Torpor and MT Group?

[mystt]

<DIV>We had a discussion on Torpor being used by the Mystic when they are in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize that if there is movement and knockback....Torpor is not a good thing.  But if there is no movement,  torpor I think should be used from a Mystics perspective.  Now all that being said,  each tank class is different in how they build hate.  Guardians,  taunt is not relying on hits, but more like gestures,  Paladins cast spells to steal agro from group members, but Zerkers, hit to build agro i think. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is,  if you have a Zerker MT and use Torpor how much does that affect his hate and him holding agro if the Mystic uses Torpor in his healing rotation? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe that it is a very small %, but I had a discussion about it with another Mystic in my guild saying that it is a "dumb" thing to use.  My retort was,  if I cannot use Torpor,  that would be like telling a Templar not to use Reactives.  Someone help me straighten this out.  If I am out of line...someone explain it, because I simply do not think it makes enough of a difference to not use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystt</DIV>

[Eepop]

Well it would be more like telling a Templar not to use Reverence. I acknowldege the power of Torpor, but that power comes at a cost.  In some situations it may be negligable, but thats up to the individual group to decide. I personally do not use it as my main heal.  If I can heal fine without it, I do.  Theres no reason to bear a penalty upon the group when you dont need to.  If the situation gets bad, I will surely throw it in, but I mostly keep it for when a mage gets aggro. <div></div>

[aprilstor]

<DIV>Are you talking raids, or just grouping?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive only had raids so far with paladins and guardians being MT so it hasn't been a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have, however, been solo healer for LOTS of bezerkers (our guild seems to have many of them). I always explain to them clearly they will be slowed and need to do other things to build aggro. It usually takes a few trials but eventually they get it. Most of them love it after a few trials. They really like not seeing any damage seep in. As a matter of fact, I have become most of the zerkers I know, favorite healer type. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just let them know it does have its problems but it's really worth it. </DIV>

[mystt]

<P>This is a total Raid situation.  If your guild does not know the benefits of different types of MT's then you are missing out.  Each Tank class can buff certain resists...you should know them when planning the raiding.  Trust me, you will need them on the higher end.</P> <P>On the main topic, this is if you are in the MT group and doing heals exclusively.  I do know that using Learned Healing is good and if the mana is good--then great.  However,  I like to have a small amount of mana (aka power) for the "Uncertain factor".  Myself, I try to find the most efficent way to heal I can, use it, and judge the results.  There are a few tricks that my guild uses, simply because we try new things.</P> <P>The torpor issue is something that I believe is a huge benefit--simply put the issue here is "generating hate" on the MT.  Does torpor effect hate generation to the degree to not use it?  Anyone?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Eepop]

It is only autoattack speed, so the amount of DPS lost is probably pretty minimal. It shouldnt have a big effect unless the tank is 1) heavily relying on thier DPS to hold aggro (brawler) 2) Relying on procs for hate gain (lazy members of the warrior class might try this) But it also has the bonus that less attacks = less ripostes on the MT.  I would definitely reccommend using it as long as the MT is skilled enough to recognize what he has to do to keep aggro.  The main issue is notifying him that you will be slowing his attack speed, so that he can not rely on that for aggro. In the end, the ammount of aggro loss is a fraction of what they are getting from taunts.  <div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div>My usual casting order in the MT group (the second non-MT group mystic usually runs the debuffs)...Single WardTorporManastone(ward is usually gone at this point)Single WardGroup Ward (or direct heal if tank isn't sitting around full)Even if I'm the only mystic and I'm debuffing, it is usually: Scream of the Ancients, Chimerik, Torpor (then wards/debuffs til I get them all on).Anyhow, my point is, torpor is my mainstay spell in raids.My reasoning...Once the first single target ward goes down, Torpor's ward will be eaten first. Since it was cast first, as it regens the ward component, it will also be eaten first.In situations where the regen component is actually being used, Torpor as master 1 heals and wards for a grand total of:595+198*(ward regen for 7 ticks)+179-218(for 8 ticks), which equals 595+1386+1432to1744= 3413 to 3725*-might be 196 I can't remember right offhandEven if I am remembering incorrectly and the regen is only 7 ticks, you have 3234 to 3507.In short, this spell is a powerhouse and should be used whenever possible.Two mystics in a raid should coordinate its casting. If you do that, you can pretty much have it up on a tank at all times.EDIT: Spelling.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[mystt]

