Correct me if im wrong, shouldnt HP (life) be good side and power evil side?

[Flor]

I thought mystics being the good side should buff HP ( life ) more and power less while defilers , evil side, should focus on power.Yet is not like this. Is there any logical explanation  for this?I thought mystics the good side should focus on the buffs and beneficial spells like that while defilers would focus more on debuffs and dps.It shouldnt be that defilers buff more HP than mystics. They should reverse it, give mystics more HP buffs and defilers more power buffs and this prolly would balance the classes a lil bit.<div></div>

[Kyin]

<div></div><p>that would mean actual thought went into making of the classes. Silly you. =P</p><p> </p><p>Makes sense but thats why its not in =P</p>

[Banditman]

You echo what I believe to be the sentiment of many Mystics in the feeling that Mystics were intended to be the more defensive / buff oriented of the Shaman.<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/defiler.JPG" alt="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/defiler.JPG"><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/mystic.JPG" alt="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/mystic.JPG">Someone need to change these then. Stright from the class description, mystics SHOULD enhance party atributes while defilers reduce prowess of the enemy.They need to change this ASAP, and stop fooling the poor ppl who buy this game and create a mystic thinking they will be a good buffing character.Someone need to make them aware if they want to buff, they need to make a defiler.<p>Message Edited by Florin on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Florin on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 AM</span></p>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:<div></div><div></div>Someone need to change these then. Stright from the class description, mystics SHOULD enhance party atributes while defilers reduce prowess of the enemy.They need to change this ASAP, and stop fooling the poor ppl who buy this game and create a mystic thinking they will be a good buffing character.Someone need to make them aware if they want to buff, they need to make a defiler.<hr></blockquote><p>Hello Mystics,</p><p>if what you all are saying is to be taken literally, then Mystics should not get any Slows or debuffs at all.  Yet you do have them, in fact the description of Mystic states that you do.  I'm not sure why this is coming up so late in the game but making the shamans very specific as your describing makes for a boring class IMO.  Every healer should be able to do a little of something yet specialize in a few things so that a raid or group can function without being DEPENDENT on ONE type of healer.</p><p>Just my 2cp.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:25 PM</span></p>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Broomhilda wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Hello Mystics,</p><p>if what you all are saying is to be taken literally, then Mystics should not get any Slows or debuffs at all.  Yet you do have them, in fact the description of Mystic states that you do.  I'm not sure why this is coming up so late in the game but making the shamans very specific as your describing makes for a boring class IMO.  Every healer should be able to do a little of something yet specialize in a few things so that a raid, group can function without be DEPENDENT on ONE type of healer.</p><hr></blockquote>You are ignoring the root of the problem:Defilers have more debuffs than Mystics do.  The only debuffs that Mystics beat defilers in are AE resist debuffing, and AE slows.  The AE slow is almost useless in a raid context, the mobs that arent directly being attacked by the MA are either mezzed or are being AEd and are dead before AE slow finishes casting.Defilers buff HPs better than Mystics do.  Arguments can be made that with bolster they are equal, but consider then that:   Defilers buff consistently for that ammount of hps with 3 buffs.  Once cast, there is no mana upkeep.   Mystics buff under defilers in a consistent sense and can only pull ahead in spurts with bolster at the cost of mana.  Mystics have to use 5 spells.If that were fixed we could accept the things below this point, but I'll continue for a sake of completeness.Defilers also get Defile, which gives them more damage options than mystics.Defilers direct heals heal for more.Defilers wraithform has hp regen, which is much more useful than the +str mystic bearform has.</span><div></div>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I do not beleive I was ignoring the "root", I was responding to the post that the OP started which questioned the form and function of the two shaman classes.  Defiler being Debuffers, Mystic being Buffers.  What your talking about is other issues that from my observation have been debated repeatedly on these and other forums ad nuaseum.</p><p>Again I'll state, based on the OP's post, If Defilers are supposed to be the weakeners of enemies and Mystics the Buffers of allies, then Mystics should get no debuffs if Defilers are not able to buff HP.  Just my opinion based on the original post.  You are going over a laundry list of concerns that have nothing to do with the concept the OP expressed.  I understand your current fustrations, and all I can say is "Welcome to the club", Defilers were broken for 9 months and several of our spells are STILL broken, so I certainly can relate.  I persoanlly dont think Bolster should have been changed.</p><p>Good luck in getting your issues addressed. </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:08 PM</span></p>

[Kyin]

<div></div><div></div><p>Broomhilda that is what we are asking for but as you know I am sure you are already the best shaman pick for a group every time.</p><p>Defilers heal better</p><p>We ward the same,</p><p>Defilers debuff better</p><p>Defilers buff better</p><p>The way it should be.....</p><p>We heal the same</p><p>We ward the same</p><p>Defilers debuff better</p><p>Mystics buff better</p><p>Dps should be the same for both, though If str mattered for priests melee attacks then I would say, Mystics do more melee damage, defilers more Spell damage.</p><p>That would be balanced.</p><p>Sadly its not.</p><p>So you can say every class is fine, sure take a mystic and he can keep you alive.  But the job is done better on all grounds if you take a defiler.  Is that balanced?  No its not.</p><p>Why is it coming out so late?</p><p>Well its not its been said sense beta but the difference wasnt as big then.  As the level cap is raised the difference is greater because it is easier to cap out stats and returns for Stats gets less and less. </p><p>Solution</p><p>Fix STA buffs (and all stat buffs) to not be goverend by deminishing returns and caps</p><p>Do that and all the classes should be better balanced</p><p> </p><p>Also on your extream no buff no debuffs for each.  That is not the point and you know it.  The point is one should excel and be better in one area that the other.  That creates difference and balance.  Defilers should debuff better and mystics buff better.  Both classes still get buffs and debuffs just one is better than the other.</p><p>To say well you should get 0 debuffs and we should get 0 buffs proves nothing nor balances anything.</p><p>Message Edited by Kyin on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Correct above.No one is saying Defilers should NOT buff at all, just as they are not saying that Mystics should not DEBUFF at all.What is being thought of, by many Mystics, is something along the lines of:Mystics and Defilers heal for equal amounts.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers buff 75% as well as Mystics.Mystics debuff 75% as well as Defilers.This is clearly not the case presently.  Not even close.As it stands right now:Defilers heal for more than Mystics.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers debuff at least as well, if not better, than Mystics.Defilers buff at least as well, if not better, than Mystics.That is the problem.  The solution is what we are working on.<div></div>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:<span><blockquote> </blockquote>You are ignoring the root of the problem:Defilers have more debuffs than Mystics do.  The only debuffs that Mystics beat defilers in are AE resist debuffing, and AE slows.  The AE slow is almost useless in a raid context, the mobs that arent directly being attacked by the MA are either mezzed or are being AEd and are dead before AE slow finishes casting.Defilers buff HPs better than Mystics do.  Arguments can be made that with bolster they are equal, but consider then that:   Defilers buff consistently for that ammount of hps with 3 buffs.  Once cast, there is no mana upkeep.   Mystics buff under defilers in a consistent sense and can only pull ahead in spurts with bolster at the cost of mana.  Mystics have to use 5 spells.If that were fixed we could accept the things below this point, but I'll continue for a sake of completeness.Defilers also get Defile, which gives them more damage options than mystics.Defilers direct heals heal for more.Defilers wraithform has hp regen, which is much more useful than the +str mystic bearform has.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><div>wow you are truely ignorant, our direct heals heal more, but have longer recast, and your direct add max hp.......</div><div> </div><div>our wraithform have hp regen but its for compensate for our heals costing HP to cast. a totally useless buff, at least u have a stats buff. ....</div><div> </div><div>lol the only debuffs u guys have over us is aoe resist and aoe slow? lol are you freaking kidding me? you guys have the best sta debuffs in the game. And you think AOE slow is useless in a raid? lol i wondering what kind of mobs your guild can kill with that kind of mentality . On zone like PPR, where the Adds hit just as hard as the name, you need mystic aoe slow in the worst way.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway....../sigh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Defilers used to be better than mystics in MT grp, and mystics are alot better outside of MT grp. Now with Bolster mystics can be as good or better in MT grp and defilers are still useless outside of MT grp. And you still crying like #$%#^% lol.</div><div> </div>

[Flor]

Yea, sorry for the confusion, this is what i was trying to point out.I wanted to point out that , coming from the description, it leads to the idea that mystics are the ones who would be the better buffers, when in practice is not true.As Banditman and a few others above said, this wouldve been the logical progresion of classes.<i>Mystics and Defilers heal for equal amounts.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers buff 75% as well as Mystics.Mystics debuff 75% as well as Defilers.</i>I will be honest with you. Ive been playing my mystic with proud. Been trying to be the best i can. When they announced the betrayal quest, i couldnt wait til they would anounce the day it will come out.Then i saw bloster...for a few days...and i said, ok, this changes my mind, ill stick with my [Removed for Content] mystic, so what if i- dont have HP regen,- dont have a mana steal,- cant cure stun while stun,- cant dps for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn],- cant heal as good as defiler,- cant buff hp as good as defilers,List could go on.Then they nerfed Bloster. Well, guess what? Im giving up on mystic class. Seems this is the dev intentions, so here it is.Im changing to defiler as soon as the quest is in. And i bet you so will many, many many others.And when 80% of the shamans will be defilers, maybe, just maybe , the devs will take a good look at mystic class and see what they did wrong.Defilers, here i come!!!

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.</p><p>Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.</p><p>1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.</p><p>2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.</p><p>If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p>

[Sokolov]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.</p><p>Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.</p><p>1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.</p><p>2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.</p><p>If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.</p><hr></blockquote>Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?</span></div>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Florin wrote:........Then i saw bloster...for a few days...and i said, ok, this changes my mind, ill stick with my [Removed for Content] mystic, so what if i- dont have HP regen,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">OF course you dont have a hp regen, your heals dont cost you your life.  Do you realize that without a hp regen Defilers could literally heal themselves to death?</font>- dont have a mana steal,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">OK thats a given, but quite frankly the mana steal is quite small.  Im not sure why some choose to make a fuss over a losy low tic mana regen.  Besides has it occurred to you that our other spells may cost more power hence the mana steal to help balance things out?</font>- cant cure stun while stun,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">[Removed for Content]! Your joking now right?  VOA has been BROKEN since day one, it does NOT cure stun on most raid mobs where it matters.  Thats been posted several times all over these boards.</font>- cant dps for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn],</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Ditto.  Neither can Defilers.  Defile is the FIRST decent damage spell we ever got, but most of us would trade it for bolster or another debuff anyday</font>- cant heal as good as defiler,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">We are not better healers overall.</font>  <font color="#ffff00">With the Mystic AOE slows you dont have as much to heal anyway.  Our debuffs are single target which means when in a multiple mob encounter we are in a sticky situation.</font></p><p>- cant buff hp as good as defilers,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Yes you can buff other things tho like Stamina.  What they need to do is increase the stat caps.</font>List could go on.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">It really doesnt.</font>Then they nerfed Bloster. Well, guess what? Im giving up on mystic class. Seems this is the dev intentions, so here it is.Im changing to defiler as soon as the quest is in. And i bet you so will many, many many others.And when 80% of the shamans will be defilers, maybe, just maybe , the devs will take a good look at mystic class and see what they did wrong.Defilers, here i come!!!</p><p><font color="#ffff00">This was my sentiments exactly upon hearing about Bolster.  As far as I see this is a draw.  I do hope they increase stat caps though so you sta buffs go farther.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Peace out. Broom</font>

[Mystiq]

<div></div>I would really love to see Mystics and Defilers balanced against each other as well as Troubadors and Dirges are. If you take a look at what each bard can <a target="_blank" href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScoutBuffs.gif">buff</a> and <a target="_blank" href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScoutDebuffs.gif">debuff</a>, they are as seperate as church and state for the most part. Bards aren't even good or evil, they're neutral yet very distinct. This kind of balance among priests will likely never happen, because when you take a look at priest <a target="_blank" href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestBuffs.gif">buffs</a> and <a target="_blank" href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestDebuffs.gif">debuffs</a>, there is tons of overlapping, and often times a clear advantage is displayed by one over the other, reducing the value of the lesser class.<div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><div>Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Funny, thats what I was thinking about the hysteria over Defile/Bolster on the Defiler forum.</p><p>Whats the matter Sokolov, scared Defilers are gunna lose their position as king of the kids?</p>

[tebion]

less drama (from both sides, calling us kindergarten after the whinetirades about bolster is funny though) and more disucssion please...and just a note to broomhilda: not only defilers were bugged for 9 months, mystics were on the exact same boat, there is no real merit in using this argument against us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Pingu_cfc]

<div></div>Anyone think they should make bolster raid wide ?? That'd make me ever so slightly happier.(and posibly oberon barrier?)Just a thought.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pingu_cfc on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:08 AM</span></p>

[Sokolov]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>tebion wrote:less drama (from both sides, calling us kindergarten after the whinetirades about bolster is funny though) and more disucssion please...and just a note to broomhilda: not only defilers were bugged for 9 months, mystics were on the exact same boat, there is no real merit in using this argument against us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>I really wasn't calling anyone specifically kindergarten, just the general atmosphere that has been created.</span></div>

[Banditman]

Then please leave the MYSTIC forums to MYSTICS.You don't see us mass invading the Defiler forums when things don't go our way do you?  No, I thought not.Thank you for your cooperation.<div></div>

[Azeda]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.</p><p>Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.</p><p>1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.</p><p>2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.</p><p>If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.</p><hr></blockquote>Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Who stole my cookies?  I'm telling.</span><div></div>

[Vincenzo]

Actually haveing a healthy discussion about class balance never hurt anyone, especially as our classes are so closely linked.Apologies to those Mystics out there who feel like I am "invading" their turf...Am I even allowed to read these forums? Or am I an evil [Removed for Content] for even daring to look at the Mystic class?Nadir, Defiler of SplitpawEDIT: I would like to see the class descriptions changed to better reflect the classes. The descriptions make it sound like Defiler is a total debuffer and Mystic is a total buffer. But those descriptions were no doubt written by someone in a PR team who has never even played the game /sigh.<p>Message Edited by Vincenzo on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:51 AM</span></p>

[Eepop]

Reading is fine, commenting with the intent to help is fine...but when a defiler comes here only to oppose the ideas presented here, without firsthand knowledge of the mystic class, its not helpful to anyone.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote><span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><div>wow you are truely ignorant, our direct heals heal more, but have longer recast, and your direct add max hp.......</div><div> </div><div>our wraithform have hp regen but its for compensate for our heals costing HP to cast. a totally useless buff, at least u have a stats buff. ....</div><div> </div><div>lol the only debuffs u guys have over us is aoe resist and aoe slow? lol are you freaking kidding me? you guys have the best sta debuffs in the game. And you think AOE slow is useless in a raid? lol i wondering what kind of mobs your guild can kill with that kind of mentality . On zone like PPR, where the Adds hit just as hard as the name, you need mystic aoe slow in the worst way.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway....../sigh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Defilers used to be better than mystics in MT grp, and mystics are alot better outside of MT grp. Now with Bolster mystics can be as good or better in MT grp and defilers are still useless outside of MT grp. And you still crying like #$%#^% lol.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>I very agree with the above facts.  I think mystics, in general, have been misinformed about their class by a few outspoken mystic leaders, and too often wallow in self-pity about this misinformation when it just ain't the case.</p><p>The fact is, that guilds can benefit from having more than one mystic more than they can from having more than one defiler.  No raid really needs more than one defiler, because NOTHING we have except for our single target ward and 2 heals can be cast out of group.  Stuck in a non-MT group in a "patch healer" position, defilers are next to useless except for casting heal spells on the MT and casting single target debuffs on one mob.  So if there is already one defiler in the MT group, a second defiler is a waste of a raid slot, since with our long heals, we are about the worst choice in game for a backup or patch healer, a cleric, fury or mystic is a much better option for that choice.  In the MT group, I have no problem casting all my debuffs on the mob in between casting all my wards and heals on the group and MT.</p><p>So really, guilds don't need more than one defiler with good raid attendance.  Guilds can get better benefits from having multiple mystics, because many of your better spells, such as torpor, work out of group.  So a mystic in a patch healing raid position is a good choice, and makes good sense.</p><p>And why do mystics always focus their complaints on defiler HP buffs?  Mystics buff more power than defilers, that is a fact.  This is EQ2, not EQ.  Tanks also need power in this game.</p><p>With Bolster, Mystics and Defilers are now equally good choices for the MT group.  The problem is, Mystics are now a better choice if you want to carry a "backup shaman" for raids, because they make better backup healers than Defilers.  So I don't believe Mystics have any right to complain about much of anything at this time, because your greater versatility makes it better for guilds to recruit 2 Mystics instead of 2 Defilers.</p><p>You guys should really stop with the self pity and enjoy your class and unique benefits.</p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Then please leave the MYSTIC forums to MYSTICS.You don't see us mass invading the Defiler forums when things don't go our way do you?  No, I thought not.Thank you for your cooperation.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry dude, you spread your fertilizer here, and I'm gonna grow in it.

[Flor]

LOL!!I rest my case. You said it man....so yay, we are better BACKUP that the defilers are !!OMG, i am happy now.

[Banditman]

Once again Ixnay with rhetoric and no facts./ignored.next.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

<div></div>Anyone is allowed on any forum, whether we like it or not. Ideally, someone of a different class posting on another class's forum should be respectful of the "home" class's feelings, views and rightful bias towards their own class when discussing it. Needlessly arguing over semantics, language skills, and interpretation has slowed down several discussions in this board over the past 2 weeks and it needs to stop.To respond to the OP's concerns, I feel that it is valid to expect your class to echo the official descriptions of it, to a certain degree. The game has been out for a while now though, and there is ample information available about all of the classes to give anyone interested an idea of what they really are in practice. I created my Mystic the day the game was released, and many others here have been around since the beginning as well. If anyone has a right to be upset at how Mystics and even Defilers turned out to be, it's us. But I think this argument of scrutinizing over snippits and vague summations of the classes has run its course, and what should be focused on now is balance against other priests and against the game itself, in their current state.Shamans are the only classes that get to buff both HP and power with our target ally buff, which I think is kind of nice. But Clerics both buff the exact same HP. Druids both buff the exact same power. Yet Foretelling and Portent are not equal, hell the values aren't even distributed evenly among the hp and power given when you add both up, because Portent gives 75 more hp than Foretelling does power. It's only natural to wonder why this is, and I can only assume it is due to the massive amount of stamina that Mystics buff, which theoretically should even out the disparity. Stat caps just make this argument moot tho, and the results are unsatisfactorally erratic.What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this <i>would</i> be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.That idea just kinda occured to me so I haven't really thought about any various repercussions involved. Thoughts?<div></div>

[Banditman]

Yea Mystique, that's the mechanic we were talking about in another thread.The terminology we were using is that we think a potential solution would be to allow STA buffs to raise the cap.  I don't remember the exact thread name but I think it was started by Kyin.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div>What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this <i>would</i> be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Just as mystic STA buffs overlap with STA buffs of other classes, defiler debuffs overlap with the debuffs of other classes.</p><p>We hear much talk on these boards about the stat cap, and how a buff for any stat will be wasted once over the max.  From the mystic posts I've read, this seems to be your main complaint about your buffs, that you would like them to be pure HP buffs rather than STA buffs.</p><p>But what about the debuff cap, and what is it?  Surely there is a debuff cap, if you add up all the STR debuffs possible to land on a mob by any class, for example, anyone can see that if they all landed for the full amount and stacked, they would debuff the mob's STR far below zero.  But we know that a mob's STR cannot in fact be below zero, because a mob with zero STR couldn't hit, and probably shouldn't be able to even stand up lol.  The same is true with other defiler debuffs, every stat debuff we get overlaps with stat debuffs given to other classes, making them only marginally or partially useful at best.  And if all of the mob's stats were reduced to zero, the mob would just lay on its side, unable to hit or cast at all, and we know that isn't the case.  So defiler debuffs are only partially useful, and situational at best.</p><p>So should mystics get special buffs that stack with everything else, and are never conflicted or even partially unused based on a stat cap?  Oh wait, you do.  You got Bolster.   Congratulations on being able to do something that defilers cannot.  Perhaps defilers should start asking for debuffs that reduce stats on a mob in the same way that Bolster overrides the stat cap and increases stats and hp on the tank.  Then we could be equal to you.</p><p> </p>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Yea Mystique, that's the mechanic we were talking about in another thread.The terminology we were using is that we think a potential solution would be to allow STA buffs to raise the cap.  I don't remember the exact thread name but I think it was started by Kyin.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I guess that's what I'm really getting at lol. I was never good at summarizing.</span></div>

[Melio]

<div>So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?</div><div> </div><div>But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...</div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Melioid wrote:<div>So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?</div><div> </div><div>But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...</div><hr></blockquote><p>No, you twist my points.  I agree with you that mystics are better backup healers than defilers, but your conclusion is not reasonably drawn from what I wrote.</p><p>Mystics are an equally good choice for the MT group, and a better choice now in many situations.  With one defiler on a raid, but with the mystic in the MT slot, defilers are also still useful and valuable at the raid, because we can still patch heal and single target debuff the main raid mob.  But more than one defiler at the raid is a waste of a raid slot.  One defiler, whether in the MT group or in a secondary group, can cast all the debuffs needed on the raid mob, there is no reason or any use for having two.  Mystics, on the other hand, are a good choice in EITHER the MT group or in a secondary raid slot as a backup healer, due to your superior versatility and healing abilities.  You can cast torpor and other spells out of group.  Defiler's have no such capability.   So my point is simple, a guild trying to run a lean roster and do 24 person raids each day is best off with two mystics on the roster, but only one defiler.</p><p>Your class is more versatile, and thus more in demand, and it should therefore be easier for mysticsl to get into raiding guilds in the first place, because a larger number are needed compared to defilers.</p><p>So why are you complaining again? </p>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div>What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this <i>would</i> be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Just as mystic STA buffs overlap with STA buffs of other classes, defiler debuffs overlap with the debuffs of other classes.</p><p>We hear much talk on these boards about the stat cap, and how a buff for any stat will be wasted once over the max.  From the mystic posts I've read, this seems to be your main complaint about your buffs, that you would like them to be pure HP buffs rather than STA buffs.</p><p>But what about the debuff cap, and what is it?  Surely there is a debuff cap, if you add up all the STR debuffs possible to land on a mob by any class, for example, anyone can see that if they all landed for the full amount and stacked, they would debuff the mob's STR far below zero.  But we know that a mob's STR cannot in fact be below zero, because a mob with zero STR couldn't hit, and probably shouldn't be able to even stand up lol.  The same is true with other defiler debuffs, every stat debuff we get overlaps with stat debuffs given to other classes, making them only marginally or partially useful at best.  And if all of the mob's stats were reduced to zero, the mob would just lay on its side, unable to hit or cast at all, and we know that isn't the case.  So defiler debuffs are only partially useful, and situational at best.</p><p>So should mystics get special buffs that stack with everything else, and are never conflicted or even partially unused based on a stat cap?  Oh wait, you do.  You got Bolster.   Congratulations on being able to do something that defilers cannot.  Perhaps defilers should start asking for debuffs that reduce stats on a mob in the same way that Bolster overrides the stat cap and increases stats and hp on the tank.  Then we could be equal to you.</p><hr></blockquote>First of all, I never said that we or any class should get buffs that always ignore the stat cap. My point is that buffs (and even debuffs if you want to bring them into the discussion) could be changed so that placement order becomes a factor in how effective they work. Get the biggest ones on, with a chance for a bonus over-cap benefit.Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70. Buff any stat that has a secondary effect (like sta and wis) and you will see ZERO change beyond that, unless you're buffing a ridiculous amount (like 400+). Buff someone with Bolster whose stats weren't capped before but become capped with it, and it's no different than with any other buff - significantly diminished returns after 510 to the point of no visible benefit.</span></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><p>Ixnay...  NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU</p><p>Your arguments are so biased about YOU keeping YOUR class more powerful its not even funny.</p><p>Ixnay ethay ostpay</p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span>Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I had been misinformed on that point then, thank you for correcting it.

