Differences between Defiler & Mystic

[AeonSto]

Can the more knowledgable players offer their insight into the differences between a mystic and a defiler? The only one I know that stands out is the mystics single target cure all vs the defilers long cooldown group cure all even while stunned.Which has higher dps? is it significant? which is better at healing? Do mystics needs to sacrifice life for direct heals like defilers? does this mean defilers are moer mana efficent? Do mystics get something like forced canabalize? etc..Thanks!<div></div>

[trin ka]

<div></div><div></div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=3382&query.id=2751#M3382" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=3382&query.id=2751#M3382</a></div><div> </div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=5515&query.id=2785#M5515" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=5515&query.id=2785#M5515</a></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>-just 2 out of the many disscussions about the 2 subclasses...search the forums your bound to find more with your answers.</div><div>-I'm actually bringing up a defiler right now(lvl2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..kinda curious myself about the dark side mystic.</div><p>Message Edited by trin kahl on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by trin kahl on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:27 AM</span></p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>AeonStorm wrote:Can the more knowledgable players offer their insight into the differences between a mystic and a defiler? The only one I know that stands out is the mystics single target cure all vs the defilers long cooldown group cure all even while stunned.Which has higher dps? is it significant? which is better at healing? Do mystics needs to sacrifice life for direct heals like defilers? does this mean defilers are moer mana efficent? Do mystics get something like forced canabalize? etc..Thanks!<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p>Mystics are 10 times better than defilers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p> </p><p>all jokes aside, defilers own mystic in the MT grp, with tendril of terror, spiritual circle, and the highest HP buff out of ALL the priest.</p><p>healing wise we are pretty similar, but defilers have force cannibalize and with their heals taking hp to reduce power, they are more power efficient.</p><p>so yeah i guess i lied <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> defilers > mystics <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by radical_EDWARD on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:25 AM</span></p>

[paisan]

<div></div><p>Saying that a defiler "Owns" a mystic in a MT group is ignorant to say the least.</p><p>Defilers are slightly better when a MT's stamina is maxed... situational.</p><p>Mystics are slightly better in all other circumstances due to other buffs and greater heals.</p><p>Please do not contribute in misinformation.</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>Saying that a defiler "Owns" a mystic in a MT group is ignorant to say the least.</p><p>Defilers are slightly better when a MT's stamina is maxed... situational.</p><p>Mystics are slightly better in all other circumstances due to other buffs and greater heals.</p><p>Please do not contribute in misinformation.</p><hr></blockquote><p>lets see, replace a mystic with a defiler in ANY MT grp and i guaranty you the MT will have way more HP. STA cap or not.</p><p>you say that you have greater heals ? lol pls give me a break, defiler ward pet is 10 times better than mystic badger, their heals heal for more and are much more power efficient. Their Debuff proc Tendril of Terror is one of the best slow in the game, best on a MT. They also have a dmg proc that they can put on the MT for help with agro.</p><p>pls correct me if im wrong, but it make alot more sense to put a defiler in the MT than a mystic.</p><p> </p>

[trin ka]

<div></div><p>Depends on the lvl of spells the character in question is rocking. My lvl 60 single target heal has topped off at about 1400. Think the highest ive seen is 1414...at lvl 60..seeing your a defiler Ed...what does your single target heal blast for? I'm rolling a defiler right now (lvl 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so I'm a little curious. I could care less whos better or not...from playing with a guild that "knows" thier characters..and playing in pick up groups with randoms...how good a certain mystic or defiler is to me depends on his/her knowledge of thier toon/lvl of thier spells. If your a harclave mystic/defiler wearing lvl 40 gear at lvl 60 with crap spells....well then.</p><p>Just as a cheesy example....was looking for a templar the other night for Cazels Mesa. Found a lvl 57 Templar...sweet right? Sanctuary rules that zone....unfortualty this lvl 57 Templar had never heard of this spell...and they were guilded which made it worse. To me , after playing this game for about 9 months...it seems to be the human punching the buttons, not the subclass of healer that makes the best player.</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trin kahl wrote:<div></div><p>Depends on the lvl of spells the character in question is rocking. My lvl 60 single target heal has topped off at about 1400. Think the highest ive seen is 1414...at lvl 60..seeing your a defiler Ed...what does your single target heal blast for?</p><hr><p> </p><p>heres a taste of what awaiting you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> welcome to real leetness. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p><img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/emanji/spells.jpg"></p></blockquote>

[trin ka]

<div></div>Thats cool thanks for the list...was looking for something similiar on the defiler boards..spell screenies from ingame...all I could find was some word doc or something. Thanks again.

[paisan]

<div></div><p>Ok here we go. Again.</p><p> "Own" is a stupid term to use here. It normally means a great deal above the way children use it. As is "leet" or whatever other way you choose to brutalize the english language.</p><p>WAY more Hp... is 100 WAY more? Because thats about the difference unless stamina is maxed. If it is please read above post.</p><p>Ward pet is all fine and dandy. Why yours stays put and mine follows me ill have to ask a dev...  BTW do you have torpor? Oberon? Have fun healing yourself while using your "WAY" better heals too.</p><p>Quote:</p><p> Their Debuff <font color="#ff3300">proc</font> Tendril of Terror is one of the best slow in the game, best on a MT. They also have a dmg <font color="#ff0000">proc</font> that they can put on the MT for help with agro.</p><p>Can you find the key word here? I would rather cast a spell every minute or so and ensure 100% coverage of my debuffs...</p><p>Nice pictures in your other post but change a few names here and there and it looks awfully familiar.</p><p>Basically what i am saying here is that EITHER ONE IS VIABLE IN A MT GROUP. Neither class is leagues and bounds ahead of the other. Certain situations cause one to rise above the other. BY A LITTLE.</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>Ok here we go. Again.</p><p> "Own" is a stupid term to use here. It normally means a great deal above the way children use it. As is "leet" or whatever other way you choose to brutalize the english language.</p><p>WAY more Hp... is 100 WAY more? Because thats about the difference unless stamina is maxed. If it is please read above post.</p><p>Ward pet is all fine and dandy. Why yours stays put and mine follows me ill have to ask a dev...  BTW do you have torpor? Oberon? Have fun healing yourself while using your "WAY" better heals too.</p><p>Quote:</p><p> Their Debuff <font color="#ff3300">proc</font> Tendril of Terror is one of the best slow in the game, best on a MT. They also have a dmg <font color="#ff0000">proc</font> that they can put on the MT for help with agro.</p><p>Can you find the key word here? I would rather cast a spell every minute or so and ensure 100% coverage of my debuffs...</p><p>Nice pictures in your other post but change a few names here and there and it looks awfully familiar.</p><p>Basically what i am saying here is that EITHER ONE IS VIABLE IN A MT GROUP. Neither class is leagues and bounds ahead of the other. Certain situations cause one to rise above the other. BY A LITTLE.</p><hr></blockquote>well first of all torpor can be cast out of grp, i dont even know why you brought that up. Second i guaranty i can give alot more than 100hp over a mystic lol, the different between portent and avatar alone is more than 100hp. Defiler have a self buff that gives us 90 hp regen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i surely dont have to "self heal" much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> my grp heal heals for about 200more hp than u <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yeah own is probably not the right word, lets just say defilers are alot better than a mystic in MT in every situation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> there isnt one situation where a mystic is better that i can think of, nuff said.</div>

[paisan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>Basically what i am saying here is that EITHER ONE IS VIABLE IN A MT GROUP. Neither class is leagues and bounds ahead of the other. Certain situations cause one to rise above the other. BY A LITTLE.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok i ran the numbers. It was a little more than i expected but only because i have better spells than any of the defilers i raid with.</p><p>Paladins recieve 5hp/1stamina so for the 3 buffs in question: (all master spells)</p><p>Defiler = 1951hp + 59stamina = 2246hp</p><p>Mystic = 964hp + 193stamina = 1929hp</p><p>HP difference of 317hp... hardly "Owned" when the mystic also recieves an extra 246 power and 59 agility over the defiler. (738 total power versus 492) Actually where the defiler really shines is buffing the hp of casters who recieve a lot less hp/stamina.</p>

[Homj]

im not fully equiped with M1 buffs, i have only Umbrall mettle and Foretelling M1. All other buffs are adept 3. But in MT group with zerker as a tank the difference between me and defiler is about 700hp. thats huge difference imo.the buff setup is pretty standart, and offcourse im using avatar and Foretelling on main tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />about ward pet versus our healing pet. since some wards dont stack, defilers's pet lose his effectiveness. but i may be wrong with that.

