Mystical Musings - the Balance issues

[Banditman]

<div></div><div></div>This section is going to be kinda fuzzy.  The recent changes to Bolster are a balance issue - they were intended but perhaps un-necessarily harsh.  Perhaps it's an ability that simply isn't as strong as it should be.  There are a lot of things that will fall in this catagory.What doesn't belong here is something that doesn't currently exist in game.  So, something like the ability to kill any mob once per hour or something like that would be a Wish List item, not a balance issue.  I'm going to probably have to shuffle some things between here and the Wish List and vice versa.So, list away.  I'll juggle and edit as necessary.1.  Bolster nerf.  Ok, explain to me how a decrease in effectiveness the likes of which recently hit Bolster can be defined as "slight".  Are we back to the nerf first ask questions later stage?  Bolster had been in it's form for the entire beta period, during which we can only ASSUME it was tested and deemed to be appropriate.2.  Stamina buffs are, in the endgame, not nearly as valuable as a raw HP buff.  Since most of Mystics buffs revolve around Stamina, this is a huge problem for Mystics.  We would like some consideration given to this.  Some possible solutions include allowing Stamina buffs to raise the cap.  By allowing Stamina buffs to raise the cap, you give Mystics back a decent amount of desireability since the full impact of their buffs in this tree will be felt.3.  Shaman (both Mystics and Defilers) did <b>not</b> receive a new Group version of their specialty heal at Level 70.  This clearly breaks the standard spell progression that has been in place and further it breaks from the progression that every other Priest in the game has followed.  There has been no explanation of this.4.  Reserved.5.  Reserved.6.  Reserved.7.  Reserved.8.  Reserved.9.  Reserved.10.  Reserved.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:39 AM</span></p>

[Eepop]

I think we should address the reason the Bolster Nerf hit us so hard...The fact is that our buffs meant to make a tank sturdier all revolve around buffing stamina.  Stamina has a cap.  Defilers do not have this issue.Between Spirit of Mammoth and Ancient Avatar, theres so much +stamina on the tank its doing next to nothing. And it only becomes worse as the level cap increases.  The +stamina amount we add goes up, but its always in a higher percent effected by diminishing returns.This causes us to buff hp on a tank inferior to a defiler.  So Bolster became our way to offset that for a short period of time.It is very reminiscent of what happened with Haze.  Something else is broken, so we rely on another tool as a crutch.  Then they take our crutch, break it in half and laugh at us. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I think the underlying problems with Mystics are related to a very unclear concept of the sub class division.What is the Mystics sphere of greatest influence?  What is the Defilers?I suppose my concept was that the Mystic was the buffer / defensive side and the Defiler was the debuff / offensive side.  I believe this is a view many of us share, we'll see.I am not sure whether getting a clear definition is a wish list or balance issue, hopefully we can discuss it and decide.<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

   During beta, we were beta buffed to level 70 to test some raid content. We were given most tier7 masters. My level 70 Guardian MT was capped on all three physical stats using only t6 armor.Oh yeah... that was before Bolster was applied. So raidwise, this spell is of limited use, other then the max health increase and the slight heal from that.<div></div>

[GidionSWE]

<div></div>I agree the root to our problems isnt so much the nerf to bolster that was rly more of an bandaid fix we had for a short amount of time the real problem is that defilers buff HP while we buff sta thats allways capped

[ShadowyStingray]

I apologize if this isn't the right place to be asking this, but was an explanation ever given as to why shaman ended up getting an upgrade to their noxious/health group buff at level 70 instead of a group ward?  Are we to assume that this is just a shift in the progression of these spells and that we'll get an upgraded one whenever the level cap is raised again, or is that the end of that line?  Was that due to balance?  Every other priest receives an upgraded group specialty heal at 70 but shaman...  I am curious at minimum as to why they chose to do this, since on the surface it seems unfair that all other priests get an upgraded tool that is what they specialize in at that level while we do not.  Granted, I am not at the end game to be able to tell if it really impacts shaman's effectiveness or balance, but it still seems like we should have gotten an upgrade to the group ward, even if it was minimal over the previous version and if for no other reason than to keep upgrade consistency with the other priests.<div></div>

[Arfiniel]

<div></div><div></div>sorry wrong thread<p>Message Edited by Arfiniel on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:36 PM</span></p>

[fitzerelli]

<div></div><div></div><p>the whole balance prob is because of the sta vs hp buffs, i dont understand why both classes cant buff hp (sta is capped and not hard to hit - hp is not capped and unlimited), they would still be very different classes:</p><p>defilers have bigger heals but longer cast times</p><p>defilers buff more disease,  mystics buff more poison</p><p>defiler has slightly better debuffs, and a little more offensive capabilities</p><p>defiler has an anti stun, mystics have a cure all</p><p>as a raiding mystic, i find that the classes are very balanced in debuffing, resist buffs, and most aspects - except that the defilers hp buffs own mystic stamina buffs (by a longshot). how many mystics were kicked outta mt groups when dof came?, i bet the number is staggering - that should prove the balance prob right there. i am not saying we should buff the exact same amount of hp but it should be at least close. i would trade bolster right outta my spell book if i could have constant hp buffs instead of constant sta buffs as that is the reason we will never be picked if a defilers available, ever</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by fitzerelli on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 AM</span></p>

[Thatdumbg]

   Currently there is no benefit to upgraded group cures above about the adept 1 level or so. I find this slightly annoying, I wish they could make it beneficial somehow.<div></div>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:   Currently there is no benefit to upgraded group cures above about the adept 1 level or so. I find this slightly annoying, I wish they could make it beneficial somehow.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm moving that to wish list.  It affects all Priests equally, so technically it's "balanced", just sucky.</span></div>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>fitzerelli wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>the whole balance prob is because of the sta vs hp buffs, i dont understand why both classes cant buff hp (sta is capped and not hard to hit - hp is not capped and unlimited), they would still be very different classes:</p><p>defilers have bigger heals but longer cast times</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The key here is not cast time, but cast + recast.  The true measure of healing ability is HPS, Hit Points per Second.  Regardless of how long the cast takes, if the end result is big enough it will be worth it.  Look at CH in EQ1.</font></p><p>defilers buff more disease,  mystics buff more poison</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The difference here is so minor as to be unimportant.  And frankly, that's fine.</font></p><p>defiler has slightly better debuffs, and a little more offensive capabilities</p><p><font color="#ff0000">If you think the difference is only "slight", perhaps you could get a job at SOE.  It's about as "slight" as the recent nerf to Bolster.  32% to all stats . . . need I say more?</font></p><p>defiler has an anti stun, mystics have a cure all</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The difference here is that the Defiler can cast his <b>while stunned</b> and it hits his <b>entire group</b>.  Mystics can cure a single target of everything, but not while stunned.</font></p><p>as a raiding mystic, i find that the classes are very balanced in debuffing, resist buffs, and most aspects - except that the defilers hp buffs own mystic stamina buffs (by a longshot). how many mystics were kicked outta mt groups when dof came?, i bet the number is staggering - that should prove the balance prob right there. i am not saying we should buff the exact same amount of hp but it should be at least close. i would trade bolster right outta my spell book if i could have constant hp buffs instead of constant sta buffs as that is the reason we will never be picked if a defilers available, ever</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by fitzerelli on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Darksong]

Why is it that all I ever considtently see here is hate for defilers and envy for what they have why not focus on what mystics have and work to make things there own insted of takeing from what others have?

[Banditman]

<div></div>I might ask the same thing of Defilers.  It was a Defiler who spearheaded the effort to get Bolster nerfed.After six months of listening to Defilers tell the world how superior they are to Mystics, Mystics are pretty fed up.  Sorry if that seems negative to you, but perhaps you might look at what Defilers have been doing first.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:18 AM</span></p>

[Darksong]

The defiler board is a ghost town lol Hardly anyone posts there compared to here what got bolster nerfed was sony not a defiler.

