Tested Agro issue... my findings within

[Tuetatesu]

<DIV>Here is what I have tested and my results as a 33rd level Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried many combos.  Different buff combos, no buffs, just ward, one buff at a time, and appling ward before battle in each test.  Also tried in group, having a member walk by an agro MOB vs Hit an agro MOB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Results are simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Runic Shield is on, which has a procing ward built in that has a chance turn on when hit, I get agro when the ward proc goes off on the group member.  If the group member is not able to get numerous hits in before the ward proc goes off it will peal off on me which is just about every time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here is the kicker.  It seems that the Proc built-in to Runic Sheild causes more agro then just casting group ward before battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IF, my group member walk by an agro MOB and the ward procs the MOB comes right after me and it takes up to 3 times damage or taunt to pull it off me then a regular ward.  If I have no buffs and cast a regular group ward and run the same test it only takes one taunt or one hit to pull the MOB off me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I can conclude that the Procing ward on group buffs such as Runic Shield causes too much agro.  It does not make any sence for a simple 42 HP ward to have more agro then a regular 500+ HP protection ward.  I think it's the proc!  I remember in EQ1 people would buy procing weapons just to keep agro.  I can assume procs have agro gain in EQ2 as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, casting group ward before combat was not a problem before this procing ward buff, because it only took one hit or taunt and the Mystic would not get any agro. In the case where you have a puller it's no agro at all cause the puller does damage to pull it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I think something needs to be adjusted.  A simple 42 HP proc ward should NOT cause three times more agro then casting a normal group ward before a battle. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is very bad when you have large groups of MOB's because what happens is ALL of the MOB's will all go straight for the Mystic after they hit everyone AND it takes 3 times the effort to peal them off and by that time the Mystic is in a frenzy of healing and warding themself to stay alive or die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now it seems fairly situational when you get a large uncontrolable group, so after getting agro from the Procing ward I tried using Quelling Spirits to reduce the agro.  This helped reduce the agro only to the point where it reacted just like a standard group ward was placed.  One hit or taunt after casting Quelling Spirits  and they were off me.  However I still feel the group buff with a 42 HP ward proc should not build up to 3 times the hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For now I suggest that if you get agro from this have a spell like Quelling Spirits  to reduce the agro ready and use it fast, then hope your tank can get in there fast to AE taunt or attack.  It should help quickly pull them off you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this info helps the Devs and others.  Please look at the 42 HP proc ward.  It just seems to add too much hate for only 42 HP and it seems to be because it's not only a ward, but it's procing too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also want to add that it seems worse when you have other buffs on, I think this is because when you add group buffs that raise stats like STR, STA or otherwise it raises the chance for the proc the ward to go off even more often, therefore causing the Mystic to get hate much faster and more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 PM</span>

[catthedd]

<DIV>Wow, interesting!  I wondered what the deal was with the mobs coming right at me when I'd done (seemingly) nothing.  </DIV> <DIV>May just go without that buff for now....</DIV>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> catthedd wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow, interesting!  I wondered what the deal was with the mobs coming right at me when I'd done (seemingly) nothing.  </DIV> <DIV>May just go without that buff for now....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, In my test... if I did not use a buff that had a procing ward component I never got agro doing nothing.  But it's a nice buff that has other parts to it... so if you do use it make sure you have the Hate Reducing spell ready at all times.  Then when you get a big hard group of MOBs hit your Hate Reducer very fast and hope your group can peal the MOB's off you while your healing and warding yourself. </P> <P>Only bummer is that Hate Reducing spell is a 5 minute reset.</P> <p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:47 PM</span>

[Twisti2]