[scl]

Well, speaking from the position of a MT and raid leader, I would put a Defiler before a Mystic more often than not. Firstly, STA isn't exactly hard to cap when raid buffed, so the direct hp increase of a Defiler is far more beneficial than the Mystic's STA buff. Secondly, why are your arguing over who heals better in a raid? Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.<p>However, it must be pointed out that Defilers have the potential to burn through power a lot quicker than Mystics. The Defilers debuffs are awesome and if they are unable to contribute those to the raid then it may be a wiser choice to place a Mystic in the MT group and sacrifice some hp, but have the Defiler constantly debuffing, which will probably mitigate the hp loss.</p><p>To sum up, a Shaman will always be in the MT group, but for me it would come down to whether the Defiler can play or not. If they can handle their power and still get the debuffs in, they are MT group every time for me. However, if the Defiler can't really handle multi tasking or power management then it is probably more beneficial to have a Mystic. Regardless of who's there, they are both great assets to the group but healing power should not really come into the argument when regarding raids.</p><p>Oh, and the Defiler pet is way cooler! *winks*</p>

[bouhh]

<div><font color="#ff3300">Secondly, why are your arguing over who heals better in a raid? Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.</font></div><div><font color="#ff3300"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">heh. c'mon guys, lets let this one slide... little too much drama on these boards lately...</font></div><div> </div><div>just an fyi tho...shamen (and women) are some of your best damage prevention...best not take them for granted!</div><div> </div><div>ps. paisan you da man.</div><div> </div><div>:smileyhappy:</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.eqsig.com/sig/2560.png" alt="Your Signature"></div>

[tebion]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>bouhhan wrote:<div> </div><div>just an fyi tho...shamen (and women) are some of your best damage prevention...best not take them for granted!</div><hr></blockquote>ouch, that hurts from a shaman <span>:smileysad:</span>shaman has absolutely and neverendingly <b>nothing</b> to do with man/womanthe multiple of shaman is ... shamAn, NOT shamEn, shamans or the really really hurting shamens!otherwise, completely agree, lets pls get rid of the drama, both shaman classes work well atm and are compareable, everyone has his benefits and backsides, but well, thats the trick of a multiple-class system, no? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div><p>Message Edited by tebion on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:01 AM</span></p>

[AeonSto]

<span><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:Secondly, why are your arguing over who heals better in a raid? Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.<hr></blockquote>I would be very interested in why you say this actually, as I am making a healing class to heal, everything else is icing on the cake and secondary.I am not just interested in raids however, raids are secondary to my real purpose which is PvP. I will be rolling on the pvp servers and im trying to find out what healer would be a better choice in a group pvp environment.You say shaman types are not wanted for healing on raids, does that carry over into pvp i wonder. Are druids wanted for healing on raids or is it mainly clerics?</span><div></div>

[scl]

<blockquote><hr>tebion wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>bouhhan wrote:<div></div><div>just an fyi tho...shamen (and women) are some of your best damage prevention...best not take them for granted!</div><hr></blockquote>the multiple of shaman is ... shamAn, NOT shamEn...</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Cheers. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But yeah, when I set up the MT group I don't cry if I've only got a Mystic and wish I had a Defiler instead and vice versa.</p><p></p>

[Terq]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>scl wrote:....  Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from on this, but I have to disagree with your presentation and conclusion.  Due to the way a ward works, if a Mystic or Defiler tries to maintain a ward up 100% of the time on the MT durring a raid, he will be out of power very quickly.  After the initial damage on the pull, your main priority should be keeping those debuffs up.  If a mob is totally debuffed, then the damage coming in on the MT should be very manageable. </p><p>However, there is no better tool for dealing with those big damage spikes than a ward.  Drop one on the MT, and let the regens, reactives and other heals do thier thing.  This "heal" makes it much easier for the raid to get the MT back up at max HP.  So, yes, we are there to heal.  We just happen to have more than one job on a raid. </p>

[scl]

<blockquote><hr>AeonStorm wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:Secondly, why are your arguing over who heals better in a raid? Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.<hr></blockquote>I would be very interested in why you say this actually, as I am making a healing class to heal, everything else is icing on the cake and secondary.I am not just interested in raids however, raids are secondary to my real purpose which is PvP. I will be rolling on the pvp servers and im trying to find out what healer would be a better choice in a group pvp environment.You say shaman types are not wanted for healing on raids, does that carry over into pvp i wonder. Are druids wanted for healing on raids or is it mainly clerics?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>It's pretty much a raid only thing. Shamans are very capable of single healing a normal group. That being said, I would look at a Shaman as damage prevention, rather than a healer. After all, who cares how much you can heal if no one is taking damage in the first place?<p>I've fought both a Mystic and Defiler in PvP and they are both formidable opponents. However, without trying to stir the pot, Furies are easily the hardest class I've fought in a duel.</p><p>I have watched a Fury duel a Mystic though. It was a very long fight... almost 15 minutes or so from what I remember and it was VERY close too. I think the Fury won, but only barely. On a different day the Mystic could have won.</p>

[AeonSto]

15 minute fights = who ever has allies show up first hehAlso, im not so worried about 1v1 fights at all, as i will be rolling with a group of friends, and most likely joining a guild aswell. Group pvp will be most of my pvp interaction im sure.As for shamans healing, dont they have wards AND heals? in the screenshots above it shows the defiler having a heal that does 1700 healing, and then have ward spells ontop of that. Do shamans have both worlds? The heals seem like a lot more then what my warden heals for.<div></div>

[scl]

<blockquote><hr>Terq wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>scl wrote:.... Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from on this, but I have to disagree with your presentation and conclusion. Due to the way a ward works, if a Mystic or Defiler tries to maintain a ward up 100% of the time on the MT durring a raid, he will be out of power very quickly. After the initial damage on the pull, your main priority should be keeping those debuffs up. If a mob is totally debuffed, then the damage coming in on the MT should be very manageable.</p><p>However, there is no better tool for dealing with those big damage spikes than a ward. Drop one on the MT, and let the regens, reactives and other heals do thier thing. This "heal" makes it much easier for the raid to get the MT back up at max HP. So, yes, we are there to heal. We just happen to have more than one job on a raid.</p><hr></blockquote>Certainly! I agree. A shaman can't keep wards up 100% of the time - if they could, what would be the point of the other healers? They may as well go home. My point is, Shamans only really need to heal (on a raid) if there is a real emergency. Otherwise, Druids and Clerics should be healing when your wards are down, whether that be because you are busy debuffing or if you're just conserving power.<p>The bottom line is that raiding must be a team effort. The way I see it, Shamans are that to help conserve the power of Clerics and Druids, whilst, as you say... preventing damage spikes and Druids and Clerics are there to keep health constant, whilst helping a Shaman conserve power and enable them to debuff when needed.</p><p>Is my presentation a little better now?</p><p></p>