<div></div><div></div><p>Ulfgar,  You do see my point and I am glad someone can verify exactly what I have been saying. THANK YOU!</p><p>The other point that eepop used was VERY VALID.  The Torpor slow does not  effect SPECIAL ATTACK,  only auto attack!   That is the key.</p><p> </p><div></div><p>Message Edited by mystt on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by mystt on <span class="date_text">01-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:14 AM</span></p>

[trin ka]

So Topor master 1 heals for over 3000 k? Hmmm....

[Thatdumbg]

Ideally, yes, although it does it over 14 seconds.However, if the target is sitting at 100 percent life, you lose out on the regen of 179-218 for 7 ticks, and if there is another ward placed on the target beforehand, you lose out on the ward regen of 196 per tick until that ward has gone down.The ward regen component cannot exceed the original ward amount of 595.<div></div>

[Purcupile]

<P>What level is the Torpor that you are referring to?  I was under the impression that there is Master I Torpor, is that no longer the case?  I thought the highest you could get that spell is Adept3.</P> <P> </P> <P>Purcupile</P>

[Thatdumbg]

I have the spell at Master 1.<div></div>

[dennis]

WAUW.I just learned something new here. I've rarely used Torpor, but it sounds like I should use it everytime we raid now.Thanks a lot for the good info <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Nahlis]

<DIV>Never heard of Torpor before (Mystic is only lvl 45).  From what I could glean from the discussion it doesn't sound like another name for a lower level spell so... what is it and when do we get it?  Thanks!</DIV>

[Eepop]

Level 52 ancient spell. Only comes as dropped adept 1, or crafted adept 3. Has a HoT and a regenerating ward...but it snares and slows the target by 50%. <div></div>

[vicario]

I keep torpor open as a last resort.  If the tank is in the red I will use it if my heals and wards are down. 

[Banditman]

I don't understand that.  Torpor isn't really a very good "Oh (*&@" tool.  It's not a large heal or Ward.Torpor is best used early and often to supplement healing.  It's not really a very good heal in and of itself.  Used early, that tank probably never gets into the red.

[mystt]

<DIV>Bandit,  Torpor does more than does heal,  if your tank is full health and you have your ward on him it will replenish the ward (for the life of the ward)--your standard heal will not.  I dont think anywhere in this post, someone said Torpor is the only spell used on the tanks.  Frankly, it should not be.  Torpor is one of the heals that I use as a healing strategy--by no means is that the only spell I use in my rotation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do believe Torpor is a good tool.  I believe if you do not utilize it, you are not achieving your maximum potential as a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The original post was a question I asked regarding the validity of another mystics argument to NEVER use torpor,  I believe with all the research and the posts, no one believes that should be the case.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally,  I try to think "outside the box" and find the best solution.  Whether or not Torpor is used, or Wards, or Direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystt</DIV>

[Banditman]

I was one of the first to explain that it Warded and Healed.  Believe me, I am completely cognizant of the exact effects that Torpor offers.Please read my post.I was simply saying that a tank in the red is looking for something more significant than a 200 HP heal and a 500 HP Ward.  I went on to say that had Torpor been used at some point BEFORE the tank goes red, in all likelihood the tank would never go red in the first place.I cannot understand holding Torpor in reserve against an emergency.  It simply doesn't fit the bill.  It's a great heal, but it's not much good in the red.

