Is there a Guardian/Mystic problem?

[Purcupile]

<div>Last night I was in a group where the MT 59 Guardian and a 59 Ranger were fussing at each other about the tank not holding aggro.  As I understand it the Guardians have a spell "Hold The Line" that does not work properly if the Mystic has any wards up.  The way it was explained to me, while killing clops (so I may not have understood it clearly) ...that Guardians Hold The line spell keeps aggro from the mob focused on the Guard unless the Mystic (I understand this only happens to Mystics, but could also apply to Defliers) ...the Mystic has wards up that prevent the hits getting through to the Guardian, thus he losses aggro.</div><div> </div><div>I don't think I explained this very clearly, but my question is what is a good approach to take when grouped with a Guardian to circumvent this situation.  Does this apply to Berserkers too?  I have always preferred these 2 classes for my MT.</div><div> </div><div>Purcupile</div>

[trin ka]

<div></div>I have been grouping with our guardian for about 6 months...I Preward 99.9%..group ward..then single ward...or vice versa...he never has problems holding aggro unless his adept 3 taunts get resisted.Not sure on hold the line,,I can ask him tonight on how it works.Same thing with our zerkers...I preward 99.9%. It all depends on the tank though...if they are a harclave hero..maybe they dont know how many taunts their guardian actually has. If I do end up getting aggro I just make sure I am standing on my tanks heels so im in the range of his/her taunts. I'm sure the prewarding opinions vary...depending on mob/sit....but thats how I do it and havent had an issue.

[Banditman]

<div></div>I believe there is some misinformation circulating with regards to this.Guardian forums may be a better place to look.  I think that it may once have been true, but I do not believe it to be currently accurate information.As to how Hold the Line (and it's upgrades) work, it's basically a short term buff that creates locked encounter aggro when the Guardian is hit.  The Guardian is heavily snared while running this buff, but he is able to generate huge amounts of aggro with it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:01 PM</span></p>

[Terq]

<div>I know that a while back (read: up to a year ago), wards would prevent berserkers from taking damage/going berserk.  This was back when wards were unmitigated.  I assume that this would have worked the same way with Guards, and might have prevented the HTL proc at that point. </div><div> </div><div>I am pretty sure that with the mitigation changes of LU13, that this is no longer a problem.  I haven't heard of this anywhere else.  I have healed my fair share of Guardians, and they didn't seem to ahve this problem.  I really don't think that it is a ward problem.</div><div> </div><div>Did you know either of these guys, or was this a pickup group?  Did the Guard upgrade his taunts?  Was the ranger firing off all off all of his damage spells at once?  Any decent DPS player has the ability to pull agro off even the best tanks.  However, the decent DPS players have learned to pace it, so that this doesn't happen.  Most players have figured this out by the time that they are in their 50s, but there are always a few 3-sigma guys on the low end of the curve. </div>

[Banditman]

I did hear about it very early on in the LU13 process, but I never, ever saw any solid proof of it.It would certainly be easy enough to test if necessary.  I have a L41 Guardian who could sit there with HTL running and let someone Ward me.HTL would still proc tho.  I'm pretty bloody sure.<div></div>

[Banditman]

I logged my Guard last night, and this would take about 5 minutes to test.  When you are running one of the HTL series of spells, whenever it procs, you get the graphic on the mob for a taunt.So, if Wards do indeed block the proc, I would simply need to stand there with a Ward up for about 30 seconds while a couple mobs beat on me.  If the mobs get the taunt graphic with me doing nothing, HTL works with Wards.  If not, time to start a crusade.I tried to look up Purc to get him to Ward me but he was AFK.Soon as I can get someone to Ward me I'll let ya know.<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

I believe the word "damaged" that is used in the spell description is what is causing this debate. I fully expect that in its use in that spell, "damaged" is synonymous to "target of a successful attack". IMO people are just reading too much into things. I don't have a tank with that type of spell online atm or i'd check it myself; but I can't seem to find any other spell that uses the words "successful attack" instead of "damaged" when it is talking about a mob hitting a player.<div></div>

[Banditman]