[Terq]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:<p>Is my presentation a little better now?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Yup, much better.  I can get on board with that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:<p>I have watched a Fury duel a Mystic though. It was a very long fight... almost 15 minutes or so from what I remember and it was VERY close too. I think the Fury won, but only barely. On a different day the Mystic could have won.</p><hr></blockquote>lol must be a very sucky player playing that mystic lol. if a healer is half way decent and have good gear, it is impossible for another healer to kill him/her. And if you think 15 min is long, one time i duel our guild warden, at the 45min mark we both have over 85% hp and power <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Teaen Arcarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AeonStorm wrote:Can the more knowledgable players offer their insight into the differences between a mystic and a defiler? The only one I know that stands out is the mystics single target cure all vs the defilers long cooldown group cure all even while stunned.Which has higher dps? is it significant? which is better at healing? Do mystics needs to sacrifice life for direct heals like defilers? does this mean defilers are moer mana efficent? Do mystics get something like forced canabalize? etc..Thanks!<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Heh, I was excited to see this post because I am considering making a shaman alt, but having a tough time deciding between mystic or defiler.  But it seems it was quickly narrowed down to which class squeezes out the most hp, debuffing, whatever, in a raid.</p><p>Also, to the poster with the links, those links are not recent.  One is a year old, and the other is just after the combat changes and people still didn't really have much figured out yet.</p><p>It would be nice to hear just a generally breakdown of the class differences.   Are there any spells that a mystic gets and a defiler doesn't, or vice versa?   Are there any *significant* differences between the spell lines that they do share?  For example, is one more suited to encounter debuffs versus single target debuffs, etc?</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teaen Arcarius wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Heh, I was excited to see this post because I am considering making a shaman alt, but having a tough time deciding between mystic or defiler.  But it seems it was quickly narrowed down to which class squeezes out the most hp, debuffing, whatever, in a raid.</blockquote><p>Also, to the poster with the links, those links are not recent.  One is a year old, and the other is just after the combat changes and people still didn't really have much figured out yet.</p><p>It would be nice to hear just a generally breakdown of the class differences.   Are there any spells that a mystic gets and a defiler doesn't, or vice versa?   Are there any *significant* differences between the spell lines that they do share?  For example, is one more suited to encounter debuffs versus single target debuffs, etc?</p><hr></blockquote>all i have to say is. Forced Cannibalize FTW , 60 power per tick = ownzor. if you want that spell, be a defiler <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[trin ka]

<div>Forgot where I stated they were recent....in the future I will email you my posts to see if they are "up-to-date" enough for you. Of course you could have found the original poster some info on the boards that might have helped him......but its much easier for you just to type something negative.</div>

[Surly_Smurf]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:<p>I have watched a Fury duel a Mystic though. It was a very long fight... almost 15 minutes or so from what I remember and it was VERY close too. I think the Fury won, but only barely. On a different day the Mystic could have won.</p><hr></blockquote><blockquote dir="ltr"><div>lol must be a very sucky player playing that mystic lol. if a healer is half way decent and have good gear, it is impossible for another healer to kill him/her. And if you think 15 min is long, one time i duel our guild warden, at the 45min mark we both have over 85% hp and power <img border="0" width="16" height="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></div><div> </div><div>__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________</div><div> </div></blockquote><div>I remember fighting a better equpped Templar (meaning he had Prismatic and GEB's for power regen when I did not have them, yet) who was 1 level above me and the fight went on for over an hour before my opponent had to concede the battle. He had to go to bed.                </div><div> </div><div>I didn't.</div><div> </div><div>I honestly feel like if I had that little extra push of power regen it could have tipped the scales enough in my favor.</div><div> </div><div> :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Dragonreal]

<blockquote><hr>AeonStorm wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:Secondly, why are your arguing over who heals better in a raid? Here's a clue... it doesn't matter! Both your classes are last choice when it comes to actual healing. You are not there to heal so it's really a mute point.<hr></blockquote>I would be very interested in why you say this actually, as I am making a healing class to heal, everything else is icing on the cake and secondary.I am not just interested in raids however, raids are secondary to my real purpose which is PvP. I will be rolling on the pvp servers and im trying to find out what healer would be a better choice in a group pvp environment.You say shaman types are not wanted for healing on raids, does that carry over into pvp i wonder. Are druids wanted for healing on raids or is it mainly clerics?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Druids are wanted for mainly for healing I'd say (at least wardens are as our buffs are really situational), but they have the fastest casting heals in the game while the big hitters for heals (templar/defiler) have twice the cast time a druid does. So this amounts to druids landing their smaller* heals first providing a buffer while the heavy hitters are casting theirs; both are valuable and needed.</p><p>*Wardens may have smaller INITIAL heals, but they will do more healing over time than the other classes; that's our tradeoff for having 1) the best efficiency 2) the biggest overall heals 3) fastest (tied with furies) cast times and 4) NOT having insanely long recasts. Templar/defilers get the largest INITIAL heal but have the most cost for it: 1) long cast times (yes I know all hlrs except druids have the same cast time 2) large cost to cast the heal (ie templars have big power costs defilers have to pay in both hp and power); for raiding the defiler's hp cost doesn't really matter too much, but when it comes to healing yourself or healing while you're getting beat on like could happen in pvp, their actual HEALS have some drawbacks. 3) longest recast times of all healers (in the time a temp/defiler can cast/recast their large heal, as a warden I can cast my large heal once, have it refresh, and cast it again before theirs is back up, and I don't even have the fastest recast times (that's an inquisitor thing and furies come second to them).</p><p>But a defiler's heals really shouldn't matter because wards are where a shaman's strength lies, and defilers have quite a few ways to ward: regenerating ward on ac buff, single target ward, group ward, group ward pet, debuff that procs a ward, 2 emergency wards. Come to think of it actually mystics have the same, just their counter to the ward pet and the debuff are the lvl 50 ward and the lvl 52 ancient spell.</p><p>Really though my point is, as a shaman I wouldn't be too worried about actual heals, and if you really want to know: on a raid, both shaman types will typicallly parse out at the bottom of the heal list. This isn't because they necessarily have bad heals, it's because wards can't be parsed, yet they are the MOST important "heal" in the game (not saying you can run a raid whith only shamans or that you can't raid at all without one, but I can't tell you how many times I've had to hear the raid ldr say we can't do such-and-such today because we have no shamans on, but I've never heard it be said about either a cleric or a druid, meaning there's things they'll attempt without one of those present, but won't even think of without a shammy)</p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><p>Yes forced cannabalize is nice, but you still have the same heals and cast times to deal with it does nothing for your ability to heal, only lets a defiler save money on drink if they're really cheap, and last longer in super long raid fights.</p><p>Mystics for the same lvl get Torpor.  A very cheap to cast (and totally seperate timer from all other heals) regenerating ward + heal over time.</p>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><p>Yes forced cannabalize is nice, but you still have the same heals and cast times to deal with it does nothing for your ability to heal, only lets a defiler save money on drink if they're really cheap, and last longer in super long raid fights.</p><p>Mystics for the same lvl get Torpor.  A very cheap to cast (and totally seperate timer from all other heals) regenerating ward + heal over time.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Agree with the Forced Cannibalize.. but it does allow us to cast a few more spells without having to wory about running OOP all the time.. Also nice when we get dead on a pull because of a brain-farted ward before pull.. that we can get rezed and be right back in the fight (0 power to cast)</p><p>As for Torpor.. Unlike the Defiler Spiritual Circle (Group ward) or our reactive Slow Proc.. they are only effective if in the MT group.. whereas Torpor can be cast cross raid (From what I'm told) so if you really want to maximize your warding benefit, it would be to put a Defiler in the MT group, and put a Mystic in your offtank group, or melee group.. and use Torpor on the tank from there.. Because our "standard" wards (Solo, group, and instants) are identical in values at the same spell level, there's no difference there as your group ward you would use in the MT group is the same as our group ward we would use in the MT group..</p>

[icetower]

<div></div><p>We have 2 regular MT's who are both capped on str (waaay over on str, around 700) and also on stamina.</p><p>The only reason I'm still in the MT group is because we have no lvl 60 defiler.</p><p>The +hp component of their buff leaves ours for dead, and I'm also annoyed at having my own str pointlessly maxxed with self buffs and numerous +str/stam on chain pieces while stats I would actually use are constantly left out.</p><p>Mystics buff str and stam, therefore they must want it on all their gear too right?</p>

[TheRealMo]

<span><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><p>We have 2 regular MT's who are both capped on str (waaay over on str, around 700) and also on stamina.</p><p>The only reason I'm still in the MT group is because we have no lvl 60 defiler.</p><hr></blockquote>I'm in the same boat here. Once we get a 60 defiler (and several such alts are on the way), my days in the MT group will be a thing of the past. <span>:smileysad:</span></span><div></div>