[Banditman]

You are wrong.I have some knowledge of the situation beyond what you do.It has nothing to do with the Defiler boards.<div></div>

[fitzerelli]

<div></div><p>ask tanks which they would prefer hp buffs or sta buffs?, ill bet everythin i got they pick hp buffs evertime hands down, that is the point i was trying to make by posting above.</p><p>other differences between the classes i can live with but hp vs sta makes the mystic inferior</p>

[Kyin]

<div>"Why is it that all I ever considtently see here is hate for defilers and envy for what they have why not focus on what mystics have and work to make things there own insted of takeing from what others have?" -Darksong-</div><div> </div><div>Good question why did the defilers hate on the mystics buff and envy it to the point where it got nerfed. </div><div> </div><div>We are not asking for any nerfs to defilers like defiles asked of the mystics.  We on the other hand want our spell brought back up to what it was doing or near enough, and for our STA buffs to be looked at and balanced.  I dont hate defiles, I just want each class to be balanced as much as can be so one is not 100% better than the other.  Currently the STA is the biggest problem followed by your over zelous demand for blood when it comes to our spell.</div><div> </div><div>Personaly I go read the conj and necro board I dont see the necros calling for blood agaist the conj 65 spell.  Which is much nicer than the necros.</div><div> </div><div>But hey if you want to come over here and state something that is not true then by all means, but the truth is even with the nerf to bolster and before the nerf.  Defilers and mystics were not balanced.  Defilers still buff better in all situations while a Mystic buffs better with a poorly armed tank.  There are alot of solutions to this problem we just need SoE to take the time and care enough to do something about it.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[fitzerelli]

<div>Why is it that all I ever considtently see here is hate for defilers and envy for what they have why not focus on what mystics have and work to make things there own insted of takeing from what others have?</div><div> </div><div>darksong have you even looked at the defiler forums?, ala the posts</div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=8435">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=8435</a></div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=7714">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=7714</a></div><div> </div><div>grats defilers you are once again the strongest mt healers in the game wb</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kyin wrote:<div>"Why is it that all I ever considtently see here is hate for defilers and envy for what they have why not focus on what mystics have and work to make things there own insted of takeing from what others have?" -Darksong-</div><div> </div><div>Good question why did the defilers hate on the mystics buff and envy it to the point where it got nerfed. </div><div> </div><div>We are not asking for any nerfs to defilers like defiles asked of the mystics.  We on the other hand want our spell brought back up to what it was doing or near enough, and for our STA buffs to be looked at and balanced.  I dont hate defiles, I just want each class to be balanced as much as can be so one is not 100% better than the other.  Currently the STA is the biggest problem followed by your over zelous demand for blood when it comes to our spell.</div><div> </div><div>Personaly I go read the conj and necro board I dont see the necros calling for blood agaist the conj 65 spell.  Which is much nicer than the necros.</div><div> </div><div>But hey if you want to come over here and state something that is not true then by all means, but the truth is even with the nerf to bolster and before the nerf.  Defilers and mystics were not balanced.  Defilers still buff better in all situations while a Mystic buffs better with a poorly armed tank.  There are alot of solutions to this problem we just need SoE to take the time and care enough to do something about it.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>????????Here we go again, more misguided "holier than thou" type of attitudes.I don't care WHO has WHAT ability, if it's overpowered, I will support nerfing it.  If it's underpowered, I will support fixing it.  The point here is that saying "I am not asking for X class to be nerfed" doesn't make you a better person or player, it just makes you short-sighted.  This "Don't nerf" disclaimer seriously pisses me off.  No one has a "right" to any ability being a certain way.  Makes no sense at all how everything we talk about class balance the words "don't nerf" come up.  What kind of balance is it if you simply increase the underdog every time?With that said, I never thought Bolster was overpowered.  Defile is just a stupid, stupid spell to give to a healer class as their class defining spell.  Bolster was an example of a good implementation of an ability that fit the class, and as a spell of our counterparts, it was the logical choice to put against Defile when looking at whether Defile is appropriate for our class.As you may have noticed, all we have still is an AE DPS spell - I still say they should've let the whining for DPS Templars have it, I want something that is healer-like.</span><div></div>

[fitzerelli]

<div></div><div>sokolov - I don't care WHO has WHAT ability, if it's overpowered, I will support nerfing it.  If it's underpowered, I will support fixing it.</div><div> </div><div>then sokolov would you support lessinin of defiles hp buffs, or changes to mystic sta buffs? because thats where the overpowered problem lies</div><div> </div><div>sokolov - What kind of balance is it if you simply increase the underdog every time?</div><div> </div><div>so what are you trying to say here, just leave the underdog the underdog always? is that better balance? i guess so if you are a defiler</div><div> </div><div>dont mean to be so harsh here but its just extrememly frustrating</div><p>Message Edited by fitzerelli on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:37 PM</span></p>

[Sokolov]

If it can be demonstrated to me that something is overpowered and I agree with it, I will support it.  For instance, as much as I enjoyed my Pre-LU13 Zerker that could out-dps any class I didn't think that was fair nor did I really grumble when it was changed (I was annoyed tho that zerkers didn't 'zerk anymore, but that's another issue).  I was also a proponent of the proc fix, and I will also now be supporting fixing rangers (whose damage was largely dependent on procs).In any case, my point isn't classes shouldn't be fixed, of course they should, but both overpowered stuff AND underpowered stuff should be fixed.  The mentality that "my class shouldn't be nerfed!" and "fixes mean increases!" is silly and hurts the game in the long run.  Additionally, the fact that people even HAVE disclaimers which say "I am not asking for a nerf but..." tells me there is a serious problem with the way we see game balance (specifically a selfish one of wanting more).In conclusion, yes, the nerfphobia is extremely frustrating.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div>I might ask the same thing of Defilers.  It was a Defiler who spearheaded the effort to get Bolster nerfed.After six months of listening to Defilers tell the world how superior they are to Mystics, Mystics are pretty fed up.  Sorry if that seems negative to you, but perhaps you might look at what Defilers have been doing first.<hr></blockquote><p>I've just read through some of your posts in this forum for the first time.  It seems to me you have invested significant effort and time stirring up mystics and getting them to feel sorry for themselves and victimized, and for no good reason in my opinion.  Defilers telling the world how superior they are to Mystics?  None that I know think that way, and if you do, I honestly feel sorry for you.  If you are referring to posts by a poster named Radical Edward with that comment, let me assure you that the majority of defilers consider him an embarrassment.  He does not speak for us in any way, but nor do I, posters are only individuals and not class representatives.</p><p>I presume you are referring to me in your first sentence.  Let me disabuse you of the notion that I spearheaded anything.  I had no private communications with anyone about this issue.  I have zero influence with anyone at SoE.  All I did was provide facts, sir.  And it was facts and the reality of the game that lead to these adjustments, not me.  Apparently you were not able to compete with the facts and the truth, but prefer instead to wallow in your pity party.</p><p>What you have succeeded in doing, with your endless campaign of misinformation and spiteful efforts to make your class superior to mine without ever just admitting that, is to motivate me to invest an equal amount of time countering your efforts and misinformation.</p><p>You'll be seeing more of me on these boards, sir.</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[SweetSyc]

<div>Let's not derail the thread please. This is a thread for mystics to talk about possible balance issues.</div>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>SweetSycho wrote:<div>Let's not derail the thread please. This is a thread for mystics to talk about possible balance issues.</div><hr></blockquote>you obviously have no idea what youre tlaking about, defilers and mystics are pretty balance with good and bad between both class. You obviously have no idea how important debuffs are in a raid, and mystic is one of the best if not the best debuffer in game. To over look that is just ignorant. Yes Bolster got nerf but to say that a spell the make or break your class is just dumb. Look at what defilers get for lvl 65 and youll see what a useless spell look like. You guys gain an awesome spell (still is) for your 65. Pls dont forget that.<p>Message Edited by radical_EDWARD on <span class="date_text">03-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p>

[FelixDomesticus]

Mystic SOLO dps is plain pathetic. Depending on the time of the day I may have to wait for a group over an hour and it would be so nice to be actually solo something while waiting for group. Yes, I know that technically we can solo, but as some classes solo 4-5 times faster  I find it lame.<div></div>

[Mystiq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div>I might ask the same thing of Defilers.  It was a Defiler who spearheaded the effort to get Bolster nerfed.After six months of listening to Defilers tell the world how superior they are to Mystics, Mystics are pretty fed up.  Sorry if that seems negative to you, but perhaps you might look at what Defilers have been doing first.<hr></blockquote><p>I've just read through some of your posts in this forum for the first time.  It seems to me you have invested significant effort and time stirring up mystics and getting them to feel sorry for themselves and victimized, and for no good reason in my opinion.  Defilers telling the world how superior they are to Mystics?  None that I know think that way, and if you do, I honestly feel sorry for you.  If you are referring to posts by a poster named Radical Edward with that comment, let me assure you that the majority of defilers consider him an embarrassment.  He does not speak for us in any way, but nor do I, posters are only individuals and not class representatives.</p><p>I presume you are referring to me in your first sentence.  Let me disabuse you of the notion that I spearheaded anything.  I had no private communications with anyone about this issue.  I have zero influence with anyone at SoE.  All I did was provide facts, sir.  And it was facts and the reality of the game that lead to these adjustments, not me.  Apparently you were not able to compete with the facts and the truth, but prefer instead to wallow in your pity party.</p><p>What you have succeeded in doing, with your endless campaign of misinformation and spiteful efforts to make your class superior to mine without ever just admitting that, is to motivate me to invest an equal amount of time countering your efforts and misinformation.</p><p>You'll be seeing more of me on these boards, sir.</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Your opinion doesn't matter here Ixnay, so go ahead and waste your time and effort. Radical edward can go ahead and do the same really. I don't go posting on the Defiler boards thinking anyone there cares about my opinion, or any other Mystic's. Nobody here has convinced the Mystic community that we are inferior to you, it's rather the opposite. Banditman, myself and anyone else has the right to stand up for our class on our class boards and discuss matters that are important to us.</span></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowyStingray wrote:I apologize if this isn't the right place to be asking this, but was an explanation ever given as to why shaman ended up getting an upgrade to their noxious/health group buff at level 70 instead of a group ward?  Are we to assume that this is just a shift in the progression of these spells and that we'll get an upgraded one whenever the level cap is raised again, or is that the end of that line?  Was that due to balance?  Every other priest receives an upgraded group specialty heal at 70 but shaman...  I am curious at minimum as to why they chose to do this, since on the surface it seems unfair that all other priests get an upgraded tool that is what they specialize in at that level while we do not.  Granted, I am not at the end game to be able to tell if it really impacts shaman's effectiveness or balance, but it still seems like we should have gotten an upgrade to the group ward, even if it was minimal over the previous version and if for no other reason than to keep upgrade consistency with the other priests.<div></div><hr></blockquote>It's a bug and not ALL hlrs get the appropriate upgrade; furies have the same problem shamans have and at one point wardens had the issue as well, but for some reasno the devs fixed the warden spell but not the shamans' and furys' ones. I would say just keep posting and /bugging it because it IS obviously a very big bug.