[MilkToa]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:I thought mystics being the good side should buff HP ( life ) more and power less while defilers , evil side, should focus on power.Yet is not like this. Is there any logical explanation  for this?I thought mystics the good side should focus on the buffs and beneficial spells like that while defilers would focus more on debuffs and dps.It shouldnt be that defilers buff more HP than mystics. They should reverse it, give mystics more HP buffs and defilers more power buffs and this prolly would balance the classes a lil bit.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, how did you come to this conclusion? What makes health good and power evil since they're both buffs? All healers have to share a lot of functionality, otherwise there's no way all healing classes would be able to be the only healer in a group.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:26 PM</span></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span>Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70. Buff any stat that has a secondary effect (like sta and wis) and you will see ZERO change beyond that, unless you're buffing a ridiculous amount (like 400+). Buff someone with Bolster whose stats weren't capped before but become capped with it, and it's no different than with any other buff - significantly diminished returns after 510 to the point of no visible benefit.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Mystique is entirely correct, but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story Ixnay.</p><p>You accuse Mystics of misinforming their class and yet you dont even know how the stat cap works.</p><p>Next time you blunder into a topic with both guns blazing, try and make sure they arent pointed so squarely at your feet.</p><p> </p>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span>Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I had been misinformed on that point then, thank you for correcting it.<hr></blockquote>That's just rich <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. I don't think any of us need to hear any more assumptive </span><span>condescending from you with regards to who is and isn't misinformed. Any time you wanna open a dialogue in game to find out what Mystics really do and don't have, buff and don't buff, you send me a tell.</span></div>

[Swishwah]

<div></div><p>Ladies and Gents,</p><p>Firstly yes, I am a Defiler and I am on your boards.  I'm not here to create a stir just clear up a couple of misconceptions (and hopefully not [Removed for Content] you all off like a few of you have done on the Defiler boards to us).</p><p>I personally think that we are pretty evenly matched at present.  Many Defilers do not like and will not use the DPS skill Defile thanks to the fact that it will break mez and is therefore useless on a raid where there are a couple of mobs grouped with one main Named. </p><p>Heals: we actually heal for roughly the same amount.  Sure my heal max heals for around 1.7k hp but the recast timer on it is quite massive.  In total we are looking at over 15 seconds between each 'big heal' so whilst 1.7k hps sounds very nice, in practice out heals are pretty even.</p><p>Wards are the same.</p><p>Debuffs: I duo a lot (it's the only way I xp) so this is terribly important to me.  I personally find it a lot easier to duo a heroic mob with my partner than a group of heroics whilst my Mystic buddy finds it much easier to deal with a group.  For my mind, that makes us pretty similar/even there.</p><p>STA buffs: well here's a fun fact for you: a mystic actually gives our MT 30 extra HP than I do when he isn't at the cap for STA, ie he focuses on STR and AGI.  So again we are pretty even there.</p><p>The big difference between our classes is that you guys have bolster and we have defile.  ie you guys buff someone's stats and we do a little more DPS.  Sure you guys got nerfed and now defile works (apparently) how it was designed, but when you take it into account that bolster is just a nice buff you cast whenever it's up on your tank, and defile is situational, well who got the better of the two skills?  I can't and won't use defile in a raid, whereas bolster is a sweet skill, regardless of the reduction in stats, which will be very useful in any situation.</p><p>Honestly I am sick of hearing all the bleats and whinges about how screwed over BOTH classes are.  We are pretty even now, so lets start building a bridge and get over it.</p><p>To the OP:  Totally agree with you mate with respect to defining Defilers and Mystics as seperate subclasses.  I would love to see a little more specialisation come into this game, but unfortunately I believe it's too little too late.  Maybe we can suggest this for EQ3  :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Swishwah wrote:<div></div>Heals: we actually heal for roughly the same amount.  Sure my heal max heals for around 1.7k hp but the recast timer on it is quite massive.  In total we are looking at over 15 seconds between each 'big heal' so whilst 1.7k hps sounds very nice, in practice out heals are pretty even.<hr></blockquote>I had actually done a spreadsheet on Templar vs Mystic vs Fury heals some time ago.  What I noticed was that if all 3 classes chain healed (both small and large line), the total amount healed per second over time was actually very very close.  One might thik that there is a slight advantage in terms of "down time" for the slower healers like Templar and Defiler, as they have to cast less for the same heals, but this advantage is mitigated by the fact that the faster healers heal faster, which gives them more oppurtunities to weave a different spell in which do not overlap the recast timers of the heals.  Ultimately, the conclusion I came to was that the faster (and weaker) your heals are, the more you have to cast (duh) to cover the same damage, but it doesn't mean you spend more time casting (it's roughly equal).  Additionally, when graphed, the faster healers total amount healed over time was generally more often ahead than behind.  It looked something like if you drew 2 different sets of stairs, slower/powerful heals have higher risers, but longer treads, and faster/weaker healers have shorter risers, but shorter treads.  The slope of them all tho, were roughly equal.There is one thing that tilts the tables in the Defilers favor tho - and that is the fact that we supplement our heals with health.  Some cite this as a disadvantage, but if we ignore the health aspect (which is usually not noticeable in regular gameplay anyway), Defilers have the most efficient heals when speaking in terms of power used per health healed.</span><div></div>

[Shiss]

<div></div><p>Thats a great assumption on healing, but it assumes that ALL you are doing is chain healing to get the cast time benefit.</p><p>I am slowing, debuffing, tearing down stats, re-warding (we have the same cast time on wards if I remember correctly, if not please give me the cast and recast on our wards)</p><p>Point is, how often does that 1.5 Seconds extra cool down to cast again come into play on your big heal? ours takes 3 seconds to cast, yours takes 3 seconds to cast.</p><p>Sure if I am Spam healing for my life, I am probably on a raid.  but then again on a raid I am Spam warding and slowing so healing does come into play unless I am in a single group.</p><p>And there is also the Dot/power siphon.  Oh how I would LOVE to have any form of canni... at all... so the quoting how yeah your heals over time match up to what ours heal given a</p><p>graphics analysis.  You will 99% of the time never be in a situation where you have to heal over and over again in a group.  You will  be warding and group warding to keep your group up</p><p>and patch healing if you couldnt get your wards up quick enough to prevent the damage.  Of course this is just my point of view here.  Not speaking for everyone else, but I think I am not</p><p>too far off base.</p><p>But love the talking points in comparision.</p>

[Kyin]

<div></div><div></div><p>The recast time on your spells does nto play as big part as you thing.  As stated in Bandits post on heals defilers Heals at adept one heal more damage per sec. than a mystics heals at adept 3.</p><p>And on the above poster even if your spam healing because they heal more with such a small amount of time with there recast they end up having a much higher Hps so even then they out heal us.  The argument that sure we heal more but the longer between casts is defeated when you veiw that info.  The cast time doesnt offset it enough.  Do I want it to?  No I rather just see mystics brought up to the same healing level instead of taking defilers down.</p><p>So who heals better? recast time and all.... Defilers</p><p> </p><p>On topic of all stat buffs I think to make every class's buffs useful that stat buffs should not be effected by caps.  This allows for more control over what each class brings to the table.</p><p> </p><p>Debuffs,</p><p>There is a 50% slow and dps debuff cap.  Currently I have not been able to find a stat debuff cap as after getting a few classes together we took a caped out tank and debuffed him fully and all of the debuffs stacked (note i didnt use the same classes to do this)</p><p> </p><p>So debuffing stats seems to bring out the best debuffs sense the DPS and slow caps are easy to reach.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Kyin on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:48 AM</span></p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>Melioid wrote:<div>So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?</div><div> </div><div>But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...</div><hr></blockquote>classes like Templars, Guardians, Defilers have no business being out of MT grp, put us in any other grp and were nothing but useless deadweight. You on the other hand are alot better outside of MT grp than us. With buffs that benefit dps grp, awesome debuffs, AND torpor. Of course everything is fine if our postition in the MT grp is not question, its the ONLY thing that we can do well. But yeah what ever, let Mystics be better than Defilers in MT grp, then the Defiler class can be 100% useless. Yeehaa..........</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Kyin]

<div></div><p>is a templar ineffective in a non MT group? No. </p><p>Is a inq ineffective in a MT group?  No.</p><p>They both are great picks for the MT group though due to sanc. Temp is used more often, or prefered.  Both classes have great buffs that do there job 100%</p><p>Is a defiler ineffective outside of a MT group?  No, you do just fine doing the same thing mystics do.</p><p>Is a mystic ineffectice in a MT group?  No, we do a good job in a MT but our buffs are not as effective as a defilers.</p><p> </p><p>For group placement it shouldnt be this class has to be in a MT group or it sucks. or if this one is in a MT group it sucks.  For balance every class should be a viable pick.  Problem is it is not.</p><p>The main problem is not that your debuffs (tenrals) and circle require you to be in the MT group it is that your buffs are better for the MT group as well.  The buffs for a mystic should be just as effective if not better than a defilers buffs, the debuffs for a defiler should be (and are) better than a mystics. </p><p>The real problem is not that the buffs are not balanced, they are if IF the buffs were not effected by the caps.</p><p>Fact is they are and that makes defilers buffs better as there is currently no cap on HP buffs.</p><p>Healing is still inbalanced in fav. of the defiler</p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kyin wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>And on the above poster even if your spam healing because they heal more with such a small amount of time with there recast they end up having a much higher Hps so even then they out heal us.</p><hr></blockquote>My point was that this statement is a myth.  Given X time period, total potential healing by ALL healers are approximately equal.  In fact, with all healers spam healing, the faster healers actually have their total HP healed higher more often (average HP/sec is approximately equal tho).In any case, yea, the ability to cast other spells matter.  My analysis seemed to indicate to me tho there is no advantage here nor there.  In attempting to fit spells in between recasts, it is much easier to do so when the recast timers are lower than they are higher AND still maintain the same amount of HP healed (this may seem counter intuitive, but I did the calculations).  Of course, none of this takes into account wards and what the debuffs do, but it's hard to analyze everything at once, and that is why I built a limited model to look at heal efficiency vs cast times, as opposed to tackling the impossible task of looking at everything.Ultimately the difference for me is more of a style of play.  I know that as a Defiler I have to be pre-emptive and look further ahead than the next heal or ward.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kyin wrote:<div></div><p>Is a defiler ineffective outside of a MT group?  No, you do just fine doing the same thing mystics do.</p><hr></blockquote>I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.(I am still puzzled about this MT group thing... is being in the MT group the epitome of a healer's existence?  I just like killing stuff.)But i do agree tho that it would be nice and balanced if each class could be in the MT group as often as every other class.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.</span><hr></blockquote>Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?</span><span><blockquote><hr>Kyin wrote:So who heals better? recast time and all.... Defilers<hr></blockquote></span>You misread my post.  The one heal that was compared at differing qualities was biased in favor of a higher quality Mystic spell against a lower quality Defiler spell and the numbers bore that out.The other two heals were compared at equal quality levels and worked out roughly the same, within a few HPS of each other.</div>

[Kyin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Message Edited by Kyin on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:26 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Please go back and re-read the <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=12257">Heal Data</a> post.  Defiler and Mystic healing is in fact very close to equal.  Close enough that it's wasted effort trying to get them changed.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

I can understand the craze over being in the MT group. You feel important, like you're the best 1/4 of the people in the raid. But what it really boils down to, for high end raiding at least, is min/maxing so the MT lives and preferably doesn't run out of power. I was always in the MT group of my guild since day one of raiding, because we never had a Defiler with the play time or skill that I have, and because well almost everyone just put a Mystic in the MT group back then lol. It's where all the action is, and one can get comfortable there pretty easily, because it is very different from being in any other group. I don't, however, understand some rabid desire to remain in the MT group at all costs, because that is selfish, and a shameful way to feel about your class and its capabilities beyond a mere microcosm of gameplay.I eventually grew to dislike the MT shaman role however. Despite all this talk of how Mystics are supposed to be more buff oriented, I enjoy being able to debuff thoroughly more than frantically trying to keep the MT alive. I wouldn't heal anyone for the first full minute of a raid pull if I could get away with it. This is done more easily outside of the MT group, where I'd also have to Bolster, ward, patch heal AND debuff, all of which need to be cast almost simultaneously. So I can live outside the MT group, and I can live with Defilers being "better suited" for being in the MT group. It's not their fault, it's just the way their spells were designed (not specifically for the MT group, just within their own group as opposed to raid wide). Maybe this is an oversight and should be looked at. I think priests should have more raid-wide abilities as opposed to in-group only.Add to my last statement that I also feel more classes should be interchangable in the MT group. This can be done by making more spells non group exclusive (to uproot the existing status quo) and by separating the classes with more unique abilities (one buffs this, one buffs that) so that a decision can be made depending on each unique encounter for the best group makeup.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span><blockquote> </blockquote>That's just rich <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. I don't think any of us need to hear any more assumptive </span><span>condescending from you with regards to who is and isn't misinformed. Any time you wanna open a dialogue in game to find out what Mystics really do and don't have, buff and don't buff, you send me a tell.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Rich?  I'm well aware of how the stat cap works, a Mystic I respect told me that bolster boosted the stat cap, which I why I believed it did that.  But thanks for helping me understand that what it actually does is increase HP by the stated percentage, and boost stats as far as the stat cap.</p><p>At least I'm secure enough to admit when I've made a mistake.</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Ixnay wrote:</p><p>At least I'm secure enough to admit when I've made a mistake.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, no your not. You are actually trying to weasel out of it by blaming a "mystic you respect" for your mistake.</p><p>Well I'm glad theres a Mystic you respect, because you can be sure theres precious few who now respect you.</p><p>When you said we will be seeing more of you on this forum, you didn't say it would be for comic relief.</p><p>Keep up the good work.</p>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><p>Id just like to point out that those class descriptions were changed from the original ones (i don't know when but the originals went something like this.</p><p> </p><p>Mystic: by beseaching the good spirits you will bolster and bring aid to your allies.</p><p>Defiler: by subjugating and commanding the spirits you will enhance and shield your allies from harm.</p><p> </p><p>The OPs argument is therefore invalid for anyone with a shaman from the early days (I'm guessing it was sometime around DOF that it was changed)</p>

[Banditman]

When did this become a NWN forum?<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.</span><hr></blockquote>Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?</span><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>I was hoping you could tell me, since I am a Defiler, not a Mystic.  But if there aren't any, then you can tell me too and correct my misconception.  In any case, it's just something I remember reading on the forums here, I don't know who said it.  From your... "answer," I will presume there aren't any then.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:I can understand the craze over being in the MT group. You feel important, like you're the best 1/4 of the people in the raid. But what it really boils down to, for high end raiding at least, is min/maxing so the MT lives and preferably doesn't run out of power. I was always in the MT group of my guild since day one of raiding, because we never had a Defiler with the play time or skill that I have, and because well almost everyone just put a Mystic in the MT group back then lol. It's where all the action is, and one can get comfortable there pretty easily, because it is very different from being in any other group. I don't, however, understand some rabid desire to remain in the MT group at all costs, because that is selfish, and a shameful way to feel about your class and its capabilities beyond a mere microcosm of gameplay.I eventually grew to dislike the MT shaman role however. Despite all this talk of how Mystics are supposed to be more buff oriented, I enjoy being able to debuff thoroughly more than frantically trying to keep the MT alive. I wouldn't heal anyone for the first full minute of a raid pull if I could get away with it. This is done more easily outside of the MT group, where I'd also have to Bolster, ward, patch heal AND debuff, all of which need to be cast almost simultaneously. So I can live outside the MT group, and I can live with Defilers being "better suited" for being in the MT group. It's not their fault, it's just the way their spells were designed (not specifically for the MT group, just within their own group as opposed to raid wide). Maybe this is an oversight and should be looked at. I think priests should have more raid-wide abilities as opposed to in-group only.Add to my last statement that I also feel more classes should be interchangable in the MT group. This can be done by making more spells non group exclusive (to uproot the existing status quo) and by separating the classes with more unique abilities (one buffs this, one buffs that) so that a decision can be made depending on each unique encounter for the best group makeup.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I prefer debuffing too =DAnd yea, they did that with the tank classes, giving them each a buff that does a certain resistance type.  Altho in practice it seems most guilds just have one or two main tanks and the other fighter types rarely get to main tank unless it's a trivial encounter.</span><div></div>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.</span><hr></blockquote>Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?</span><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>I was hoping you could tell me, since I am a Defiler, not a Mystic.  But if there aren't any, then you can tell me too and correct my misconception.  In any case, it's just something I remember reading on the forums here, I don't know who said it.  From your... "answer," I will presume there aren't any then.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Torpor. That's it. We have one beneficial spell that's raid wide, and you have one debuff that can't be cast raidwide. Surely these two spells don't single-handedly seal our fate in raid position.</span></div>

[Quaan]

<div></div>My god, what a pack of whingers........

[thedu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quaan wrote:<div></div>My god, what a pack of whingers........<hr></blockquote>Whingers? Who? I would like to be a whing

[Banditman]

You CLEARLY aren't cool enough to be a whinger. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mystiq]

I never liked Winger....was always a Whitesnake fan myself.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Oh, so we're going there are we.  Goody.  I can play that game too.I'll call your Whitesnake and raise you a White Lion.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mystiq]

That White Lion dude had some issues with the English language (how exactly do you lahv someone?)I'll raise your White Lion with Firehouse!<div></div>

[Banditman]

Hmm . . . Firehouse . . . . ok . . . I'll go late era and somewhat obscure and raise you a Femme Fatale.<div></div>

[thedu]

You forgot WASP<div></div>

[Mystiq]

Yikes, canadian hair bands?Vixen would kick their arses any day!<div></div>

[TheRealMo]

<div></div>Poison rools ju all!'Talk Dirty To Me" is an anthem for the ages!!! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by TheRealMoon on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:20 PM</span></p>

[paisan]

<div></div>Cinderella!!

[Mystiq]

Paisan is after my own heart! Cinderella pwns!I got nothin....<div></div>

[Surly_Smurf]

<div>I knew it was all over for me the day I saw Metallica video's on VH1.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Besides, you're all wrong.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000"><strong>WARRANT!!!!         WOOOOOT!!!!!</strong></font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>We also would have accepted <font color="#0033ff"><strong>AC/DC</strong> </font>cos <font color="#ff0000"><strong>I've Got Big BAL</strong></font>....... er....yeah. Those.</div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><p>From today's LU21b update notes, now on Test:</p><div> </div><div><strong>Mystic changes:</strong>- Bolster can now be cast on raid members.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Grats on the upgrade <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p>From today's LU21b update notes, now on Test:</p><div> </div><div><strong>Mystic changes:</strong>- Bolster can now be cast on raid members.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Grats on losing your MT spot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Fixed.</span></div>

[Sokolov]

Well, it does mean that multiple Mystics in a raid can now theoritically keep a tank Bolstered permanently.  Doesn't mean much for individual Mystics, though, I'll admit.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Well, it does mean that multiple Mystics in a raid can now theoritically keep a tank Bolstered permanently.  Doesn't mean much for individual Mystics, though, I'll admit.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It makes mystics in general more desireable to raid guilds, which I think is a good thing.</p>

[Feanor Baugl]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Well, it does mean that multiple Mystics in a raid can now theoritically keep a tank Bolstered permanently.  Doesn't mean much for individual Mystics, though, I'll admit.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It makes mystics in general more desireable to raid guilds, which I think is a good thing.</p><hr></blockquote>I thought Mystics where desireable before this change? and  I wonder more desirable in comparision too what?</span></div>

[Mystiq]

<span><blockquote><hr>Feanor Bauglir wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Well, it does mean that multiple Mystics in a raid can now theoritically keep a tank Bolstered permanently.  Doesn't mean much for individual Mystics, though, I'll admit.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It makes mystics in general more desireable to raid guilds, which I think is a good thing.</p><hr></blockquote>I thought Mystics where desireable before this change? and  I wonder more desirable in comparision too what?</span></div><hr></blockquote></span>Mystics were never undesirable in raids, nor should they ever have been undesirable if the guild had half a brain. During the last 2 weeks' shaman discussions, Ixnay and several other vocal Defilers made sure to  point out how useful a Mystic is, even multiple Mystics, anywhere in a raid, of course except for in the MT group. That said, I'm not sure what the point of Ixnay's above statement was.What I'd like to know now is, is it still an "equal" choice between Mystics and Defilers as to who is best suited to the MT group with this change to Bolster?<div></div>

[Melio]

As it seems the Devs didn't think a lot about that change.Alternative A: keep the Tank bolstered permanentlyAlternative B: push the tanks HP to unknown heights by stacking BolsterIs alternative B possible? Did anyone try that with multiple mystics in one group? Does Bolster stack?

[Banditman]

Bolster, I'm sure, is classified as a buff.  As such, only the most powerful will take effect.Chain-Bolster is now a possibility, which speaks to the actual value of the spell.  Since it's now raid wide and can be on for an entire fight given the correct number of Mystics, the message we get is that the spell is only of marginal value.<div></div>

[Bo]

<div></div>if you are sick of the mystic vs defiler crap.  Please go to the top of your screen and send a pm to lockeye. He is the one who handles spells and there balanceing.   He refuses to answer pms or to respond to the forums.  So plz everyone send him a pm telling him what you think.

[Banditman]

Worst.Idea.Evar.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Bord wrote:<div></div>if you are sick of the mystic vs defiler crap.  Please go to the top of your screen and send a pm to lockeye. He is the one who handles spells and there balanceing.   He refuses to answer pms or to respond to the forums.  So plz everyone send him a pm telling him what you think.<hr></blockquote>And while you're at it, send your wish list to Santa Claus.</span></div>

[Bo]

<div></div><div>This is his job as a dev......? Spells and balanceing out these classes are his job.  All i see here are Mystics makeing posts and crying to each other.  He read my pms, that i can see.  Does he actualy read ever single reply on a topic?  I seriously doubt it.</div><p>Message Edited by Bord on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:15 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<span></span>Mystics were never undesirable in raids, nor should they ever have been undesirable if the guild had half a brain. During the last 2 weeks' shaman discussions, Ixnay and several other vocal Defilers made sure to  point out how useful a Mystic is, even multiple Mystics, anywhere in a raid, of course except for in the MT group. That said, I'm not sure what the point of Ixnay's above statement was.What I'd like to know now is, is it still an "equal" choice between Mystics and Defilers as to who is best suited to the MT group with this change to Bolster?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, how much unbuffed HP does your MT have?  Is it even possible for you to get him to the 510 stat cap without Spirit of the Mammoth?</p><p>I'm sorry, so how is my class more desireable in the MT group again?</p>

[Mystiq]

I have yet to see Noah's HP higher with me in the group than with our Defiler - I pay attention to these things.You and every other Defiler around here has expounded on your main tank group superiority over Mystics for weeks now in these discussions. The fact that you're trying some weak switcheroo here now doesn't hold much water.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:I have yet to see Noah's HP higher with me in the group than with our Defiler - I pay attention to these things.You and every other Defiler around here has expounded on your main tank group superiority over Mystics for weeks now in these discussions. The fact that you're trying some weak switcheroo here now doesn't hold much water.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I've never said that I or defilers in general are better in the MT group than mystics.