[icetower]

<div></div><p>Update</p><p>I just got replaced by a lower level defiler in the mt group in a recent raid. I feel that stat buffs are going to be our nemesis.</p><p>Theres more, but in summary I'll just say that the Ideal raid force seems to becoming 1 of each priest if available, with a 2nd or 3rd fury welcome first if any priestly gaps need filling.</p>

[The Lurking Shaman]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><p>Update</p><p>I just got replaced by a lower level defiler in the mt group in a recent raid. I feel that stat buffs are going to be our nemesis.</p><p>....<span></span></p><blockquote><hr>I think that it is pretty safe to say that anybody who played a raid shaman in eq1 saw this coming...</blockquote></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Homj]

if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[radical_EDWARD]

<blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote><p>thats not really true <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><img src="http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6554/emanji015xy.jpg"></p>

[paisan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>scl wrote:<blockquote>Certainly! I agree. A shaman can't keep wards up 100% of the time - if they could, what would be the point of the other healers? They may as well go home. My point is, Shamans only really need to heal (on a raid) if there is a real emergency. Otherwise, Druids and Clerics should be healing when your wards are down, whether that be because you are busy debuffing or if you're just conserving power.</blockquote><p>The bottom line is that raiding must be a team effort. The way I see it, <font color="#ff0000">Shamans are that to help conserve the power of Clerics and Druids</font>, whilst, as you say... preventing damage spikes and Druids and Clerics are there to keep health constant, whilst helping a Shaman conserve power and enable them to debuff when needed.</p><p>Is my presentation a little better now?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>I agree with your statement except the red portion. We are definitely not subservient. What makes the clerics or druids power so much more of a valuable commodity?

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Actually if you had to find a catagory one or the other wins in I'd reverse this.  Defilers have ONE slow debuff and it's a reverse proc that doesn't slow as much as mystic slows, we have 2 of them as well as 2 dps debuffs and all 4 stack.  They also have a stat debuff that works on a flat percentage of the mobs max, making it MUCH MUCH weaker if anyone else has used a debuff on the mob, mystics debuffs are flat numbers, as effective on the pull as they are 2 minutes into the fight.  However defilers have much larger direct heals with much less mana used to cast them and their self buff form more than makes up for their HP costs if they upgrade it.  Also their ward pet blocks a TON more damage than our heal pet can put back so yeah they heal quite a bit better than us actually, just our other tools balance it out.

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Actually if you had to find a catagory one or the other wins in I'd reverse this.  Defilers have ONE slow debuff and it's a reverse proc that doesn't slow as much as mystic slows, we have 2 of them as well as 2 dps debuffs and all 4 stack. <hr></blockquote>lol last time i check i have 3 slow debuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not ONE</div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Actually if you had to find a catagory one or the other wins in I'd reverse this.  Defilers have ONE slow debuff and it's a reverse proc that doesn't slow as much as mystic slows, we have 2 of them as well as 2 dps debuffs and all 4 stack. <hr></blockquote>lol last time i check i have 3 slow debuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not ONE</div><hr></blockquote><p>Ok, I stand corrected, but you also aren't correct. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Defilers have two SLOWS, you are most likely mistaking the bloodlines spell as a slow, examine it, dps debuff not a slow.</p><p>Defilers have Degenerate and Tendrils of Terror for actual slows, and comparing adept 3's they are identical in debuff amount to the mystic's two slows, the differnence is that while Tendrils of Terror is great for non linked encounters it isn't as effective on a large linked grp.  Our single target slow debuffs just as much as yours and our 2nd slow is an aoe encounter spell.  So on linked mobs our is on EVERY mob (barring the odd resist) from the moment we cast.  Yours while it does proc a lot will rarely if ever land on every mob in the encounter at all before they die, it does leave us in the dust for non linked encounters but if you have a lot of non linked stuff outside of the MoTM event you screwed up anyway. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[MalkorGodchyld]

<div></div><div><font size="2">Ummm...we DO have 3 slows & while we're at it,  2 dps debuffs as well.   </font></div><div><font size="2"> Hefty ones! :smileyhappy:        Thats not including the bloodline spell btw.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"> ~Retired 60 Defiler ~</font></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MalkorGodchyld wrote:<div></div><div><font size="2">Ummm...we DO have 3 slows & while we're at it,  2 dps debuffs as well.   </font></div><div><font size="2"> Hefty ones! :smileyhappy:        Thats not including the bloodline spell btw.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"> ~Retired 60 Defiler ~</font></div><hr></blockquote>What's the name of the third then?  I seriously have looked everywhere I can to find a third and it appears in no lists anywhere I've looked nor have I seen any one on forums mention it save one defiler also saying 3 slows but named the bloodlines spell as one of them.  I know about Degeneration and Tendrils of Terror, what am I missing?

[The Lurking Shaman]

Mystic slows can be cast from any group.  Tendrils is really only effective from in MT group (correct me if I am wrong please defilers). <div></div>

[MalkorGodchyld]

<div></div><div></div><div><font size="2">Fuliginous Tendril  =  Single target  slow/DoT         Thats the latest spell we get in that line.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2">And your right about Tendrils...it can only be cast on a group member or yourself.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2">~ Retired 60 Defiler ~</font></div><p>Message Edited by MalkorGodchyld on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 PM</span></p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Ok, I stand corrected, but you also aren't correct. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Defilers have two SLOWS, you are most likely mistaking the bloodlines spell as a slow, examine it, dps debuff not a slow.</blockquote><p>Defilers have Degenerate and Tendrils of Terror for actual slows, and comparing adept 3's they are identical in debuff amount to the mystic's two slows, the differnence is that while Tendrils of Terror is great for non linked encounters it isn't as effective on a large linked grp.  Our single target slow debuffs just as much as yours and our 2nd slow is an aoe encounter spell.  So on linked mobs our is on EVERY mob (barring the odd resist) from the moment we cast.  Yours while it does proc a lot will rarely if ever land on every mob in the encounter at all before they die, it does leave us in the dust for non linked encounters but if you have a lot of non linked stuff outside of the MoTM event you screwed up anyway. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><p>lol i am Emanji , I'm NEVER WRONG. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p><img src="http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6554/emanji015xy.jpg"></p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MalkorGodchyld wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><font size="2">Fuliginous Tendril  =  Single target  slow/DoT         Thats the latest spell we get in that line.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2">And your right about Tendrils...it can only be cast on a group member or yourself.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2">~ Retired 60 Defiler ~</font></div><p>Message Edited by MalkorGodchyld on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh okie, I saw the dot and stopped reading description on that one. lol  That's another 10.6% slow (adept 3) on top of already having the exact same slowing ability that mystics do.  I love you guys an all that but I'm feeling a bit shafted now.  Aside from your handicap of losing one major debuff outside the MT grp how exactly are we sposed to be balanced when you are better at every aspect?  I thought we at least won on the debuffing.  You get more slows, one of which costs you ZERO incombat mana, more damage both self and damage boost to the grp, bigger heals which also cost less to cast, mana taps for self and grp...  What does a mystic get?  Well at least I'm not stuck in Freeport. LOL