[Banditman]

<div></div><p>Funny how I mention that and lo and behold the tip of the spear himself shows up.</p><p>You've got no credibility here Ixnay.  You brought rhetoric and no facts.</p><p>Until you prove, with facts and data, how "equal" Mystics are, you've got no legs to stand on. </p><p>The fact that the Defiler community would intrude here upon discussions shows just how much class they really have.</p><p>Yea, we may threaten your position in the MT group because we're tired of being second fiddle.  Get over it.  Balance is coming, you're looking at the start.</p><p> </p>

[NimSul]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span>Your opinion doesn't matter here Ixnay, so go ahead and waste your time and effort. Radical edward can go ahead and do the same really. I don't go posting on the Defiler boards thinking anyone there cares about my opinion, or any other Mystic's. Nobody here has convinced the Mystic community that we are inferior to you, it's rather the opposite. Banditman, myself and anyone else has the right to stand up for our class on our class boards and discuss matters that are important to us.</span></div><hr></blockquote>How are you gonna have a constructive post about balancing between mystics and defilers if one dont care about the others oppinions? Your never gonna have balance if its just mystics talking, you need bouth.

[Thatdumbg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>How are you gonna have a constructive post about balancing between mystics and defilers if one dont care about the others oppinions? Your never gonna have balance if its just mystics talking, you need bouth.<hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, I didn't notice the topic of the post referring to defilers at all.</span></div>

[NimSul]

<div></div>In order for something to be "balanced" it has to be compared to something, you cannot have a stand alone thing be "balanced" or "overpowered" or "underpowered". It has to be "balanced" against something. Now that you know a lil bit more about balance consider what you want to balance mystics against? Guardians? rangers? wizards? If this thread wasnt referring to defilers as the thing to be balanced against its useless.

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>In order for something to be "balanced" it has to be compared to something, you cannot have a stand alone thing be "balanced" or "overpowered" or "underpowered". It has to be "balanced" against something. Now that you know a lil bit more about balance consider what you want to balance mystics against? Guardians? rangers? wizards? If this thread wasnt referring to defilers as the thing to be balanced against its useless.<hr></blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.

[Mystiq]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div><span>Your opinion doesn't matter here Ixnay, so go ahead and waste your time and effort. Radical edward can go ahead and do the same really. I don't go posting on the Defiler boards thinking anyone there cares about my opinion, or any other Mystic's. Nobody here has convinced the Mystic community that we are inferior to you, it's rather the opposite. Banditman, myself and anyone else has the right to stand up for our class on our class boards and discuss matters that are important to us.</span></div><hr></blockquote>How are you gonna have a constructive post about balancing between mystics and defilers if one dont care about the others oppinions? Your never gonna have balance if its just mystics talking, you need bouth.<hr></blockquote>I do care about others' opinions. I was pretty specific when I said whose I did not care about. I care about the opinions of rational, community minded individuals with pride in their class, not melodramatic chicken little's with a superiority comlplex. Ixnay has proven enough times to me, shaman related discussion or not, that he has a predilection for theatrics and loves to accuse others of misinformation and poor reading skills when he himself often fails to grasp the facts of the argument himself.Additionally, I can only seem to remember posts in the Mystic forum by radical edward in a thread where most of us agreed to the preferability of Defilers over Mystics in raid situations. Pretty much just stopped in on the thread to say <i>yes we're better k thx u for agreeing!</i> or to create needless arguments or offer valueless sarcasm.This and similar threads in the Mystic board started by Banditman is to get a feel for how the rest of our community feels about our class and its place in the world. Once we get a good and true finger on the pulse, then we'll be open to some views and ideas from the other half. Please let us commence with our discussion in peace.</span></div>

[Thatdumbg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>In order for something to be "balanced" it has to be compared to something, you cannot have a stand alone thing be "balanced" or "overpowered" or "underpowered". It has to be "balanced" against something. Now that you know a lil bit more about balance consider what you want to balance mystics against? Guardians? rangers? wizards? If this thread wasnt referring to defilers as the thing to be balanced against its useless.<hr></blockquote> As a matter of fact, yes, I do believe mystics should be balanced against every class you stated above and then some. To try to claim anything else is short-sighted. Trying to balance between two classes is only part of the picture. While defilers are PART of the picture, they are only part. We are talking about balance issues that affect mystics. If the sole intended point of discussion was another "defiler vs. mystic" thread, it would be titled so.</span></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>In order for something to be "balanced" it has to be compared to something, you cannot have a stand alone thing be "balanced" or "overpowered" or "underpowered". It has to be "balanced" against something. Now that you know a lil bit more about balance consider what you want to balance mystics against? Guardians? rangers? wizards? If this thread wasnt referring to defilers as the thing to be balanced against its useless.<hr></blockquote> As a matter of fact, yes, I do believe mystics should be balanced against every class you stated above and then some. To try to claim anything else is short-sighted. Trying to balance between two classes is only part of the picture. While defilers are PART of the picture, they are only part. We are talking about balance issues that affect mystics. If the sole intended point of discussion was another "defiler vs. mystic" thread, it would be titled so.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Are defilers included in "every class?"  If so, then the thread implicitly includes defilers and your previous statement is false.Oh, by the way, here's a shovel.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:03 PM</span></p>

[Thatdumbg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div>In order for something to be "balanced" it has to be compared to something, you cannot have a stand alone thing be "balanced" or "overpowered" or "underpowered". It has to be "balanced" against something. Now that you know a lil bit more about balance consider what you want to balance mystics against? Guardians? rangers? wizards? If this thread wasnt referring to defilers as the thing to be balanced against its useless.<hr></blockquote> As a matter of fact, yes, I do believe mystics should be balanced against every class you stated above and then some. To try to claim anything else is short-sighted. Trying to balance between two classes is only part of the picture. While defilers are PART of the picture, they are only part. We are talking about balance issues that affect mystics. If the sole intended point of discussion was another "defiler vs. mystic" thread, it would be titled so.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Are defilers included in "every class?"  If so, then the thread implicitly includes defilers and your previous statement is false.Oh, by the way, here's a shovel.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>You tapdance about as well as a paraplegic goat doped-out on Ketamine. But, that was a nice attempt. Anyhow...I've spent some time thinking about it, and other then the issues that have been listed, I don't see much that needs balancing (although, I'm hardly omniscient =P). I think stat buffs across the board should probably be looked at; we aren't the only class that is having problems with them (albeit ours is a much more localized problem). Quite frankly, I find the amount of stats on T7 raid fabled to be astounding; it bodes very well for classes who are trying to attain cap on more then one stat. However, stat buffs just don't give the kind of umph that I like. I personally think they should go with the original plan of making stat cap 10x level, or itemize and grant abilities in such a manner to make stat caps normally unreachable; things like the attribute boost on bolster might have more of an impact then. Of course, making buffs or items not count towards the cap could also accomplish this. Either way, I only foresee the problem growing as we head into the next expansion.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div><span>I've always had a problem with the apparent lack of planning on the Devs part when it comes to itemization.  Theoritically, if the cap increases by X per level, then every tier's items should increase by Y/Z per tier, where X, Y and Z are fixed porportionally.  But it seems more like every time a tier comes out they have a new formula.  Have you seen the T7 Fabled that gives over +120 in stats?  That's just sick.We've also seen evidence that crafted items are made on a whim by the tradeskill dev.  Recently he was seen saying something along the lines of stats are more important than resists to justify the lack of resists on crafted items.~For the record, even tho I am a proponent for using nerfs in balancing when appropriate, I did not believe Bolster was overpowered and needed a nerf.  Bolster is in fact exactly the type of ability I had hoped EQ2 would include - powerful, short duration while having significant implications.  If you have a lot of these kinds of abilities, then it becomes increasingly important that one makes good situational choices in casting, rather than having your cast order dictated by recast timers.In any case tho, I think as players we like to think we know as much if not more than the devs, when the reality is likely the opposite - so maybe they know something we don't here.</span></div>

[Kaharthemad]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.<hr></blockquote>well  there goes any credibility this mental midget had with me. Anyone that uses dude speak like that in my opinion has the IQ of a crushed avocado.