[Eepop]

While I recognize the strengths of Torpor, its also important to recognize its weaknesses. As Banditman said, it doesnt help much if the tank is in the red. But its also important to remember that it does have disadvantages bundled with it. Its very important to learn when to cast Torpor. Either extreme is folly. Casting it non stop and keeping the tank full at all times is a waste.  The debuff on the tank is just slowing you down, and a normal ward or two would probably have kept the tank alive fine. Letting the tank get into the red before casting it for fear of the debuff is just as bad, as it needs time to work. I usually use conventional methods (ward, direct heals, badger) until the tank gets into the orange.  At that point its obvious I am not keeping up with the damage, so I apply Torpor until I can get a handle on things again.  This also leaves Torpor open for most of the time to allow for its use in loose aggro situations.  Torpor saves Mages, and it has almost no effect on thier abilities. As with all things, Moderation is the key. <div></div>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div><div></div>    In a group setting, I just about do the same exact thing as Eepop. In raids is where I start to use it all the time. Of course, if there is a better spell to best cast, I will use it. But on a tough fight, I think it should be up on the MT at all times (of course this requires 2 mystics in a raid).<div></div><p>EDIT: I think one of the posters is confused, and thought when I said it should be kept up at all times, I was speaking of groups. If you read the conversation, it was leaning towards raids, and in fact, the original poster was speaking about its raid usage.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[mystt]

<DIV>Reading these posts, I believe that we are discussing the same points and agree that Torpor has its place.  Using Torpor while a tank is in the "red" seems like an issue, and as stated many times,  direct  heals are used for that very situation.  I don't think anyone will disagree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I a glad we all agree on Torpor.</DIV>

[KolchakV]

On raids, you should definitely coast on Torpor and your Pet as much as possible. It's your most mana-effecient way of healing. Hit your manastone as much as you can and keep those two spells up. If your MT's hp dips considerably, throw a direct heal.

[phantomho]

<div></div><p>hmm so since i was the other mystic mystt is talking about and got pointed to this thread.</p><p>you need to consider that zerkers agro on raids has alot to do with there damage you like to chain cast it on him his agro drops your casters die,</p><p>same with monks who proc hate so you slow there melee you lower there agro and lose casters,</p><p>yes torpor is usefull but it is very dangerouse when you over use it on the wrong spots.</p><p>at the same time your tank has trouble holding agro on the raid your dps has to slow which draws the fights out and makes it so your healers run out of power,</p><p>while you are arguing ask our friendly monk the example i gave him on how i could kill his dps and agro with that spell from around 400 dps to 250 :p</p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>phantomhood wrote:<div></div><p>hmm so since i was the other mystic mystt is talking about and got pointed to this thread.</p><p>you need to consider that zerkers agro on raids has alot to do with there damage you like to chain cast it on him his agro drops your casters die,</p><p>same with monks who proc hate so you slow there melee you lower there agro and lose casters,</p><p>yes torpor is usefull but it is very dangerouse when you over use it on the wrong spots.</p><p>at the same time your tank has trouble holding agro on the raid your dps has to slow which draws the fights out and makes it so your healers run out of power,</p><p>while you are arguing ask our friendly monk the example i gave him on how i could kill his dps and agro with that spell from around 400 dps to 250 :p</p><hr></blockquote>Just had to chime in here as I play a raiding mystic and have a monk alt I almost exclusively tank with.  If you are dropping a monk's dps from 400 to 250 it's not from the slow effect of torpor, it's from the "oh boy I just saw torpor land so I can slack off and blame it" effect...  In a WORST case scenario around 40% overall (in a long fight where they get multiple rounds of the long refresh CAs) dps is from autoattack.  So looking at the 400 dps figure you gave that's still only 320 dps yer dropping him to.  Yes if healing a monk tank you want to let there be some damage BEFORE you use torpor as it does somewhat affect it, but the effect is beyond negligable.  I have never lost agro due to torpor, and neither will any monk who's not afk grabbin a drink and just letting autoattack do his work.