[MalkorGodchyld]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p> <font size="2"> Actually we ARE decently balanced dude...for one we get no group dmg increase of any kind and our "mana tap" is a self stun.  As for heals, the reason ours are slightly less power is because we sacrifice health while healing.</font><font size="2">    I've been in close fights where i had enough power to heal but couldn't because i didn't have enough health...     trust me that sucks!  </font></p><p><font size="2">   And unlike mystics the only group debuff we have is for poison/disease.    Anyway i'm not a guru on<em> both </em>classes and im too lazy to look up the specifics to compare and contrast every aspect but im sure others have already done it.        There's a few areas where we differ slightly but not so much to where one class stands head & shoulders above the other.</font></p><p><font size="2"></font> </p><p><font size="2"> ~ Retired 60 Defiler ~</font></p><p><font size="2">Message Edited by MalkorGodchyld on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:09 PM</span></font></p><p>Message Edited by MalkorGodchyld on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:12 PM</span></p>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><p>Well.. as far as Mystic vs. Defiler for MT group.. Defilers lose effectiveness if we're outside the MT group because of Tendrils of Terror.. As for who debuffs the best??!.. well on Linked encounters it goes to Mystics.. but Defilers own single target..</p><p>Here are ALL of our debuffs:</p><p>Abhorrence = All stats by 32%Degenerate = 24% slow - 16.6% DPSLoathsome Seal = 59STR, 59AGI, 59WizTendrils of Terror = 24% Slow, 32% DPS (Proc)Fuliginous Tendril = 12.1% SlowInfestation = 99 WizRuinous Anthena = 944 NoxCaliginous Corruption = 960 Nox (Encounter)</p><p> </p><p>The biggest thing here is that we have one AE debuff, and it's Nox resists.. no slows.. so yes.. Mystics win out AE for sure.. but if you ask me, I'd still take both on a raid.. for us to keep ALL of these debuffs up we have to chain cast the entire fight.. with the odd ward and heal thrown in if needed..</p>

[sostrows]

<div></div><div></div>Defilers get the nob for MT grps right now.  The rev proc Tendrils / Circle / HP advantage kinda tip the scales for us. Now if I had to pick between a Fabled Mystic and a Treasured Defiler - Mystic all the way etc.  I would rather have a excellent player with a mystic than a flaky player defiler etc.Having said that, my guild often runs with a Guard/Dirge/Conj/Temp/Defiler/Mystic MT combo.  Some of that has been because we were druid lacking.We have the luxury of having more defilers than mystics in my guild which makes a big difference too.And if a raid pull goes well.....I should have healed for 0 hp.I remember we were doing SOTL for fun, and the mobs were not getting thru wards, allowing the clerics and druids to do whatever DPS they could i guess.  Shamans are your first line of active ward/healing defense.  I don't bother healing as the druids do it much better and I got debuffing to do.p.s.  Abhorrence -% stats is off base stats not current stats.<div></div><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:12 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by sostrows on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:18 PM</span></p>

[canislupus64]

<div>My personal believe is to have a Defiler in MT group and have a mystic in another group. Defilers are just better buffers of HP then mystics due to the fact defilers buff HP directly while mystics buff STA.</div><div> </div><div>I like having a defiler in MT group becasue defilers can heal for more, ward for the same, and have nice MT debuff procs.</div><div> </div><div>Having a mystic outside of MT will take advantage of sta buffs for the other group he/she is in and will allow for the mystic to run through there full line of debuffs and to single target ward the mt if needed.</div><div> </div><div>Also Torpor is a nice spell to have on the MT after they establish good aggro.</div>

[Rhe]

The defiler ward pet puts out 500 hps every 5 secs for 1 minute, add in their group wards and single target ward, you better keep them in the Main Tank group to avoid damage.  Anyone can heal, and the Mystic heal pet is just another healer that lasts 20 seconds with a 1 minute recast.Mystics have other abilities and they do them well, but with how they set up the classes, I'd put a mystic in with casters and dps moreso than the MT group.  They buff power considerably better than a defiler and have considerably better heals and can still give group ward to help with some AE damage.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

Since when is not being in the MT group "demoted?"  Every member of a raid is important, especially healers, no matter what # is beside your group label.With that said, of course Defilers are better, we CONTROL the spirits and make them do our bidding, Mystics just pray to them and hope for the best.<div></div>

[Munter78]

<div>Ok, stopped reading the rest of the posts, had to stop at this one. </div><div> </div><div>In an MT group, depending on the type of tank you are using, either a mystic or a defiler can come into play.  The mystic gives huge STA vs. the defiler, so if you are using a guardian, whom gets a large amount of HP per sta, a mystic is the choice.  Where as a bruiser may be better suited to be with a defiler.  Defilers will be slightly better suited vs disease, and Mystics with poison.  Debuff wise, both classes basically even out as far as debuffs and such,  we took our mystic and defiler, both master'd out and proved the STA debuffs, about 25% the mobs hp.  </div><div> </div><div>The HP/Power Buff......Defiler will give more slightly more HP then the mystic, however the Mystic gives a bit more power in the trade off. point for point, the mystics spell gives more hp and power combined, so if your tank is running low on power alot, use the mystic, or if low on hp alot, use the defiler. </div><div> </div><div>Defiler has a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ward pet, which is about the same ability of Oberon for a mystic, minus the stun. haha.  The bad side of this, in a raid,  that pet will INSTANTLY get the defiler killed on a pull if already up, and if cast later in the fight, it will die to ANY AE, since it only has a 10m range.   The mystics healing pet however, can help heal the whole group, which from an AE stand point, is alot more beneficial to a raid MT group.</div><div> </div><div>As far as efficient, only one class is more efficent power wise then a mystic, that would be an inquisitor. this is only refering to heals/wards.</div><div> </div><div>Ok, now lets break down DPS and attack speed reductions.</div><div> </div><div>Defiler</div><div>Tendrils of Terror</div><div>  36 seconds (8% chance) single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 32%</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Fulginous Tendril</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 12.1%</div><div>Degenerate</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>  DPS reduction of 16.5%</div><div> </div><div>Mystic</div><div>Grieving Soul</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 34%</div><div>Umbral Trap</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target, can only be used every 3 minutes</div><div>  DPS reduction of 16.5%</div><div>Weeping Haze</div><div> unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Dreadful Lethargy</div><div>  unsure on timer, target encounter</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div> </div><div>I basically put unsure on timer, I believe all are 1 minute 15 seconds? some may vary.</div><div> </div><div>so basically,</div><div>Mystic</div><div>DPS reduction of 50.5%, attack speed reduction of 48%, 24% of that on the whole encounter</div><div> </div><div>Defiler,</div><div>DPS reduction of UP TO 48.5% (8% chance), attack speed reduction of UP TO 60.1% (again, 8%)</div><div> </div><div>Ok, assuming here, that Tendrils of Terror works, which, in a high end raid, some mobs can kill a tank in 3 hits....so...</div><div>I dont really assume this will land, off the bat, so I will say for the large part, a Defiler is really only....</div><div>DPS reduction of 16.5% and attack speed reduction of 36.1%</div><div> </div><div>Here again, take the Mystic if you really want the raid mob debuffed, in a normal raid, or low end rather, a defilers extra buff may land, so may over run the mystic</div><div>in terms of attack speed reduction, but over the whole encounter, again, mystic would win.</div><div> </div><div>For Stat debuffing, and buffing, again, I wont even bother to list all the spells, but mystic far out does the defiler on stats, hands down. </div><div> </div><div>An additional feature of the Defiler however, is the power draining, and hp draining.  This can be pretty valuable in a raid, but other classes can far outshine</div><div>the defiler in this category. </div><div> </div><div>A defiler can also "cannibalize: himself for power at a cost of hp, at pretty much an even cost.  This is basically a pretty good version of power regen, hence most defilers</div><div>thinking they are efficient. </div><div> </div><div>Hope this may of cleared things up with people.  I will try to read the rest of the posts after the one I replied too later.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Munter78]

<div></div>oh, forgot one more thing, about the defiler being able to heal more,  casting timer is 1 second shorter, and heals can heal slightly more, but can also be done from any group, so its not even relevant.