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Ixnay wrote:</blockquote><div></div><blockquote>I've never said that I or defilers in general are better in the MT group than mystics.<hr size="2" width="100%"><blockquote><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=11883&view=by_date_ascending&page=2" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=11883&view=by_date_ascending&page=2</a>....except to the extent this spell unfairly reduced the value of defilers in raiding guilds and would have negatively impacted my options and play at raids in the future.....unfairly promoting recruitment of mystics in raid guilds over defilers, and would have prevented any defiler from being in any MT group at almost any raid I can imagine.....Defilers like me were upset because your new spell was going to have a significant negative impact on our future game play, and this was extremely obvious to many other classes besides defilers.  I feel that the compromise reached is fair, and like I said, that neither subclass has any advantage over the other at this point.</blockquote></blockquote><hr></blockquote>You didn't use the exact words, but the feelings were there;</span><div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<span>You didn't use the exact words, but the feelings were there;</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Nope.  All I said was that I didn't want mystics to get a clear and obvious advantage over defilers.  I never, ever said I wanted defilers to be better in any way.</p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:I have yet to see Noah's HP higher with me in the group than with our Defiler - I pay attention to these things.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't believe you are correct about this. </p><p>Want to prove me wrong?</p><p>Post a screen shot showing his inspect screen with your best defiler grouped and buffing him with Master 1 Portent, Rapacity, and Malevolent Efflux (everything we have affecting tank hp).  Then post a screen shot showing his inspect screen with you grouped and buffing him with your Spirit of the Mammoth buff and all other buffs you use in MT group and on the MT.</p><p>Please just make sure all things are exactly equal between the two screen shots, except for a defiler with master spells grouped in one, and you grouped in the other.  Please don't be grouped with a necro for their sta buff also, because you don't normally use one in your MT group.  Either post your proof with just the two of you grouped in each case, or with a full group, not including necro, and just with you and the defiler switched out, no other differences.</p><p>I believe your screenshots will show that the total HP you can buff (66 sta x 5 hp per sta you buff with Mammoth, plus your other buffs) will equal, be just about the same as, or will actually exceed what the defiler can buff.  And this is because at level 70, even the best tank on your server can barely hit the 510 STA cap at level 70.</p><p>But if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, I just don't believe I am.</p><p>C'mon, let's settle this dispute for once and for all.</p><p>Prove it.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Mystiq]

I don't have to prove anything to you. You change your story to match whatever way the wind is blowing. You obviously believed Defilers were a superior choice over Mystics in the MT group, because that's why you made one, so don't come here and try to convince anyone that you think we're equal, or even that you want us to be. Other people obviously realized the advantage of having a Defiler over a Mystic in the MT group as well - or did hundreds of guilds throw one in their just cuz they're all cool cats? Yeah, it's just your sparkling personality that gets you your spot over an equally equipped Mystic, huh?<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:Yeah, it's just your sparkling personality that gets you your spot over an equally equipped Mystic, huh?<div></div><hr></blockquote>No, its skill, experience, and consistent raid attendance.</div>

[Flor]

<span>And this is because at level 70, even the best tank on your server can barely hit the 510 STA cap at level 70.You are kidding,right? Im duoing a zerker , mystic + zerker = 550 stamina, no food, no potions.Ill post you [Removed for Content] later, servers are down right now.</span>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><p>I don't have screenshots, but let me try some primary school math instead.....</p><p>Defilers buff direct hps around 900 more than Mystic. Portent > Foretelling ~ 300, Rapacity > (Mammoth - Stamina) ~600, Umbral Liturgy = Carrion Bulwark</p><p>900/5 = 180</p><p>Can a Mystic buff 180 stamina?</p><p>No. 76 from master Ancient Avatar and about 70 from Mammoth (only know adept 3 which is 65).</p><p>Is the MT in a raiding guild likely to have stamina even 140 below the cap?</p><p>No.</p><p>Does one point of Stamina even increase hps by 5 when its close to the cap?</p><p>No. About 4.4</p><p>Do I, as another group member, get around 600 hps equivalent to rapacity?</p><p>No, I personally get less than 300 hps from Mammoth even if I am the only stamina buffer in the group.</p><p>Ixnay, you continue to outdo yourself.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:41 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Captain Rhetoric is not bound by the laws of data, facts or even primary school math.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I don't have screenshots, but let me try some primary school math instead.....</p><p>Defilers buff direct hps around 900 more than Mystic. Portent > Foretelling ~ 300, Rapacity > (Mammoth - Stamina) ~600, Umbral Liturgy = Carrion Bulwark</p><p>900/5 = 180</p><p>Can a Mystic buff 180 stamina?</p><p>No. 76 from master Ancient Avatar and about 70 from Mammoth (only know adept 3 which is 65).</p><p>Is the MT in a raiding guild likely to have stamina even 140 below the cap?</p><p>No.</p><p>Does one point of Stamina even increase hps by 5 when its close to the cap?</p><p>No. About 4.4</p><p>Do I, as another group member, get around 600 hps equivalent to rapacity?</p><p>No, I personally get less than 300 hps from Mammoth even if I am the only stamina buffer in the group.</p><p>Ixnay, you continue to outdo yourself.</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>This is why I asked for screenshots, so we can deal with truth and facts rather than your emotional reactions and misinformed opinions.</p><p>First, here is the screenshot showing the HP I buff.  I've never been able to find a copy of Master 1 Rapacity on my server at any price, so I use AD3 instead:</p><p><img src="http://www.solisearch.net/ims/pic.php?u=44598f2SY&i=273572"></p><p>Rather than use your "mystic math", I'll use the actual numbers.</p><p>1.  As you can determine using your own calculator, I can buff a tank's health by exactly 1867 HP. </p><p>3.  Your Foretelling Master 1 buffs 738 health and 643 power.  That is 226 health less, but 151 power MORE than my Portent Master 1 buffs.</p><p>3.  Your Ancient Avatar Master 1 will buff 76 STA.  Your Ad3 Spirit of the Mammoth will buff 66 STA.  Those two buffs add up to 142 STA.</p><p>4.  Your Ancient Avatar buff adds AGI, defilers do not have an AGI buff.</p><p>5.  Regarding your comment above:</p><p>"Does one point of Stamina even increase hps by 5 when its close to the cap?</p><p>No. About 4.4</p><p>Do I, as another group member, get around 600 hps equivalent to rapacity?"</p><p>Do you think STA increases priest and fighter health by the same amount?  One point of STA increases fighter HP by 5 points.</p><p>6.  So your 142 STA from Ancient Avatar and Mammoth adds up to 710 HP.  That 710 HP, plus your 738 HP from Foretelling, adds up to 1448 HP that you buff total.</p><p>7.  So, it is true that I can buff a tanks health by only 419 HP more than you (1867 - 1448 = 419).  That is a nominal amount, based on a tank's total HP, and does not merit using a defiler over a mystic in any MT group, especially since you can buff more power and AGI than the defiler, and those are not junk stats on a tank.</p><p>But me get to the heart of your incorrect beliefs.  Above you stated:</p><p>"Is the MT in a raiding guild likely to have stamina even 140 below the cap?</p><p>No."</p><p>Wrong, Sherlock.  The stat cap is now 510.  This is a screenshot from last night of the best equipped tank on my server, buffed in a full MT group with me in the group:</p><p><img src="http://www.solisearch.net/ims/pic.php?u=44598f2SY&i=273573"></p><p>Note that STA and AGI are not capped.  His unbuffed STA is about 325.  He would fully utilize your STA buffs if he was grouped with you rather than me, and that STA would go directly to health.  And yes, there was a SK in this group with a STA buff on also, plus even a STA potion.  And if he was grouped with a mystic rather than a defiler, he would get about ~3 more avoidance from your AGI buff, which is a huge offsetting benefit that mystics bring to a MT group.</p><p>The fact is, the best equipped tanks in EQ2 right now have unbuffed STA of about 325 or less.  Don't believe me?  Look at what I presume is the best equipped tank on Perma, who is Mystique's guild leader:  <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=202539202" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=202539202</a> .  His unbuffed sta shows at 317 on eq2players.com.</p><p>So please, stop crying about our 419 HP difference.  It is nominal, and your character has equal or greater other benefits.  I wish SoE would just give you the 419 HP, and take away your extra power and AGI, so I could stop hearing you whine that you cannot compete with my class.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:15 AM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Captain Rhetoric is not bound by the laws of data, facts or even primary school math.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Calling me "Captain Rhetoric", in a one liner that doesn't substantiate anything or include any facts, is simply priceless.</p><p>You sir, are Captain Kirk of the Starship Rhetoric.  It is primarily you, and your whining and skewed comparisons of partial information, that has mislead mystics and caused them to be unhappy and believe they are victimized.</p><p>Do you even raid?  I mean, current content?</p>

[Shiss]

<div></div><p>Ok Ixnay... let me give you a GROUP not just a unbuffed tank sheesh...</p><p>Here is a good solid MT group we have used.</p><p>Guardian, Fury, Inquisitor, Necro, Troubadour, Defiler.</p><p>Lets see:</p><p>Guardian Self Buff +52 STA</p><p>Fury - nothing</p><p>Inquiistor Buff - +59 STA</p><p>Necro Buff +67 STA</p><p>Troubadour Buff: +65 STA</p><p>Defiler - nothing</p><p>(Note these are MASTER 1 ratings and could take a few points off But)</p><p>So the Total Added Stamina is (( DRUM ROLL)) 243 Stamina?? which is OMG.... 560 on your best tank which OMG is 50 over the freaking cap.</p><p>So Again give me your little Oh Oh we are sooo equal.  and on Foretelling the power and health are backwards its 643 Health, 738 Power Ixnay.</p><p>Don't go off on your little rant with a single person and say look look see how you are wrong when dear lord I could take out any one of those classes above and AGAIN I am wasting STA buffs because he is already over the cap without our +142 STA in buffs?</p><p>Your so off on your post it isnt even silly.  Sure if you got a pick up group with all the wrong classes that add zero Stamina at all ( I am sure we could make a group like that but it aint gonna be a main tank group my friend) you might be able to justify a Mystic, but alone the guardian with 317 STA unbuffed? they get a +52 Stamina buff by them selves?  so he is at 369 himself? Add a Mystic... POP, he is at the cap.  Dont add a single other class that adds stamina or it is totally pointless.</p><p>Please give it too me again Ixnay and show me how we have equal or greater benifits?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Banditman]

*I* have not "lead" Mystics anywhere.  I have made observations, collected data and otherwise tried to help this community be all it could.You on the other hand have done nothing but interject yourself into a discussion that DOES NOT CONCERN YOU on a forum which you have NO VESTED INTEREST.As people have been telling you, Stamina buffs are *FAR* from uncommon in the game.  Hitting the Stamina cap is far from difficult.  Perhaps if you raided you would know this.  You do raid right?When you try to respond with facts, you can't even get them strait.<div></div>

[Shiss]

<div></div><p>And let me add one more thing, this is without any food or potions that add additional STA on top of that.</p><p>You crack me up.</p>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<strong>You and every other Defiler around here has expounded on your main tank group superiority over Mystics for weeks now in these discussions.</strong> The fact that you're trying some weak switcheroo here now doesn't hold much water.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>OK, sorry but Now I'm getting [Removed for Content] off.  I said I wouldnt come back here unless to add something positive or correct misinformation.  Well Mystique your post is that misinformation.  "Every other Defiler" has NEVER said we are superior in the MT group over Mystics.  Ixnay, myself and several other Defilers have never talked such nonsense.  Check our posts here, on Defilers or anywhere else and you will see this is not the case.  You gotta bone to pick?  Go pick it with the two bragging defiler idiots that love to talk [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], (we all know who they are) and for the most part are ignored in the Defiler community as they are everywhere else.  Please do not insult the rest of us that have played this class throughout and know humility and are honest about our capabilities and limitations.</p><p>There are always variables involved in setting up the MT group.  Having a slight edge on HP DOES NOT make or break a raid encounter, stop being ridiculous people.  Agi, Power, stamina etc. can more than makeup/offset this slight edge.  Frankly I beleive due to the nature of the mystic spells you guys are far better ALL-around raiders, in or out of the MT group, so you have a clear advantage insofar as utility and usefulness is concerned.  That's my opinion and I know that has been expressed already by others so I'm being redundant.  Shoot me. </p>

[Shiss]

<div></div><p>Broom I appreciate your candor on this but it is more than a slight HP advantage.</p><p>Defilers can Buff HP by 1867 (Per Ixnay and some good images from EQ2 on your spells)</p><p>Mystics can Buff HP by 643 (Foretelling) Plus Stamina buffs (which I have never been in our MT group because he is always at his Max and my Stamina buffs add about 170hp.</p><p>So here we are you add 1867.... I myself only added 813... So 1054 HP isnt alot?? are you kidding me??  Would a Tank even HESITATE to pick you over me?</p><p>That is the reason there is always a Defiler in our MT group and always will be.  I understand that but please, if you are a defiler and are coming to a mystic forum, please please please</p><p>have your facts straight before you start talking about equality and such things.  I appreciate the debate but it needs to be straight forward when it comes to STA vs. HP buffs.  and with the</p><p>new Armor coming out that Adds even MORE Stats to the MT, more STR, more AGL more STA.  Our buffs mean less and less.  That is really what we are upset about more than anything I think.</p><p>My Honor,</p>

[Banditman]

<div></div>Agility doesn't hold much water anyway.  If Avatar adds more than 2% Avoidance I'd be shocked.Shissan, you left out our group HP buff, which like a Defiler (and all Priests for that matter), is 321 to all group members.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:57 PM</span></p>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Shissan wrote:<div></div><p>Broom I appreciate your candor on this but it is more than a slight HP advantage.</p><p>Defilers can Buff HP by 1867 (Per Ixnay and some good images from EQ2 on your spells)</p><p>Mystics can Buff HP by 643 (Foretelling) Plus Stamina buffs (which I have never been in our MT group because he is always at his Max and my Stamina buffs add about 170hp.</p><p>So here we are you add 1867.... I myself only added 813... So 1054 HP isnt alot?? are you kidding me??  Would a Tank even HESITATE to pick you over me?</p><p>That is the reason there is always a Defiler in our MT group and always will be.  I understand that but please, if you are a defiler and are coming to a mystic forum, please please please</p><p>have your facts straight before you start talking about equality and such things.  I appreciate the debate but it needs to be straight forward when it comes to STA vs. HP buffs.  and with the</p><p>new Armor coming out that Adds even MORE Stats to the MT, more STR, more AGL more STA.  Our buffs mean less and less.  That is really what we are upset about more than anything I think.</p><p>My Honor,</p><hr></blockquote><p>I beleive I do have my facts straight, Mystic forum or not, and the amount of our "advantage" is less than 1054, as has been pointed out by Banditman,  Defilers buff an additional 1000+ hp over Mystics?  This is news to me.  It appears your the one that  needs to get your facts correct.  Heres a suggestion: Instead of crying about a few hundred HP why not discuss having some stats raised?  Wouldnt that approach be more useful instead of: Accusing all Defilers of being boasters and braggerts and Claiming HP should belong to Mystics because your "good" and we should have power because we are "evil" .  Focus on what you CAN get improved instead of harping on us and using a few idiot defiler remarks as a coverup and excuse to abuse Defilers. </p><p>Good day to you.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Broomhilda on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:15 PM</span></p>

[Shiss]

<div></div><p>(nod) was leaving that out, because for arguement sake, it is a moot point, as we all get the same things, so that is a wash.</p><p>We are still over 1000 hp down on what a Defiler can buff HP wise to us.</p>

[Shiss]

<div></div><div>It is only 733 differnce then based the 321 that we also get ((sorry for leaving that one off as Banditman pointed out)) and I still stand by what I said, because if you are looking at the MT group you are trying to Maximize the HP.  Not your stats.  Thats all I ment.</div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shissan wrote:<div></div><p>Ok Ixnay... let me give you a GROUP not just a unbuffed tank sheesh...</p><p>Here is a good solid MT group we have used.</p><p>Guardian, Fury, Inquisitor, Necro, Troubadour, Defiler.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>This is the most ridiculous nonsense you could possibly contrive.  Nobody in their right mind would fashion a raid group like that.  All you did was pick each and every class (oh but sorry, you missed sk) with a STA buff and added those buffs together to try and come up with numeric proof that it is possible for the STA cap to be exceeded.</p><p>Yes, I will admit you could actually form a group like this, but you are either naiive or merely trolling if you believe any raid leader would actually form such a group as the mt group.  If you are telling me you've actually defeated mobs with such an mt group, sir, I ask you, what is the biggest named mob you have actually defeated with that group, when did you defeat it, and what levels were you at the time?</p><p>Yeah, I didn't think so.</p><p>I showed you above the screenshot of a fully buffed tank with more than 12k HP.  Have you ever even raided with a tank like that?  What do you mean, showing you screenshots of an unbuffed tank?  How is that tank unbuffed?</p><p>The fact is, that is exactly how this tank was buffed last night, about 30 seconds before we pulled and defeated Harla Dar.</p><p>The group included the following six players:  guardian, dirge, templar, fury, defiler, shadow knight.  This, with some deviation, is a typical MT group against a x4 raid mob.  You can swap out the fury with a warden, or a paladin for the SK, or a mystic for the defiler, but I'm not sure I know any raid leader who'd swap out the dirge for a troubador.  Most would put the troub in the dps group.</p><p>Other classes with STA buffs, such as troubadours and necros, could group with a guardian and, combined with a mystic, put that guardian's STA over the stat cap.  But that doesn't mean that any raid leader would put together a group like that or attempt to defeat a raid mob with that configuration. </p><p>The fact is, the classes in the group I mention above have benefits that exceed the value of HP buffs.</p><p>So in an optimal raid group that someone would actually form to defeat a real T7 x4 encounter, this is much likely to be the situation regarding STA on the guardian:</p><p>Guardian, 315 unbuffed sta + SK ~50 STA (the STA buff from the previous tier was Unholy Strength, and it buffed 36 STA at Adept 3) + Guardian 70 STA from Ad3 Fortified Conviction (don't have the exact number, but 70 is a generous estimate) = 435 STA, fully buffed and ready to fight a raid mob.</p><p>Forget about STA potions.  There are no T7 STA potions.  Trust me on this, I'm a level 70 alchemist and this is my main area of expertise in EQ2.  Nobody would use an old T6 Gaiges Absolution potion over the new T7 raw HP potions, because they don't stack, and the new T7 potion buffs more HP than the old sta potion.</p><p>So, there is plenty of headroom for mystic STA buffs in this group if a mystic is used instead of a defiler, and your STA buffs are going to provide HP and not be wasted.</p><p>Let's not forget about the additional power and AGI you buff over a defiler.  The AGI you buff equals an increase in tank avoidance of about 3 percent.  That extra 3 percent avoidance, alone, is more than the total ~400 hp that a defiler can buff, and in fact the extra avoidance is probably worth more.</p><p>I think you mystics seriously need to relax and just enjoy you class more.</p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shissan wrote:<div></div><div>if you are looking at the MT group you are trying to Maximize the HP.  Not your stats. </div><hr></blockquote>No, if you are looking to form a MT group to defeat a hard raid mob, you will optimize the group to best achieve that objective.  The optimal strategy does not involve solely maximizing HP.

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:*I* have not "lead" Mystics anywhere.  I have made observations, collected data and otherwise tried to help this community be all it could.You on the other hand have done nothing but interject yourself into a discussion that DOES NOT CONCERN YOU on a forum which you have NO VESTED INTEREST.As people have been telling you, Stamina buffs are *FAR* from uncommon in the game.  Hitting the Stamina cap is far from difficult.  Perhaps if you raided you would know this.  You do raid right?When you try to respond with facts, you can't even get them strait.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>STA is not as *common* as you have preached.  STA buffs from different classes are not used in the actual combinations you presume.  STA is a valid, meaningful stat that = HP in actual raid situations.</p><p>I never came into this forum until it became necessary for me to do that to correct your smack talking, whining and misinformation regarding my class, sir.  Most of your theories are based on your incorrect belief that there is a grave injustice in EQ2 today, and that injustice involves defilers being better than mystics.</p><p>It just ain't the case, man.  And you know I raid.  I'm not gonna sit here and type out what I've killed recently with my guild, but we raid everynight.</p><p>Rather than just respond with more of your rhetoric, please just answer my earlier question.  Do you raid on a shaman as your main character, sir, and if so, what tier do you raid?  What raid mobs have you recently defeated or attempted?  I don't believe anyone could hold your beliefs while raiding current content.  I don't believe you actually know what you are talking about at all.  I think you are just throwing together ideas that you haven't practiced and are creating a lot of needless unhappiness and hysteria.  I'm calling you out dude, put up, or shut up.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shissan wrote:<div></div><p>Ok Ixnay... let me give you a GROUP not just a unbuffed tank sheesh...</p><p>Here is a good solid MT group we have used.</p><p>Guardian, Fury, Inquisitor, Necro, Troubadour, Defiler.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>This is the most ridiculous nonsense you could possibly contrive.  Nobody in their right mind would fashion a raid group like that.  All you did was pick each and every class (oh but sorry, you missed sk) with a STA buff and added those buffs together to try and come up with numeric proof that it is possible for the STA cap to be exceeded.</p><p>Yes, I will admit you could actually form a group like this, but you are either naiive or merely trolling if you believe any raid leader would actually form such a group as the mt group.  If you are telling me you've actually defeated mobs with such an mt group, sir, I ask you, what is the biggest named mob you have actually defeated with that group, when did you defeat it, and what levels were you at the time?</p><hr></blockquote>Actually my guild does a similar scenario for MT group.  Usually having Conj instead Necro, but yes we have defeated a good amount of content and are getting more into T7 now.  When defiler is not around, and or is lower then Mystic, then we swap around. We are by no means *THE* best raid guild on the server, but I think we do a good job. You didn't actually posit what your guild's primary makeup is for Raiding so it's somewhat easy to dismiss. But, hey, I'm always willing to read and learn, and if you believe their is a better makeup then I would like to know it;</span><div></div>

[Pinkflo]

<div></div>[Removed for Content] r u talking about we both deisible in MT grp.. defiler gotta tendrals man..... mystic will never be in MT grp cuza that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].... why dont they make that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid wide. And also u say that the HP buff difference doesnt make that much difference in choosing or w/e? well it does seeing as that and tendrils only diff we have... mystics aint got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] better than defilers for buffing and mystic the defensive shaman which make no fing sence

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pinkfloyd wrote:<div></div>[Removed for Content] r u talking about we both deisible in MT grp.. defiler gotta tendrals man..... mystic will never be in MT grp cuza that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].... why dont they make that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid wide. And also u say that the HP buff difference doesnt make that much difference in choosing or w/e? well it does seeing as that and tendrils only diff we have... mystics aint got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] better than defilers for buffing and mystic the defensive shaman which make no fing sence<hr></blockquote>Wow, that was hard to read.Anyway, he's got a point, Tendrils is pretty r0x0rs (transtion for the l33t impaired: it is very good). =D</span><div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinkfloyd wrote:<div></div>[Removed for Content] r u talking about we both deisible in MT grp.. defiler gotta tendrals man..... mystic will never be in MT grp cuza that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].... why dont they make that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid wide. And also u say that the HP buff difference doesnt make that much difference in choosing or w/e? well it does seeing as that and tendrils only diff we have... mystics aint got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] better than defilers for buffing and mystic the defensive shaman which make no fing sence<hr></blockquote><p>Tendrils is a proc.  It's not always up.  It's not consistent or dependable, and is single target and only affects one mob at a time.  It is not like the mystic slow, which lands and slows the entire encounter at once.  </p><p>Think of this kind of like the shaman aoe prevention proc currently in the STR achievement line.  That has a chance to proc a short term buff each time your dog bites.  The buff proc is great, and better than what fury's and templars get for aoe prevention, for example, because theirs is more restrictive yet more dependable.  But you never know when the proc will be up, and it involves chance.</p><p>Tendrils slows for more because it is single target and can't be depended on, and that is the tradeoff for mystics getting a slow that (a) doesn't require the mystic to be in the MT group for the proc to go off on a mob, and (b) is more dependable, and can be cast at the beginning of an encounter, rather than waiting and hoping for it to proc and (c) can slow a multi-mob encounter, rather than just one mob at a time.</p><p>Again, Tendrils is equal, but different to what mystics get.  EQ2 is set up so our classes are different and each has some things that are better and worse than the other.  It's a big mistake to point to one thing like this and claim that it makes our class better.  It doesn't.  It just makes our classes different.</p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div>Again, Tendrils is equal, but different to what mystics get.  EQ2 is set up so our classes are different and each has some things that are better and worse than the other.  It's a big mistake to point to one thing like this and claim that it makes our class better.  It doesn't.  It just makes our classes different.<hr></blockquote>But it is a spell that should be considered in the Defiler's favor for those concerned with MT groups.</span><div></div>