<div></div>I don't believe the ward is a proc, rather it regenerates every few seconds.  So for example, if i get hit, it will ward 42 points of damage, then if i get hit again before the ward has regenerated I will take full damage instead. You are correct however, it seems to generate more agro than applying a ward straight after someone has agroed a mob.  Almost like its multiplying the affect by the number of people warded in the group. I do believe it needs to be looked in to.  I like the ward part of Runic Shield, but the agro is too much.  There are times when you get accidental agro and I dont believe Mystics should be punished for this.  If I am the only healer in the group and someone accidentally agroes a ^^^, I will be near death before the tank call pull agro off me.  In addition, I don't believe having to keep myself warded to help alleviate this problem is a solution.   Also, Quelling spirits is on a 15 min timer I believe and therefore not a viable solution to this problem. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Twisti2 on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 PM</span>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twisti2 wrote:<BR> I don't believe the ward is a proc, rather it regenerates every few seconds.  So for example, if i get hit, it will ward 42 points of damage, then if i get hit again before the ward has regenerated I will take full damage instead.<BR><BR>You are correct however, it seems to generate more agro than applying a ward straight after someone has agroed a mob.  Almost like its multiplying the affect by the number of people warded in the group.<BR><BR>I do believe it needs to be looked in to.  I like the ward part of Runic Shield, but the agro is too much.  There are times when you get accidental agro and I dont believe Mystics should be punished for this.  If I am the only healer in the group and someone accidentally agroes a ^^^, I will be near death before the tank call pull agro off me.  In addition, I don't believe having to keep myself warded to help alleviate this problem is a solution.   <BR><BR>Also, Quelling spirits is on a 15 min timer I believe and therefore not a viable solution to this problem.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Twisti2 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It may not be a proc and generate as you say, however I think it still may act like a proc when the ward goes off thus multiplying the agro.  And yeah, I think your right, Quelling Spirits is a 15 min reset.  If the designers intent was for us to use more agro reducers in combat they they need to drop that time to about 1 minute so we can use it 1-2 times in a battle.</P> <P>I agree... warding and healing your self is not right.  I had several instances were I had to do just that and ended up dieing 1st because my group could not get them off me.</P> <P>Thanks for your comments.<BR></P>

[Birn]

<DIV>It's a small ward that regenerates every tick or so. You can see it once you get the spell for the first time (when you ding) because you will see a ward regen spam message every tick until you zone. Seen this with both spirit of the badger and runic shield.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway, it generates alot of aggro so if I'm in a group where I'm unsure the tank knows about the aggro problem I keep it off, shame though it's quite useful now that I have master II on it and all...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Birn on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 PM</span>

[DarknessScyt]

Welcome to one month ago where endless topics about the Runic line has been started and discussed. Devs already decreased the amount of hate it generates and I don't think that it will be decreased furthermore. <div></div>

[thedu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarknessScythe wrote:<BR>Welcome to one month ago where endless topics about the Runic line has been started and discussed.<BR><BR>Devs already decreased the amount of hate it generates and I don't think that it will be decreased furthermore.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, they simply said 'wards', not which ward.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=187" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=187</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>- Wards now generate considerably less hate for the caster.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is still something generating hate inappropriately, whether it's the runic line or not I haven't been able to figure it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CallMeToyMan]

I don't know if your 3x measurement is accurate, but the ward in Runic Talisman does generate aggro, and so there are times you may want to turn it off.  Example include: o When the tank is proximity pulling (aka body pulls) - you could turn it on after the fight starts and off again before the next pull. o When the tank is pulling groups and doesn't have a group taunt - again you could turn it off and on. o When camping a spot that has many wanderers or nearby pops and your group is getting these as adds before the tank can taunt. o When training through a zone in a group.  This can quickly turn ugly as people take damage from trained mobs, your ward goes off, more and more mobs turn on you. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Runic does not "Proc".  A Proc is an effect that has a time normalized chance to fire when certain actions are taken.  This is not the behavior of Runic, nor has it ever been. Runic is simply a small regenerating Ward that when damage, repairs itself every six seconds on every group member.  It's like having a tiny Regen running all the time.  Don't like it?  Remove the buff. I didn't have a huge problem with it before the re-tune that dropped Ward aggro, and after that re-tune it's merely an annoyance not even worth mentioning given all of the other problems we have.