[icetower]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Munter78 wrote:</p><div>In an MT group, depending on the type of tank you are using, either a mystic or a defiler can come into play.  The mystic gives huge STA vs. the defiler, so if you are using a guardian, whom gets a large amount of HP per sta, a mystic is the choice. </div><hr></blockquote><p>If you hadn't stopped reading you would have been made aware that STA is easily capped, so the advantage is already nonexistant for many Mystics.</p><p>Hopefully tho the devs will continue the trend of the %hp increase in our new 65 spell, which although short duration, is a hugely better idea since it scales. This is the kind of spell that won't become a waste of time (like avatar and spirit of the mammoth) as gear improves.</p>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<div>Ok, stopped reading the rest of the posts, had to stop at this one. </div><div> </div><div>In an MT group, depending on the type of tank you are using, either a mystic or a defiler can come into play.  The mystic gives huge STA vs. the defiler, so if you are using a guardian, whom gets a large amount of HP per sta, a mystic is the choice.  Where as a bruiser may be better suited to be with a defiler.  Defilers will be slightly better suited vs disease, and Mystics with poison.  Debuff wise, both classes basically even out as far as debuffs and such,  we took our mystic and defiler, both master'd out and proved the STA debuffs, about 25% the mobs hp.  </div><div> </div><div>The HP/Power Buff......Defiler will give more slightly more HP then the mystic, however the Mystic gives a bit more power in the trade off. point for point, the mystics spell gives more hp and power combined, so if your tank is running low on power alot, use the mystic, or if low on hp alot, use the defiler. </div><div> </div><div>Defiler has a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ward pet, which is about the same ability of Oberon for a mystic, minus the stun. haha.  The bad side of this, in a raid,  that pet will INSTANTLY get the defiler killed on a pull if already up, and if cast later in the fight, it will die to ANY AE, since it only has a 10m range.   The mystics healing pet however, can help heal the whole group, which from an AE stand point, is alot more beneficial to a raid MT group.</div><div> </div><div>As far as efficient, only one class is more efficent power wise then a mystic, that would be an inquisitor. this is only refering to heals/wards.</div><div> </div><div>Ok, now lets break down DPS and attack speed reductions.</div><div> </div><div>Defiler</div><div>Tendrils of Terror</div><div>  36 seconds (8% chance) single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 32%</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Fulginous Tendril</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 12.1%</div><div>Degenerate</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>  DPS reduction of 16.5%</div><div> </div><div>Mystic</div><div>Grieving Soul</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 34%</div><div><font color="#ff3300">Umbral Trap</font></div><div><font color="#ff3300">  unsure on timer, single target, can only be used every 3 minutes</font></div><div><font color="#ff3300">  DPS reduction of 16.5%</font></div><div>Weeping Haze</div><div> unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Dreadful Lethargy</div><div>  unsure on timer, target encounter</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div> </div><div>I basically put unsure on timer, I believe all are 1 minute 15 seconds? some may vary.</div><div> </div><div>so basically,</div><div>Mystic</div><div>DPS reduction of 50.5%, attack speed reduction of 48%, 24% of that on the whole encounter</div><div> </div><div>Defiler,</div><div>DPS reduction of UP TO 48.5% (8% chance), attack speed reduction of UP TO 60.1% (again, 8%)</div><div> </div><div>Ok, assuming here, that Tendrils of Terror works, which, in a high end raid, some mobs can kill a tank in 3 hits....so...</div><div>I dont really assume this will land, off the bat, so I will say for the large part, a Defiler is really only....</div><div>DPS reduction of 16.5% and attack speed reduction of 36.1%</div><div> </div><div>Here again, take the Mystic if you really want the raid mob debuffed, in a normal raid, or low end rather, a defilers extra buff may land, so may over run the mystic</div><div>in terms of attack speed reduction, but over the whole encounter, again, mystic would win.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">For Stat debuffing, and buffing, again, I wont even bother to list all the spells, but mystic far out does the defiler on stats, hands down</font>. </div><div> </div><div>An additional feature of the Defiler however, is the power draining, and hp draining.  This can be pretty valuable in a raid, but other classes can far outshine</div><div>the defiler in this category. </div><div> </div><div>A defiler can also "cannibalize: himself for power at a cost of hp, at pretty much an even cost.  This is basically a pretty good version of power regen, hence most defilers</div><div>thinking they are efficient. </div><div> </div><div>Hope this may of cleared things up with people.  I will try to read the rest of the posts after the one I replied too later.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>1.Uh... you included umbral trap under mystic and not defiler (it is a subclass based spell ie all shaman get it</p><p>2.You out do a defiler on stat debuffing?..... .................. ........................ ..... ...</p><p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:58 AM</span></p>

[Munter78]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>icetower wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Munter78 wrote:</p><div>In an MT group, depending on the type of tank you are using, either a mystic or a defiler can come into play.  The mystic gives huge STA vs. the defiler, so if you are using a guardian, whom gets a large amount of HP per sta, a mystic is the choice. </div><hr></blockquote><p>If you hadn't stopped reading you would have been made aware that STA is easily capped, so the advantage is already nonexistant for many Mystics.</p><p>Hopefully tho the devs will continue the trend of the %hp increase in our new 65 spell, which although short duration, is a hugely better idea since it scales. This is the kind of spell that won't become a waste of time (like avatar and spirit of the mammoth) as gear improves.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes, I know it can be capped, I have had tanks to over 600 sta and str, but it should be that way.  Alot of MT groups consist of too many healers leaving crucial stats, such as mitigation, avoidance, and haste left unnoticed. 

[Thatdumbg]

Bolster (re) secures a mystic as the MT shaman of choice in my guild, although i currently filled the role anyways.For us it came down to the fact that my gear/power regen/masters were better then the defilers, and I'm much more skilled due to experience. The fact that avatar can add agility also is more of a boon to our current setup.Seriously guys, all of this looks great on paper... but if you don't have the skill and equipment/spells to back it up; it's pretty meaningless.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:Bolster (re) secures a mystic as the MT shaman of choice in my guild, although i currently filled the role anyways.For us it came down to the fact that my gear/power regen/masters were better then the defilers, and I'm much more skilled due to experience. The fact that avatar can add agility also is more of a boon to our current setup.Seriously guys, all of this looks great on paper... but if you don't have the skill and equipment/spells to back it up; it's pretty meaningless.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You seem to have missed one lil tidbit.  Achievments are SUBCLASS based exactly like the bloodlines spells were, so defilers will also have Bolster. (if they do that tree)

[Owlbe]

<div></div><p>No.</p><p> </p><p>Bolster is a Mystic spell not a AA ability so Defilers will never get it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Munter78]

<div></div>Yea, its a lvl 65 spell.  Shammies do share the same AA's, but only two I see are critical to high end raid MT groups.

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Munter, i am looking here <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=5712">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=5712</a> and trying to remember my own research some months ago reguarding this and your info doesnt seem to add up.</p><p>I think Defiler is somewhat better at stat debuffs, % > fixed number.  We have more debuff spells as well.  the nice thing is the raw debuf should stack with the % debuf so we compliment each other.</p><p>I really don't think it is that big a deal, I have just never seen such a one sided and bias comparison of abilities.  I disagree with most of yor comparisons but don't feel like breaking them down.</p><p>Personally I think both shaman are great and very well matched.  I think if only one is in MT group it should be the Defiler since he has a reactive debuf and the mystic can cast his out of group.  THis way both are used, defiler outside of MT group and the raid loses a potential debuf.  Also with the power regen I think the defiler will be the last healer oop if they cast the same but that is just an assumption.  The defiler self hp regen doesnt hurt in a long fight where MT healers get aoe'd either.</p><p>But as someone else said earlier, the skill of the player and the gear and spell level can have alot to do with it.  The best driver is often better than the ideal class.</p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Omegarhino wrote:<div></div><p>No.</p><p> </p><p>Bolster is a Mystic spell not a AA ability so Defilers will never get it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>LOL  Yeah umm, I didn't post that, my 6yr old niece was at my comp and I guess she did.  Yeah that's it.  That's my story and I'm stickin to it! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>On a sidenote, I'll try to remember no posts before the first pot of coffee of the day is down. hehe</p>

[radical_EDWARD]