[Pinkflo]

<div></div><div></div>Guess i dint type that right or sumthing. Im not comparing tendrals too nething that mystics have. Im saying that it is a huge thing that puts them in  the MT grp. It doent matter what the hell are slow does. Oh ya and it debuffs DPS too incase ya forgot. Tendrals is only a grp thing so they put defilers in there for that, the hp buffs, and better ticking pet. Im prtty dam sure it can proc on however many mobs it gets the % chance too do it on but w/e idk. Basicly im not talking about comparing are slows. Im talking about comparing the chance for a mystic or a defiler too be in MT grp<p>Message Edited by Pinkfloyd on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:24 PM</span></p>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p> EQ2 is set up so our classes are different and each has some things that are better and worse than the other.  It's a big mistake to point to one thing like this and claim that it makes our class better.  It doesn't.  It just makes our classes different.</p><hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content].Can we not say the same thing about Bolster pre-nerf?That is rich.</span></div>

[Mystiq]

Can you hear me now?Good.Hey Ixnay, what response comes out when I press this button?<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><p>I wouldn't know Mystique, because I can't hear you.</p><p>If that is intended as a joke, it's in pretty poor taste.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:51 PM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

Fine, tendrils just makes you different. And Abhorrence.AE slow makes my class different. That goes for Bolster too, in which case a buff that makes my class more distinct from yours should never have been ridiculously nerfed into marginality. But at the time, you sang a different song, and lots of your Defiler buddies sang along.<div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>I grouped with a lvl 66 guildie today (guard) who had 553 stamina with his and my buffs alone.</div><div> </div><div>Nevertheless, lets give ixnay his "minor" 400 hp advantage for the sake of debate.</div><div> </div><div>Question:</div><div> </div><div>What stage of T7 are we in currently? Beginning, middle or end?</div><div> </div><div>Clearly we are at the beginning, which means stat buffers are at their optimum. It only gets worse for stat buffs from here, as I'm sure we have all seen some ss of the statalicious gear out there waiting to be won.</div><div> </div><div>I found it very amusing to see Ixnay scoff in derision at my statement regarding tanks being less than 140 from the stamina cap, and as his evidence, he posts [Removed for Content] of a guardian who is a) still wearing plenty of T6 gear, and b) is already able to self buff to... wait for it.... less than 140 stamina from the stat cap. Doh!   Nice work there "sherlock".</div><div> </div><div>Guilds everywhere are starting to get raid numbers to lvl 70 now, so the lootfest is about to start in earnest.</div><div>That 400 hps difference is about to accelerate straight toward 900.</div><div> </div><div>Lets forget the inevitable Mystic buff decline for a moment and pretend that our buffs give "equal but different" nett results.</div><div> </div><div>Question: How many buffs do Mystics use to beat defilers 2 buffs?</div><div> </div><div>Answer: 4.  All of Ixnays "calculations" have included Avatar and of course in other discussions our 4th buff Bolster.</div><div>Thats right, we have to use twice as many buffs to get a marginally better result that is still subject to debate.</div><div> </div><div>So while we are using up our valuable spell slots with spells that are already or will soon be 50%,66% or 100% useless, just to break even with Defilers, what are they doing? Well apart from laughing all the way to the MT group, Ixnay is off on the Defiler forums telling them sshhhh! and asking them to stop bragging about how awesome their dps is so they can slip under the devs radar.</div><div> </div><div>Don't let Ixnay fool you for a moment folks. We got well hosed and the only thing he is interested in is finding ways to camouflage his advantage.</div><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:12 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Mystique and I messed around with this a little last night.In a normal group with only herself and Noah (L70 Guardian MT), Noah was able to cap his Stamina with ONLY Spirit of the Mammoth running from Mystique.  He's getting right at 5 HP per point of Stamina.  And this isn't a MT group, this is just a group training around Sanctum working on quests.Now, I fully admit that on a tank where every point of Stamina counted, the HP buffing difference between Defilers and Mystics is minor.  Almost as minor as the power buffing difference between Mystics and Defilers.  Which is the point I've tried to make in the Mystical Musings thread.If our Stamina buffs were allowed to push the cap up, and therefore take full effect, there would be no issue.  Defilers would buff a few more HP, Mystics a little more Power.Hopefully we can draw some Dev attention to that thread and get some of our outstanding issues addressed.  It wouldn't take much to make Mystics happy, and I hope that we can get there.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Question: How many buffs do Mystics use to beat defilers 2 buffs?</div><div> </div><div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></div></blockquote><p>I'm just going to stop right there, and ask you to page up or visit the previous page as appropriate, and look at the screenshots I posted of the three defiler buffs that affect HP in any way.  Note I said 3, not 2, and even posted the screenshots with exact numbers so you would have correct information to use against me.</p><p>Yet you can't even do that lol.</p><p>If you want your words to hold any credibility, please post accurate facts, sir, and back those up with screenshots or verifiable information at least.  I do not believe that your statement that "I grouped with a level 66 tank last nite, and with just me and him in the group, his STA was 553" is true.  I say, BS, sir.  As it stands now, your words don't convey anything except your emotional state.</p><p>If you could actually buff that tank's STA to 553, please post a screen shot showing that tank's inspect window, his eq2players.com profile, and then exactly what you allegedly had on him to get his STA that high.</p><p>Do those things, and Ill destroy your argument and show it for what it is - which is manure.  I don't believe you, and you are either making that up, or you had that tank grouped with a necro, inq, and troubador at the same time you had your buffs on him.</p><p>Edit, corrected based on poster below, yeah that was my mistype, I intended to say inquisitor not templar.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:22 AM</span></p>

[Shiss]

<div>Um you mean Inquisitor... Templars buff HP...</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:If our Stamina buffs were allowed to push the cap up, and therefore take full effect, there would be no issue.  Defilers would buff a few more HP, Mystics a little more Power.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I would have no problem with mystics being given HP buffs exactly equal to defiler HP buffs, because I can't be the only one who is sick of hearing this as your main reason for your ongoing crusade about why mystics should get benefits that would make them superior to defilers.</p><p>But there would be huge issues, and it would be easily manipulated, if stamina buffs were allowed to push the cap up.  That would be a very very bad idea.</p>

[NimSul]

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:If our Stamina buffs were allowed to push the cap up, and therefore take full effect, there would be no issue.  Defilers would buff a few more HP, Mystics a little more Power.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It makes no sence if the cap can be pushed by buffs, why have a cap in the first place then?</p><p>That being said, the cap's on everything and how stupidly low they are is proberly the single most game breaking thing in the raid scene, except the lack of raids themselves of cause. Most caps are so easy to reach that most people can hit one or more of them solo, which defeats the entire part of raids that is buffing. Removing caps in general would be the only right thing to do.</p>

[Banditman]

Really?  Care to elaborate or just make outlandish claims?It will affect NOTHING but the endgame.It will affect NOTHING except the exact situation that needs addressing.Defilers are already "manipulating" this very mechanic by buffing raw HP instead of Stamina.Mystique and I already debunked the theory that an endgame tank can't get to the Stamina cap.  Noah is less than 75 Stamina away from the cap already, before Mystique buffs with Mammoth / Avatar.  And he hasn't really itemized in T7 yet.So, once he has managed to hit the Stamina cap again, without a Mystic's Stamina buffs, he will in effect be using a Defiler to "push" the Stamina cap up for him by buffing raw HP instead.I'm sorry you can't understand that.<div></div>

[thedu]

It's probably been brought up, but I do also want to reiterate that Tanks can push their cap level's via AA's.  This will effect more than just Mystics and/or Defilers.PS: Ixnay, I never did get reply back on what makes the perfect raid MT group.<div></div>

[Banditman]

I didn't know that, which classes / abilities allow this ?<div></div>

[thedu]

<div></div>Partly it was assumption, partly from reading the Achievements board, and here's a thread on the Guardian forums<font color="#ff0033">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=33039But I must admit that I don't know for sure, and will have to validate it..Edit: I just reread the thread, and from what it says they do get put additional +points to Str, Sta, Agi, Wis, Int.  And, therefore with the right gear, can cap 1 or more stats prior to buffing.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:13 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

Ah, so it's basically just confirming that our Stamina buffs are already falling in value in T7.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Really?  Care to elaborate or just make outlandish claims?It will affect NOTHING but the endgame.It will affect NOTHING except the exact situation that needs addressing.Defilers are already "manipulating" this very mechanic by buffing raw HP instead of Stamina.Mystique and I already debunked the theory that an endgame tank can't get to the Stamina cap.  Noah is less than 75 Stamina away from the cap already, before Mystique buffs with Mammoth / Avatar.  And he hasn't really itemized in T7 yet.So, once he has managed to hit the Stamina cap again, without a Mystic's Stamina buffs, he will in effect be using a Defiler to "push" the Stamina cap up for him by buffing raw HP instead.I'm sorry you can't understand that.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, defilers are "manipulating" EQ2 by using the buffs we've been given, without doing anything more.</p><p>You haven't debunked anything sir.  All you've done is make a claim.  I'm telling you now, as I keep telling you, that I don't believe you unless you post exactly how you did that.  Please stop making wild, unsubstantiated claims.  Use facts and proof, and show me exactly what you did, and how much STA each of those things buffs, and how you got to the numbers you claim.  Until then, I consider you full of hot air.</p><p>You keep talking about the endgame, but I'll say again, I don't believe you actually play in the endgame or understand it.  Why do you continue trying to influence things that you don't have actual knowledge about, and that you aren't involved in?</p><p>To address your point, about why STA buffs are not and should not be allowed to increase the stat cap:</p><p>There are many many many different types of overlapping buffs and debuffs in this game that can be cast by various different classes and subclasses.</p><p>As has been explained in this post, mystics are not alone in being able to buff STA where the opposite subclass, defilers, cannot.  But mystics can buff STA, AGI, STR, and raw hp, defilers can buff only STR and raw hp.  Does that mean defilers are being cheated?  I don't think so, and has been explained in this post, both of our classes have some great individual benefits, and also some disadvantages compared to the other.</p><p>Same thing holds true with inquisitors, who can buff STA, and templars, who buff HP instead.</p><p>Troubadours buff STA, but dirges can only buff other stats, and nothing that goes to HP at all.</p><p>Necro's buff STA, and I have no clue what, if anything conjurors can buff.</p><p>I also don't know what the difference is between wizard and warlock buffs, except warlocks get a killer group resist buff that any shaman would kill for <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You see, mystics are not alone here.  Many of the subclasses have offsetting skills and abilities.  There is not a 1 to 1 valuation of equality between each and every skill and ability possessed by each and every subclass.  Each subclass has some things better, and some things worse, compared to its opposite subclass.</p><p>The game is balanced around parameters with maximum constraints, and alternate choice decisions that must be made with respect to which choices are best in a given situation.  If you take away the stat cap for STA, you can achieve a new best choice based on HP alone.  If EQ2 gives mystics HP instead of STA, every other class who currently has a STA buff will point here at the mystic board and demand the same deal.  And the net effect of either of those things - either an unlimited STA cap or all STA buffs being converted into HP buffs - would lead to unintended HP levels and strategies, based on choices being made for the sole purpose of maxing HP.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:11 PM</span></p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Ah, so it's basically just confirming that our Stamina buffs are already falling in value in T7.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I wouldn't go that far. The percentage of player's capable of actually acquiring the requisite gear and the right combo of AA is going to be slim. For certain, a good percentage will be capable achieving but I don't think our STAT buffing is the be all/end all of Mystics.</span><div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I didn't know that, which classes / abilities allow this ?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, dude, check out the shaman achievements, as well as those for any other class.  Start by logging into EQ2, and hit "L".  You will note that all of your new achievement abilities require you to first put points into one of the five different stats.  After you do that, you will increase that stat.</p><p>Are all tanks going to choose the STA line, and thus boost their STA through achievements?  No.  And if you actually read the link that was provided before jumping to the conclusion you just made, you would have seen that it says a tank has to equip a <strong><font color="#ffff33">BUCKLER</font></strong> to use most of the skills under the STA line.</p><p>Let me ask you:  Do you think any tank will actually make that choice?  Therefore, do you still believe that achievement points are going to increase tank STA?</p><p>I sure hope not.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:21 PM</span></p>

[thedu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I didn't know that, which classes / abilities allow this ?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, dude, check out the shaman achievements, as well as those for any other class.  Start by logging into EQ2, and hit "L".  You will note that all of your new achievement abilities require you to first put points into one of the five different stats.  After you do that, you will increase that stat.</p><p>Are all tanks going to choose the STA line, and thus boost their STA through achievements?  No.</p><p>I'm ready to debunk your next wild assumption any time you're ready.</p><hr></blockquote>Just because BM doesn't know about other's AA lines and actually says that, doesn't mean that he doesn't know about  Mystics and Defilers. *I* didn't know about others AA lines till now either and that's because I really don't play more than my Mystic.  You disparaged Mystique's group combo for MT in Raid, but still haven't provided *YOUR* group combo, even though I've asked for it twice now. Your statements are disengious and spurious.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:21 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<div></div><span>Just because BM doesn't know about other's AA lines and actually says that, doesn't mean that he doesn't know about  Mystics and Defilers. *I* didn't know about others AA lines till now either and that's because I really don't play more than my Mystic.  You disparaged Mystique's group combo for MT in Raid, but still haven't provided *YOUR* group combo, even though I've asked for it twice now. Your statements are disengious and spurious.</span><hr></blockquote><p>I didn't, and wouldn't, disparage Mystique's group combination at all, because she plays in a respected guild that can defeat current raid encounters.  I disparaged a different poster's alleged MT group combination, which included a necro and troubadour, among other classes.</p><p>If you read what I wrote in post # 104 above, you will see that I actually did give my group combo, but I'll quote it for you again:</p><p>"The group included the following six players:  guardian, dirge, templar, fury, defiler, shadow knight.  This, with some deviation, is a typical MT group against a x4 raid mob.  You can swap out the fury with a warden, or a paladin for the SK, or a mystic for the defiler"</p><p>In the screenshot I posted above, where I'm grouped with a tank who's HP exceeds 12k HP, that is exactly what the group combo was.</p><p>Did that answer your question?</p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p>I didn't, and wouldn't, disparage Mystique's group combination at all, because she plays in a respected guild that can defeat current raid encounters.  I disparaged a different poster's alleged MT group combination, which included a necro and troubadour, amongother classes.</p><p><font color="#ff0033">My bad, I thought it was Mystique.</font></p><p>If you read what I wrote in post # 104 above, you will see that I actually did give my group combo, but I'll quote it for you again:</p><p>"The group included the following six players:  guardian, dirge, templar, fury, defiler, shadow knight.  This, with some deviation, is a typical MT group against a x4 raid mob.  You can swap out the fury with a warden, or a paladin for the SK, or a mystic for the defiler"</p><p><font color="#ff0033">With the exclusion of the SK it's not all the different from the poster's group. </font></p><p>In the screenshot I posted above, where I'm grouped with a tank who's HP exceeds 12k HP, that is exactly what the group combo was.</p><p>Did that answer your question?</p><font color="#ff0033">Yes.</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I didn't know that, which classes / abilities allow this ?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>....And if you actually read the link that was provided before jumping to the conclusion you just made, you would have seen that it says a tank has to equip a <strong><font color="#ffff33">BUCKLER</font></strong> to use most of the skills under the STA line.</p><p>Let me ask you:  Do you think any tank will actually make that choice?  Therefore, do you still believe that achievement points are going to increase tank STA?</p><p>I sure hope not.</p><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote><font color="#ff0033"><u>SKILLs from the use of an item</u> are <u>different from the actual Stat increase</u> <b>as you should know also</b>.  The first 4 points of the Mystic Wis line increases WIS by +4 for each point. The next one, Ritual, allows you Heal for a percentage extra by equiping a symbol in the Secondary slot.Yes, tanks will choose it to raise their overall health pool -- that is to their benefit. And yes depending on the situation, i.e. raiding, possibly equip a buckler if that Skill is more beneficial in that situation.   Which is the case for most players who decide on what to equip for the most benefit dependent on the situation.Maybe you should re-read at as well.</font></span><div></div>

[Mystiq]

<div></div>OK since the EQ2 players site profiles are incredibly unreliable at displaying current and correct stats, here's a shot of Noah's inspect.<img src="http://h1.ripway.com/Eloora/EQ%20II/noahinspect.jpg">My bandwidth is gonna get smoked <span>:smileysad:</span>. Anyway, this is just with Noah self buffed, and with mammoth master 1 and ancient avatar adept 3 - even his sta food was gone. As you can see he totally smashed the soft cap and is well over the hard cap. He's even wearing FBSS (not his normal belt) and jboots cuz training thru sanctum is wicked fun! Noah hitting the sta cap is absolutely no challenge at all, even though he switches out gear frequently. Let the record show that the myth claiming even high end raiding tanks can't easily hit the sta cap is busted. If your MT isn't at or near the sta cap, I'm wondering what kind of gear he's been wearing.As banditman mentioned, last nite I was able to buff him to the hard cap even without Avatar, which gave no gain or loss on HP when cast and cancelled, although did still provide some power since he is str capped less often. When a unique buff such as Avatar no longer provides any benefit when cast, I'd consider that a problem. Something needs to happen to rectify this, though I'm not sure what.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<span><font color="#ff0033"><u>SKILLs from the use of an item</u> are <u>different from the actual Stat increase</u> <b>as you should know also</b>.  The first 4 points of the Mystic Wis line increases WIS by +4 for each point. The next one, Ritual, allows you Heal for a percentage extra by equiping a symbol in the Secondary slot.Yes, tanks will choose it to raise their overall health pool -- that is to their benefit. And yes depending on the situation, i.e. raiding, possibly equip a buckler if that Skill is more beneficial in that situation.   Which is the case for most players who decide on what to equip for the most benefit dependent on the situation.Maybe you should re-read at as well.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Show me a tank that is putting points into the buckler line.

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><span><font color="#ff0033"></font></span><div></div></blockquote>Show me a tank that is putting points into the buckler line.<hr></blockquote><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34689">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34689</a></span><div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<span><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34689">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34689</a></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok, you got me on that one.  This tank added an extra 16 STA to his base STA from achievement points.

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div>My bandwidth is gonna get smoked <span>:smileysad:</span>. Anyway, this is just with Noah self buffed, and with mammoth master 1 and ancient avatar adept 3 - even his sta food was gone. As you can see he totally smashed the soft cap and is well over the hard cap. He's even wearing FBSS (not his normal belt) and jboots cuz training thru sanctum is wicked fun! Noah hitting the sta cap is absolutely no challenge at all, even though he switches out gear frequently. Let the record show that the myth claiming even high end raiding tanks can't easily hit the sta cap is busted. If your MT isn't at or near the sta cap, I'm wondering what kind of gear he's been wearing.As banditman mentioned, last nite I was able to buff him to the hard cap even without Avatar, which gave no gain or loss on HP when cast and cancelled, although did still provide some power since he is str capped less often. When a unique buff such as Avatar no longer provides any benefit when cast, I'd consider that a problem. Something needs to happen to rectify this, though I'm not sure what.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Let's start with your tank.  Your screenshot shows Noah at 536 STA.  You are saying that this is with him just self buffed, and with mammoth master 1 and ancient avatar Adept 3 up.</p><p>His Fortified Conviction Adept 3 gives him 58 STA.  Your Ancient Avatar gives what, 66 STA, and Mammoth Master 1 gives 77?  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  But if I'm correct, that adds up to 201 STA tota from what you are saying he has on.</p><p>So his unbuffed STA is 335, and he is over the stat cap by only 26 STA.  That is hardly "smashing the stat cap."  And let the record show that your tank is wearing virtually full raid drops of T7 armor and gear in the screenshot you posted, so let there be no argument that his STA near the end of this expansion is going to dramatically exceed what it is now from his present gear.</p><p>It is clear from the icons in the screenshot you posted that he is wearing all T7 armor.  I assume this is all Relic you farmed by zoning in and out of Vyemms and killing the zone in mobs for drops before a lockout was recently implemented  to prevent that type of activity.  My guild decided not to do that, because we considered it an exploit, or if not an exploit, at least unsporting. </p><p>But you stated above that "If your MT isn't at or near the sta cap, I'm wondering what kind of gear he's been wearing".  Well I can tell you, and it is also obvious from the icons in the screen I posted.  My tank is in at least half T7 raid drops, which have dropped from x4 raid mobs we've killed this expansion.  I will agree with you that his base STA will also increase as he becomes fully equipped in T7, but as I've said before, the 26 to 50 STA that both he and your tank will then be able to exceed the STA cap by is nominal, not that big in the scope of things, and is not a major disadvantage for your class.  It definately does not make your mystics inferior to defilers in total.</p><p>Edit:  I have a level 70 provisioner.  You said he was out of food, which is shown in the screenshot.  But let's not forget that the drink item he shows equipped is giving him 11 STA also.  Exact information and facts, please.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:39 PM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Let's start with your tank.  Your screenshot shows Noah at 536 STA.  You are saying that this is with him just self buffed, and with mammoth master 1 and ancient avatar Adept 3 up.<p>His Fortified Conviction Adept 3 gives him 58 STA.  Your Ancient Avatar gives what, 66 STA, and Mammoth Master 1 gives 77?  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  But if I'm correct, that adds up to 201 STA tota from what you are saying he has on.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">Ancient Avatar gives 67 sta. Mammoth gives 75 str and sta. For it to be close to equal to Rapacity m1 it would need to buff about 133 sta using the 5 HP/sta model. But that only works on fighters! For me, Mammoth only gives me 259 HP at around a 3.5 HP/sta rate. For Mammoth to buff me as equally as Rapacity buffs you, it'd have to buff me at around 190 stamina. You don't want to know how much Mammoth would need to buff a mage to equal the raw HP of Rapacity. You see where this is going?</font></p><p>So his unbuffed STA is 335, and he is over the stat cap by only 26 STA.  That is hardly "smashing the stat cap."  And let the record show that your tank is wearing virtually full raid drops of T7 armor and gear in the screenshot you posted, so let there be no argument that his STA near the end of this expansion is going to dramatically exceed what it is now from his present gear.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">Sorry but a tank that is 20+ sta points over the hard cap with just his and my buffs is significant to me, whether you acknowledge it or not. I'm sure you would agree if you'd been playing a Mystic for the past 7+ mo<font color="#9966ff">nth</font></font><font color="#9966ff">s.</font></p><p>It is clear from the icons in the screenshot you posted that he is wearing all T7 armor.  I assume this is all Relic you farmed by zoning in and out of Vyemms and killing the zone in mobs for drops before a lockout was recently implemented  to prevent that type of activity.  My guild decided not to do that, because we considered it an exploit, or if not an exploit, at least unsporting.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">This discussion has nothing to do with the Lab saga or any opinions pertaining to it. You asked  for proof from various sources as to the ease of reaching the sta cap and here you have it. It may very well be that my example was wearing primarily T7 armor, but the stat cap doesn't fluctuate depending on how far you are or are not into an expansion, so this discussion is just as valid now as it would be 3 months from now.</font></p><p>But you stated above that "If your MT isn't at or near the sta cap, I'm wondering what kind of gear he's been wearing".  Well I can tell you, and it is also obvious from the icons in the screen I posted.  My tank is in at least half T7 raid drops, which have dropped from x4 raid mobs we've killed this expansion.  I will agree with you that his base STA will also increase as he becomes fully equipped in T7, but as I've said before, the 26 to 50 STA that both he and your tank will then be able to exceed the STA cap by is nominal, not that big in the scope of things, and is not a major disadvantage for your class.  It definately does not make your mystics inferior to defilers in total.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">Yeah, we're all becoming quite aware how trite you think our concerns and obvious data pointing to the disparity between our classes are. Nonetheless, I'm pretty confident in the fact that there is enough information here to prove the case in our favor.</font></p><p>Edit:  I have a level 70 provisioner.  You said he was out of food, which is shown in the screenshot.  But let's not forget that the drink item he shows equipped is giving him 11 STA also.  Exact information and facts, please.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:39 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:57 PM</span></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:57 PM</span></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Question: How many buffs do Mystics use to beat defilers 2 buffs?</div><div> </div><div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></div></blockquote><p>I'm just going to stop right there, and ask you to page up or visit the previous page as appropriate, and look at the screenshots I posted of the three defiler buffs that affect HP in any way.  Note I said 3, not 2, and even posted the screenshots with exact numbers so you would have correct information to use against me.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but does your ability to self combust ever reach an end?</p><p>I left out the buffs that share exactly the same hps because they are obviously redundant.</p><p>If you include them, the Mystic total buff number also increases by one to 5. Are you ever right about anything??.</p><p>So after making a complete fool of yourself (again),  you then have the nerve to call me an out and out liar when I correctly state the stamina of the Guardian who I was grouped with. So if you were wondering as to the sharp nature of my tone in this post, now you know why.</p><p>Do yourself a favour and just go away. You have gotten beyond a joke, and have become offensive.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:10 AM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>So after making a complete fool of yourself (again),  you then have the nerve to call me an out and out liar when I correctly state the stamina of the Guardian who I was grouped with. So if you were wondering as to the sharp nature of my tone in this post, now you know why.</p><p>Do yourself a favour and just go away. You have gotten beyond a joke, and have become offensive.</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>All you've done is make confusing and unintelligible posts, refused to provide actual data, made wild and inaccurate claims, and now resort to name calling.  I'm sorry for declining the opportunity, but I won't lower myself to your level.</p><p>One of your main points involved a claim that further on in this expansion, end game raid tanks would have higher STA than they do now, and thus your claims regarding STA would be more valid than they are currently.</p><p>Well, as Mystique just proved above with her screenshot of the best equipped tank on Permafrost, who is IN FULL T7 FABLED ARMOR TODAY (except the boots), that aint the case.  That tank in full T7 fabled armor is just slightly over the STA cap with full mystic buffs, and with the tanks self buffs, and Mystique has proven that he has the same amount of STA he would have in an average raid group that included a mystic.  So your point is invalid.  You are wrong.</p><p>I'm glad we were able to clear that up.</p><p> </p>