[SonanZ]

<DIV>I agree that the runic line with the built-in wards seems to exagerate the inappropriate aggro issue, but I don't think the ward has to even "go off" for the mystic to get aggro.  Sometimes, it seems like the mob goes straight to the mystic before it has even hit anyone else.  Also, even without this buff, the mystic still seems more likely to get initial aggro from proximity pulls, intentional or otherwise.  But other healer types have noticed similar things.  I'm fine if the devs wanted to make mobs smart enough to go after the most important group members first.  But what's happening with mystics goes beyond reason.</DIV>

[tebion]

well, with a tank that knows his/her job that aggro is a non issue i personally prefer roaming adds on me than on some squishy silk hankerchief wearing high elf <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and while training ... the more mobs are behind us the more we can show off, or? <span>:smileywink: i personally really really dig runic, the ward is a very very nice small addition (in adept III its 76 points, thats cool!) but i never witnessed any aggro without anyone being hit. yes, you might not see the animation, but they do hit, the initial hit while training can be from a range that looks slightly out of the normal melee range, but i highly highly doubt aggro is spread to the shaman without any hit. That rather sounds like some of the myths that were in EQ1 about how to spawn the AC <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> </span><div></div>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Runic does not "Proc".  A Proc is an effect that has a time normalized chance to fire when certain actions are taken.  This is not the behavior of Runic, nor has it ever been.<BR><BR>Runic is simply a small regenerating Ward that when damage, repairs itself every six seconds on every group member.  It's like having a tiny Regen running all the time.  Don't like it?  Remove the buff.<BR><BR>I didn't have a huge problem with it before the re-tune that dropped Ward aggro, and after that re-tune it's merely an annoyance not even worth mentioning given all of the other problems we have.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, reguardless of how it functions I think there is some element that is not quite right.  I was making an attempt to pin point perhaps a agro stacking measure thats not considered?  Still... something is not quite right.</P> <P>How can a 42 HP ward that generates every 6 seconds cause more hate then casting a group blanket ward that protects against 500+ HP?</P> <P>I know for a fact it is much harder for a tank to pull the MOB off me after getting agro from the 42 HP Runic ward.... then just casting the group blanket wards for 500+ HP.</P> <P>Thats just stupid wrong.</P> <p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 AM</span>

[tebion]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tuetatesu wrote:<div></div><p>Well, reguardless of how it funtions I think there is some element that is not quite right.  I was making an attempt to pin point perhaps a agro stacking measure thats not considered?  Still... something is not quite right.</p> <p>How can a 42 HP ward that generates every 6 seconds cause more hate then casting a group blanket ward that protects against 500+ HP?</p> <p>I know for a fact it is much harder for a tank to pull the MOB off me after getting agro from the 42 HP Runic ward.... then just casting the group blanket wards for 500+ HP.</p> <p>Thats just stupid wrong.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you mean casting the ward or when the ward intercepts damage? casting a ward is not much aggro, but when the ward starts taking damage, the aggro goes directly to the shaman. and there still are problems with stacking of wards, which could be part of your problem as well. Last i read (but nothing officially, just an observation of a very exact mystic together with numbers) was that when you stack 2 wards (and runic with a casted ward is nothing more than 2 stacked wards) both wards take the incoming damage (ie. it net's in the double damage if both wards can hold off more than the hit). And it is very likely that therefore you get the double amount of aggro from that hit, as both wards assign the warded aggro to the shaman.</span><div></div>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tebion wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Do you mean casting the ward or when the ward intercepts damage?<BR>casting a ward is not much aggro, but when the ward starts taking damage, the aggro goes directly to the shaman.<BR><BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>I have not noticed agro issues while "casting" ward.  I only see agro when ward is intercepted or does it's work.  My point though is when using casting ward I do get agro, but it's very managable.  I expected to get agro when ward does it's work.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that said, I noticed wards from Runic does generate more agro.  I know this because in my testing it took more then just one taunt or hit to pull the MOB off me.  The results of this test was consistant.  Two or more taunts... two more more connected melee or spell hits. Yes, it may not be exactly 3 times the agro, however it is more then or equal to twice the agro of a regular ward because of my results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When using regular casting ward it only took one taunt, OR one melee hit, OR one damage spell and the MOB was off me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I can only conclude that the ward from Runic either has too much agro, or some additional component that the devs missed, such as regen Agro, OR procing, that is stacking when the Runic ward goes off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:11 AM</span>