<div><blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<div>Ok, stopped reading the rest of the posts, had to stop at this one. </div><div> </div><div>In an MT group, depending on the type of tank you are using, either a mystic or a defiler can come into play.  The mystic gives huge STA vs. the defiler, so if you are using a guardian, whom gets a large amount of HP per sta, a mystic is the choice.  Where as a bruiser may be better suited to be with a defiler.  Defilers will be slightly better suited vs disease, and Mystics with poison.  Debuff wise, both classes basically even out as far as debuffs and such,  we took our mystic and defiler, both master'd out and proved the STA debuffs, about 25% the mobs hp.  </div><div> </div><div>The HP/Power Buff......Defiler will give more slightly more HP then the mystic, however the Mystic gives a bit more power in the trade off. point for point, the mystics spell gives more hp and power combined, so if your tank is running low on power alot, use the mystic, or if low on hp alot, use the defiler. </div><div> </div><div>Defiler has a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ward pet, which is about the same ability of Oberon for a mystic, minus the stun. haha.  The bad side of this, in a raid,  that pet will INSTANTLY get the defiler killed on a pull if already up, and if cast later in the fight, it will die to ANY AE, since it only has a 10m range.   The mystics healing pet however, can help heal the whole group, which from an AE stand point, is alot more beneficial to a raid MT group.</div><div> </div><div>As far as efficient, only one class is more efficent power wise then a mystic, that would be an inquisitor. this is only refering to heals/wards.</div><div> </div><div>Ok, now lets break down DPS and attack speed reductions.</div><div> </div><div>Defiler</div><div>Tendrils of Terror</div><div>  36 seconds (8% chance) single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 32%</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Fulginous Tendril</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 12.1%</div><div>Degenerate</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack Speed reduction of 24%</div><div>  DPS reduction of 16.5%</div><div> </div><div>Mystic</div><div>Grieving Soul</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  DPS reduction of 34%</div><div>Umbral Trap</div><div>  unsure on timer, single target, can only be used every 3 minutes</div><div>  DPS reduction of 16.5%</div><div>Weeping Haze</div><div> unsure on timer, single target</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div>Dreadful Lethargy</div><div>  unsure on timer, target encounter</div><div>  Attack speed reduction of 24%</div><div> </div><div>I basically put unsure on timer, I believe all are 1 minute 15 seconds? some may vary.</div><div> </div><div>so basically,</div><div>Mystic</div><div>DPS reduction of 50.5%, attack speed reduction of 48%, 24% of that on the whole encounter</div><div> </div><div>Defiler,</div><div>DPS reduction of UP TO 48.5% (8% chance), attack speed reduction of UP TO 60.1% (again, 8%)</div><div> </div><div>Ok, assuming here, that Tendrils of Terror works, which, in a high end raid, some mobs can kill a tank in 3 hits....so...</div><div>I dont really assume this will land, off the bat, so I will say for the large part, a Defiler is really only....</div><div>DPS reduction of 16.5% and attack speed reduction of 36.1%</div><div> </div><div>Here again, take the Mystic if you really want the raid mob debuffed, in a normal raid, or low end rather, a defilers extra buff may land, so may over run the mystic</div><div>in terms of attack speed reduction, but over the whole encounter, again, mystic would win.</div><div> </div><div>For Stat debuffing, and buffing, again, I wont even bother to list all the spells, but mystic far out does the defiler on stats, hands down. </div><div> </div><div>An additional feature of the Defiler however, is the power draining, and hp draining.  This can be pretty valuable in a raid, but other classes can far outshine</div><div>the defiler in this category. </div><div> </div><div>A defiler can also "cannibalize: himself for power at a cost of hp, at pretty much an even cost.  This is basically a pretty good version of power regen, hence most defilers</div><div>thinking they are efficient. </div><div> </div><div>Hope this may of cleared things up with people.  I will try to read the rest of the posts after the one I replied too later.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>you are so right, mystics are awesome in MT grp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EVERY RAIDING GUILD SHOULD HAVE A MYSTIC IN THE MT GRP <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>BTW: Mystics are overpower and need some nerfing to be on par with defilers.</div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><div></div><p>Why exactly does it matter who has better debuffs when you're supposedly talking about which is better suited for mt group? Debuffs can be cast from anywhere in the raid and have no bearing on whether a healer should or shouldn't be mt grp... EXCEPT for defiler's tendrils proc which since it's a defensive proc means there is only ONE place in a raid where the defiler can really use it from and that's the mt group. Anyone on here trying to argue one class has better debuffs than the other is turning the argument from who's best in mt grp into who's the better class and arguing that is just pointless since both classes have their strengths and their weaknesses and each will fit one person's style better than another's.</p><p>PS: Defiler's canni spell doesn't cost them hp and turn it into power; it's actually a divine dot with no power cost that goes onto the mob, does like 30-35 damage per tick or something and gives power back to the defiler.</p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:46 AM</span></p>

[Munter78]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div><p>Munter, i am looking here <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=5712">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=5712</a> and trying to remember my own research some months ago reguarding this and your info doesnt seem to add up.</p><p>I think Defiler is somewhat better at stat debuffs, % > fixed number.  We have more debuff spells as well.  the nice thing is the raw debuf should stack with the % debuf so we compliment each other.</p><p>I really don't think it is that big a deal, I have just never seen such a one sided and bias comparison of abilities.  I disagree with most of yor comparisons but don't feel like breaking them down.</p><p>Personally I think both shaman are great and very well matched.  I think if only one is in MT group it should be the Defiler since he has a reactive debuf and the mystic can cast his out of group.  THis way both are used, defiler outside of MT group and the raid loses a potential debuf.  Also with the power regen I think the defiler will be the last healer oop if they cast the same but that is just an assumption.  The defiler self hp regen doesnt hurt in a long fight where MT healers get aoe'd either.</p><p>But as someone else said earlier, the skill of the player and the gear and spell level can have alot to do with it.  The best driver is often better than the ideal class.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Actually, you are right about the debuff, I totally forgot about the % to attributes that the defiler has.  And you are also right about defilers being oop last, Only if they cannabilize though.  Which is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good spell hehe.  However, this is where equipment plays the role, flowinng thought FTW hehe.   the reactive debuff you are inquiring too, Im assuming tendrils of terror?  this would actually be better off to be used within a melee group  with haste, like on a monk for example <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  would greatly increase the chance of it proc'ing. </p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>tendrils would do NOTHING for a melee because it only procs when the target GETS HIT not when they hit.

[Docimodo]

<div></div><p>amusing</p><p>well i ask a question of all following posters:</p><p>1.What is your class?</p><p>2.Which group are you invariably always in given that all classes are available?</p><p>Ill start</p><p>1.Defiler</p><p>2.Main Tank group</p>

[Fennir]

1. ranger2. main tank group (pathfinding)<div></div>

[Docimodo]

<div></div>lol..

[DrumDr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trin kahl wrote:<div></div><p>Depends on the lvl of spells the character in question is rocking. <strong>My lvl 60 single target heal has topped off at about 1400. Think the highest ive seen is 1414...at lvl 60..seeing your a defiler Ed</strong>...what does your single target heal blast for? I'm rolling a defiler right now (lvl 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so I'm a little curious. I could care less whos better or not...from playing with a guild that "knows" thier characters..and playing in pick up groups with randoms...how good a certain mystic or defiler is to me depends on his/her knowledge of thier toon/lvl of thier spells. If your a harclave mystic/defiler wearing lvl 40 gear at lvl 60 with crap spells....well then.</p><p>Just as a cheesy example....was looking for a templar the other night for Cazels Mesa. Found a lvl 57 Templar...sweet right? Sanctuary rules that zone....unfortualty this lvl 57 Templar had never heard of this spell...and they were guilded which made it worse. To me , after playing this game for about 9 months...it seems to be the human punching the buttons, not the subclass of healer that makes the best player.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know about ed, but I have healed for close to 1800 with my defiler on guk.. also 60.  The adept 3 of our heal is for 1709.. forget the master.</p><p> </p><p>Drumdrum</p>