[Melio]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I believe your screenshots will show that the total HP you can buff (66 sta x 5 hp per sta you buff with Mammoth, plus your other buffs) will equal, be just about the same as, or will actually exceed what the defiler can buff. And this is because at level 70, even the best tank on your server can barely hit the 510 STA cap at level 70.But if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, I just don't believe I am.</blockquote><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote>as I've said before, the 26 to 50 STA that both he and your tank will then be able to exceed the STA cap by is nominal, not that big in the scope of things, and is not a major disadvantage for your class. It definately does not make your mystics inferior to defilers in total.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Wind has changed?<p>Message Edited by Melioid on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:41 PM</span></p>

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<p>All you've done is make confusing and unintelligible posts,  </p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm sorry if counting to 4 (buffs) is confusing to you, but why would it even surprise me that you try to worm your way out of such a blunder on your part. It's not like its the first time you have done it.</p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Ixnay wrote:</p><p> and now resort to name calling.  I'm sorry for declining the opportunity, but I won't lower myself to your level.</p><p>Ixnay wrote:Wrong, Sherlock. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Oops, looks like you already did.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p>Well, as Mystique just proved above with her screenshot of the best equipped tank on Permafrost, who is IN FULL T7 FABLED ARMOR TODAY (except the boots), that aint the case.  That tank in full T7 fabled armor is just slightly over the STA cap with full mystic buffs, and with the tanks self buffs, and Mystique has proven that he has the same amount of STA he would have in an average raid group that included a mystic.  So your point is invalid.  You are wrong. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Invalid? LOL. Put on vet boots instead of jboots, add a light lunch, and the stamina from Mammoth is completely wasted.</p><p>A Mystic cant even DUO with this tank and get the full benefit of hp buffs.</p><p>Add just one SK to the group and there goes most of the stamina from Avatar too. Don't even need to consider any of the other stamina buffers into the equation.</p><p>oh and btw</p><p><img src="http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1024/guard4jb.png"></p><p> </p><p>Normal gear for him, i did not ask him to change a thing, no food, no other stamina buffs except mine and his.</p><p>And just to rub it in: I haven't even picked up my adept 3 avatar yet, so its still adept 1 in this ss.</p>

[Banditman]

I am well aware of the fact that everyone can use AA's to increase their stats.  I was responding to what seemed to me a post that said "Tanks can push the stat CAP with AA's".I had not heard that there was ANY CLASS AA that allowed any stat CAP to be pushed up.As it turns out, there isn't.Do you realize you are making yourself look foolish here?Numerous examples here show that Tanks are SHATTERING the Stamina cap.  Not just by a little.  By a LOT.  There is at least one screenie here of a L66 tank with fairly standard gear WELL over the cap.  Not T7 Fabled gear.  Not a L70 tank.<div></div>

[Cyanrav]

<div></div><p>Well, now that we've got the raid thing all sorted out, and who's best for the MT group and etc. I wonder what the OTHER 80% of Mystics and Defilers have to say. Not everyone playing the Shaman classess raid. Fact, I would throw a guess out that the majority of us do NOT raid.</p><p>Soon, I'll have the time to get in and figure out what is going on from a NON raiding Mystic view. Hopefully, we can get the otehrs that don't raid to kick in too.</p><p>I raided in EQ1 for 5 years. Not interested in Raiding in EQ2 /shrug. I DO remember what it was like being borked in EQ1 though and raiding, so I do have some sympathy :0) for the stat discussions.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><p>oh and btw</p><p><img src="http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1024/guard4jb.png"></p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>You are claiming that a 66 tank with common gear has higher base STA than the best equipped guardian on permafrost who is fully equipped in T7 fabled gear.  I honestly don't think this is possible unless your tank is using a T6 sta potion, which no longer exist in T7, and soon won't exist in T6 either.  Either that or someone else was grouped with the tank shown in the screenshot.  If you want to PM me the tanks name so I can look at his equipment on eq2players.com, I would appreciate that.</p><p>But even if what you say is accurate, you are exceeding the stat cap by 43 points only.  That means you are materially utilizing your STA buffs, and the amount of unused STA is nominal at most.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Do you realize you are making yourself look foolish here?Numerous examples here show that Tanks are SHATTERING the Stamina cap.  Not just by a little.  By a LOT.  There is at least one screenie here of a L66 tank with fairly standard gear WELL over the cap.  Not T7 Fabled gear.  Not a L70 tank.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm looking foolish?  You are a non raiding shaman attempting to rebalance the end game by demanding an increase to the stat cap based solely on mystic buffs.</p><p>There is no "SHATTERING" here.  What has been shown by Mystique, which I believe, is that the best level 70 geared tank on Permafrost, who is in full T7 fabled gear, is a small amount over the STA cap with her master and Adept 3 buffs on the tank, and with the tank using his level 70 Adept 3 self buff.</p><p>This proves my point - that your STA buffs are being mostly utilized, and any amount you can actually buff over the cap is insignificant in the scope of things.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:16 AM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

<div></div>Ixnay you came here to try and prove that Mystic sta buffs give equal, about the same or more HP than a Defiler. Not only have we shown you that this is incorrect, we've shown you that it isn't even possible due to easily reached sta caps, which makes one or more of our buffs, in part or in whole, useless on a target. Do you even read? Here, let me turn it up for you...I DON'T WANT TO BE <b>MOSTLY</b> UTILIZED. DO YOU REALIZE HOW STUPID THAT SOUNDS? EXACTLY WHAT IS THE "SCOPE OF THINGS" THAT PERTAIN TO THIS DISCUSSION, AND WHY SHOULD WE BE SATISFIED WHEN 80% OF OUR STA BUFFS ARE USELESS IN RAID SITUATIONS, YET YOURS NEVER ARE? AND WHY DO YOU INSIST ON ARGUING OVER SEMANTICS, PICKING APART OUR CHOICE OF WORDS REGARDING HOW FAR WE CAN BUFF A TANK OVER THE CAP WHEN CLEARLY YOU'RE OFFERING ZERO DATA TO DISPROVE THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE FACTS?YOU DO REALIZE THAT OUR STR/STA BUFF AGAINST YOUR STR/HP BUFF ARE UNEQUAL ON AN UNCAPPED PLAYER FROM THE VERY START RIGHT? AND NOT JUST BY A LITTLE. I'LL ASSUME YOU "FORGOT".WHILE YOUR BUFF GIVES EVERYONE IN THE GROUP 666 HP REGARDLESS OF ANY CAP, MAMMOTH ONLY GIVES UNCAPPED FIGHTERS AROUND 375 HP. SCOUTS ONLY GET ABOUT 300. PRIESTS ONLY GET 262 HP, AND THE POOR MAGES ONLY REVEICE ABOUT 225 HP. SO NOT ONLY, IN YOUR OPINION, IS UP TO 441 MISSING HP INSIGNIFICANT TO YOU, BUT ANOTHER 200+ HP MISSING WHEN ANYONE IN THE GROUP IS CAPPED IS ALSO "NOMINAL". I'VE HEARD OF A TOUGH CROWD, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE YOU'LL NEVER BE SATISFIED UNTILL WE ALL JUST AGREE TO ACQUIESCE TO YOUR ALMIGHTY WORD JUST TO SILENCE THE MUMBLING OF YOU TALKING WITH YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH.YOU HAVE A LOT OF NERVE COMING HERE TELLING US TO BE HAPPY THAT HALF OF OUR BUFFS ARE USELESS IN THE END GAME.YOU ARE ALSO DISPLAYING A LOT OF CLASS CALLING MY COMRADES LIARS WHEN THEY PRESENT THE DATA YOU ASK FOR. NOBODY HERE HAS TO DOCTOR ANY INFORMATION WE PRESENT TO HELP OUR CASE, IT SIMPLY IS WHAT IT IS. TRYING TO DISCREDIT SOMEONE'S PROOF SIMPLY BASED ON THE FACT THAT A LEVEL 66 TANK HAS MORE STA IN ONE EXAMPLE THAN NOAH IS PRETTY LAME. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT NOAH IS IN ALMOST FULL T7 FABLED, IT'S NOT THE BEST GEAR IN THE GAME, AND IT'S NOT EVEN A MAX STA SETUP. ANY FIGHTER THAT RAIDS CAN REACH THE STA CAP, PERIOD, END OF STORY.IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT YOUR CLAIMS OF EQUALITY ARE INCORRECT AT THIS POINT, THERE IS REALLY NOTHING MORE WE CAN DO TO HELP YOU SEE.I swear it's like trying to teach algebra to a 2 year old...<div></div>

[wushupork]

<div></div><p>My mystic is nowhere near end-game, but even at the level I play at, it's easy to see the discrepancies, even versus uncapped STA. No matter what equipment, no matter what class, no matter what other buffs, there is <u>NO</u> limitation to how effective a raw HP buff will effect your target. You don't have to worry about what other buffs people can provide.</p><p>The only real benefit to capping out STA would allow your target to say use a STR food to help with power pool/melee dps instead of STA for HP. That's almost negligible but it's there.</p><p>As far as Ixnay- I cannot understand the almost blinding disregard to see the big picture. I can only assume that there is some serious insecurity issues if he can't grasp the idea that for one: there would be NO need for a cap if there was NO way to even get there, two: a good portion of the expansion high-end itemizaion afaik has *yet* to have been discovered, given that every upgrade that includes more STA on someone that is capped out will make NO improvement to them in a buffed state and will immediately make that STA buff even more inefficient if they're buffed to anywhere at our above the cap.</p><p>Raw HP will <em>always </em>be better than STA, unless they made the stamina stat do anything more than just add to HP pool (aka noxious resists would make ALOT of sense being tied to STA not WIS)</p><p>Anyway, back to lurking. :smileywink:</p><p> </p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div>YOU DO REALIZE THAT OUR STR/STA BUFF AGAINST YOUR STR/HP BUFF ARE UNEQUAL ON AN UNCAPPED PLAYER FROM THE VERY START RIGHT? AND NOT JUST BY A LITTLE. I'LL ASSUME YOU "FORGOT".WHILE YOUR BUFF GIVES EVERYONE IN THE GROUP 666 HP REGARDLESS OF ANY CAP, MAMMOTH ONLY GIVES UNCAPPED FIGHTERS AROUND 375 HP. SCOUTS ONLY GET ABOUT 300. PRIESTS ONLY GET 262 HP, AND THE POOR MAGES ONLY REVEICE ABOUT 225 HP. SO NOT ONLY, IN YOUR OPINION, IS UP TO 441 MISSING HP INSIGNIFICANT TO YOU, BUT ANOTHER 200+ HP MISSING WHEN ANYONE IN THE GROUP IS CAPPED IS ALSO "NOMINAL". I'VE HEARD OF A TOUGH CROWD, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE YOU'LL NEVER BE SATISFIED UNTILL WE ALL JUST AGREE TO ACQUIESCE TO YOUR ALMIGHTY WORD JUST TO SILENCE THE MUMBLING OF YOU TALKING WITH YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'll address the part of your post where you seem to be trying to make a point.</p><p>Yes, I understand that defilers can buff a tank a little higher than a mystic, and that's where this conversation started.  I said it was between 400 and 500 HP, and as you are saying above, it is between 600 and 700 HP, max total, for any situation involving a way that anyone would actually play EQ2.  I continue to say that amount is nominal, and that this game is not intended for every class to get the best of everything.  You also get AGI, and nobody here has made any kind of claim about a tanks AGI being maxed.</p><p>And let's not forget that you got Bolster.  With Bolster, for one fourth of the time, you can increase a tanks HP by about 4 times the difference of the higher amount a defiler can buff.  This is equality.  For all practical purposes, you can buff for an average of the same amount we can.</p><p>And please stop with the arguments that include STA food and drink.  Not having to use expensive stat food and drink to cap STA is a benefit mystics bring to a group because it represents cost savings over less expensive non-stat food that has the same health and power regen.  So don't claim  your STA buff is partially wasted because a tank could use +STA food.  It's the food STA that's wasted, not the STA in your buff.</p><p>Please find a different soap box, we're tired of this same old speech involving your STA buff victimization.  Better yet, preach it to templars and inquisitors, who have the same issue.  Our classes are different and not meant to be exactly the same.</p><p>If you want to see a difference in our classes that actually sucks, try casting my deagro buff with AE fear in a dungeon.  It defeats the purpose, because it often results in additional mobs.  Your ~11 second AE stun is a much better thought out and practical form of crowd control.</p><p>Just like your STA buffs can actually exceed the cap in actual game circumstances, defiler debuffs are also rarely used alone, without overlapping debuffs from other classes.  So there are often times where our debuffs are not fully utilized, because the combination of players at any raid using their debuffs on a mob will exceed the debuff cap, every time.  So basic spells for my class are also not fully utilized, just like yours.</p><p>As I've said repeatedly, I just wish they would make mystics and defilers buff exactly the same amount of HP, because this issue is obviously the most important issue in the game to you, at least according to how often it is repeated on this board.  You believe that this ~500 or so HP difference makes your class inferior to mine, in total.  I disagree.</p><p>You are wasting your time and effort if you think you can get the stat cap for STA increased to 100% utilize your buffs.  That will never happen.  That would be about as effective as me arguing that my debuffs should debuff an absolute amount of mob stats in every case, and that all similar stat debuffs cast by other classes should stack with mine.  If that happened, a mobs total stats would be reduced to zero, and I could kill it by hitting it in the auto attack mode and going afk, because it wouldn't be able to stand up, swing back at me, or cast spells, since it had zero stats.  Your time would be much better spent arguing for the STA in your buffs to be changed to raw HP instead.  Then I could argue that the fear should be taken out of my spells, and I should get stuns like yours.  But wait, our classes are supposed to be diferent, aren't they.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Noah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I didn't know that, which classes / abilities allow this ?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Are all tanks going to choose the STA line, and thus boost their STA through achievements?  No.  And if you actually read the link that was provided before jumping to the conclusion you just made, you would have seen that it says a tank has to equip a <strong><font color="#ffff33">BUCKLER</font></strong> to use most of the skills under the STA line.</p><hr></blockquote>Most "tanks" have a few extra points to use and usually will throw 3-5 into sta at the end.  This nets about 15-25 more sta if they are not capped already.

[Melio]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<blockquote>And please stop with the arguments that include STA food and drink. Not having to use expensive stat food and drink to cap STA is a benefit mystics bring to a group because it represents cost savings over less expensive non-stat food that has the same health and power regen. So don't claim your STA buff is partially wasted because a tank could use +STA food. It's the food STA that's wasted, not the STA in your buff.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Sorry, but that argument makes no sense...Just an example:Tank selfbuffed @400staMystics sta buffs (all adept 3): 133stamakes a total of 533 stawith sta food (e.g. 20sta food) => 553 sta, cap @510, 43 STA WASTEDsame situation with a defiler:Tank @400staDefiler hp buffs....sta food => 420 sta + raw hp buffsSo... sta food and defilers buffs have FULL EFFECT when grouped with defiler...C'mon Ixnay, explain that. I want to know how this example looks like in your world...<p>Message Edited by Melioid on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:41 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Melioid wrote:So... sta food and defilers buffs have FULL EFFECT when grouped with defiler...C'mon Ixnay, explain that. I want to know how this example looks like in your world...<hr></blockquote><p>To be fair, I concede that point.</p>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><div></div>uh what idiot would use stamina food/potions when they are at the cap for that stat. use another type of food/potion like say, i don't know, a raw hp food/pot? an agility food/pot?......... choose different configuration of mt group or something maybe too. nothing is set in stone you know<p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 PM</span></p>

[Noah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Docimodo wrote:<div></div><div></div>uh what idiot would use stamina food/potions when they are at the cap for that stat. use another type of food/potion like say, i don't know, a raw hp food/pot? an agility food/pot?......... choose different configuration of mt group or something maybe too. nothing is set in stone you know<p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Some people really dont give a crap and just buy whatever is on the broker.  11 sta/  agi... str... w/e it is - is not going to make a difference when getting hit for 3500s.</p>

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p>And let's not forget that you got Bolster.  With Bolster, for one fourth of the time, you can increase a tanks HP by about 4 times the difference of the higher amount a defiler can buff.  <strong>This is equality</strong>.  For all practical purposes, you can buff for an average of the same amount we can.</p><hr><p>Remember our little lesson in buff counting? (no doubt its one you would like to forget)</p><p>Your "equality" consists of Mystic casting 2 extra buffs to do the same job.</p><p>Memory like a goldfish.</p><p> </p><p> </p></blockquote>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Remember our little lesson in buff counting? (no doubt its one you would like to forget)</p><p>Your "equality" consists of Mystic casting 2 extra buffs to do the same job.</p><p>Memory like a goldfish.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>I'm going to be out of town till late next week, so we'll have to resume this discussion later.</p><p>In the meantime, I hope you feel better soon.</p>

[icetower]

<div></div><div>Noooo, please don't go.</div><div> </div><div>Who will make us look smarter than we actually are when your'e gone?</div>

[DaernLightfeath]

Let me understand this: Bolster, our signature spell, allows Mystics to buff as well as a Defiler? Not sure this is correct. I would think the main tank would not want his maximum health to vary that much during a raid.But in any case, if our class-defining spell simply brings us up to the buffing ability of Defilers (which is debatable), can we get a Mystic-version of Defile?<div></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I'm going to be out of town till late next week, so we'll have to resume this discussion later.</blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Hope you are getting your head checked out.</p><p> </p><p>Just a few quotes from the Defiler board for those that think im bein mean...</p><p> </p><div><hr></div><div>Ixnay wrote:</div><div> </div><div>SWEET!  In today's patch notes:</div><div> </div><div>- Defiler: Defile causes enemies near the defiler to receive greater damage as they become closer to death.- Mystic: Bolster had its percentages slightly lowered.</div><div> </div><div>I'm now satisfied and believe mystics and defilers again are equally desireable in raiding guilds and MT groups.</div><div> </div><div>I'm thrilled that they listened to us.</div><div> </div><div>THANK YOU SOE!</div><div><hr></div><div>Wow... happy about another class getting a nerf because it makes you better...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div>Ixnay wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Please nobody make bragging posts about Defile without fully explaining its facts and limitations.  It is PBAE.  You can only use it to get good damage when multiple mobs are present.  You have to time casting it so that it is expiring about the same time the mob is dying for maximum effect.  It has a 2 minute refresh, so it's not like you can spam this, in a chain pull group it can be used maybe one out of every 4 encounters. </div><p>Other classes are going to be complaining that we have this, let's not give them the ammunition.  Be honest about what it does, but also make sure you fully disclose the limitations of this spell.</p><p>Thanks</p><hr><p>IMO, Defile gives our class a powerful new ability.  I personally will use this new ability in every group and most raids I'm in when fighting more than one mob at once.  I played for hours using this last night exping on multiple mob encounters, and basically recast it almost as soon as it came up every time.  The only other spells I use this repetitively are our wards and a few of our debuffs.  This is a great new spell, people, and IMO we should be thankful for it.</p><p></p><hr><p>Do not try to pull the sheet over our eyes. We see you for what you are.</p><p></p></blockquote>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><div></div><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________</p><p>Noah wrote:</p><blockquote><hr>Docimodo wrote:<div></div><div></div>uh what idiot would use stamina food/potions when they are at the cap for that stat. use another type of food/potion like say, i don't know, a raw hp food/pot? an agility food/pot?......... choose different configuration of mt group or something maybe too. nothing is set in stone you know<p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Some people really dont give a crap and just buy whatever is on the broker.  11 sta/  agi... str... w/e it is - is not going to make a difference when getting hit for 3500s.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________</p><p>hehe so true. a properly buffed tank does not a successful raid make. but it does help to have at least a respectable setup.</p><p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">03-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:20 PM</span></p>

[Raff]

