior Rapacity would still be giving better buffing on the rest of the group, but if the ammount buffed on the tank were equal it would be acceptable.This brings us to65- Defilers get a PBAoE DoT, Mystics get a buffDefiler - Defile - PBAoE DoTMystic - Bolster - +%hp, +%stats(which effectively does nothing because the tank is capped from Mammoth & Avatar)As it is now, mystics need Bolster to equal in bursts of hp what defilers can do at all times. But this means that Bolster isnt being balanced against Defile, its being balanced to make up for the rapacity disparity.This makes Defile, the defiler's second "free" spell compared to mystics.</div><hr></blockquote>I recognize that defilers have several issues of thier own, and I have supported them as best as I can in getting them fixed. But Im not asking for defilers to be nerfed in any way.More than anything, I just want Avatar reworked to provide an equal benefit in the way of hp buffing on the MT.This would make the balance:Both:Buff the MT consistently for the same ammount (although the mystic must use an additional spell)Defiler:Buffs the group for more HP than mystics.Have Abhorrent Seal for more debuffing power.Have Defile for more damage potential.Mystic:Buff slightly more power to the MT than the defiler does.Able to pull ahead in hp in bursts with Bolster. (Which they dont need to be in the MT group to do)<div></div>

Sokolov

04-10-2006, 08:01 PM

<div></div><div></div><div>*nods* I agree with what you said (as it is just an elaboration on what I summarized).I wouldn't think there'd be much of an issue with doing something like this with the level 60 buff... STR and HP for Defilers and AGI and HP for Mystics.Interesting thing about Abhorrent Seal tho - you speak in terms of it being an extra debuff, and it is true. Abhorrent Seal is typically the 3rd Debuff I land, but on mobs where the debuff matters I am most likely unable to debuff very much due to chain-ward/healing (tho I will let the damage slip a bit to get in my Degenerate), not to mention the liklihood that it will be outright resisted. As such, in many cases, the passive nature of your buff will actually get more use in those cases. On raids tho, it is constantly on along with the rest of my debuffs if I am not in the MT group.</div>Message Edited by Sokolov on 04-10-200609:03 AM

Banditman

04-10-2006, 08:51 PM

The real problem between Rapacity and Spirit of the Mammoth is that even if caps were removed, it STILL wouldn't be a fair comparison.There is no situation where 75 STA = 666 HP. In general, a single point of any stat will yield 5 Power/HP or less. At best, Spirit of the Mammoth would yield 375 HP, and as we're all aware, it usually yields significantly less than this across the entire group and specifically on a MT.The differences in Portent / Foretelling are in that they just don't "add up". Portent buffs a total of 1456 Points, split among HP and Power. Foretelling buffs only 1381 Points, split among HP and Power. The 75 point difference, put into HP for Foretelling, would make it buff 718 HP and 738 Power. It may not seem like much, but it really does make it "look" more equivalent.Nevertheless, the main difference is definitely Spirit of the Mammoth. There is simply no way for it to ever even approach being as effective as Rapacity for increasing the HP of the group. It just isn't mechanically balanced at all.If you start dragging Avatar into the arguement and setting it against a debuff for Defilers, that's fine and truly offers some diversity, which I think most folks view as a Good Thing (tm). However, what most Defilers seem reluctant to talk about is that if you do this, Mystics should buff MORE than Defilers do. Right now, you're trying to set a buff against a debuff just to make all buffs equal.A Defiler should in this case debuff more, he has the spell right? The same should apply on the Mystic side if that's the correlation you are trying achieve. A Mystic should buff more, a Defiler should debuff more given an equal number of spells to the task.<div></div>

Sokolov

04-10-2006, 09:02 PM

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:If you start dragging Avatar into the arguement and setting it against a debuff for Defilers, that's fine and truly offers some diversity, which I think most folks view as a Good Thing (tm). However, what most Defilers seem reluctant to talk about is that if you do this, Mystics should buff MORE than Defilers do. Right now, you're trying to set a buff against a debuff just to make all buffs equal.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I wasn't trying to make anything equal. If you noticed my original post, I said specifically that I was summarizing the spells which account for the disparity.The reason I included the debuff/buff is because I like to compare spell lines as opposed to spells in insolation, in this case the counterpart to the buff IS the debuff. And we note that 2 of the Mystic spells buff STA, which does nothing to help a tank nearing the STA cap.(In other words, the nature of the Avatar/Seal dichotomy, which in of itself can be considered argubly balanced, further exacerbate the situation due to the doubling up of Stamina buffs.)</div>Message Edited by Sokolov on 04-10-200610:08 AM

Banditman

04-10-2006, 09:35 PM

It all comes back to STA every time.The problems with STA:1. It's not equal on all players. Mages get a lot less benefit from STA than Fighters do. This mechanic is probably ok, in fact, if STA worked as it should.2. It's too easy to cap STA without buffs. The coded hard caps work against anyone who buffs STA, let alone someone who relies upon it to buff HP.3. It's not equivalent in buffs. 75 STA will never equate to 666 HP. Even uncapped, a tank who gains 75 STA will not gain 666 HP - in fact not even close to it.Those problems need to be addressed.Until they are this tired old topic will keep coming up.Put Fighters on one side of a graph, and Mages on the other. A Mage should get more benefit from raw HP than he does from STA. This makes sense, at least to me. A Fighter should get more benefit from STA than raw HP. Again, this makes sense to me.So, in the dead center, should be 666 HP. Right in the middle, 75 STA should equal 666 HP. I dunno what class that might be in the middle there. As you move toward the Fighter side of the graph, the benefits of a STA buff should exceed the benefit of a raw HP buff and as you move toward the Mage side, the benefits of a HP buff should exceed the benefits of a STA buff.Unfortunately, the further mechanic of capped stats would continue to fight against this graph since most Fighters are going to be STA capped already and get NO benefit from the STA buff at all. In order to defeat that, you'd need to have STA buffs push the hard cap up in order to yield their full benefit.It's a two step process.First, you have to make STA buffs equal to raw HP buffs in the middle of the pack. Right now, that's certainly not true.Second, you have to allow the STA buffs to actually take effect. Thus, allowing the buffs to raise the cap.It seems simple enough to me.<div></div>

NimSul

04-10-2006, 10:12 PM

<div>I still think the whole problem is that SOE has made 2 classes that does pretty much the exact same thing, untill soe desides to make either the defiler or the mystic into a more offensive buffer so we get a more fury/warden setup or a setup more in line with dirge/trub difference of buffing different classes then 1 of 2 things will happen.</div><div> </div><div>1. one of the classes will be better - sux for the other</div><div>2. the two classes will be identical - sux for bouth imo</div><div> </div><div>Personally i dont care if i buff offensive or defensive, i just dont want to be stuck in the place of a offensive buffer with all my defensive buffs atm, as im sure many mystics dont want either.</div>

Thatdumbg

04-11-2006, 04:07 PM

I think at this point I am nearly convinced that the stat cap should have remained levelx10, which was the original plan/idea from what I understand. In my opinion, stat caps exist for raids (meaning, those that raid are much likelier to hit them), and most raiders have zero problems buffing the one or two stats they need to cap, mostly wearing tier 6 gear. One might argue that people can rethink their kits based around this; and to some extent, that is true. But in my opinion, currently there is no itemization at the fabled level to account for this.My MT was hitting the stat cap on all of his physicals from the outset of the expansion, and even regearing towards other things has had very limited success... how many items have you seen with plus intelligence or wisdom AND parry/defense, etc?!<div></div>