lvl 35 Umbral Trap and 39 Morning Soul

[casac]

<DIV>Both do have the same effect but Morning Soul is a bit stronger. Do they stack? How can I check whether they stack? And if they dont stack what is the sense to keep both of them available?</DIV>

[Banditman]

Don't waste your time on Umbral Trap unless you are a raider.

[Nacire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Don't waste your time on Umbral Trap unless you are a raider.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Interesting.  I *am* a raider in a slightly more than casual raid guild, and I gave up on Umbral Trap with LU 13.  Just wondering why you say "unless you are a raider", does it somewhat stack?

[Eepop]

I occasionally use it to cast on a secondary target, Soul on the main target. Trap on an off target. The recast on soul is low enough to keep it on a few mobs, i just think of trap as letting me keep it up on one more. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Same here, just another quick cast on an off target.

[Flor]

<div></div>I did a lil test myself and OMG guess what? Both debuffs stack....GASP....Can you belive it????Here is the test, everyone can do it. Lets see, what DPS debuff means anyway? Reduces the default damage on your weapon. So here is what i did.I dueled my other character, a beserker. I used a 1h weapon on him, Sandstorm. Default damage, 229.Used adept 3 Grieving Soul. Default damage, 162.Used Umbral trap. Default damage, 133.So you see, the debuffs DO STACK.<p>Message Edited by Florin on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[Banditman]

You need to test against other classes as well.  Umbral Trap, and for the most part debuffs in general, are pretty useless over the course of normal EXP / Heroic encounter groups.  The encounters simply die far too quickly for them to matter.The only time debuffs are important is in a raiding situation, and for that you need to ascertain as to whether the debuffs stack with all other classes, not just within yourself.

[KindredHeart]

<DIV>Yes MS and UT stack.  How you choose to use that knowledge is up to you and depends on the situation.  But you are correct, they do stack.</DIV>

[Mystiq]

I just recently "rediscovered" UT and upgraded it to adept 3. With that plus Grieving Soul master 1, that's me hitting the cap on DPS debuffs all by myself, but I'm not the only one debuffing DPS on raids. UT, as others have said, is good for an add or even to land if Soul won't land immediately. It's not something I use often.

[Banditman]

I didn't realize there was a cap on DPS debuffs.  I suppose I should have assumed one existed.  Can you share the number with us?

[Mystiq]

It's 50% as far as I know. I could be wrong, but don't tell my husband that.

[Thatdumbg]

Interesting.How and where did you come across this information if I might ask?<div></div>

[Banditman]

I assume (and you know how that goes) that this cap (and debuff) is applied only against auto-attack damage?

[Mystiq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>I assume (and you know how that goes) that this cap (and debuff) is applied only against auto-attack damage?<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The Haze line only effects auto attack damage to be sure. But DPS debuffs very definately seem to lower overall damage - all damage- coming from a raid mob. At least my husband, being our guild's MT, feels this way. Perhaps it takes each hit that shows up as red damage in your chat window....autoattack, spells and CA's...and reduces the damage of each hit by the % that it is debuffed. Sounds too good and too sensible to be true, to me, but it's possible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attack speed slows and DPS debuffs have different descriptions and do not share the same spell lines, therefore they must work differently. If they don't, and both only ever effect auto attack damage, well that's something to make some noise about, and get an explanation for. I'll try to maybe do a couple tests to get a more definitive answer. Banditman if u have any suggestions on the testing scenario (I've no mind for these kinds of things) please let me know here or in the mystic channel.</DIV>

[Banditman]

If I were going to test this I'd run it like this:Develop a baseline stance.  No Runic Talisman, no Wards.  Just heals and incoming damage.  Wards aren't dealt with well by most parsing programs, so leave them out of your aresenal for this test.First, baseline raw DPS.  Just sit and take whatever the mob dishes out.  Blues are probably what you'll get, I'm hard pressed to come up with a white solo con mob at L60.  Anyway, take as much as you can, preferably 4 to 5 minutes.  Break the encounter so the mob doesn't die.Second, baseline autoattack DPS.  Let the mob burn all his power, or drain it if you have a friend who can do so.    You'll have to doctor this one a bit, since they added the ability for mobs to regen power.  (/rude).  Anyway, while the mob has power use Wards, whatever else it takes to stay alive.  Once the mob is out of power, you start your log.  Again, try to get 4 to 5 minutes.  The few CA's that will happen will need to be edited out.  Break the encounter, let the mob live.Third, debuffed raw DPS.  Pull with Mourning / Grieving Soul.  Keep that up on the mob at all times, but take the damage and heal it, don't Ward it.  Again, 4 to 5 minutes of this, break the encounter.Fourth, debuffed autoattack DPS.  As above, get the mob out of power then start the log.  Four to five minutes of the mob autoattacking, being sure to keep the debuff on the mob the whole time.With those four logs, you can make an accurate determination as to whether or not DPS debuffs affect CA's or not.  The only thing I can't figure out how to test is something like a raid mob's AE or an inate ability (which are usually AE's).  If Soul works against a raid mob's AE, all I can think to say is "Wow."