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.<hr></blockquote>well  there goes any credibility this mental midget had with me. Anyone that uses dude speak like that in my opinion has the IQ of a crushed avocado.<hr></blockquote>It was accurate tho.But then, I am sure a mental giant such as yourself would recognize that a person's ability to communicate does not necessarily correlate with their IQ.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:22 AM</span></p>

[Kaharthemad]

<div>A little change to Attendant line. Make it more verstile then it is now please. Yes this spell is one that I use alot but it would be nice to add a cure to it even sacrificing the ability of the dang thing to follow you around. Also how about some level level 70 love on this part.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Kaharthemad]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.<hr></blockquote>well  there goes any credibility this mental midget had with me. Anyone that uses dude speak like that in my opinion has the IQ of a crushed avocado.<hr></blockquote>It was accurate tho.But then, I am sure a mental giant such as yourself would recognize that a person's ability to communicate does not necessarily correlate with their IQ.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><span><font color="#000000"><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Actually, to accurately relay information is a key note to showing one person's Intelligence. Take you for instance, yes, you can type on a keyboard, yes, you are able to relay data and, amazingly enough you can get your point across.  However, since your failure to grasp the fact I was not talking about your post, you have shown your own intelligence or rather lack thereof.  When you learn the key ingredients of communication please come back and discuss them on our board. Preferably not on a thread that is meant for the relaying of information about the mystic class, and our deep desire to turn Defilers into car park attendants and stable boys.</font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"></font></span> </p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">My point was, which you so blatantly missed, is that using terminology to replace the English language does have a tendency to alter one's perception as to how intelligent the person that is writing  'dude speak' actually is. </font></span></p><p></span></p></font><p>Message Edited by Kaharthemad on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:52 AM</span></p>

[Sokolov]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<blockquote> </blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.<hr></blockquote>well  there goes any credibility this mental midget had with me. Anyone that uses dude speak like that in my opinion has the IQ of a crushed avocado.<hr></blockquote>It was accurate tho.But then, I am sure a mental giant such as yourself would recognize that a person's ability to communicate does not necessarily correlate with their IQ.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><span><p><span><font color="#000000"><font color="#ffffff">Actually, to accurately relay information is a key note to showing one person's Intelligence. Take you for instance, yes, you can type on a keyboard, yes, you are able to relay data and, amazingly enough you can get your point across.  However, since your failure to grasp the fact I was not talking about your post, you have shown your own intelligence or rather lack thereof.  When you learn the key ingredients of communication please come back and discuss them on our board. Preferably not on a thread that is meant for the relaying of information about the mystic class, and our deep desire to turn Defilers into car park attendants and stable boys.</font></font></span></p><p><span></span><font color="#000000"> </font></p><p><span><font color="#000000"><font color="#ffffff">My point was, which you so blatantly missed, is that using terminology to replace the English language does have a tendency to alter one's perception as to how intelligent that person is. </font></font></span></p></span><hr></blockquote>The inability to recognize that language evolves is problematic for you, it appears.  Your preferred method of communication is not necessarily the most efficient or relevant.Radical_Edward accurately expressed a sentiment by using the term "pwnzor," a sentiment that is not readily expressed with such succinctness in common verbage.  In fact, would it not be more accurate to say that a person who cannot (or will not) use a certain language subset to be handicapped in comparison to one who has the ability to use both?And, of course, clear communication is generally better than being wordy as an attempt to seem intelligent.  If you do not wish to have a discussion with another person on an issue, I suggest you do not bring it up, especially not in a thread </span><span><span><font color="#000000"><font color="#ffffff">meant for the relaying of information about the mystic class.</font></font></span></span><span>It should also be noted that disagreeing with a point does not necessarily mean a person missed it either, as is the case here.</span></div>

[Cyanrav]

<div>There are many Mystics out there such as myself. We rarly comment on the boards. We are the silent majority. We do not have the time or the energy to get into game and figure out the problems of our class. We know they are there, because something works one day, but not the next. We do not have the TIME to sit down and parse, go over logs etc.</div><div> </div><div>Fortunatly, the Mystic silent majority has people like Banditman (I name Banditman because he is the most visual on these boards, but there are others). This person has taken the time to "spearhead" the Mystic movement and taken the time to be our advocate and voice. For those of you that would, not sure how to say this in "dewdspeak" so I'll have to say it in good old fashion english, degrade and denigrate his very proactive stance, I say to you, quietly but with much verve, go away. We, the silent majority, have great respect for Banditman and his unflinching support of us. We support him.</div><div> </div><div>Banditman, from the silent majority, a Heart felt THANK YOU. We dont' tell you enough, that you are very much appreciated! Keep up the good work!</div><div> </div><div>Cyanravyn Sionadell</div><div>Full time Mommy</div><div>Full time Nurse</div><div>Full time Mini-Farm worker</div><div>Part time Mystic</div>

[Kaharthemad]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div><span>The inability to recognize that language evolves is problematic for you, it appears.�  Your preferred method of communication is not necessarily the most efficient or relevant.Radical_Edward accurately expressed a sentiment by using the term "pwnzor," a sentiment that is not readily expressed with such succinctness in common verbage.�  In fact, would it not be more accurate to say that a person who cannot (or will not) use a certain language subset to be handicapped in comparison to one who has the ability to use both?And, of course, clear communication is generally better than being wordy as an attempt to seem intelligent.�  If you do not wish to have a discussion with another person on an issue, I suggest you do not bring it up, especially not in a thread </span><span><span><font color="#000000"><font color="#ffffff">meant for the relaying of information about the mystic class.</font></font></span></span><span>It should also be noted that disagreeing with a point does not necessarily mean a person missed it either, as is the case here.</span></div><hr></blockquote>OK lets see...how is the term 'pwnzor' evolving? It appears to me, and alot of educated adults as a cunning attempt by a 4year old to type. That is not evolution, that is de-evolution. </div><div> </div><div>evolve: To develop gradually.</div><div>De-Evolve: To break down devoloped changes.</div><div> </div><div>Last I checked the term 'pwnzor' was not in the english language. I quite frankly fail to see how this is evolving. So again, it is not a evolutionary change to the english language.  I am sure your public education taught you otherwise.</div><div> </div><div>Now please, we are trying to have a discussion here. If you would like, I will be more than happy to walk across the digital hall and chat in your Defiler threads. But can we keep on topic?</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Kaharthemad on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><span>"Look at me, I like to keep talking about something and then tell other people to stop talking about it!  This way, I get the last word AND look all high and mighty!"</span></blockquote></div><div> </div><hr></blockquote></span></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:23 AM</span></p>

[Thatdumbg]

   I know I'm probably the pot calling the kettle black here, but can we focus on the matter at hand? Every erraneous post here only hurts the chances of someone providing the feedback that has been asked for.One of my major problems is that everything I see is from the eyes of the max-level raider, so I am positive that there are other aspects that totally go above my head. Unfortunately, most of our major posters (Bandit, Mystique, Eepop, Paisan and many others) are largely from this background as well (although I wont presume to judge that their case of tunnel vision is as bad as mine).Has anyone been in the position of seriously being underpowered in one aspect or unable to cope with a certain situation on a day to day basis, when the other priest classes can? I understand that soloing is and will always be a large concern as well.I'd personally like to see more feedback from those in the early to middle levels when it comes to balancing.<div></div>

[Purcupile]

<div><hr></div><div>Sokolov wrote:<span><div>"The inability to recognize that language evolves is problematic for you, it appears.  Your preferred method of communication is not necessarily the most efficient or relevant."</div><div> </div><div>"Radical_Edward accurately expressed a sentiment by using the term "pwnzor," a sentiment that is not readily expressed with such succinctness in common verbage.�  In fact, would it not be more accurate to say that a person who cannot (or will not) use a certain language subset to be handicapped in comparison to one who has the ability to use both?"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000"><MESSAGE EDITED.  Paragraph deleted due to it being blatantly stupid></font></div><div>"It should also be noted that disagreeing with a point does not necessarily mean a person missed it either, as is the case here."</div><div><hr></div><div>Sokolov</div><div>I am a 61 year old playing this game.  I read these forums and occasionaly offer some input.  In regards to your statement above I must take exception...the problem is not that language evolves.  A problem occurs when someone thinks that it has evolved to the point where everyone understands the comments when stated in the evolved lingo (an old fashioned word that everyone understands).  THE PREFERRED METHOD OF COMMUNICATION <u>is</u> <u>not</u> a method at all...it is a "style" that is understood by everyone who may either hear it or read it.  "Style" is by definition something both you and Radical Edward as well as others of your ilk definitely have...however, your boorish, faddish, demeaning and rude comments do not reflect a style which is indicative of an educated person.  I have found, over-the-years, that those who cannot communicate in an intelligent, polite and educated manner fail at their efforts to be either understood or heard,  that their comments are dismissed off-hand, and that the reader or listener of their babbling rejects the speaker's efforts as moronic and by extension the wag an imbecile.</div><div> </div><div>I do not have any idea of the thought (if indeed it was one) that Radical Edward had when he wrote "pwnzor" and the fact that you seem to take great delight by indicating that he was accurate in that expression and that I because I cannot and will not stoop to the level of cretins makes me handicapped.  Sir,  there is nothing further from the truth.  Granted, I may be physically slowed by my age, however my mind is not.  You are correct when you say I have a handicap (not one of an unfavorable condition, but rather one of superiority) and I use it to my advantage whenever I confront counterfeit intelligence such as yours.</div><div> </div><div>Finally, you may rest assured that my disagreement with your point, cannot be construed in any way, to mean that it was missed.</div><div> </div><div>Purcupile, 65 MYSTIC, Kithicor Server</div><div> </div><div> </div></span></div>

[Fennir]

this discussion is brokeback<div></div>

[Banditman]

There is no discussion at the present, I'm still just collecting feedback from Mystics regarding their perceived balance issues and occasionally guiding them into more accurate and viable paths to the improvement of the class.Right now we've got a few issues and some preliminary thought as to what might fix them.  Hopefully once we have the complete list, or by Wednesday, we'll compile and begin the real discussion on what needs to be done to correct the issues.<div></div>

[thedu]

Could everyone please stop feeding the trolls - it's pointless and they get fat.  Let's get back to the original topic.<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

   Here is one I'd like to see...If you are only going to have my spell upgrade 2 or 3 percent from master to master, then can we see a reduced power cost?Example:Dreadful Lethargy- 24% encounter slow, 169 powerLethargy- 26% encounter slow, 214 power<div></div>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:There is no discussion at the present, I'm still just collecting feedback from Mystics regarding their perceived balance issues and occasionally guiding them into more accurate and viable paths to the improvement of the class.<hr></blockquote>wasnt talking about your discussion bro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Kaharthemad]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:Could everyone please stop feeding the trolls - it's pointless and they get fat.  Let's get back to the original topic.<div></div><hr></blockquote>We are feeding them in hopes the Cholesteral will reach a point where it blocks off arteries and they die.