[DrumDr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Actually if you had to find a catagory one or the other wins in I'd reverse this.  <strong>Defilers have ONE slow debuff and it's a reverse proc that doesn't slow as much as mystic slows, we have 2 of them as well as 2 dps debuffs and all 4 stack.  They also have a stat debuff that works on a flat percentage of the mobs max, making it MUCH MUCH weaker if anyone else has used a debuff on the mob,</strong> mystics debuffs are flat numbers, as effective on the pull as they are 2 minutes into the fight.  However defilers have much larger direct heals with much less mana used to cast them and their self buff form more than makes up for their HP costs if they upgrade it.  Also their ward pet blocks a TON more damage than our heal pet can put back so yeah they heal quite a bit better than us actually, just our other tools balance it out.<hr></blockquote><p>Actually, you are very wrong here.  We have 2 direct slow debuffs, and also a triggered slow as well.  Yes all stack.  And you are wrong with how the stat works... it works off of the original stats, not debuffed ones.  That is why if you chain the debuff you don't see multiple stamina heals (where it looks like the health goes down, but it doesn't, it is just recalculating). </p><p> </p><p>Drummy</p><p>60 defiler on guk</p>

[DrumDr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Munter78 wrote:<div>Ok, stopped reading the rest of the posts, had to stop at this one. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div><strong>A defiler can also "cannibalize: himself for power at a cost of hp, at pretty much an even cost.  This is basically a pretty good version of power regen, hence most defilers</strong></div><div><strong>thinking they are efficient. </strong></div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>         Umm... NO. We cannibalize the mobs for power, making us very efficient.  We also get a self regen that is in the area of 90hp every 4 seconds.</p><p> </p><p>Drummy</p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DrumDrum wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Homjak wrote:if the main problem that mystic cant be in MT group if raid have defiler - then yes, mystics are weaker than defilers.if just to compare healing power between mystic and defiler - the difference isn't so big. defilers have better debuffs, mystics have better heals.but MT group dies more often than others so defilers pays more repair bills <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Actually if you had to find a catagory one or the other wins in I'd reverse this.  <strong>Defilers have ONE slow debuff and it's a reverse proc that doesn't slow as much as mystic slows, we have 2 of them as well as 2 dps debuffs and all 4 stack.  They also have a stat debuff that works on a flat percentage of the mobs max, making it MUCH MUCH weaker if anyone else has used a debuff on the mob,</strong> mystics debuffs are flat numbers, as effective on the pull as they are 2 minutes into the fight.  However defilers have much larger direct heals with much less mana used to cast them and their self buff form more than makes up for their HP costs if they upgrade it.  Also their ward pet blocks a TON more damage than our heal pet can put back so yeah they heal quite a bit better than us actually, just our other tools balance it out.<hr></blockquote><p>Actually, you are very wrong here.  We have 2 direct slow debuffs, and also a triggered slow as well.  Yes all stack.  And you are wrong with how the stat works... it works off of the original stats, not debuffed ones.  That is why if you chain the debuff you don't see multiple stamina heals (where it looks like the health goes down, but it doesn't, it is just recalculating). </p><p> </p><p>Drummy</p><p>60 defiler on guk</p><hr></blockquote><p>If you had read a lil further down the thread before repying you would see I'd already been corrected, yes I did miss one of the slows defilers have as it's a dot, missed the secondary effect on it browsing the list. </p><p>Didn't realize the stat went of only the original stats, that does make it quite a bit more useful, and all this brings me round again to the question...</p><p>What does a mystic do better exactly?</p><p>Even when NOT in the MT grp you have better debuffing power than we do, put you in grp with the MT and tendrils makes a HUGE difference on that.  We do get one encounter slow so we can land the slow in one cast on the whole grp, so I guess that one point we win.   Your heals are MUCH larger with same power cost just added hp costs, but your self form buff gives enough incombat regen that other than solo situations the hp cost will never be an issue.  You buff raw hp tons more than mystics though don't buff stamina as much, close on the full grp just we have a single target buff we can put on one person to edge that out, but again that's stamina which is easily capped.  Your limited pet does a LOT more for damage recovery than ours, that ward is amazing.</p><p>Honestly until this discussion I thought you had the edge on healing, and we did on debuffs, but I have been corrected multiple times.  You trounce us in both areas quite considerably.  I know my place in the MT grp is secure as I'm nearly full mastered with almost full t6 fabled gear now and our highest defiler isn't even full legendary/adept 3 yet and only lvl 57, BUT it's mighty depressing to think that if he actually tried to gear up and show for more raids he would offer more in pretty much any group than I can if played equally well.</p>

[Docimodo]

<div></div><div></div>Out of group Mystics trounce the Defiler and in group well we have the edge but not by much and dear lord have you seen the mystics 65 spell compared to ours? We are pretty much gimped when someone in our group is not tanking a creature and after KOS tat will be rare unless every encounter has very powerful adds.<p>Message Edited by Docimodo on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:13 AM</span></p>

[jzakhar]

<div></div>Hey Pas, Limneia and I both have the same spells as above, I am missing a few trival master 1 spells, but all of my important ones are master 1 or 2 or on the dots adept 3. Beezzer is pretty close as well, and at this point I dont know that i've seen another defiler on raids accept us. So, yeah, sorry to break the bad news to youJallacea (Exiles of the Sun)<div></div><p>Message Edited by jzakhar on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 PM</span></p>

[Jadewolf]

<div>   I think when it really comes down to comparing defilers and mystics you have to remember the important things a MT needs.  With caps, you have to keep in mind that stamina is likely not a factor. So as far as raw HP's are concerned, defilers will give a couple hundred more or so hps vs. a mystic. </div><div>  However, what I haven't heard mentioned is agility.  The 3 most important stats for a tank are Hp's, mitigation, and avoidance.  Avatar currently adds a decent amount of agility which adds to avoidance on the MT.  Now, if your MT is maxed on avoidance w/o Avatar, a defiler wins hands down.  However if the tank is not maxed on avoidance you have to look at whats more effective:  a couple hundred or so hps or more avoidance?  This is just a judgement call.  </div><div>   After that you can bicker about in group procs and wards.  As far as I understand it you can have 4 classes slowing a mob but you will never get attack speed currently slower than 25%, and a mystic has a dps decreaser at 29%.  I know both a defiler and mystic can have the slow's on at the same time, however they do not "stack" in the sense that they are additive.  So if you have a couple shaman on your raid there is no reason slowing would ever be a factor MT group or not. </div><div>   </div><div> </div><div>  In the end, I think defilers and mystics are pretty equal in terms of overall raid effectiveness and success on any given raid wouldn't depend on a which shaman you have in your MT group.  Either works extremely well.  I think the important part is just knowing your class well and using everything in your power to help your raid succeed. </div><div> </div><div>Jezzebelle  60 Mystic  Najena</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[NimSul]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jadewolf wrote:<div>   I think when it really comes down to comparing defilers and mystics you have to remember the important things a MT needs.  With caps, you have to keep in mind that stamina is likely not a factor. So as far as raw HP's are concerned, defilers will give a couple hundred more or so hps vs. a mystic. </div><div>  However, what I haven't heard mentioned is agility.  The 3 most important stats for a tank are Hp's, mitigation, and avoidance.  Avatar currently adds a decent amount of agility which adds to avoidance on the MT.  Now, if your MT is maxed on avoidance w/o Avatar, a defiler wins hands down.  However if the tank is not maxed on avoidance you have to look at whats more effective:  a couple hundred or so hps or more avoidance?  This is just a judgement call.  </div><div>   After that you can bicker about in group procs and wards.  As far as I understand it you can have 4 classes slowing a mob but you will never get attack speed currently slower than 25%, and a mystic has a dps decreaser at 29%.  I know both a defiler and mystic can have the slow's on at the same time, however they do not "stack" in the sense that they are additive.  So if you have a couple shaman on your raid there is no reason slowing would ever be a factor MT group or not. </div><div>   </div><div> </div><div>  In the end, I think defilers and mystics are pretty equal in terms of overall raid effectiveness and success on any given raid wouldn't depend on a which shaman you have in your MT group.  Either works extremely well.  I think the important part is just knowing your class well and using everything in your power to help your raid succeed. </div><div> </div><div>Jezzebelle  60 Mystic  Najena</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>execpt for the fact that slow cap is higher than 25%, but still easy to reach in a raid, and all slows stack up to the cap. This post discribes pretty good how mystics and defilers stack up to eachother in DoF. Now when you count in "Bolster" in KoS there comes out a whole other picture.