<div></div><p><span>After reading this thread, I must say I feel so sorry for the mystic. It's been proven the mystic is completely inferior and has no use while defilers exist. There is no reason to have a mystic in a raid guild or group for that matter when a defiler is an option. It's a travesty - no, its an attack on every single person in the MMO world. Its completely unfair.</span></p><p><span>I'm going to have to have a long talk w/ my guild mystics tonight and break the news to them lightly. They have no reason to go on with me around. Our guild will be shocked to find out just how bad the mystic sucks when I have them read this thread. And who knew. I mean we all thought they were great; we even let them be in the MT group on raids just to mix it up a little. That few extra HP I have as a defiler is FINALLY going to let us beat the entire game - we are gonna WIN now!!!</span></p><p><span>Sorry, I don't mean to get excited during such a terrible thread. I will do my part to educate all of the other classes on the horrible disparity here and have them send you their pity and support. We are here for you. I had no idea the balance was so unfair. I can't believe we ever kept anyone alive or defeated any mob using a mystic. Must have been damned good luck on our part. No more, we will use only defilers from this day forth and ensure we never go w/out unused sta buffs.</span></p><p><span>Thanks for such an enlightening thread. I wish you all well getting this terrible, terrible unfair treatment corrected.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Your friend from the Defiler support community - we're reaching out to those less fortunate.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Raffta on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Raffta on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 PM</span></p>

[thedu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Raffta wrote:<div></div><p><span>After reading this thread, I must say I feel so sorry for the mystic. It's been proven the mystic is completely inferior and has no use while defilers exist. There is no reason to have a mystic in a raid guild or group for that matter when a defiler is an option. It's a travesty - no, its an attack on every single person in the MMO world. Its completely unfair.</span></p><p><span>I'm going to have to have a long talk w/ my guild mystics tonight and break the news to them lightly. They have no reason to go on with me around. Our guild will be shocked to find out just how bad the mystic sucks when I have them read this thread. And who knew. I mean we all thought they were great; we even let them be in the MT group on raids just to mix it up a little. That few extra HP I have as a defiler is FINALLY going to let us beat the entire game - we are gonna WIN now!!!</span></p><p><span>Sorry, I don't mean to get excited during such a terrible thread. I will do my part to educate all of the other classes on the horrible disparity here and have them send you their pity and support. We are here for you. I had no idea the balance was so unfair. I can't believe we ever kept anyone alive or defeated any mob using a mystic. Must have been damned good luck on our part. No more, we will use only defilers from this day forth and ensure we never go w/out unused sta buffs.</span></p><p><span>Thanks for such an enlightening thread. I wish you all well getting this terrible, terrible unfair treatment corrected.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Your friend from the Defiler support community - we're reaching out to those less fortunate.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Raffta on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Raffta on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Wow. Wonder how long it took you to figure out sarcasm.  Or is it that your just incapable of cogitating a real argument and essaying it into sentence form?I sincerely doubt you actually read the WHOLE thread. Most likely skimmed through. That's alright -- I understand it must be difficult for you in the first place to comprehend complex thought.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:56 PM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

Thank you so much for your support! You don't know how much this truly means to us *sniffle*. Without caring, understanding and sincere Defilers like you, Raffta, our plight would remain cloaked in misinformation....the rest of the player base in the dark about our gross imbalance.I believe it is time for you to do your part in helping your fellow Mystic feel worthwhile. You can start by passing any future shaman usable loot to any Mystic lucky enough to be included in the raid out of pity. This will help ease the pain of hopeless inferiority just a little, and will help show the Mystic community, nay the community as a whole, how selfless and benevolent the Defiler community truly is. A win-win situation!The above method will also ease the transition of Defilers out of raids completely, which should begin right after LU 21. Somehow in the midst of the shaman controversy, an evil developer, no doubt heeding the suggestions of certain shaman community members, decided to twist our beloved group buff Bolster into a raid wide castable monster! Mystics worldwide will suddenly be revered like the proverbial golden calf....inexplicably thrust into all 4 raid groups by starry eyed raid leaders bent on taking advantage of the Bolster mutation. No longer will a mere 600 hp advantage be enough when a 2,500 hp buff can be maintained practically indefinately! Defilers on all servers will be left by the wayside as one new Mystic recruit after another takes over their raid spots as the new min/max shaman. I just....can't....imagine what that is going to be like.Nonetheless, the solidarity of the shaman community shall continue. Just as Mystics have great support from Defilers like you, so shall I not let my Defiler brethren down thru their time of need. That's all I can say right now, I'm getting too emotional...<div></div>

[thedu]

At least we are no longer <b><i>whingers</i></b>. Phew...I hate to *shudder* at the thought.<div></div>

[Raff]

<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div>I believe it is time for you to do your part in helping your fellow Mystic feel worthwhile. You can start by passing any future shaman usable loot to any Mystic lucky enough to be included in the raid out of pity. This will help ease the pain of hopeless inferiority just a little, and will help show the Mystic community, nay the community as a whole, how selfless and benevolent the Defiler community truly is. A win-win situation!</div><div>__________________________________________________ _________________________________</div><div> </div></blockquote><div>Funny thing here, not only is our best mystic a great guild leader, she always has 5 times my DKP. I always get seconds anyways. I figure it's best to let her have it, my toon is a gnome - so naturally he is mightier. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Do take my comments lightly... I just like playing around a lot. I never thought bolster should have been nerfed after release, when a subset of my whiney counterparts were griping about our defile spell. Most gave me much grief about being optimistic about it and giving the devs some time to fix it. Now they all love defile (for the simple reason it works) and you still got shorted on your bolster buff. Do some searches in the defiler board on the defile spell for my posts and you'll find me defending you tooth and nail.</div><div> </div><div>I do hope folks come to agree with me on one point. Mystics are great healers and are lacking little, same with defilers. We are balanced. Any well played mystic adds just as much vale to a raid (and MT grp since ppl seem to think thats where its at) as any well played defiler. It's plain silly being so melodramatic about something so trivial.</div><div> </div><div>And to the OP's origional point - yea, i would have thought that too. I'm always jealous of the extra power our mystic has than I do from her buff. I like giving the MT the couple extra hundred HP, but I'd prefer the power pool of the mystic version as I always keep it up on the MT and myself. Perhaps the better buff is the STA buff you get. It would seem very effective in most situations achieving the same goals in a slightly different way.</div>

[thedu]

Well why didn't you say so in the first place...<span>:smileytongue:</span>I'm all taking things in stride otherwise I would have given up on playing a Mystic a long time ago, but I can understand how things can go wrong when your trying to convey levity in a post.<div></div>

[Raff]

<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>Well why didn't you say so in the first place...<span><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" height="16" width="16" border="0"></span>I'm all taking things in stride otherwise I would have given up on playing a Mystic a long time ago, but I can understand how things can go wrong when your trying to convey levity in a post.</p><p>____________________</p></blockquote><p>I expected as much posting something so bold <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just poking fun in an outlandish way. And don't assume I can comprehend complex thought now, I'm easily boggled. But I do love the shaman classes, they are the funnest healers IMO (for me not for everyone of course). I also like both versions, I just prefer the way the Defiler was built which is why I chose him some 16 months ago. I still want for things mystics have too, which is my indicator we have balance.</p><p>Take care and may your only faults be that you are Qeynosians.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Mystiq]

<div></div>All in good fun right <span>:smileywink:. I like being sarcastic much more than being angry anyway.What I've gathered from this and other discussions that put Mystics up against Defilers is that we're more alike than we are different. This is both good and bad, though.I never thought the disparity was all that great, what made me kind of angry was the fact some great Defiler supremacy attitude existed with Defilers themselves and with raiding guilds. Defilers were like this status quo MT shaman for reasons based on class design. Well [Removed for Content]? My thoughts were that Mystics, being the more defensive and buff oriented shaman (supposedly) should be the ones that offer the most to offer in a MT group situation. It seems to be something of a trend the other priests follow. It doesn't really seem fair to me that Defilers have both a debuff only worth casting on a main tank, and a group strength buff that also provides a large and equally distributed amount of HP to a group, while the Mystic version provides consistently much less HP, especially to priests and mages, by buffing stamina instead. It doesn't seem fair that Mystics do not offer any clear advantages when placed in the MT group, and likewise seems unfair that Defilers have less utility when outside the MT group.All I wanted was an equal shot for Mystics, and Bolster seemed like a step in the right direction. but it was a short lived victory. Sure yes Bolster is still a nice buff, but honestly it's far from game breaking or tide turning or even exciting to cast anymore. It was never game breaking to begin with, nor was it a nerf to any other class. I hadn't been so excited about a spell since Torpor. The nerf to Bolster was harsh and disappointing, but not surprising. Making it castable raid wide will probably do more harm than good as well. It's certainly not making Mystics an equal choice for the MT group.</span><div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><p>Yes, It would be nice if more Defilers had the good grace to accept that a lot of Mystics feel let down by our current spell lineup.</p><p>Unfortunately, we are seeing too many dogs in the manger from the Defiler community. " Yay, my Defiler got fixed, now I'm gunna make sure I do everything I can to make sure Mystics stay right where they are"</p><p>Right now I'm trying to think of reasons not to betray.</p><p>I cannot think of any good ones when I consider solo or group situations, so that leaves raiding. My guild hasn't done a lot of T7 raids yet, but when we do, I had better feel darn useful, or else I will have to cross that off the list too.</p><p> </p>

[paisan]

<div></div>Reason #1  you would be on the same team as Captain Rhetoric and his dopey sidekick Radical_Retard.

[mR_jOHNNO]

Im not one to stand at the urinal of shaminism glancing over my shoulder and feeling insecure..but for ffs people..some of you could use a bit of female company orsomething..Here's a fact.. only the bottom of the barrel of the human gene pool calls for nerfs on other classes .. Thats all there is to it really.. a % here or there doesntreally matter much at the end of the day..If your enjoyment from the game only stems from keeping other classes out the main tank grp on raids then theres obviouslyno point in peering over my shoulder at that urinal anyway as theres nothing to see.. I dont wish nerfs on any class but I sure wish some of these tossers who go aroundleading these crusades on these forums would log on one day to find all thier spells reverted back to ap1..their mountains of plat removed and all the stats wiped from thearmour.. Would be nice..its called karma..what goes around comes around and all that..Dont even know why I read half the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e on these boards anyway..it just makes my blood boil ..end of rantage have a nice day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />BTW.. sorry to be an anally retentive idiot.. but to that guy claiming his a prov and he knows that icon is a drink that boosts stamina..thats bollocks mate.. its also an iconshared with a few drinks with no stat increase..<div></div>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Do you realize you are making yourself look foolish here?Numerous examples here show that Tanks are SHATTERING the Stamina cap.  Not just by a little.  By a LOT.  There is at least one screenie here of a L66 tank with fairly standard gear WELL over the cap.  Not T7 Fabled gear.  Not a L70 tank.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm looking foolish?  You are a non raiding shaman attempting to rebalance the end game by demanding an increase to the stat cap based solely on mystic buffs.</p><p>There is no "SHATTERING" here.  What has been shown by Mystique, which I believe, is that the best level 70 geared tank on Permafrost, who is in full T7 fabled gear, is a small amount over the STA cap with her master and Adept 3 buffs on the tank, and with the tank using his level 70 Adept 3 self buff.</p><p>This proves my point - that your STA buffs are being mostly utilized, and any amount you can actually buff over the cap is insignificant in the scope of things.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry my non-raiding self can't live up to the great standards you set.I only raided before you even started PLAYING a Shaman.  I had my Shamans Prismatic back when it was "cool" to wear the suffix "of the Shard".You only further discredit yourself by continuing to question my credentials.  My credentials as a Shaman and an EQ2 player in general are every bit as good as anyone's.  I actually maintain and play TWO raid level characters.  I'm sorry you can't understand the situation, but I'm done explaining it to you.It's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that STA buffs do not hold a value equivalent to what a raw HP buff does.  The key there being REASONABLE doubt. I'm sure you can continue to provide us with unreasonable doubts for a couple more months.</span></div>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div>All in good fun right <span>:smileywink:. I like being sarcastic much more than being angry anyway.What I've gathered from this and other discussions that put Mystics up against Defilers is that we're more alike than we are different. This is both good and bad, though.I never thought the disparity was all that great, what made me kind of angry was the fact some great Defiler supremacy attitude existed with Defilers themselves and with raiding guilds. Defilers were like this status quo MT shaman for reasons based on class design. Well [Removed for Content]? My thoughts were that Mystics, being the more defensive and buff oriented shaman (supposedly) should be the ones that offer the most to offer in a MT group situation. It seems to be something of a trend the other priests follow. It doesn't really seem fair to me that Defilers have both a debuff only worth casting on a main tank, and a group strength buff that also provides a large and equally distributed amount of HP to a group, while the Mystic version provides consistently much less HP, especially to priests and mages, by buffing stamina instead. It doesn't seem fair that Mystics do not offer any clear advantages when placed in the MT group, and likewise seems unfair that Defilers have less utility when outside the MT group.All I wanted was an equal shot for Mystics, and Bolster seemed like a step in the right direction. but it was a short lived victory. Sure yes Bolster is still a nice buff, but honestly it's far from game breaking or tide turning or even exciting to cast anymore. It was never game breaking to begin with, nor was it a nerf to any other class. I hadn't been so excited about a spell since Torpor. The nerf to Bolster was harsh and disappointing, but not surprising. Making it castable raid wide will probably do more harm than good as well. It's certainly not making Mystics an equal choice for the MT group.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Defilers are better in MT grp, mystics are better outside of tank grp, isnt that the balance between the class? You're asking for an equal opportunity inside of MT grp, but wouldnt that make defilers useless since mystics are superior outside of mt grp? If you dont think the original 32% bolster was overpowered or that the nerf was unjust, you are just as ignorant as most of the other mystics out there. Making bolster castable out of grp makes mystics a must have in a raid, at any position. I failed to see how that can be a harm to your class, considered that defilers get a (imo) Fun spell for our lvl 65. They would have to let us cast tendril out of grp AND give us another ward/heal to make us equal to mystics outside of MT grp. Until that happen, im happy with the defiler role in the MT grp and you mystics should be happy with yours<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just play the game.</div>

[Banditman]

There is exactly, and I do mean exactly, ONE spell difference between Mystics and Defilers given each outside of the MT group.Torpor.That's it.  A spell I can cast once every 30 seconds.According to some people, one spell should not make a difference.<div></div>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:There is exactly, and I do mean exactly, ONE spell difference between Mystics and Defilers given each outside of the MT group.Torpor.That's it.  A spell I can cast once every 30 seconds.According to some people, one spell should not make a difference.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Correct me if im wrong, but didnt they recently make Bolster castable on anyone in raid? </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Do not try to pull the sheet over our eyes. We see you for what you are.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>I'm posting from a hotel, so forgive me in advance if I don't respond for a few more days, but I need to respond to your comments, because they are simply ignorant.</p><p>Your snippets from my posts made over a course of about a week are far from informative about anything.</p><p>The core of your issue involves my being happy that Bolster was modified, so let me just address that.</p><p>Yes, I was happy that Bolster was nerfed.  I had submitted /feedback and made posts suggesting that I and other defilers would be happy if the spell was converted into something else, or just made raid wide rather than group only.</p><p>Why was I happy that Bolster was nerfed?  It wasn't done in a griefing sense, because I was jealous of your new godlike capability when what we originally got sucked worse than a plugged up vacuum cleaner.  Your ability to increase a tank's HP by ~5000 with the original version of Bolster clearly unbalanced the end game against raid mobs, but that wasn't my concern.  The negative reaction by me and many many other defilers against Bolster was because it was a huge benefit to mystics, at a huge cost to defilers.  With the the original version of Bolster, no raid leader would ever use a defiler in a MT group, ever again, unless there were no mystics available for the raid.  Defilers are a very specialized class, and almost nothing we can cast except 2 heals and single target debuffs (plus one group dot/dis debuff) can be cast outside the group the defiler is in.  So basically, our class was being completely rebalanced by Bolster, and it completely devalued defilers by making them only good for casting single target debuffs at a raid.  Other priest classes are far better patch healers and in alternative raid positions, it would be a complete waste of a raid slot to have more than two defilers at a raid if Bolster was kept as it was.</p><p>I'm sorry if you are so bitter that you can't think beyond your own self interests and consider me greedy for not wanting my own class nerfed, but that's exactly what Bolster did.  It nerfed defilers. </p><p>If you read the defiler boards, a good part of the defiler community, and probably up to half, would still trade the nerfed version of Bolster for what we got, which is Defile.  One of the biggest issues in the defiler community is that we have many different members with widely different opinions about the same issues.  About the only common thing I've ever seen most defilers agree about on these boards is that Bolster was unbalancing to the extent of being a nerf to raiding defilers.</p><p>Like I said, I would have been happy with EITHER the reduction to Bolster or it being made raid wide rather than group only.  Either of those things completely resolves my concerns.  So if Bolster does make it live as a spell that can be cast raid wide rather than group only, I would have no objection if the effect on it was increased, because that would not directly affect my class in a negative way. </p><p>But let's also discuss your out of context quotes regarding what I said about Defile.  I'm personally thrilled to have it, and think it provides defilers with some much needed dps and is a very nice spell.  My comments asking the defiler community to not go out and brag about Defile, or make outlandish claims about it, is based on the history some defilers have doing just that.  The fact is that some defilers have previously posted on the mystic boards and made comments in the nature of "defiler's own and mystics suck".  I'm very tired of being tarred by mystics making defensive posts based on obvious hurt feelings regarding such posts.  Me, and I believe the defiler community at large, do not hold that belief, and do not support individual defilers coming on your board and talking like professional wrestlers.  In the future, please understand that every player speaks for himself, and not as their class rep.  So I think I was very justified making comments thanking SoE for fixing defile, and asking other defilers to only post fair, truthful and non-boastful comments about this spell.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:20 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>It's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that STA buffs do not hold a value equivalent to what a raw HP buff does.  The key there being REASONABLE doubt. </span></div><hr></blockquote><p>What's proven and certain is that almost all classes have buffs and debuffs that cannot be fully utilized based on overlapping and stacking issues with other classes.</p><p>All of my debuffs are wasted to some extent, because each stat I can debuff can already be debuffed to the max cap by other classes.</p><p>So how is it that you are being treated unfairly again?  You aren't.  As always, you are just whining.</p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div><span>The nerf to Bolster was harsh and disappointing, but not surprising. Making it castable raid wide will probably do more harm than good as well. It's certainly not making Mystics an equal choice for the MT group.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It is beyond pitiful that you have called me greedy for objecting to Bolster on the basis that it nerfed my class by making yours the new defacto choice for MT group at raids.  You and Banditman belittled me for objecting to Bolster on that basis, and claimed that made me greedy and self interested, rather than supporting my guild's own best interests instead.</p><p>Now, they IMPROVE Bolster by making it raid wide rather than group only, and your true two faced selfish personality shows itself loud and clear.  Please stop crying that this UPGRADE to Bolster will "do more harm than good."  This IMPROVEMENT to Bolster makes mystics more versatile, more attractive to raids and raiding guilds, and is a great benefit to your class and guild.</p>

[paisan]

<div></div><p>My comments about you are not ignorant... i have read every long winded post you have written on these boards and a lot from the defiler boards. Frankly i think i may have lost mre than a few brain cells in the process.</p><p>I never said i disliked Defilers. I thought i made it blatently obvious as to who i disliked. But then again you would refute the fact that the sky is blue if it benefited you in some way.</p><p>In your post you say two things that sum up your point of view.</p><p>Summary: You helped get Mystic's nerfed and were happy afterwards because we would have rivaled the power of your class AND THEN told people to hide your own skill so it wouldnt happen to you.</p><p></p><hr>I'm sorry if you are so bitter that you can't think beyond your own self interests and consider me greedy for <font color="#ff3300">not wanting my own class nerfed</font>, but that's exactly what Bolster did.  It nerfed defilers. <hr><p>LMFAO You are the most self centered person on the planet.</p><p>You are the dork on the playground that tattles but still wants to hang out. Please understand that your not welcome and understand if some of us give you a proverbial wedgie.</p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> Defilers are a very specialized class</p><hr></blockquote>Excuse me?!? Every class is specialized.</span><div></div>

[obnoxa]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Ixnay, you make me laugh. Thank you for YOUR percieved idea of our class' role in game & slamming any and all who oppose you.</p><p>Let me get this straight, you're here complaining... about people complaining. Well gee whiz! Thats <em>really</em> bringing something to the table. I know I'm thinking outside the box here but here's a thought: if you don't want to hear anyone ehm, complaining about the mystic class then maybe, just maybe, don't come to the mystic board? Somehow I don't see alot of mystics complaining in oh..say the guardian forum?</p><p>Dog dog? Oh, that was a dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] term in 1 and it is now. And yes my 'misinformed & unjustified self pitying mystic brethern' as it was so eloquantly put, that <strong>is</strong> the big discussion in the defiler board, <em>they don't all like their dog dog</em> *sniff sniff*</p><p>You have reaffirmed the fundamental truth behind the phrase "It is better to be silent and thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt'</p><p>Message Edited by obnoxa on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:00 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by obnoxa on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:38 AM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>Summary: You helped get Mystic's nerfed and were happy afterwards because we would have rivaled the power of your class AND THEN told people to hide your own skill so it wouldnt happen to you.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Summary:  Because the original Bolster was a huge benefit to mystics at the expense of defilers, me and other defilers brought that to SoE's attention by using facts and opinions based on those facts, and SoE agreed with us and fixed things to correct this unintended rebalancing of our classes.</p><p>I didn't tell anyone to "hide" the effects of Defile.  You took a couple snippets in a week long conversation out of context and are making a big deal out of the fact that I suggested to the defiler community that it wasn't in our best interest to act like you are acting now, and start talking smack our new ability.  If you have any question about what Defile does, feel free to ask me, and I'll give you honest information, just like I suggested other defilers should do.  The fact is, Defile has nothing to do with mystics in any way, and does not make your class inferior, and mine superior, in the eyes of raid guilds, which was the basis of our complaint about Bolster.</p><p>Please let me know if you have any questions.</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>obnoxa wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Let me get this straight, you're here complaining... about people complaining. Well gee whiz! Thats <em>really</em> bringing something to the table. I know I'm thinking outside the box here but here's a thought: if you don't want to hear anyone ehm, complaining about the mystic class then maybe, just maybe, don't come to the mystic board? Somehow I don't see alot of mystics complaining in oh..say the guardian forum?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Since this is the only part of your argument that is coherent and attempts to make a point, let me address it.</p><p>I never ever made a single post on this board until after Bolster was nerfed, when Banditman posted that I had spearheaded the nerf of Bolster.  He did that in a way that I believe improperly carried this same conversation off a private board and into the public.  I then responded and told him that since he opened the door, I would pursue this conversation on this board, as well as all future conversations on this board affecting the defiler class in any way.</p><p>You see, the basis of most of the whining on this board by mystics relates to defilers.  That we buff more HP than you do.  That we have a slow that can possibly slow for more than yours, when and if it procs, etc., etc.  Couched in every one of your complaints, even if not stated, is a suggestion that my class should be indirectly nerfed, and certain abilities of your class should be increased in relation to mine.  All of these arguments squarely affect my class, because you are generally using my class for your comparisons and arguments that our classes should be rebalanced in power with respect to each other.  Accordingly, I and other defilers have every right to come here and refute your hogwash.  And that's what I intend to continue doing.  Please note that I don't post on other class boards, at all, except perhaps informational messages with spell listings and such I make on my alchemist or sage.  There is a huge difference between me posting about issues on the mystic board that affect my class, and me posting on guardian boards about issues that don't affect my class, which I in fact don't do.</p>

[Banditman]

We do need to thank Ixnay for one thing though . . . he single handedly managed to galvanize the Mystic community.Through his continued participation, he's made just about every Mystic aware of the problem with our buffing.  I don't think I could have done as much to secure the backing of so many Mystics without him.It takes a really special person to take time out of a business schedule to make sure that a community continues to pull together for it's own betterment.Thanks man.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>I'm sorry my non-raiding self can't live up to the great standards you set.I only raided before you even started PLAYING a Shaman.  I had my Shamans Prismatic back when it was "cool" to wear the suffix "of the Shard".You only further discredit yourself by continuing to question my credentials.  My credentials as a Shaman and an EQ2 player in general are every bit as good as anyone's.  I actually maintain and play TWO raid level characters.  I'm sorry you can't understand the situation, but I'm done explaining it to you.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Please share with us what your character names are.  Mine are listed in my signature file below.  I'm interested in seeing what raiding you've done, if any, post LU13 on your shaman.