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaharthemad wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>rofl . pwnzor.<hr></blockquote>well  there goes any credibility this mental midget had with me. Anyone that uses dude speak like that in my opinion has the IQ of a crushed avocado.<hr></blockquote><p>zor, sauce, tizzle? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>just so you know, im rolling a mystic because they're more uba than defiler. Bolster = insane <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div><p>Funny how I mention that and lo and behold the tip of the spear himself shows up.</p><p>You've got no credibility here Ixnay.  You brought rhetoric and no facts.</p><p>Until you prove, with facts and data, how "equal" Mystics are, you've got no legs to stand on. </p><p>The fact that the Defiler community would intrude here upon discussions shows just how much class they really have.</p><p>Yea, we may threaten your position in the MT group because we're tired of being second fiddle.  Get over it.  Balance is coming, you're looking at the start.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Bandit.. Please do not assume that because of one or two posters from the "Defiler Community" that the class as a whole has no class =P</p><p>With reguards to balance.. I agree there are some things that are definatley out of whack.. but we all have our strengths and weaknesses..</p><p>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations. - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid. - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal - Single target "Cure all" spell. - More actual HP Heal spells (if you include your pet)</p><p>Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless. - Less single target slows - No Cannibalize ability - Low relative DPS.</p><p>Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not.. - More Single target Debuffs. - Cannibalize ability - Stun cure (when it works) - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows. - More Wards (if you include our pet)</p><p>Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it. - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group - No avoidance buffs. - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)</p><p>In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.</p><p>As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.</p><p>Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..</p><p>Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..</p><p>And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.</p>

[Broomhilda]

<div></div><p>What he said ^^^.    I am in total agreement Duntzz's post, well said.  I will state for the record however, NOT all Defilers demanded the Bolster nerf (as someone in this thread stated we did) and NOT all Defilers boasted and bragged and talked major [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about how superior we were to Mystics except TWO, Radical Edward and another who doesnt post as much on the defiler forums (thankfully).  I have bumped heads with these two Defilers FOR MONTHS refuting their total garbage, knowing that one day thier rhetoric would be used against us as a backup to a nerf or a reason to deny our class further benefits.  I was harrassed and harranged by one of them for MONTHS as a result of this as well.  So yes I know the pain and know that these two have done tremendous damage to Defiler credibility, but I will state again, THESE WERE ONLY TWO, not the "Defiler Community".  </p><p>::Takes deep breath::  OK, goodbye for good and I wont be back unless to contribute something positive OR Refute misinformation about my class.  I have no issue with Mystics and I was truly was happy for you guys when Bolster was announced.</p><p>Peace out.  Broom</p>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>Bandit.. Please do not assume that because of one or two posters from the "Defiler Community" that the class as a whole has no class =P</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I really try not to, but it is very difficult when faced with Captain Rhetoric and his cronies.  Sorry.  It's not a view I hold of Defilers in game, I swear.</font></p><p>With reguards to balance.. I agree there are some things that are definatley out of whack.. but we all have our strengths and weaknesses..</p><p>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'll try to keep this brief, but let me assure you that AE Slows are NOT anywhere NEAR as effective as our Haze line.  The main strength of the Haze line is that it debuffs not only speed, but skill as well.  The AE versions do not debuff skill, only speed.  Further, and I hope Defilers understand this, Slows only affect the auto attack swing speed of a mob.  It doesn't affect the cast or recast times of CA's / Spells.  In general, a 25% Slow with no skill debuff only drops the overall DPS of a mob by about 8%.</font></p><p> - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Leave off "spells like" and you'll have a winner.  Torpor is the only additional cross raid cast we can make insofar as healing goes.  Avatar, Foretelling and all the rest of our buffs and spells are NOT cross raid castable.</font></p><p> - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Bzzt.  Sorry, we have some nice parting gifts for you.  The total overheal protection is like 250 HP at the most.  So, if we heal a tank who is 500 HP down with a 1400 HP heal we still burn 650 HP for nothing.  Further, the overheal protection doesn't stack.  So, once you have that boost in place, subsequent spells will overheal.  Finally, EVERYONE gets to use this once we put it in place.  Once that little boost is there, everyone can use it.</font></p><p> - Single target "Cure all" spell.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">It's a wonderful spell for use on the MT.  Unfortunately, if we aren't in the MT group, we don't know when to cast it since we cannot see the effect icons on him.</font></p><p> - More actual HP Heal spells (if you include your pet)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'd love to include our pet, but in order to do so, you need to include your Spiritual Circle spell.  Wards and heals are the same thing for balance purposes, as was discussed in another thread.  Further, our pet, like Spiritual Circle, has some rather strict range limits which are even smaller than Spiritual Circle's.</font></p><p>Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So, basically, in nearly every endgame raiding situation.  Gotcha.</font></p><p> - Less single target slows</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We have enough, we don't need any more.</font></p><p> - No Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Of our own.  We can still use a Manastone but that's not exactly the same.</font></p><p> - Low relative DPS.</p><p>Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..</p><p><font color="#ff0000">A clear advantage in any endgame situation.</font></p><p> - More Single target Debuffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Good.  That's how it should be.</font></p><p> - Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We're a little jealous, since it really seems Canabalize should be a Shaman ability, not an ability specific to one sub-class.  We'll probably get over it.</font></p><p> - Stun cure (when it works)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I would bug the snot out of a Dev until it did work properly.</font></p><p> - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'm not sure this is a good thing or a bad thing.  Probably neither, it's just the way Defilers work.</font></p><p> - More Wards (if you include our pet)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">*shrug*</font></p><p>Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Welcome to life outside the MT group</font></p><p> - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Doesn't matter.  The mob had bloody well better be at the Slow cap anyway.  I'm not sure I'd call the Tendrils line your biggest debuff when you're sitting on something like the Abhorence line. </font></p><p> - No avoidance buffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">All we have is the Avatar line, which adds less than 1% avoidance in the post LU13 world - and only to one player in our group.</font></p><p> - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">You aren't missing much.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I think you need to realize that you don't NEED to cast all your spells.  You're probably wasting power unless you are doing it for secondary effects.  The Slow and DPS debuff caps are incredibly easy to reach with both a Mystic and Defiler in the raid.</font></p><p>As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.</p><p>Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..</p><p>Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..</p><p>And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.</p><font color="#ff0000">We try really hard to ignore unpleasant elements in any community, including our own.  Sometimes they get the best of us.</font><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'll try to keep this brief, but let me assure you that AE Slows are NOT anywhere NEAR as effective as our Haze line.  The main strength of the Haze line is that it debuffs not only speed, but skill as well.  The AE versions do not debuff skill, only speed.  Further, and I hope Defilers understand this, Slows only affect the auto attack swing speed of a mob.  It doesn't affect the cast or recast times of CA's / Spells.  In general, a 25% Slow with no skill debuff only drops the overall DPS of a mob by about 8%.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">I realize that Slow's are not as near as effective as a skill debuff, but when you're fighting the trash mobs.. yes.. it definately helps cut down on the healing requirements (PPTR anyone?). So I still think that this is a Pro for Mystics, and I really don't think that any Mystic would give this ability up. =D</font></p><p> - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Leave off "spells like" and you'll have a winner.  Torpor is the only additional cross raid cast we can make insofar as healing goes.  Avatar, Foretelling and all the rest of our buffs and spells are NOT cross raid castable.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">OK.. even without the "spells like" it is still one more thing that you can do cross raid that we cannot. I'd love to have an "Extra" ward that I could throw on the MT when I'm not in their group.</font></p><p> - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Bzzt.  Sorry, we have some nice parting gifts for you.  The total overheal protection is like 250 HP at the most.  So, if we heal a tank who is 500 HP down with a 1400 HP heal we still burn 650 HP for nothing.  Further, the overheal protection doesn't stack.  So, once you have that boost in place, subsequent spells will overheal.  Finally, EVERYONE gets to use this once we put it in place.  Once that little boost is there, everyone can use it.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#0000ff">Sorry, I misunderstood how large (small) that HP buff was, and that they did not stack.. I'll keep that info handy.. thank you for clarifying..</font></p><p>Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So, basically, in nearly every endgame raiding situation.  Gotcha.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Not necessarily.. especially if your raid is short on chanters, and you need a 2nd tank for the adds.. this will help make that 2nd tank the best they can be if they are lacking the gear of your typical MT. I would however like to see your Stat buffs ignore the cap.. this would solve a lot of the issues Mystics are currently having between our buffs and yours..</font></p><p> - Less single target slows</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We have enough, we don't need any more.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Sorry, I should have stated Debuffs, not slows.. we can all slow to the cap quite easily.</font></p><p> - No Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Of our own.  We can still use a Manastone but that's not exactly the same.</font></p><p> - Low relative DPS.</p><p>Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..</p><p><font color="#ff0000">A clear advantage in any endgame situation.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Again, see the info above.. if you're MT is not near the cap.. (and not every raid MT is near the cap, as we can't all get the gear) I would take the HP / Power / AGI over just straight HP / Power (and a lot less power at that)</font></p><p> - More Single target Debuffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Good.  That's how it should be.</font></p><p> - Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We're a little jealous, since it really seems Canabalize should be a Shaman ability, not an ability specific to one sub-class.  We'll probably get over it.</font></p><p> - Stun cure (when it works)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I would bug the snot out of a Dev until it did work properly.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">The "Devs" have already stated that this spell is working as intended.. we can only cure stuns etc that are cureable by a regular single target cure.. the only difference is we can cast this while stunned/stifled/mezzed/fear'd etc... there are a ton of these effects, usually epic encounters, that this does absolutely jack for, because the Dev's have decided to make that stun un-cureable and that's when we need it the most.. Sanctuary on the other hand will prevent these stuns from happening in most situations. we are still working on this one =D</font></p><p> - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'm not sure this is a good thing or a bad thing.  Probably neither, it's just the way Defilers work.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#0000ff">They're not great (the wards anyhow) but they help on the really long fights as they are extremely power efficient, and tend to fire off enough to warrant the casting time.</font></p><p> - More Wards (if you include our pet)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">*shrug*</font></p><p>Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Welcome to life outside the MT group</font></p><p> - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Doesn't matter.  The mob had bloody well better be at the Slow cap anyway.  I'm not sure I'd call the Tendrils line your biggest debuff when you're sitting on something like the Abhorence line. </font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Abhorrence line is nice.. Master is 32% to all stats.. Tendrils thought IS our largest Slow / DPS reducer, and is a buff that goes on the MT which procs when they are hit.. I believe the master is ~25% slow / ~30% DPS reduction, and it procs like crazy. (numbers may be slightly off, as I'm not looking at the actual spell) This is only useable when in the MT group, and costs us no power.</font></p><p> - No avoidance buffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">All we have is the Avatar line, which adds less than 1% avoidance in the post LU13 world - and only to one player in our group.</font></p><p> - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">You aren't missing much.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I think you need to realize that you don't NEED to cast all your spells.  You're probably wasting power unless you are doing it for secondary effects.  The Slow and DPS debuff caps are incredibly easy to reach with both a Mystic and Defiler in the raid.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Every single Hostile spell we have has some sort of Debuff attached to it. I don't cast these for the damage, but to either slow down the mob, or increase damage of my raids DPS classes.. on a single target mob it makes a HUGE difference in how well the fight goes..</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Fuluginous - DoT + %DPS reductionBane Line - Proc WardAphotic - AE DoT + Nox resist Debuff (for your fellow warlocks / assassins / necros)Imprecation - DD + Nox Resist DebuffPutrify - DoT + Wiz Debuff</font></p><p>As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.</p><p>Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..</p><p>Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..</p><p>And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.</p><font color="#ff0000">We try really hard to ignore unpleasant elements in any community, including our own.  Sometimes they get the best of us.</font><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote>