[phantomho]

<div>you are figuring in the procs they would land also right ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>the less they swing the less they proc</div><div> </div><div>40% is alot when you are walking a tight rope on how much dps you can land versus the tank losing agro and breaking the bubble.</div><div> </div><div>now i will agree it makes little to no diffrence with a pali as they use agro stealing procs, but on classes that realy on procs and damage for agro i don't.</div><div> </div><div>a guardian not much of a diffrence,</div><div> </div><div>zerkers and monks where you are trying to get as much dps and hold agro as you can it is dangerouse.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>phantomhood wrote:<div>you are figuring in the procs they would land also right ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>the less they swing the less they proc</div><div> </div><div>40% is alot when you are walking a tight rope on how much dps you can land versus the tank losing agro and breaking the bubble.</div><div> </div><div>now i will agree it makes little to no diffrence with a pali as they use agro stealing procs, but on classes that realy on procs and damage for agro i don't.</div><div> </div><div>a guardian not much of a diffrence,</div><div> </div><div>zerkers and monks where you are trying to get as much dps and hold agro as you can it is dangerouse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Yes the less they swing the less they proc but again most of their swings will be CA's and totally uneffected, and any monk that EVER loses agro on a single target (barring when another tank in grp burns rescue to mess with us...) needs to be fired.  Our agro buff is a 50% chance to proc, long as they're using high delay weapons as they should be anyway we're looking at 75% or higher real chance to proc per swing and each proc is about half the hate generated by average fighter single tuants, only we land them almost every swing.  NOBODY locks a single target down like a monk, I've often challened wizzies and warlocks to try and steal agro off me (on condition they give me 5 seconds after pull to build agro) and have NEVER lost the challenge. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Whether the mystic in grp was using torpor or not never came into consideration, it's only REAL drawback is the 50% snare, slows down my next pull. ;P

[mystt]

<div></div><p>Effective DPS is not the issue.  It is Hate.  PH, while you may think you are the one I was talking about...you are wrong.  If you remember the fight exactly...The Zerker was the tank and the zerker might have lost agro once, and I highly doubt it was due to Torpor.  Overall,  this is not the forum to agrue over strats.</p><p>As stated earlier, the only tank that I think Torpor can be an issue on is the brawler/monk class,  but AGAIN, the biggest part of your HATE is done with Combat Casting and/or Combat Arts.  Using Auto-attack is not a good way to judge Hate generation nor the ability to hold agro over an encounter.</p><p> </p>

[phantomho]

<div></div><p>wizards and warlocks can't steal agro if they try ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>hmm i think i could put together a dps group that could <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>what type of gear do you have what type of mobs are you raiding ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[phantomho]

<div></div><p>either way you have been asked by the officers in your guild not to and you come here to argue it so figured i would answer as to why we don't want it used :p</p><p>dps is part of agro it adds up all part of breaking the bubble the more the tank has the more the dps classes can do before that bubble breaks.</p><p> </p>

[mystt]

<div></div>I am no longer going to address this topic here.

[Banditman]

It is not a fact that swinging less yields fewer procs.  It is the worst sort of misinformation.In fact, the LESS often you swing, the MORE often you proc.  This is why you will see something like a bow with a slow "swing" rate proc nearly every time it is fired.Basically, procs are normalized over time in such a way that if you have two weapons with a proc rate of 5%, you'd see the exact same number of procs over time from each - even though one may have a delay of 1.4 and the other a delay of 1.9.Further, changes recently removed the procs from off hand weapons, but increased them for main hand when dual wielding.  The effect looks like a wash.Nevertheless, Torpor's impact on proc rate is negligible at most, and as stated above, only affects the auto attack swings.  Most damage is coming from CA's, which are the sole responsibility of the player at the keyboard.

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>phantomhood wrote:<div></div><p>wizards and warlocks can't steal agro if they try ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>hmm i think i could put together a dps group that could <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>what type of gear do you have what type of mobs are you raiding ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>As for gear he's in mostly t6 rares with a Royal Great Flail for wep and a couple odd fables here and there I've found on brokers, he's an alt, I raid with my mystic.  Granted on him I've only really tanked x2 epics and xp mobs, was just making the point that on a single target regardless of the minor slow from torpor even if it COULD be applied 100% of the fight I will still generate more agro than any other class can without a rescue thrown in the mix from procs and self haste.  Groups are tricky if others are using aoe or not assisting, but a single mob is glued to the brawler in seconds, and I mean GLUED.  Granted this is a char with 100% adept 3 or better, and nearly self capped on strength, but if it's this easy for me, it can't be THAT hard for others.