Yea, I really just want to put this to bed.  I believe Wards have no effect on this, but I want to be able to show it without any doubt to be true.As soon as I can dig up someone to Ward my Guard, I'll have this knocked out.  I don't always see the taunts when I am the one Warding, so I want to be SURE.<div></div>

[Purcupile]

<div></div><p>Bandit</p><p>Do you want to set up a time when we can both be on and test this?</p><p> </p><p>Purcupile</p>

[Banditman]

As long as I'm not raiding, I'm available.I'll be on either Sudedor or Zealchu tonite, depending on the needs of the guild and our target(s).Tomorrow and Sunday I'll probably bounce around from Sudedow to Sudedoj a bit depending on what kind of groups I can dig up.But seriously, if I'm on and not raiding, I'm available.  Like I said, this will take exactly 5 minutes to check out.  Just run into Feerott, aggro the nearest green mob and put a Ward up.  If the mob gets the taunt animation while hitting me, Wards don't prevent HTL.It was clear as day when I was unWarded.<div></div>

[Geilt]

Banditman, I mshgd you about this issue. I tested it myself with 60 guard 60 mystic, and I see the graphical animation for taunt go off while warded with HTL, however, i dont get any taunt message. I was told by a fellow guildie that the taunt message should go off when HTL procs. The text on Hold the line reads that when the guardian is hit, it has 50 % chance to proc a taunt on that mob, however if wards are being seen as non-hits, then it may be a problem. OR it could be that the animation runs with HTL onm but the effect doesnt work? Ive stopped warding in general on raids, and have found our tank holding massively more aggro (when im th eonly mystic in raid) than when I use wards. Too bad our healing efficiency is suck compared to wards. Ive kept em as a last resort lately until this is comfirmed.<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

   Geilt, what was the difference in your test when a ward wasn't up? did they in fact still get a taunt message?Guess I'll talk to one of my guardians.I will say this, if it does work like this, its probably not intentional and should be /bugged.<div></div>

[Banditman]

<div></div><p>No, there is no taunt message from HTL regardless of whether you are Warded or not.</p><p>When I actually CAST a taunt, yes, I get a narrative message telling me that I taunted the mob.</p><p>There is no difference either logged or visible when HTL procs with or without Wards.  If someone has visible or logged proof that suggests differently I'd love to see it.</p><p>Certainly, it would be a LOT easier if all taunts logged properly, but that's not the case.  Even so, the question here was HTL and Wards.  I can find no difference between the logs or the visible effect.</p><p>We can do one final test that should settle it.</p><p>Turn off HTL.  Pre-Ward and pull with a taunt.  Keep the Ward up at all times, but do not taunt any further.  Note how long it takes for aggro to bounce to the Mystic.</p><p>Turn on HTL.  Pre-Ward and pull with a taunt.  Keep the Ward up at all times, but do not taunt any further.  Note how long it takes for aggro to bounce to the Mystic.</p><p>In theory, it should take significantly longer with HTL engaged.</p><p> </p>

[Thatdumbg]

Using a lower level ward and proxy pulling with HTL up might work as well. Dunno how low wards go nowadays.<div></div>

[Finora]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well, I know that berserk currently fires with a ward up. (my MT is almost always my husband, a lvl 60 berserker). I see the berserk icon pop up lots while I've got wards on him. Wards are most certainly not an issue with a berserker maintank.</p><p>As for the guardian on working differently,  their spell descriptions seem to indicate that they need to be hit for that particular thing to fire. I thought that the hold the line set was 'until canceled' but I could definately be confused since I don't have a guardian. If our wards do actually block it from firing (which in a perfect world they would not) a simple solution in normal groups would be to let them take a couple of hits, then ward or let the ward drop for a couple of hits before rewarding.</p><p>When I have been healer for a guardian though, he's not had agro issues even with wizard/warlocks in the group.</p><p>Maybe the ranger was being a goob like someone said earlier and firing off everything he had including his agro shot. /shrug</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:57 AM</span></p>

[Domiuk]