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><p>Summary:  Because the original Bolster was a huge benefit to mystics at the expense of defilers,  </p><hr></blockquote>No, this is where you are wrong.  Bolster did nothing for you at all.  It did nothing to you.  It was a benefit to Mystics.  That is all.No amount of spewing "facts" by yourself will change that.  Bolster was nerfed in no small part due to your whining in a place where it would be more likely to be noticed.The upcoming "change" to Bolster is simply a statement of it's value in the castrated form it is now.  It's no longer a buff valuable enough to be considered a balance point.Keep up the work though, we appreciate your willingness to keep us active in refuting your "facts" and rhetoric despite your "business trip".</span></div>

[Banditman]

I tell you what, if at some point I care to be disturbed by you in game, I'll let you know.  For now, I pass.The Mystics (and others) who need to know who I am in game do.  The fact that you don't pleases me to no end.My character names have nothing to do with my knowledge of the game.  The people whose opinion and respect I care to garner know who I am, what I bring to the table and the depth of my knowledge. I am smart enough to know that my own experiences are not the be all end all, and therefore I've cultivated relationships with other knowledgeable Mystics and will without hesitation draw upon their experiences.  My knowledge encompasses far more than what my particular characters have experienced.Instead of challenging that, perhaps you could restrict yourself to the facts and discussion at hand.Better yet, perhaps you could remove yourself from where you are not needed or wanted. Or maybe go back to your "business trip".Your choice.<div></div>

[ShadowyStingray]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>It's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that STA buffs do not hold a value equivalent to what a raw HP buff does.  The key there being REASONABLE doubt. </span></div><hr></blockquote><p>What's proven and certain is that almost all classes have buffs and debuffs that cannot be fully utilized based on overlapping and stacking issues with other classes.</p><p>All of my debuffs are wasted to some extent, because each stat I can debuff can already be debuffed to the max cap by other classes.</p><p>So how is it that you are being treated unfairly again?  You aren't.  As always, you are just whining.</p><hr></blockquote>So, isn't this more or less saying, that you as a Defiler, assuming a good distribution of other debuffing classes are present in a raid, don't NEED to be in the MT group since there's a good probability that some part of your debuffs are 'wasted' due to caps?  Sounds to me like even though you have argued that Defilers NEED to be in the MT group to be most effective in their role because of the nature of the gifts endowed to them by SOE (buffs/debuffs that can't be cast out of group), you're contradicting yourself here by saying that even when Defilers are in the MT group, they're not completely effective, either.  I'd wager this describes quite a few classes that participate in raids since raids are about teamwork and cooperation and sometimes having to do things you don't normally do in regular group situations.I think for the most part, you have made an honest effort to be reasonable in most of your arguments regarding shaman balance issues, but I am afraid I can't help but think this is still just an effort by you to keep your 'coveted' MT group spot.  I have seen you post regarding Mystic vs. Defiler issues in this and other forums stating that a big factor in your enjoyment of this game is being in the MT group in raids, and Bolster in it's old form was a clear threat to that position for you (in your words, no raid leader would ever put a Defiler in an MT group again, and that would somehow spell the death of the class), hence your strong desire to have it nerfed so you could continue to enjoy this game (read: stay in the MT group).  And, in another post in this forum you confirm that again by saying you prefer to be in the MT group due to it being 'intense' and having more action than other raid spots.  Well, what do you have to say to Mystics (who are after all shaman and a part of that 'trinity' of priests who should comprise a MT group) who are being pushed out to other groups but aspire to be in the 'coveted' MT group, and who also want to experience being in a raid position with supposedly more action and intensity but can't simply because of a numbers game and there happens to be Defiler around (and the numbers say that supposedly a Defiler has to be in the MT group to be most effective)?  What if the only way for some Mystics (or for that matter, insert any class here) to enjoy the game is to be in the MT group in raids?  I hope you can see that on the surface, this looks extremely selfish on your part, especially in the context of raids, which sould be anything but that and how this can be giving you a credibility problem.  This goes back to what other esteemed Mystics have said on this board is all they want: a fair shake at an equal shot at being wanted in any group at the end game.  Period.  I think most of us Mystics believe, contrary to your beliefs, that this isn't really the reality right now at the end game.  And if you feel there are things that make Defilers so useless outside of an end game MT group to the point it's a handicap, perhaps the Mystic community should do the Defiler a community a favor and help get your class to be more useful outside of an MT group (your community is lobbying for this, right?) in the interest of balance, of course.Anyway, this is how a lurker Mysic sees this drama...</span></div>

[Fennir]

they name potions after [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]gots like this?  crazy lol<div></div>

[Banditman]

If the Defiler community feels a need to get some things corrected to make them more desireable outside the MT group, then by all means, let them do their own legwork to make that happen.I work too hard for Mystics to put any effort into working for a community whose "leading" members have been somewhat less than supportive and understanding of the issues in my own community.<div></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><p>You can't argue logically with an illogical person.</p><p>Ixnay have fun in fantasyland. Continue to bias and spin things how you see fit. I will continue to call you out for your idiocy.</p><p>Personally i have to admire someone who can suck enough schlong to hold onto his MT slot at all costs. Personally i will remain heterosexual. </p><p> You are forever dubbed the unwanted dork of the mystic boards.</p><p> /wedgie</p>

[tebion]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div> /wedgie<hr></blockquote>now we are talking the way it should be <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[obnoxa]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p> </p><blockquote><hr>I never ever made a single post on this board until after Bolster was nerfed, when Banditman posted that I had spearheaded the nerf of Bolster.  He did that in a way that I believe improperly carried this same conversation off a private board and into the public.  I then responded and told him that since he opened the door, I would pursue this conversation on this board, as well as all future conversations on this board affecting the defiler class in any way.<hr></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p> </p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Really? Funny, your first post on this topic does not address Banditman's 'supposed' accusation in any way. All your first post really talks about is how us 'uninformed mystics' need to shut up and learn our station so we don't wreck it for you. I would think if I were or felt I was wrongly accused of spearheading another classes nerf that would be the first thing I would attempt to clear up in a public forum. So I can assume it's just a coincedence that your first post here was posted 9 minutes before thanking Broomhilde for bringing this post to your attention on the defiler forum? Or am I misinformed about that too? Or is this where I call bull [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr>Since this is the only part of your argument that is coherent and attempts to make a point, let me address it.<hr></blockquote><p>Well since you cannot grasp my entire post lemme splain:</p><p><em>You make me laugh. Thank you for YOUR percieved role of our class:</em> You're an idiot</p><p><em>Dog dog? (From your I like my dogdog post):</em> You're a fruity idiot</p><p><em>You have reaffirmed the fundamental truth:</em> You're a fruity idiot who deosn't know when to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</p><p>There. Is that "coherent" enough for you? Or did I throw you off with idiot because as it has 3 syllables? How about tool? Does tool work for you?</p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Couched in every one of your complaints, even if not stated, is a suggestion that my class should be indirectly nerfed, and certain abilities of your class should be increased in relation to mine.  </p><p></p><hr><p>I certainly hope this is some kind of poster wide generalization and that you are in fact not really applying it to me, look a little to your left, do you see that? I HAVE 5 POSTS IN TOTAL. Easily scrolled through to see that never once have I complained that defilers or mystics or anyone should be nerfed, increased or anything else. In fact it is almost applaudable that you have irked (in case thats incoherent to you that means irritated, annoyed) me enough to actually inspire not 1 post but 2!</p><p>Amen Paisan, you can't argue logically with the illogical but it's like a train wreck that you know you should look away from, but can't. BTW, /wedgie truly beautiful! :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>In the end I suppose I should thank Broomhilde for "bringing this to your attention". Maybe in game I'll give up my identity and go smack her [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I can you know, I'm sooooo much tougher with my stamina buff,why even a good 7 levels below her I'm almost unstoppable!</p><p></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by obnoxa on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by obnoxa on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:28 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>No, this is where you are wrong.  Bolster did nothing for you at all.  It did nothing to you.  It was a benefit to Mystics.  That is all.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>I know you believe this, and I'm sure other mystics do also, but I don't believe any defiler does.  You are wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:52 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>You can't argue logically with an illogical person.</p><p>Ixnay have fun in fantasyland. Continue to bias and spin things how you see fit. I will continue to call you out for your idiocy.</p><p>Personally i have to admire someone who can suck enough schlong to hold onto his MT slot at all costs. Personally i will remain heterosexual. </p><hr></blockquote>I just wanted to immortalize your words in a quote to help your peers understand what a low class person you are.  By making comments like the above, you do far more damage to your reputation and class than I could ever do.

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I work too hard for Mystics to put any effort into working for a community whose "leading" members have been somewhat less than supportive and understanding of the issues in my own community.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Trust me, we don't want you to have anything to do with us.  You don't, and never have, worked in favor of "shaman".  You are pro-mystic and anti-defiler.  Please don't even suggest you have ever done anything with the intent to benefit the defiler community in any way. </p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>obnoxa wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p>Well since you cannot grasp my entire post lemme splain:</p><p><em>You make me laugh. Thank you for YOUR percieved role of our class:</em> You're an idiot</p><p><em>Dog dog? (From your I like my dogdog post):</em> You're a fruity idiot</p><p><em>You have reaffirmed the fundamental truth:</em> You're a fruity idiot who deosn't know when to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</p><p>There. Is that "coherent" enough for you? Or did I throw you off with idiot because as it has 3 syllables? How about tool? Does tool work for you?</p></blockquote></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>If you are saying that you've read all of my 2200 posts on eq2players.com, and this is the most incriminating material you could come up with, that this is your best shot, then you are a simpleton and a weakling.</p><blockquote><hr>obnoxa wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p>So I can assume it's just a coincedence that your first post here was posted 9 minutes before thanking Broomhilde for bringing this post to your attention on the defiler forum? Or am I misinformed about that too? Or is this where I call bull [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?</p><p></p><hr><p></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>Not sure why you would find it so difficult to believe that I clicked on the link Broomhilda posted in the defiler section, then made a post in this forum in response to what I read here, then closed that window and went back to reading Broomhilda's post, which I then replied to.  Do you always have this problem with logical puzzles?</p><p>What you are doing in each of your posts is like running around the field, spiking the ball, and dancing the cabbage patch.  The problem is, you've never scored a touchdown or advanced the ball in any way.  The only thing missing from your posts are frequent statements of "pwnt".</p><p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I tell you what, if at some point I care to be disturbed by you in game, I'll let you know.  For now, I pass.The Mystics (and others) who need to know who I am in game do.  The fact that you don't pleases me to no end.My character names have nothing to do with my knowledge of the game.  The people whose opinion and respect I care to garner know who I am, what I bring to the table and the depth of my knowledge. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but you continue to try and influence end game balance between mystics and defilers with your "theories" and comments.  I say malarky, sir, that you have no real clue about what you are talking about, because you really aren't a raiding shaman.  You come back and dispute my statement, and boast about being an old school shaman who is well aware of end game issues.</p><p>The problem is, I don't believe you.  You have posted on more than one occassion about not being able to defeat encounters and clear zones that at the same time were simple to me when I did them.  And now you refuse to back up your statements in any way, and just say that they are true because you said them.</p><p>Again, I think you are full of it.  And I think you are a coward for refusing to back up your claims with basic information I could look up on EQ2players.com to confirm or deny what you say.</p><p>So be it, you are a coward for refusing to back up your claims, and in my opinion, you are spineless and lack all credibility.</p>

[obnoxa]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Not sure why you would find it so difficult to believe that I clicked on the link Broomhilda posted in the defiler section, then made a post in this forum in response to what I read here, then closed that window and went back to reading Broomhilda's post, which I then replied to.  Do you always have this problem with logical puzzles?<hr></blockquote><p>I don't. But your retort as to why you posted here was because Banditman accused you of "spearheading a nerf". But now you're saying you clicked the link and made a post here. Well which one was it? Did you come here to defend yourself from accusations or because this was brought to your attention? Don't take my word for it, look at your previous response to me...</p><p>If asking me if I have a problem with logical puzzles (as apposed to the illogical ones, whatever either of those are) was some pathetic attempt at intellegent wit, you failed. Not to mention the 'metaphor' about ball spiking & cabbage patches? What were you picking words out of a hat or something?</p><p>But whatever, I cannot point out what an idiot you are any clearer then you have already done yourself.</p><p>You bore me now.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by obnoxa on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:25 PM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>obnoxa wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Not sure why you would find it so difficult to believe that I clicked on the link Broomhilda posted in the defiler section, then made a post in this forum in response to what I read here, then closed that window and went back to reading Broomhilda's post, which I then replied to.  Do you always have this problem with logical puzzles?<hr></blockquote><p>I don't. But your retort as to why you posted here was because Banditman accused you of "spearheading a nerf". But now you're saying you clicked the link and made a post here. Well which one was it? Did you come here to defend yourself from accusations or because this was brought to your attention? Don't take my word for it, look at your previous response to me...</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, you missed a previous post, that wasn't my first anyway.  My first was a response to banditman in a different thread.  You are the one who brought up the issue, not sure why I need to explain it to you if you didn't have a question about it.<p>Message Edited by Ixnay on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:00 PM</span></p>

[paisan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div>in a quote to help your peers understand what a low class person you are.  By making comments like the above, you do far more damage to your reputation and class than I could ever do.<hr></blockquote><p>OH MAN YOUR RIGHT!</p><p>Let me try and make myself look better by posting a million times on the defiler forum with nonsensical bullcraap and argue with everyone that posts a rebuttal. Man you should write a book.</p><p>/wedgie</p>

[Mystiq]

Honestly, why are you still posting Ixnay? As if you had anything of value or purpose to post from the get go, now your posts are nothing more than empty attempts at one-upmanship, and I'm sorry but you're failing. To my knowledge, nobody from the Mystic community had the gall to get all up in the Defiler discussions on your forum, whether they even remotely pertained to us or not. I think it has something to do with foresight.I really don't see what further business you have posting in this thread other than some masochistic desire to see how low you can drag it.<div></div>

[Eepop]

The reason he continues to post is quite simple and he has said it himself.  He does not want mystics providing competition for his spot in the MT group.Every moment that we spend replying to his posts is time that we should be working towards getting our issues resolved.  We have given him far more attention than he deserves, and refuted his arguments.  And now all he is doing is making us waste more time dealing with him.<div></div>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:The reason he continues to post is quite simple and he has said it himself.  He does not want mystics providing competition for his spot in the MT group.Every moment that we spend replying to his posts is time that we should be working towards getting our issues resolved.  We have given him far more attention than he deserves, and refuted his arguments.  And now all he is doing is making us waste more time dealing with him.<div></div><hr></blockquote>/nod</span><div></div>

[Melio]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I work too hard for Mystics to put any effort into working for a community whose "leading" members have been somewhat less than supportive and understanding of the issues in my own community.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Trust me, we don't want you to have anything to do with us.  You don't, and never have, worked in favor of "shaman".  You are pro-mystic and anti-defiler.  Please don't even suggest you have ever done anything with the intent to benefit the defiler community in any way. </p><hr></blockquote>Vice versa...Trust me, we don't want you to have anything to do with us. You don't, and never have, worked in favor of "shaman". You are pro-defiler and anti-mystic. Please don't even suggest you have ever done anything with the intent to benefit the mystic community in any way.Go to the defiler boards or reevaluate that sta debuff issue... But stop to provoke a community with your "everything is OK with your class" statements. We should know it better than you, shouldn't we?<p>Message Edited by Melioid on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:12 AM</span></p>

[mR_jOHNNO]

<div></div>I think this has been taken care of already about stam caps.. but im going to post a pic anyway..as you can see my monk is far from a raid class tank in terms ofitems etc..and is only lvl 68.. Im still waiting on my ad3 of ancient avatar so the buff on the tank is plain and simple lvl 47 ad3 avatar..spirit of the mammoth ad3 andfortelling ad3.. I did choose ancient avatar m2 and smashed the cap but recently respeced and chose the big heal instead as there was no point having it looking atthe tanks stats..By the time my monk comes across some better equipment a big chunk of my buffs will be going to waste.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/Members/mr_johnno/images/johnnos%20cap.JPG"><div></div>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I work too hard for Mystics to put any effort into working for a community whose "leading" members have been somewhat less than supportive and understanding of the issues in my own community.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Trust me, we don't want you to have anything to do with us.  You don't, and never have, worked in favor of "shaman".  You are pro-mystic and anti-defiler.  Please don't even suggest you have ever done anything with the intent to benefit the defiler community in any way. </p><hr></blockquote>This is, truly and wholly, PRICELESS.I busted my [POSTERIOR] to get Wards changed to the point where they take Mitigation into account.  This is before you even knew what a Shaman was.  That didn't help Defilers or Shaman much did it?  Nah - didn't think so.I busted my [POSTERIOR] to get direct heals brought up to snuff compared to other classes.  Again, I know you weren't a Shaman or Defiler at that time, so you have no effing clue about it.  Not much help to Defilers or Shaman there, right?I busted my [POSTERIOR] to get what was formerly a 2 CP buff changed to 1 CP.  The Mystic lines ends in Foretelling currently, the Defiler line ends in Portent.  Again, I know that didn't really help Defilers or Shaman much.  Sorry.I'll do my best in the future to make sure that none of the changes I work for provide any benefit to Defilers.</span></div>

[Banditman]

Now, dump is correct.I hope that all of us are making every effort to get the Developers pointed at our compiled <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=12678" target="_blank">Mystical Musings</a> thread.This is the agent for change, we need to promote it as much as possible and with every resource at our disposal, be it PM's, chats in game, whatever.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>I'll do my best in the future to make sure that none of the changes I work for provide any benefit to Defilers.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you very much, I appreciate that.</p><p>By the way, it is pretty ridiculous for you to tell me to stay out of threads on the mystic web site when you keep directly addressing me with your comments.</p>

[Banditman]

Here is the difference, once and for all.  I'm sure it won't mean anything to some folks, but the numbers are pretty hard for a logical person to deny.  I'm only comparing apples to apples here.  It's a fairly easy concept.Rapacity and Spirit of the Mammoth are equivalent buffs.  This is to say, they serve the same purpose in the buffing arsenals of the respective healers.SotM Master 1 buffs 75 Stamina, 75 Strength.  Rapacity Master 1 buffs 666 Hit Points and 75 Strength.Assume for a minute that SotM was allowed to push the Stamina cap and take FULL EFFECT on every tank.  This is NOT the current mechanic.  Currently the Stamina cap prevents SotM from yielding its full potential.  But let's pretend for a minute, k?A Fighter gains 5 HP for each point of Stamina.  Other classes gain less, but let's forget about that for a minute too.  75 Stamina x 5 HP per Stamina is 450 HP.Right there, a Mystic is already 216 HP behind the curve.  One buff, compared strait up in absolutely the BEST possible light.  Ok, -216.Foretelling and Portent are again two takes on the same buff.Foretelling Master 1 buffs 643 Hit Points and 738 Power.  Portent Master 1 buffs 964 Hit Points and 492 Power.  There's really not much to talk about there.  Another -321.In a PERFECT WORLD, where Stamina buffs took full effect always, a Tank is losing 537 HP by having a Mystic in his group given an equal Defiler.  I'm sure there are some people who think 537 HP is just a minor difference.  Ask your tank how he'd like to have another 500 HP.Unfortunately, we live in the rather imperfect world where most tanks are close enough to the Stamina cap that Stamina buffs do not take full effect.  The difference is probably more in a real world, raid situation where the tank is already very close to the Stamina cap.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span>I'll do my best in the future to make sure that none of the changes I work for provide any benefit to Defilers.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you very much, I appreciate that.</p><p>By the way, it is pretty ridiculous for you to tell me to stay out of threads on the mystic web site when you keep directly addressing me with your comments.</p><hr></blockquote><p>wow Ixnay.. do you ever shut up??</p><p>OK.. after reading through the last few pages.. and skipping half the 'crap' in there.. as far as the MT spot.. well.. I have to agree with Broom on this one.. you guys now have 2 abilities (Bolster, and Torpor) that allow you to be more effective outsitde of the MT group than a Defiler.. I'm not saying that you are not great for the MT spot, and hell we use a mystic for the MT role on 99% of our raids for the main reason that she is an awesome player.. the difference in 500hp on the tank.. or even 1000 on the tank does not change our ability to take down everything we can.. because we are all great people, and great players.. and work well together as a team.. Yes.. the MT role can be a lot more exciting on a raid.. and a lot of people see it as a "Status symbol" .. but really what matters is how well those 24 people pull together to take the baddies down..</p><p>You guys buff Stats.. we buff HP/Power.. that's the difference between the classes.. and from what I recall, that has always been the difference between our classes.. and Don't forget that our 'warding buffs' are different as well.. yours blocks melee damage, and ours blocks magical damage.. You keep stating that we are better for the MT group because we buff raw HP / Power, and you guys have buffs that are inneffective on the tank if they're at or near the stat cap.. now you have 2 abilities that you can cast cross raid to help out and maximize the benefit TO THE RAID if you are outside of the MT role..</p><p>Seriously though.. If I were to organize a raid, and had to take take 4 shamen.. I would bring 1 defiler, and 3 mystics.. the reason.. because a mystic is more beneficial outside of the MT group than a Defiler is.. I would not take 1 mystic and 3 defilers... infact we usually run 2 and 2.. it allows us all to relax a bit, and each of us can specialize on a specific role for the raid and help eachother out where needed. All shaman own.. and any one of us can fill a spot for the other..</p><p>Anyhow.. back to your bantering.. I really do enjoy watching you guys scream at eachother.. and when a logical post is put up.. there's very little comment on it..</p>

[Banditman]

Look at it this way:  Would a Defiler choose NOT to cast Rapacity in their group?Yea, exactly.  500 HP is significant, and frankly, is the LOW end of spectrum.  It's likely a lot more than that in raid situations.All of the arguements about how Mystics should be satisfied outside of the MT are moot.  That's not the point at all.  What about that person who WANTS to be in the MT group?  There are people who have argued that being outside the MT group would "ruin" their EQ experience.  Could there not be Mystics with the same desires?No where, anywhere, have Mystics said we want to be superior buffers.  We've said we want to be equal.  We've presented mounds of evidence that illustrate how within the current game mechanics this is not currently the case.  We've never asked for nerfs to the abilities of another class, and while I'm around we never will.And for our efforts, we are rewarded with a few folks from a different class going out of their way to come to our forum, telling us that we should stop whining and accept the status quo.Most Mystics try hard to be reasonable, we really do.  It shouldn't be so difficult to have a measured, logical conversation, I swear it shouldn't.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