[Banditman]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>Mystics Pros: - Increase Stats.. very beneficial when your tank is not near the stat cap to get him closer, and you increase avoidance.. - AE Slows and Debuffs.. these are extremely usefull in a lot of situations.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'll try to keep this brief, but let me assure you that AE Slows are NOT anywhere NEAR as effective as our Haze line.  The main strength of the Haze line is that it debuffs not only speed, but skill as well.  The AE versions do not debuff skill, only speed.  Further, and I hope Defilers understand this, Slows only affect the auto attack swing speed of a mob.  It doesn't affect the cast or recast times of CA's / Spells.  In general, a 25% Slow with no skill debuff only drops the overall DPS of a mob by about 8%.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">I realize that Slow's are not as near as effective as a skill debuff, but when you're fighting the trash mobs.. yes.. it definately helps cut down on the healing requirements (PPTR anyone?). So I still think that this is a Pro for Mystics, and I really don't think that any Mystic would give this ability up. =D</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">I think it depends on what we got for giving it up.  I'd gladly give it up for something like a casting skill debuff instead.</font></p><p> - Can Cast spells like Torpor cross raid.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Leave off "spells like" and you'll have a winner.  Torpor is the only additional cross raid cast we can make insofar as healing goes.  Avatar, Foretelling and all the rest of our buffs and spells are NOT cross raid castable.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">OK.. even without the "spells like" it is still one more thing that you can do cross raid that we cannot. I'd love to have an "Extra" ward that I could throw on the MT when I'm not in their group.</font></p><p> - Can "Over heal" a tank.. never have a wasted heal</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Bzzt.  Sorry, we have some nice parting gifts for you.  The total overheal protection is like 250 HP at the most.  So, if we heal a tank who is 500 HP down with a 1400 HP heal we still burn 650 HP for nothing.  Further, the overheal protection doesn't stack.  So, once you have that boost in place, subsequent spells will overheal.  Finally, EVERYONE gets to use this once we put it in place.  Once that little boost is there, everyone can use it.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#0000ff">Sorry, I misunderstood how large (small) that HP buff was, and that they did not stack.. I'll keep that info handy.. thank you for clarifying..</font></p><p>Mystic Cons: - Increase Stats.. When your MT is at the stat cap, the buff is fairly useless.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So, basically, in nearly every endgame raiding situation.  Gotcha.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Not necessarily.. especially if your raid is short on chanters, and you need a 2nd tank for the adds.. this will help make that 2nd tank the best they can be if they are lacking the gear of your typical MT. I would however like to see your Stat buffs ignore the cap.. this would solve a lot of the issues Mystics are currently having between our buffs and yours..</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><font color="#ff0000">I dont think aspiring to be around the second best tanks in the game is something many Mystics care to ponder.  I understand what you are saying . . . but it still means relegating Mystics to a secondary role as opposed to allowing them to compete for a primary role if they so desire.</font></font></p><p> - Less single target slows</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We have enough, we don't need any more.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Sorry, I should have stated Debuffs, not slows.. we can all slow to the cap quite easily.</font></p><font color="#ff0000">I think we call debuff, at least DPS wise, to the cap alone.  Just our Soul line plus Umbral Trap (which Defilers share) can take a mob right to the cap on DPS debuffs.  But if we are talking about stat debuffs, well, I still say that's as it should be.  I don't think Mystics should debuff as well as Defilers.</font><p> - No Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Of our own.  We can still use a Manastone but that's not exactly the same.</font></p><p> - Low relative DPS.</p><p>Defiler Pros: - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..</p><p><font color="#ff0000">A clear advantage in any endgame situation.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Again, see the info above.. if you're MT is not near the cap.. (and not every raid MT is near the cap, as we can't all get the gear) I would take the HP / Power / AGI over just straight HP / Power (and a lot less power at that)</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Which is why I fail to understand the reluctance or lack of foresight on the part of the Devs with regards to allowing buffs to raise the stat cap.  It would completely eliminate many of the buffing arguements in the endgame without impacting anything else.  Stats at cap?  No problem, Mystic buffs raise the cap and take full effect.  Not at the cap?  No problem, Mystic buffs will get you closer.</font></p><p> - More Single target Debuffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Good.  That's how it should be.</font></p><p> - Cannibalize ability</p><p><font color="#ff0000">We're a little jealous, since it really seems Canabalize should be a Shaman ability, not an ability specific to one sub-class.  We'll probably get over it.</font></p><p> - Stun cure (when it works)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I would bug the snot out of a Dev until it did work properly.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">The "Devs" have already stated that this spell is working as intended.. we can only cure stuns etc that are cureable by a regular single target cure.. the only difference is we can cast this while stunned/stifled/mezzed/fear'd etc... there are a ton of these effects, usually epic encounters, that this does absolutely jack for, because the Dev's have decided to make that stun un-cureable and that's when we need it the most.. Sanctuary on the other hand will prevent these stuns from happening in most situations. we are still working on this one =D</font></p><p></p><p> - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I'm not sure this is a good thing or a bad thing.  Probably neither, it's just the way Defilers work.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#0000ff">They're not great (the wards anyhow) but they help on the really long fights as they are extremely power efficient, and tend to fire off enough to warrant the casting time.</font></p><p> - More Wards (if you include our pet)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">*shrug*</font></p><p>Defiler Cons: - No "Cross raid" healing utility.. 1 ward, 2 heals..that's it.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Welcome to life outside the MT group</font></p><p> - Our largest debuff / slow is useless outside of the MT group</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Doesn't matter.  The mob had bloody well better be at the Slow cap anyway.  I'm not sure I'd call the Tendrils line your biggest debuff when you're sitting on something like the Abhorence line. </font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Abhorrence line is nice.. Master is 32% to all stats.. Tendrils thought IS our largest Slow / DPS reducer, and is a buff that goes on the MT which procs when they are hit.. I believe the master is ~25% slow / ~30% DPS reduction, and it procs like crazy. (numbers may be slightly off, as I'm not looking at the actual spell) This is only useable when in the MT group, and costs us no power.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Tendrils Master 1 is -32% DPS, -24% Attack speed.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">What I was actually saying though is that Tendrils is complete overkill in a raid where a Mystic and a Defiler are both present.  If you take:  Haze + Degenerate + Soul  you are already at both the Attack Speed and DPS debuff caps.  This doesn't even account for Umbral Trap, Lethargy or Fulginous Tendril which could also be used.</font></p><p> - No avoidance buffs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">All we have is the Avatar line, which adds less than 1% avoidance in the post LU13 world - and only to one player in our group.</font></p><p> - No AE Debuffs (other than Nox)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">You aren't missing much.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>In our guild, we often put a mystic in the MT group.. why.. because our MT is not at the cap for STR / AGI / STA.. and you guys have the best buff to get him there.. when I'm not in the MT group.. I heal only when necessary, and spend my entire time debuffing.. if All I do is debuff, I'm chain casting the entire fight.. I can cycle through all my debuffs, and by the time I'm done casting I have to start the chain again.. We may have MORE debuffs, but we have to cast them all to reap the benefits or matching the slowing capability of your spells.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I think you need to realize that you don't NEED to cast all your spells.  You're probably wasting power unless you are doing it for secondary effects.  The Slow and DPS debuff caps are incredibly easy to reach with both a Mystic and Defiler in the raid.</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Every single Hostile spell we have has some sort of Debuff attached to it. I don't cast these for the damage, but to either slow down the mob, or increase damage of my raids DPS classes.. on a single target mob it makes a HUGE difference in how well the fight goes..</font></p><p><font color="#0000ff">Fuluginous - DoT + %DPS reductionBane Line - Proc WardAphotic - AE DoT + Nox resist Debuff (for your fellow warlocks / assassins / necros)Imprecation - DD + Nox Resist DebuffPutrify - DoT + Wiz Debuff</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">What I was saying is that you don't NEED to use all your Slow type spells when in a raid, because as I showed you above, a Mystic and a Defiler in the same raid don't have to work hard AT ALL to get to both caps for DPS and Attack Speed.  Everything else is just fluff. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">For instance, there is "technically" no reason for a Mystic to cast anything in our "Ancients" line on a raid with a Defiler.  It debuffs Stamina . . . and with a Defiler knocking 32% off the top, I doubt that our little spell means all that much.  However, we cast it anyway to get the Resistance debuff effects.</font></p><p>As for Defile vs Bolster. Even with the nerf to Bolster.. (which I thought was extremely harsh) it is still an amazing spell.. and for testing we put a Mystic and Defiler in the MT group.. buffed up HP.. then landed bolster, and we had our tank to almost 15kHP.. Man did that own..! Our MT Mystic will be casting this spell every time it is up.</p><p>Defile.. Very situational.. because it is a True AE spell there are very few situations where we are able to use this spell, and in the case of raids.. we will have to be in AE range of the mob for it to work as it is a radiating AE from where we stand.. not an AE to the mob we cast.. makes it only really good for soloing, and situational for grouping..</p><p>Anyhow.. I've said my bit.. Mystics are still "the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" when it comes to MT healing.. and I don't see that changing any time soon..</p><p>And please.. don't lump the couple loudmouthed Defilers in with the entire community.. they do not represent all of us... they just think they do.</p><font color="#ff0000">We try really hard to ignore unpleasant elements in any community, including our own.  Sometimes they get the best of us.</font><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Mystiq]