[Banditman]

If it takes more than one taunt to pull ANY mob off you there are bigger issues than Runic.  (your tank) Any tank who throws down a group taunt on incoming keeps mobs off me.  Now, this ASSUMES that the tank understands that all mobs must be in range of his taunt.  It ASSUMES the tank has upgraded his taunts to a reasonable (read:  Adept 1 or greater) level.  It ASSUMES the tank knows that once he has all the mobs he needs to do some sort of AE damage to the entire group. Runic isn't a problem with a tank who knows his stuff. It also assumes you realize that the WORST thing you can do when being pummeled by a mob is heal yourself (or Ward). I further assume that you tried using your aggro dump spell.

[tebion]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote: It also assumes you realize that the WORST thing you can do when being pummeled by a mob is heal yourself (or Ward). <hr></blockquote>uh, wasnt running around like a headless chicken and away from the tank the WORST thing to do when you get aggro? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[SonanZ]

<DIV>Just because some tanks are able to deal with the extra aggro bug, I wouldn't cease to call it a problem.  It is an issue that in many people's opinion needs to be dealt with by the dev team.  Other than raids, it really hasn't caused any significant grief to me either.  But raiding can be a huge pain, causing the tank to use unnecessary power to pull aggro off of the mystic, which can mean the difference between success and failure.  Especially if the taunt gets resisted and the mystic dies, removing all the buffs and of course heals/wards.  That has happened to me, 100% due to this aggro bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And of course the aggro dump spells help, but we can't realistically ask 23 other people to stand around doing nothing for 15 minutes between pulls in a raid, just so we can have that available for every pull.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SonanZ on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[Tuetatesu]

<P><SPAN>And to add to those comments and satisfy any assumptions about the tanks abilities to play or spells, I work with a very competent friend I have known and played with for years who plays a guardian and does have the required upgrades.  We had no troubles in EQ1 (being played with for years) or EQ2 until after Runic was changed.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>In fact he is very frustrated with it as well.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I am confident that this is not just a mater of not knowing how to play our roles right even after the update.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I think it just calls for a minor adjustment.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Guardians should be able to use taunt or have a melee blow pull MOB’s off me <U>if the only thing I did was have Runic buffs on people.</U></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Banditman]

<span><blockquote><hr>SonanZ wrote:<div></div> <div>And of course the aggro dump spells help, but we can't realistically ask 23 other people to stand around doing nothing for 15 minutes between pulls in a raid, just so we can have that available for every pull.</div><p>Message Edited by SonanZ on <span class="date_text">10-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Good thing they changed that recast to 5 minutes then.</span><div></div>

[Kana]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR><BR>Runic isn't a problem with a tank who knows his stuff.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I couldn't agree more.  They don't like hearing it at first, but yes, the tank can and should be able to make this nothing more than an annoyance.  As others have stated elsewhere, it can be a benefit.  I personnally love that an add will take one swipe at a squishy, then come straight for me.  I don't like getting beat on, but better me than them.  If the tank hasn't gotten them off after one round of hits, dropping Accordant Sprits almost always does the job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if there is a bug with Runic, which assigns us more aggro than it should, I feel it isn't a big enough deal to even worry about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kanali - 53 Mystic - Steamfont</DIV>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tuetatesu wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p><span>And to add to those comments and satisfy any assumptions about the tanks abilities to play or spells, I work with a very competent friend I have known and played with for years who plays a guardian and does have the required upgrades.  We had no troubles in EQ1 (being played with for years) or EQ2 until after Runic was changed.</span></p> <p><span>In fact he is very frustrated with it as well.<span>   </span>I am confident that this is not just a mater of not knowing how to play our roles right even after the update.</span></p> <p><span>I think it just calls for a minor adjustment.<span>  </span>Guardians should be able to use taunt or have a melee blow pull MOB’s off me <u>if the only thing I did was have Runic buffs on people.</u></span><span></span></p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class="date_text">10-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:09 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Maybe its level based, but I have been in groups from 30-45 after the revamp (using mentoring) and have not had any problems when pulling was done by any other method than proximity pulling. There is a problem, but that much we've all been saying since the revamp.  We would certainly like it to have less aggro.  But to many of us, this is just a minor issue, behind lots of much larger issues. 1) Stacking of priests 2) Warden healing problems 3) Group wards not warding for the proper amount 4) Making Templar utility fun so they stop trying to use it as a justification to be double the healer of anyone else 5) Adding flavor back in that was lost in the revamp: Bearform for instance As it is now, I'd rather the devs be working on anything in that list over Runic aggro.  Again, maybe its just my level, but those things are effecting my gameplay more than the minor aggro on the runic line.</span><div></div>