[Nacire]

<div></div>Oh and one other point I wanna bring up.  It sounded like one of the above posters was one of ones requesting torpor not be used.  I'd strongly suggest you try a few things and parse the results.  Yes that zerker in question would need to use his dps as SOME of his hate generating ability, but his autoattack damage to the mob in front of him not only is a tiny fraction of that, but it's also the fraction you'd do well to eliminate as it's what's generating more damage to the tank.  In many raids more damage comes from riposte than all other attacks combined once you have proper resists on the tank.  Torpor not only is an awesome heal but lessens this damage quite a bit as well.  Try asking the tank to toggle autoattack OFF between each CA and parse the fights done that way, you'll notice a lot less spikes and MUCH less overall damage.  Unless your raiding greens that is, even then it will be a measurable difference.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:It is not a fact that swinging less yields fewer procs.  It is the worst sort of misinformation.In fact, the LESS often you swing, the MORE often you proc.  This is why you will see something like a bow with a slow "swing" rate proc nearly every time it is fired.Basically, procs are normalized over time in such a way that if you have two weapons with a proc rate of 5%, you'd see the exact same number of procs over time from each - even though one may have a delay of 1.4 and the other a delay of 1.9.Further, changes recently removed the procs from off hand weapons, but increased them for main hand when dual wielding.  The effect looks like a wash.Nevertheless, Torpor's impact on proc rate is negligible at most, and as stated above, only affects the auto attack swings.  Most damage is coming from CA's, which are the sole responsibility of the player at the keyboard.<hr></blockquote>Not true. Procs are normalized to weapon delay, attack speed buffs/debuffs do not affect the % that procs go off. If a weapon has a 3.0 delay, and a 5% chance to proc, it will go off once every minute. If you get that person with 100% Attack Speed, they will still have a 3.0 delay weapon, however they will be swinging it every 1.5s, which will still have the 5% chance to proc. Which means instead of once a minute, it will go off once every 30 seconds. Attack Speed does not change proc rates, since the only thing that matters is delay on the weapon.Also most damage for monks come from auto-attack, not their CAs.

[paisan]

<div></div><p>Thats what bandit said actually and what i have always deemed the truth on the proc.</p><p>Sounds to me like the berzerker is looking for a scapegoat for when he loses agro... but thats just me.</p><p>The only thing that torpor affects as far as agro on a tank that even adds up is the "When tank hits target XX% to add XX threat." Mainly only monks get a good chunk of their agro this way. It still is MUCH more worthwhile to use the spell and have an alive tank than to not and have a dead tank.</p><p> I would think twice about my association with anyone who forcefully tells me how to play my character. Especially if they track down a legitimate discussion about the topic you are engaging in and make you uncomfortable enough to leave it.</p>

[phantomho]

<div></div><p>and i didn't track him down here.</p><p>i was sent the link and replied.</p><p>i don't normally bother with the mystic boards unless someone sends me a link for a interesting thread.</p><p>as for his leaving that is up to him i didn't make him leave he desided too.</p><p>he is a grown man he can deside where he wants to post or when he stops and i have known him for years so more than knew my thinking long ago.</p><p>but what ever i am out of here nice talking to you and good luck,</p><p>got something to say feel free to pm me or not  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[trin ka]

<div></div>Not.

[Banditman]

I have used Torpor on every single type of Tank in the game and not had any problems with aggro.Fortunately this entire discussion is likely to evaporate next month.  I strongly suspect Quiescence to be a L65 Ancient spell in KoS.

[Purcupile]

<div></div><p>It seems to me that Mystt came to the forums for information and understanding about the benefits and proper use of the Torpor spell.  It also seems to me that you came here (to this forum, which you admittedly rarely do) to harange him for going to the source of accurate information regarding that spell.  You did not address any information that was pertinent to Mystt's queries only succeeded in making yourself look like a lurking flamer following a particular personality around to try to embarass him.  You failed miserably at that attempt, however you did seem to be rather successful at embarassing yourself...whether you know it or not.  But obviously you don't care if you embarass yourself or not...judging by your poor spelling and incoherent ramblings.</p><p> </p><p>Purcupile</p>