When trying to think about how to balance our stat buffs with the raw HP's a Defiler buffs, it becomes apparent that the easily reached stat caps are the root of the problem.Mystics are the best stat buffers in the game. Every priest buffs two stats with a group buff, and any other single target buff, to my knowledge, either buffs more of those two stats, or buffs something other than stats. Mystics have Avatar, which in addition to our str and sta set, also buffs agility. Bolster buffs all stats by a percentage, though it is a short duration buff.I know it might sound crazy, but I'd like to propose that the Mystic single target stat buffs (Avatar and Bolster) ignore the stat cap. If the values of the buffs need to be adjusted so be it. Perhaps take the stat buff off of Bolster, and make Avatar buff all stats, not just str sta agi, by a greater amount. Maybe increase Bolster's HP gain to at least 25% at master 1, though I think restoring it to what it was before the nerf would be appropriate also. Mystics deserve to feel like the best buffers, because the layout is already there, there's just a big brick wall in the way. I just want to take the unknown out of the equasion, and something along the lines of what I described might be the answer.Maybe Defiler slows and dps debuffs should work in the same way. Since they can so easily reach both caps with their own debuffs alone, to say nothing of Mystic debuffs, or Dirge slows or Brigand dps debuffs or any other class that can debuff melee skills. Perhaps Defilers should be allowed to break thru the 50% caps.We are given so much as it is, so why doesn't it feel meaningful? I think the caps have got to to, have got to change in some way. I can't see acceptable balance with it in the way.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><p>Oh.. would I ever love to be able to debuff past the 50% cap.. the problem with this is that doing so would absolutely trivialize a lot of encounters. throw 2-3 defilers in the raid, and you could perma-debuff the mob 100% merry christmas.. keep the DPS alive and kill it.. no tank required... that is the exact reason that there is a debuff cap in the game.. and I completely agree with it..</p><p>Buffs on the other hand.. Yes.. there needs to be some sort of cap or you have the problem of again trivializing encounters by buff stacking.. which is what we had prior to LU13.. you could DEF buff your tank to the point of them conning red to the raid mob, and they would barely get hit..  As for where the caps are right now? they seem to be fairly balanced with regards to the difficulty of the mobs..</p><p>What I think would be cool for you guys is make your spells % based.. Like Bolster is now.. make it a % increase to Power / HP / Avoidance.. That way it would scale with your tank.. the better the tank.. the better the buff.. because that's really what the spell is doing on an un-capped tank.. that would ignore the stat cap, and still give you the desired effect.. What that exact % should be?? that's something for the math brains over at SOE to figure out..</p>

[Mystiq]

I wouldn't mind more of our buffs being % based, but I dunno what % based spells have to do with ignoring the stat cap, unless you're just saying they should. Bolster doesn't insofar as raising health and power beyond the ~510 cap. Any priest already capped on wis, for example, when buffed with Bolster will see zero change to resists or power. Similarly if Bolster is what puts you over the cap, you'll only get the benefit of the increase up to the cap, as with any other buffs.You're right about the debuffs and trivializing content of course. I just didn't want to sound like I was asking for the world without regards to the big picture. It's so hard to gauge people's reactions to ideas around here <span>:smileysad:</span>.<div></div>

[Eileithia]

<div></div>hehe.. I think you misread (Or I mistyped).. What I was trying to say is make your Avitar spell a direct % increase to HP / Power / Avoidance.. not STA / STR / AGI.. therefore avoiding the whole cap issue :smileywink:

[Mystiq]

Oh I gotcha. Yeah think I missed that part.That's another way to do it, though I don't think stats are the enemy, and we shouldn't have to avoid them or buffing them. Equipment these days tends to be very specific on which stats they have, and it can get easy to ignore a stat or let it sink far below others with a more direct benefit. I still like the idea of being able to supplement this as opposed to conceding to the stat cap and changing the buffs altogether.                                                                                         <div></div>

[Mystiq]

In the latest Test notes:<strong>Mystic changes:</strong>- Bolster can now be cast on raid members.Several other marquee spells of other classes were changed in this way too. I should be happy yet somehow this change is as much a loss as a boon. We gain the ability to cast this spell on anyone in our raid, yet lose the equal shot this spell gave us of being in the MT group of said raid. Sometimes I wish they'd make all single targetted buffs and procs raidwide, but I know that would be rather overpowering, and would hurt some classes more than help.Sigh...<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>I know I'm a lil late into this, but this bit caught my eye...<blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>Defiler Pros:  - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..  - More Single target Debuffs.  - Cannibalize ability  - Stun cure (when it works)  - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.  - <strong>More Wards (if you include our pet)</strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think both shammy classes get the same amount of warding spells:</p><p>Mystic:ST wardGrp wardAc buff wardTorporOberonEmergency ST wardEmergency grp ward</p><p>Total: 7 warding spells</p><p>Defiler:ST wardGrp wardAC buf wardBane lineSpiritual CircleEmergency ST wardEmergency Grp ward</p><p>Total: 7 warding spells</p><p>Am I just missing a defiler spell line?</p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:56 PM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div>Just an afterthought to my last post (don't want to re-edit it because the forums are being freaky again and adding in all the stupid paragraph tags after every line -_-):</div><div> </div><div>I actually left out a mystic line that wards.. the prophetic guard line (I might possibly have the name wrong but I don't think I do): group noxious ward + resist buff; 36s duration, 1 min recast. It also regenerates the ward even though there's nothing in the description about that.</div><div> </div><div>So technically, Mystics have one up on the defilers for wards unless as I just posted, I missed a defiler line in which case they're back to being exactly equal.</div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div>I know I'm a lil late into this, but this bit caught my eye...<blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>Defiler Pros:  - Buff Raw HP / Power. Stat cap or not..  - More Single target Debuffs.  - Cannibalize ability  - Stun cure (when it works)  - More "Reactive abilities" like proc wards, and proc slows.  - <strong>More Wards (if you include our pet)</strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think both shammy classes get the same amount of warding spells:</p><p>Mystic:ST wardGrp wardAc buff wardTorporOberonEmergency ST wardEmergency grp ward</p><p>Total: 7 warding spells</p><p>Defiler:ST wardGrp wardAC buf wardBane lineSpiritual CircleEmergency ST wardEmergency Grp ward</p><p>Total: 7 warding spells</p><p>Am I just missing a defiler spell line?</p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:56 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I don't believe Torpor has any Ward component.  The Buff Ward for Mystics is physical damage as opposed to the Defiler version which is magical (I contend that the physical version is more useful).  Spiritual Circle owns tho (Mystic version ticks heals instead of a ward, from what I understand).  So I think that Defilers ward more, but Mystics heal more.  Others can help correct or append to this.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:44 PM</span></p>