[Thatdumbg]

DPS Debuffs only affect auto-attack damage.If you doubt me, take a look at the coercer's and bruiser's group DPS buffs, reading the description/prose and actual effect listing.No need to test.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Thatdumbguy wrote:DPS Debuffs only affect auto-attack damage.If you doubt me, take a look at the coercer's and bruiser's group DPS buffs, reading the description/prose and actual effect listing.No need to test.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>First point, since when has a description on a spell ever been accurate??</p><p>Second, you are comparing apples to oranges, you look at dps BUFFS and assume they do exactly the same as a dps DEBUFF?  Two totally different things that only share the word DPS in common could and most likely do perform totally different.</p><p>Not saying this can't be the way it is just that your reason for assuming so makes no sense.</p>

[Mystiq]

<div></div><p>Till I get around to testing it (and IMO yes, there still is a great need to test) I'm not convinced either way. It would make sense to me that DPS buffs and debuffs would act similar but opposite, but what makes sense to me rarely ends up in practise in this game.</p><p>As for the descriptions of the above mentioned coercer and bruiser buffs, one just says something like, "increases target's DPS by X%", while the other says, "increases the non combat-art DPS of the target by X%". Both are dps buffs yet both are worded differently. Not very reliable to base a counter argument off of if you ask me. Do they work the same, or don't they? When will the spell/CA descriptions ever get straightened out? It's anybody's guess...</p><p>Only thing I'm sure of is my husband insists he sees the incoming damage he's soaking up from various raid mobs literally halved when DPS debuffed. Other debuffs likely have a hand in this also so I can't claim Grieving Soul is solely responsible. If a mob's "DPS" is still largely from spells/CA's, while a lower % comes from auto-attack, it's logical that when DPS debuffed, for such a drastic reduction in damage as asserted by Noah, it would seem that the debuff is working against ALL damage the mob is doing.</p><p>And besides, how can you say you're debuffing 34% of a mob's DPS (on the majority of the debuffs which don't specify a type of damage it affects) if you're not taking into account every bit of damage? That's 34 out of 100, not 34 out of 60 or whatever. Again....maybe it makes too much sense and i'm overestimating the minds behind the spells here.</p>

[Flor]

Hehe, you guys need to stop doing the tests on mobs..not really accurate.Im doing my tests in duels...here is what i found from my new test.DPS only debuffs default attack, not CA.When you duel is easy to tell, since you can inspect the skills and see what the debuffs does.For example, to make sure im accurate , i used a STR debuff first, to see if indeed my CA can get affected by debuffs.So i debuffed with Chimerik...and yes, when i inspected the CA the damage shown on the spell went down once i was debuffed.No effect on the CA when i debuffed DPS, only thing that went down was the damge ratting on my weapons.Also, i used a spell with a small difference between min and max, used it like 40 times without debuff, 40 times with the DPS debuff..i didnt notice any diference. 50% dps if it would affect the CA would be noticeble, wouldnt you agree?So i think it is safe to say DPS debuff only affects auto atack.P.S. When tanking for a raid, your husband SHOULD notice a difference on the mobs he is fighting because im guessing not only the DPS the mob is debuffed, but also STR which affects CA.

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div>Stirring Cry (Bruiser Group DPS Buff)Prose: Increases the non-combat art attack damage of the bruiser's group.Effect Listing: Increases Damage Per Second of group members (AE) by 21% (Master)Velocity (Coercer Single Target DPS Buff)Prose: Increases the combat attack damage of target ally.Effect Listing: Increases Damage Per Second of target by 65% (Master)Combat Arts are NOT combat attack damage, they have their own classification.Inconsistent wording between the two lines, however, they say the same thing to me.If a buff only affects "combat attack damage" (auto-attack), then a debuff will not affect combat arts. It makes zero sense and has zero consistency, both from a design standpoint and a programming standpoint.Quite honestly, if the amount of DPS reduction that is possible affected combat art damage, most of the current raid content would be trivial, or it would have to be designed with a specific class or ability in mind. The developers try to avoid both.EDIT: Punctuation<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class="date_text">01-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:08 AM</span></p>