<div>Guardian looking in to this.</div><div> </div><div>Have to say it seems to me to be a problem.</div><div> </div><div>First thing you wont even notice this in a group that is not aoe heavy in general, Guardians have decent single target taunts</div><div>and losing agro on the main mob targetted shouldn't be that common.</div><div> </div><div>With my usual MT group including templar and Dirge , no wards and an agro reducer I can expect to lock a multi mob encounter on me</div><div>up until our warlock really over nukes. (I would have our Hold the line ago stance on)</div><div> </div><div>Pop a mystic in there warding and it seems im losing agro much more frequently on the non targetted mobs in the encounter.</div><div> </div><div>this is to the point where I do not want the mystic warding : ( </div><div> </div><div>Or we go for Paladin MT as his agro management works differantly.</div><div> </div><div>On the guardian boards it seems a clear consensus that this is a big problem.</div>

[Banditman]

But you have no proof.You "feel" different is not documented, reproduceable proof.  It will take solid evidence to get this looked at and fixed.I am confident that I have the correct "connection" to get this looked at *IF* someone can demonstrate a reproduceable problem with it.I've done everything except the test I outlined in my last post.  If I can find Purc (or another L40+ Mystic on Kithicor / Neriak) tonite, I'll ask him to help with that one last test.I'm having a very difficult time getting anyone to come up with any evidence whatsoever to prove this point, and every test I've done so far indicates that there is no problem.<div></div>

[Geilt]

It could just be, since Wards are 100 % effective, and have the possibility of beng taken from max ward to 0 ward in one hit, taht it causes alot more aggro than a reactive or regen that is spaced out over time. This could be the cause of the significant aggro loss? Also, if the ward wards for 1300 dmg, and your getting hit by alot of mobs that do 50 dmg, then they are hitting your ward alot more often than 8 triggers of 300 - 500 heal. This could be a factor? Also, arent wards the first line of dmg a mob goes through?<div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div>Bandit I have Ulf on beta man, just send a tell to ulfgar either on antonia or beta if you can't find someone to test it with. I'll be in and out of both this week.EDIT: Bah forgot its Ulfgarxx on beta.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:10 PM</span></p>

[Banditman]

I don't have my Guard on beta, I never expected to need him there.  Just Conjuror and Mystic.  I can delete something and beta buff one tho.<div></div>

[Domiuk]

<div></div><div></div><p>Still pretty much anecdotal rather than fact but.....</p><p>It seems Sacred aegis does not give this problem but Umbral rituaul and torpor both seem to affect the guardian ability Hold the line and its upgrades.</p><p>It did also seem that several lines of spells may affect it as it also seems the assasins hate transferance ability seemed to kill it to.</p><p>Basically on hitting Umbral release for instance , the Hold the line buff immediately disapears as if over written and comes back as soon as the ward is used up.</p><p>I have no numbers and I have not tested this in any way properly other those fairly simple tests.</p><p>If anyone can expand further on this it would be great.</p><p>Message Edited by Domiuk on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 AM</span></p>

[Thatdumbg]

It's all milarkey according to my testing.60 Mystic and Guardian, tested using Sacred Aegis (Single) and Umbral Sacrament. First off placing the spells on the guardian did NOT suspend the icon or effect of Inflaming defense before the pull.We tested this a few ways against mobs in Shimmering Citadel:1) I cast the teens group ward (350something ward), he has inflaming defense up (which procs for 444 hate). 50 percent chance of a proc. He pulls mob via proximity, inflaming defense goes off on the first hit, mob sticks to him. He has no attacks going, and no armor w/ procs on, and the mob just beats on him. We saw the gestures and everything, and he also said he sees a red spell effect on the mob along with the taunt as normal.2) He proxy pulls another mob, this time without wards on or anything. A second or two into it I use a single target ward on him (he has procced the HTL effect once when the ward lands), he is again not attacking or doing any kind of damage to the mob. I am standing right next to him to help rule out proximity aggro. Just the proc off inflaming defense in the time it takes the mob to eat through the ward allows him to hold aggro through the single target ward and then a group ward (the group ward times out, the single was eaten through).Seems to be working just fine to me.<div></div>