[paisan]

<div>Torpor is primarily a ward... a regen ward and HOT.</div>

[icetower]

<div></div><div>The situation thus far.</div><div> </div><div>Mystic vs Defiler in raids: Mystic comprehensively out of the MT group, Mystics have more secondary buffing advantage, Defilers have situational dps advantage.</div><div> </div><div>Mystic vs Defiler in groups: Mystics now competitive with Defilers in main function if you include Bolster, except now Defilers own us in added dps , even competing with top tier dps classes in some situations.</div><div> </div><div>Mystic vs Defiler solo: +65 and its all over. 9 ticks of 100-1000 damage on each mob in range is so rediculously superior to anything we can dish out, that its not even worth debating.</div><div> </div><div>If the devs aren't going to fix Mystics stat buffs, then the alternative as I see it would be to change one of our redundant debuffs *cough* eidolon *cough* to a single target dps spell along the lines of defile.</div><div> </div><div>Frankly I don't really care which area is chosen to be fixed, but something needs to be done to bring Mystics up to par with Defilers.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:28 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by icetower on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:29 PM</span></p>

[Mystiq]

A good comparison by Dragonrealms. What it shows pretty clearly is that the difference is relatively slight between how many wards Mystics and Defilers have, and the differences have a very small bearing on any real balance issues.Torpor does indeed have a small regenerating ward component to it, and I dare say I have no clue why so many Defilers love pointing out how useful Torpor is if all they thought it was is a weak hp regen.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Well, I have never really said much about Torpor.  In any case, I thought it was similiar to the Back Into the Fray line Druids have. I also did not think it was a weak regen - I didn't say that at all so I don't know where you got the idea from (but maybe you were talking about other Defilers, evidence of which I don't recall).<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 PM</span></p>

[Ishnar]

<div></div><p>Hrm, I'm glad I came over here.  I'm learning a lot about Mystics where before I was just assuming they were straight even with us.  I'm probably going to ask a few stupid questions here, but the guides are down so I can't just look there and answer them for myself as I normally would.</p><p>Sta buff - So I take it that this is only weaker than the Defiler HP buff in a high end raid situation. In groups and low end raids everything is fine?</p><p>DPS disadvantage.  My understanding was that Mystics were sorta like bards, they make everyone else look good.  So even though we might parse higher DPS, in a group our contributions even out, it is solo where the DPS diffrential becomes painful?</p><p>I've grouped with mystics a few times and my general impression is they rock.  It seemed that the main difference between defilers and mystics was simply whether the player would rather hurt mobs directly or indicetly by buffing groupmates.</p><p>Bolster - Even though I normally stick to the defiler forums I had heard that Bolster had been overcorrected, even if it seemed drowned out beneath the chorus of "they fixed defile".  Actually, there was considerable complaining about defiler being DPS.  It seem a lot of defilers would rather debuff than dot.</p><p> </p>

[Mystiq]

<div><span>Hiya Ishnar, thanks for stopping by, learning is fun <span>:smileyhappy:</span>.<blockquote><hr>Ishnar wrote:<div></div><p>Hrm, I'm glad I came over here.  I'm learning a lot about Mystics where before I was just assuming they were straight even with us.  I'm probably going to ask a few stupid questions here, but the guides are down so I can't just look there and answer them for myself as I normally would.</p><p>Sta buff - So I take it that this is only weaker than the Defiler HP buff in a high end raid situation. In groups and low end raids everything is fine?</p><p><font color="#9966ff">It really depends for normal situations. I wish I had an answer for this, but I really couldn't say for sure. If I had to assume, I'd say the hp a Mystic and Defiler can buff is about the same on a target that isn't at or close to the sta cap.</font></p><p>DPS disadvantage.  My understanding was that Mystics were sorta like bards, they make everyone else look good.  So even though we might parse higher DPS, in a group our contributions even out, it is solo where the DPS diffrential becomes painful?</p><p><font color="#9966ff">It is true, Mystics are terrible at putting out damage. But it is also my understanding that Defilers are no paragons of DPS either, tho on average probably higher than us. It's not something I personally am concerned with. I don't like soloing, and didn't pick Mystic to solo, though in November of '04 nobody really knew where any of the priests stood on soloing <span>:smileywink:</span>. I know that some Mystics do solo, or prefer to, but I honestly don't have the patience for it, nor would I consider the difference in our dps to be a major balance issue.</font></p><p>I've grouped with mystics a few times and my general impression is they rock.  It seemed that the main difference between defilers and mystics was simply whether the player would rather hurt mobs directly or indicetly by buffing groupmates.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">Shamans rock in general, just in different ways. The problem exists due to the difference between Mystics and Defilers being slight in some areas, and large in other very specific areas that affect high end gameplay. I have no doubt that all shaman debuffs have a great impact on fights, but why are most of them so alike between the two classes?  I understand Mystics get two AE debuffs that Defilers do not get, but Defilers get more single target debuffs, including one that combines DPS and attack speed debuffing in one spell, where ours are almost identical just seperate. As for the preference of buffing versus debuffing, one really cannot choose between Mystic and Defiler very easily based on those assumptions, and I think that needs to be changed. I want to be as distinct from a Defiler as a Dirge is from a Troubador.</font></p><p>Bolster - Even though I normally stick to the defiler forums I had heard that Bolster had been overcorrected, even if it seemed drowned out beneath the chorus of "they fixed defile".  Actually, there was considerable complaining about defiler being DPS.  It seem a lot of defilers would rather debuff than dot.</p><p><font color="#9966ff">I can understand the preference for debuffing. Even though I play the supposed "defensive" shaman, I enjoy debuffing a lot, certainly more than using my two incredibly weak dots. Defile in its fixed form sounds like a very decent dot on the other hand, but again I understand why some Defilers might be disappointed with it, both because they are not a dps class, and because of Bolster's apparent "uberness". I'm sure I've said enough already about Bolster, so suffice it to say it's not as uber as most think, it isn't the "bandaid" fix Mystics have been looking for with respect to balance, and after it is made to be cast raidwide, will no longer give Mystics a chance to be included in the MT group over a Defiler. I don't even care if I personally am ever in the MT group, it's a matter of principle at this point.</font></p><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Banditman]

I think the change to Bolster allowing it to be cast raid wide is really a sign of just how unimportant the spell is now.4 Mystics on a raid could basically chain-Bolster a MT for 144 seconds . . . almost 2 and a half minutes.  This is saying that it's "ok" for a MT to be at Bolstered levels for an entire fight.I just don't understand, I swear I don't.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div>It also says to me the devs don't WANT mystics in the MT grp ever.  Now the only (and very situational) reason there was left for any decent raid force to put us there is gone.

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:I think the change to Bolster allowing it to be cast raid wide is really a sign of just how unimportant the spell is now.4 Mystics on a raid could basically chain-Bolster a MT for 144 seconds . . . almost 2 and a half minutes.  This is saying that it's "ok" for a MT to be at Bolstered levels for an entire fight.I just don't understand, I swear I don't.<hr></blockquote>I am not sure if there is anything to get.  From what I understand, ALL the level 65 spells have been changed to be castable raid-wide (if it is targetable).</span><span class="postbody">Dirge changes:- Oration of Sacrifice can now be cast on raid members.Illusionist changes:- Prismatic Havoc can now be cast on raid members.Mystic changes:- Bolster can now be cast on raid members.Paladin changes:- Demonstration of Faith can now be cast on raid members.Shadowknight changes:- Infernal Blessing can now be cast on raid members.Templar changes:- Reverence can now be cast on raid members.Troubador changes:- Jester's Cap can now be cast on raid members.Warden changes:- Tranquility can now be cast on raid members.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:14 PM</span></p>

[Eepop]

Wish these would get looked into. <div></div>

[Terq]

<DIV>Only thing left on this list is the Sta/Stat cap issue.  There are other threads for that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let the sleeping threads lie.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>