Good post Eileithia - hard name to type! I have to agree that a lot of crap has accumulated in this thread, and I am not free of blame when it comes to staying on topic or being flame retardant (deedeedee). This topic has just about run its course and I'm prolly gonna move on to other threads that are more squarely devoted to the balance and enjoyment of my class.But in comment to your points, when all is said and done, I really am happy that Mystics have a good bit of utility no matter what group we're in. Whether the change to make Bolster raid wide castable (which just happened with today's LU btw...I haven't even been online yet) makes Mystics "more desirable" or not is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that Mystics never were undesirable, or at least never should have been. I also don't feel that Defilers are "useless" outside of the MT group, at least not enough to warrant all of the outlandish arguments I've heard stating so.As for Torpor always making it into the shaman utility discussions, well I feel that argument is and always has been pretty weak. How about the utility of Force Cannibalize? Or Bane of Shielding? Mystics don't have a single, solitary spell that augments our power regen or procs a ward on a target (not counting the AA Aura of Warding, which Defilers of course can also get), yet we don't feel the need to bring up your specialty spells in every balance discussion. We can argue till we're blue in the face which special, unique ability soandso has is "better" for a particular situation, but they'll always be just that...special and unique. Very hard to balance against each other, to the point where I'm surprised the devs are even willing to throw new spells in the mix anymore amid the cries of "nerf" if it's better than yours, or "weak" if it's not as good as soandso's. I'd really like to not get pulled into more discussions about our unique abilities when imbalance exists between spells we each get that were designed to be comparable.Regards,<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Here is the difference, once and for all.  I'm sure it won't mean anything to some folks, but the numbers are pretty hard for a logical person to deny.  I'm only comparing apples to apples here.  It's a fairly easy concept.Rapacity and Spirit of the Mammoth are equivalent buffs.  This is to say, they serve the same purpose in the buffing arsenals of the respective healers.SotM Master 1 buffs 75 Stamina, 75 Strength.  Rapacity Master 1 buffs 666 Hit Points and 75 Strength.Assume for a minute that SotM was allowed to push the Stamina cap and take FULL EFFECT on every tank.  This is NOT the current mechanic.  Currently the Stamina cap prevents SotM from yielding its full potential.  But let's pretend for a minute, k?A Fighter gains 5 HP for each point of Stamina.  Other classes gain less, but let's forget about that for a minute too.  75 Stamina x 5 HP per Stamina is 450 HP.Right there, a Mystic is already 216 HP behind the curve.  One buff, compared strait up in absolutely the BEST possible light.  Ok, -216.Foretelling and Portent are again two takes on the same buff.Foretelling Master 1 buffs 643 Hit Points and 738 Power.  Portent Master 1 buffs 964 Hit Points and 492 Power.  There's really not much to talk about there.  Another -321.In a PERFECT WORLD, where Stamina buffs took full effect always, a Tank is losing 537 HP by having a Mystic in his group given an equal Defiler.  I'm sure there are some people who think 537 HP is just a minor difference.  Ask your tank how he'd like to have another 500 HP.Unfortunately, we live in the rather imperfect world where most tanks are close enough to the Stamina cap that Stamina buffs do not take full effect.  The difference is probably more in a real world, raid situation where the tank is already very close to the Stamina cap.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not going to disagree that in most cases Defilers buff more HP than a Mystic.. but you also have to realize that in most cases a Mystic buffs more Power than a Defiler.. the disparity between our power buffing abilities is not as great as our HP buffs.. but when you think about it.. 100 power on a tank is just as important as 500HP on a tank.. Tanks tend to get hit a lot more than the power they use.. and for the really long fights, making sure you're tank has as much power as possible is just as important as getting their HP as high as possible..</p><p>Just wanted to point out that HP buffing is not the end-all and be-all for what you need on your tank.. there are a ton of factors that play into how well you succeed on a riad..</p>

[Eepop]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ff0000">Duntzzzz wrote:</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">OK.. after reading through the last few pages.. and skipping half the 'crap' in there.. as far as the MT spot.. well.. I have to agree with Broom on this one.. you guys now have 2 abilities (Bolster, and Torpor) that allow you to be more effective outsitde of the MT group than a Defiler.</font>Defiler Spell68 Bane of Protection  (<span>Scribed</span>) Vehemence 2.0s 0.5s 9.0s 0 A curse placed on an enemy that causes them to sometimes ward their target against the enemy's hostile spells and attacks.We have no analogous ability, so that would puts mystics only 1 spell up on defilers when outside the MT group.  I dont know defiler spells extremely well, for all I know there is another spell that would fit into this category. <font color="#ff0000">I'm not saying that you are not great for the MT spot, and hell we use a mystic for the MT role on 99% of our raids for the main reason that she is an awesome player.. ... because we are all great people, and great players.. </font>I am sure there are a number of raid forces that run mystics in the MT group, but it is almost always because there is not a similarly skilled or equiped defiler available.<p><font color="#ff0000">You guys buff Stats.. we buff HP/Power.. that's the difference between the classes.. and from what I recall, that has always been the difference between our classes..</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">There are plenty of other differences between the classes besides this one issue.  Do you really think changing the +sta on Spirit of Mammoth to be +hp would cause the classes to be exactly the same? </font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Or, what if we left SoM the same and just changed Avatar fromthe +str/+agi/+sta  to +attack power / +avoidance / +hpand changed Loathsome Seal from</font></font><span><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">-str/-agi/-sta to </font></font></span><span><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">-attack power / -avoidance / -hp</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Then there's no issue of reducing the difference between the classes, and it alleviates the problems of mystic buffs being too stat oriented. </font></font></span></p><p><font color="#ff0000"> and Don't forget that our 'warding buffs' are different as well.. yours blocks melee damage, and ours blocks magical damage.. </font></p><p>And also, your magical ward blocks twice as much damage as our physical ward does.  That taken into account these two buffs are well balanced, so I am not sure why it was brought up.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">You keep stating that we are better for the MT group because we buff raw HP / Power, and you guys have buffs that are inneffective on the tank if they're at or near the stat cap..</font><font color="#ff0000"></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">now you have (correction: 1 more than defiler) abilities that you can cast cross raid to help out and maximize the benefit TO THE RAID if you are outside of the MT role..</font></p><p>Giving us additional abilities outside of the MT group does nothing to address the problem of defilers being better for the MT group.</p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Banditman]

Mystics buff 246 Raw Power more than a Defiler.  That's it.If the general rule was 246 HP more for a Defiler, I don't think this conversation would even be started.Remember, 500 HP is a PERFECT WORLD scenario, a world where every bit of our STA buff takes full effect.  This is almost NEVER the case.  There are numerous tanks hitting the STA cap all by themselves, or getting so close to it as to make any STA buff irrelevant.A tank who caps his own STA stands to gain the full difference in raw HP from Rapacity and Portent.So, the actual range of HP we are talking about here is 500 to 1400 . . . call me crazy, but I don't think there are many raid leaders who would turn down 500 to 1400 HP in favor of 246 power.Maybe I'm crazy.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ff0000">Duntzzzz wrote:</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">OK.. after reading through the last few pages.. and skipping half the 'crap' in there.. as far as the MT spot.. well.. I have to agree with Broom on this one.. you guys now have 2 abilities (Bolster, and Torpor) that allow you to be more effective outsitde of the MT group than a Defiler.</font>Defiler Spell68 Bane of Protection  (<span>Scribed</span>) Vehemence 2.0s 0.5s 9.0s 0 A curse placed on an enemy that causes them to sometimes ward their target against the enemy's hostile spells and attacks.We have no analogous ability, so that would puts mystics only 1 spell up on defilers when outside the MT group.  I dont know defiler spells extremely well, for all I know there is another spell that would fit into this category.<hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Just want to clarify this for you.. Bane is a cool spell in theory.. but it is far from reliable.. the ward it places on the tank is in the range of approx 300-500hp (Don't have the spell in front of me right now).. some fights it will proc 3-4 times.. other fights it will not proc at all.. that's the issue with %chance proc abilities, as I'm sure you are well aware. Unlike Bolster, and Torpor which are directly cast on the tank, and can be placed there when they are needed the most. I would not count bane as an ability that makes us very usefull in it's current state, and there are discussions on this all over the defiler, and the Templar boards (Templars have a lot of the same types of abilities). With some tweaks this could be reliable.. but I know there are quite a few defilers who haven't even bothered with putting this on their hotbars due to its extremely un-predictable nature.

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div>Just want to clarify this for you.. Bane is a cool spell in theory.. but it is far from reliable.. the ward it places on the tank is in the range of approx 300-500hp (Don't have the spell in front of me right now).. some fights it will proc 3-4 times.. other fights it will not proc at all.. that's the issue with %chance proc abilities, as I'm sure you are well aware.  With some tweaks this could be reliable.. but I know there are quite a few defilers who haven't even bothered with putting this on their hotbars due to its extremely un-predictable nature.<hr></blockquote>If its broken, you have our full support in getting it fixed.  But it does exist, and does need to be counted in any comparisons.</span><div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><p>That's the problem.. it is not broken.. it does exactly what the spell description says it does.. 20% chance to proc a ward when the mob attacks..  this has always been the case, and I don't see this being changed any time soon..</p><p>Now if this ability was 100% chance to proc and the duration was something like 5-10 seconds, then, and only then would I or any other defiler consider this an important utility comparible to Torpor, or Bolster.. at the moment that is nowhere near the case..</p><p>Also do not forget that preventing melee damage by one of your passive buffs on every tick also greatly reduces the amount of damage a tank will recieve throughout the course of a fight.. spell damage that is warded by the Defiler version of this buff is almost not comparible due to the nature of how mobs cast their spells.. (Infrequently, and for very high damage)..</p><p>Mystics also get a poison ward which defilers do not have a comparable ability to (short term nox mit buff).</p><p>Really if you look at the OVERALL picture.. our classes are extremely similar, and as I and many others have stated either class is a viable choice for the MT position.</p>

[Banditman]

Runic Talisman is an 87 HP Ward, it's upgrade, let's say goes up to 100 HP.  Probably too high given the way scaling has worked out in T7, but whatever, I'll deal with 100.As you said, mobs hit infrequently, but for large amounts of damage.So, let's say you've got this mob hitting your tank.  It lands a blow every 6 seconds.  As long as it isnt more than 6 seconds between blows, this will work. If it's more than 6 seconds between blows, this scenario is going to be a best possible case and reality will be even less advantageous.So, the Ward regenerates every tick.  100 per, times 10 per minute = 1000 healed per minute or 17 HP/Sec.So, in the world of mobs doing 1000+ DPS, how helpful is 17 HPS ?Yea, not terribly.However, I wasn't comparing the overall advantages and disadvantages.  I was merely addressing the shortcomings of the Mystic class when the MT group is considered.In general, Defilers don't want to talk about that.  They try to point out how effective Mystics may or may not be elsewhere, they point out how Mystics have all these "other" things that make them great.  That's not the point at all.I want Mystics to be an equivalent choice.If Defilers feel they need additional utility to make them desireable in situations where they are not in the MT group, great.  You have a nice forum to discuss what you feel you need added.  You might even be able to garner support from Mystics if you present it well enough.Mystics are working to get their shortcomings addressed.  Perhaps Defilers should too.<div></div>

[Bolr]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I want Mystics to be an equivalent choice.<hr></blockquote>That seems like a good goal.It seems, though, that this thread is almost exclusively talking about buffing, specifically hit points. Defilers get the advantage there, so let's put that aside for a moment.I'm curious, since I don't know much about defilers, do defilers have anything to bring to the "MT group table" once the action starts? That is, are there any during-combat things they do that only have significant benefit if they're in the MT group?</span></div>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Bolrus wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I want Mystics to be an equivalent choice.<hr></blockquote>That seems like a good goal.It seems, though, that this thread is almost exclusively talking about buffing, specifically hit points. Defilers get the advantage there, so let's put that aside for a moment.I'm curious, since I don't know much about defilers, do defilers have anything to bring to the "MT group table" once the action starts? That is, are there any during-combat things they do that only have significant benefit if they're in the MT group?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Well, assuming you don't consider having the MT at consistently higher hitpoints (with a Defiler vs. Mystic) the full duration of a fight a "during-combat" benefit...Defilers have a group castable only DPS debuff/melee slow that procs when a person gets hit. This of course is ideal on the MT, especially in multi mob encounters that Defilers cannot debuff all at once. Since it cannot be cast outside of the Defiler's group, and offtanks aren't really needed much, it makes a Defiler more "useful" in the MT group as opposed to outside of it. As far as I know this spell is probably argument for Defilers in the MT group.Also, Defilers have a summoned regenerating ward pet (Spiritual Circle) that is arguably much more desirable than the Mystic's regen healing pet (Umbral Attendant). It lasts 3 times as long as attendant and wards for way more than attendant heals for. Both of these spells are group only.</span></div>

[bluejello]

It seems like a lot of people put all your "social importance" in grouping with the MT. As if you're only an important player if you are in the MT group. I don't see a single MT group clearing epicx4 raid zones, do you? No, it takes multiple groups. They're all important. So what if another class is better suited for the MT group. You're not a piece of trash because you don't play in the MT group.<div></div>

[Bolr]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Defilers have a group castable only DPS debuff/melee slow that procs when a person gets hit. This of course is ideal on the MT, especially in multi mob encounters that Defilers cannot debuff all at once. Since it cannot be cast outside of the Defiler's group, and offtanks aren't really needed much, it makes a Defiler more "useful" in the MT group as opposed to outside of it. As far as I know this spell is probably argument for Defilers in the MT group.</span></div><span><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span>Thanks, that was what I was looking for. I'm assuming this is the Tendrils of Horror spell.</blockquote></span></div>

[Banditman]

<div>The entire Tendrils line is irrelevant for the purposes of the MT group.  If the spell was raid wide, it would not change the desireability of a Defiler over a Mystic for MT group situations.</div><div> </div><div>This is not what makes a Defiler the clear cut choice for being in the MT group.</div><div> </div><div>There is only one goal for the MT group, make your MT as strong as possible.  You take whoever you can from your entire raid force, put them in one group with the goal of making your MT the strongest he can possibly be.</div><div> </div><div>In the world of raiding, most of the vital statistics for a tank are going to be at the SOE determined hard caps.  Unfortunately for Mystics, buffing vital statistics is our strong suit.</div>

[Docimodo]

<div>in reply to someone. a few things.</div><div> </div><div>Last time i checked there were more than 6 classes in this game.</div><div> </div><div>the main tank group has room for 6 people thats it.</div><div> </div><div>its impossible to balance classes without making everyone a grey copy of each other.</div><div> </div><div>diversity is something i like about this game. it has disadvantages such as this bickering but im sure we all still log in and enjoy the game dont we?</div><div> </div><div>a similar thing to this argument is like how plate wearing warriors invariably end up being the main tank. other tanks grumble and complain but it doesnt change anything really.</div><div> </div><div>on the topic of the post id like to correct you as you are wrong. good side pray to spirits for spell powers evil side shackle spirits and command them for their powers. the powers are themselves basically the same.</div>

[NimSul]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div>The entire Tendrils line is irrelevant for the purposes of the MT group.  If the spell was raid wide, it would not change the desireability of a Defiler over a Mystic for MT group situations.</div><div> </div><div>This is not what makes a Defiler the clear cut choice for being in the MT group.</div><div> </div><div>There is only one goal for the MT group, make your MT as strong as possible.  You take whoever you can from your entire raid force, put them in one group with the goal of making your MT the strongest he can possibly be.</div><div> </div><div>In the world of raiding, most of the vital statistics for a tank are going to be at the SOE determined hard caps.  Unfortunately for Mystics, buffing vital statistics is our strong suit.</div><hr></blockquote>I dont wanna be a part of this debate because i think its gone way beyond reasoneble arguments on bouth sides. But i would very much like to know who you are in game "Banditman" and what guild you belong to, i can see that ixnay is a defiler for a top raid guild and i can see that mystique is a mystic for a top raid guild, but have no idear who you are?

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div>The entire Tendrils line is irrelevant for the purposes of the MT group.  If the spell was raid wide, it would not change the desireability of a Defiler over a Mystic for MT group situations.</div><div> </div><div>This is not what makes a Defiler the clear cut choice for being in the MT group.</div><div> </div><div>There is only one goal for the MT group, make your MT as strong as possible.  You take whoever you can from your entire raid force, put them in one group with the goal of making your MT the strongest he can possibly be.</div><div> </div><div>In the world of raiding, most of the vital statistics for a tank are going to be at the SOE determined hard caps.  Unfortunately for Mystics, buffing vital statistics is our strong suit.</div><hr></blockquote>I dont wanna be a part of this debate because i think its gone way beyond reasoneble arguments on bouth sides. But i would very much like to know who you are in game "Banditman" and what guild you belong to, i can see that ixnay is a defiler for a top raid guild and i can see that mystique is a mystic for a top raid guild, but have no idear who you are?<hr></blockquote>Why does it matter so much? Is someone incapable of dealing with issues, concerns, or just unable to understand how EQ2 to works because they don't raid the most UBER raids in the game?I have come to respect BM's views, because he has been willing to spend the time and effort to know the Shaman archetype as well as others, and,  while I don't always agree -- it can't be denied he was one the first ones to extensively deal with the Ward issues.</span><div></div>

[Mystiq]

<span><blockquote><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div>The entire Tendrils line is irrelevant for the purposes of the MT group.  If the spell was raid wide, it would not change the desireability of a Defiler over a Mystic for MT group situations.</div><div> </div><div>This is not what makes a Defiler the clear cut choice for being in the MT group.</div><div> </div><div>There is only one goal for the MT group, make your MT as strong as possible.  You take whoever you can from your entire raid force, put them in one group with the goal of making your MT the strongest he can possibly be.</div><div> </div><div>In the world of raiding, most of the vital statistics for a tank are going to be at the SOE determined hard caps.  Unfortunately for Mystics, buffing vital statistics is our strong suit.</div><hr></blockquote>I dont wanna be a part of this debate because i think its gone way beyond reasoneble arguments on bouth sides. But i would very much like to know who you are in game "Banditman" and what guild you belong to, i can see that ixnay is a defiler for a top raid guild and i can see that mystique is a mystic for a top raid guild, but have no idear who you are?<hr></blockquote></span><div></div></blockquote></span>One's player name and the guild one belongs to is irrelevant to this discussion really. There are plenty of intelligent and rational posters in this thread that have not identified where they stand in the "uber" scheme of things, as well as several posters from affluent guilds whose posts are quite void of any useful information or comments. The only reason I disclose my background is to avoid unecessary questions like these, but it does not and should not affect the validity of my posts and shared information.<div></div>

[Banditman]

My in game persona has little or nothing to do with my knowledge of the game.  If your only knowledge of the game comes from your own personal experiences you are hopelessly close minded.Take a look at some of the people here who I think have presented intelligent and valid points:  Mystique, dump, Merrygrin, Eepop.They are WILDLY different in their in game avatars, but they are all equally important here.  I'm somewhere in the middle of them, not as elite as Mystique, not as casual as Merrygrin.  That doesn't make me right or wrong, nor does it make them right or wrong.I've probably disagreed with every single one of them at one point, but not because of what they have or haven't done in game.  I've probably agreed with every single one of them at some point, but again, not because of their in game accomplishments.A fact is a fact.  Data is what it is.  Everquest is, at it's very core, a numbers game.Some people are satisfied never even pondering the numbers behind the game.  They enjoy the game at it's face value and for them, I'm very happy.  I'm glad they can do that.For the other folks, like these people here, those numbers are important.  I have somewhat of a natural ability in that regard, and I use it.Just because I may or may not gather the data myself will in no way invalidate the data.  I've used data from just about everyone on this forum at one point or another.Who I am in game, is not who I am here.  You can either accept that or not, I don't care.<div></div>

[NimSul]

<div></div><p>I guess its not surpricing that noone ever got anywhere in this thread with the extreamly defensive stance that apparently is here. A simple neutral question breeds very defensive replies from 3 different people which doesnt contain a answer. Up to you guys i guess if you want to have a productive debate or just throw mud at eachother.</p><p>And there is a reason as to why every civilized debate/discussion is started with participants introducing themselves. You proberly want to find out why that is at some point in time.</p>

[thedu]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div><p>I guess its not surpricing that noone ever got anywhere in this thread with the extreamly defensive stance that apparently is here.A simple neutral question breeds very defensive replies from 3 different people which doesnt contain a answer.</p><p><font color="#ff0033">Actually it wasn't a neutral question. Your question, and the same one that Ixnay asked, was to simply invalidate BM's viewpoints because he/she is or isn't in a raid guild.</font></p><p>Up to you guys i guess if you want to have a productive debate or just throw mud at eachother.</p><p><font color="#ff0033">Not with an obviously disengious question that you tried.</font></p><p>And there is a reason as to why every civilized debate/discussion is started with participants introducing themselves. You proberly want to find out why that is at some point in time.</p><p><font color="#ff0033">Sure, but why is BM singled out. Why not me? I have never in any thread pointed out who my character is, what server, and what guild. There are tons of people with SIG's stating who, what, and where. How many have I actually looked at? 0.00001% of them.  Did their posts or viewpoints make it better or worse...not to me.</font></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0033">I'm sorry if this sounds defensive, but it isn't. I'm simply showing you what your question reflects.  As for some of the other responses, I had good amount of respect for Ixnay until he showed his hypocritical responses.</font></span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:57 AM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

<div></div><div></div><p>Wow.....ok.</p><p>This thread has pretty much run its course at this point, and most of us know it. However there are a couple latecomer posters that still ask about or discuss pertinent information which, if you'll scroll up, I tried to answer as best I could. You might also take this opportunity to go back and read the rest of this thread, like the first page, where you will see an interesting and level-headed discussion start before a member of the Defiler community comes over and starts namecalling.</p><p>Those of us in the Mystic community are not the ones coming here to both insult the tone of this thread and yet post irrelevant questions in an attempt to call somebody out and, one can only assume, attempt to discredit them. In case you're wondering....that was you NimSul.</p><p>I think you need to get your facts straight on just who is responsible for the bulk of the mud throwing around here, hun.</p><p>Message Edited by Mystique on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:43 AM</span></p>

[Kimage]

<div></div><p>Ok but correct me if I'm wrong - but didnt ya'll CHOOSE to be a Mystic instead of a Defiler?</p><p>I personally do my homework before chosing a class.</p>

[Banditman]

<div></div><p>Many of us CHOSE to be a Mystic in November of 2004.  To say that things have changed since then is a pretty monsterous understatement.</p><p>It's not like we log in every day now and at character select CHOOSE Mystic.</p>

[Eepop]

The game has changed drasticly several times since many of us made our mystics.  Its not like we made them yesterday and are complaining. My character was made with plenty of research, and I read more than you can imagine. I chose the shaman that had more buffs, and was more defensive in nature.If over a year later, the class description remains the same, and the ammount of types of spells remains the same, but the effects are not working as intended, you can bet we are going to work to get that corrected.<div></div>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kimage wrote:<div></div><p>Ok but correct me if I'm wrong - but didnt ya'll CHOOSE to be a Mystic instead of a Defiler?</p><p>I personally do my homework before chosing a class.</p><hr></blockquote>It's been my main from day one of this game. Ok, one month after it came out.  But the game has gone through many changes. Live Update 13 and Desert of Flames essentially redid many (and I mean many) of the original concepts.</span><div></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kimage wrote:<div></div><p>Ok but correct me if I'm wrong - but didnt ya'll CHOOSE to be a Mystic instead of a Defiler?</p><p>I personally do my homework before chosing a class.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Must... kill... thread...</p><p>Thread... must... die...</p><p>Too... many... ignorant... defilers...</p><p>Can't... hold... them... all... off...</p><p>Noooooooooooooooo.....</p><blockquote> </blockquote><p> </p>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kimage wrote:<div></div><p>Ok but correct me if I'm wrong - but didnt ya'll CHOOSE to be a Mystic instead of a Defiler?</p><p>I personally do my homework before chosing a class.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Must... kill... thread...</p><p>Thread... must... die...</p><p>Too... many... ignorant... defilers...</p><p>Can't... hold... them... all... off...</p><p>Noooooooooooooooo.....</p><blockquote> </blockquote><p> </p><hr></blockquote>They didn't say they were a defiler..<span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span><div></div>

[paisan]

<div></div><p>Sorry, i infered it from the icon.</p><p> </p>

[thedu]

Turns out he/she is playing defiler (from post on defiler board), but didn't know that, and didn't want to assume anything.....you know what Benny Hill said about assuming <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>