[Tuetatesu]

<P>Perhaps Epop, being selfish the Runic ward thing is the only problem I have experienced, so its the only thing I think needs to be fixed.  To me, if that was better, I'd be a happy camper.</P> <P>I can deal with the other issues you listed.  Because those don't cause total party wipes or Mystic deaths.  Not fun when it's caused by a Runic agro right of the start.</P>

[Eepop]

Which spell in the line specificly is causing you so much problems? I don't think you're making it up or anything... but believe me when I say the only time it causes any problem is if the tank does NOTHING but proximity aggro.  Even arrow pulls arent causing problems.  Every time I have died because of the regenerating ward is either an add or while travelling. If you can provide which one it is thats causing so much trouble, I can mentor down to see if I can replicate the problem. <div></div>

[The Croak]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Just wanted to add a few word here. I'm the guardian and usually tank for the group.  Since LU#13 the mystic agro has definitely been wrong.  No doubt about it, it's messed up and needs to be fixed.  Maybe it's not the highest on the list of problems, but it does need to be on the list and addressed by the devs. Granted, most of the time this is just an annoyance, and I just have to work a little harder (use more power) to get the mobs off the mystic. However, this problem has been the root cause of a couple TPW for a very experienced and capable group of players and has been extremely frustrating at times.  When an experienced group is pushing the limits and taking on heroic ^^^ grouped mobs everyone has to do their job and do it well for the group to be successful. And most times we do and it's very rewarding both in the sense of achievement and the good XP.  However, this is when the mystic agro problem is the worst. These mobs hit hard and when hitting on anyone other than the tank, the players go down quick. So quick in fact, that I'm unable to pull the mob off before he's killed our Mystic.  (talking maybe 10 seconds here, and you can bet that I have 1st taunted and completed a single HO, group taunted, cast suppress, and used my AE damage spell) But as soon as the mystic goes down, the rest of the group is quick to follow.  All the beneficial buffs are dropped, no slows available and some healing ability is lost. Not to mention most of the group dumped power trying to pull the mob off the mystic in the first place.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>However, what is most obvious example of something being wrong with agro generated by Mystics is the fact that any mob that agros any player in the group, turns and goes straight for the mystic, even when the mystic is halfway across the zone!  You'd think everyone would start out with hate of 0. But this doesn't appear to be the case. The mystic somehow is already top on the list and the tank always has to play catch-up to get the mobs off the mystic. I pull with an arrow or a taunt. You'd think that would be enough to start out on the top of the list since nobody else in the group has done anything. But no, I'll taunt a mob, he'll run right past me and start attacking the mystic. That just doesn't seem right. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Devs, please adjust the agro generated by Mystics.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>- lvl 32 Guardian</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P>

[The Croak]

<P>Not true Epop. As the guardian I always pull with either an arrow or taunt. The mobs still goes for the mystic first. </P> <P>-lvl 32 Guardian</P>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>The Croaker wrote:<p>Not true Epop. As the guardian I always pull with either an arrow or taunt. The mobs still goes for the mystic first. </p> <p>-lvl 32 Guardian</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Then it must be level based, because the tanks I have used havent had any problem with arrow pulling against runic.  Prewarding plus runic requires a taunt, but just runic does not.</span><div></div>

[Toob]

<DIV>I dont think it is lvl dependent since I am lvl 60 and body pulling or arrow pulling almost always brings mobs to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toobig</DIV> <DIV>Malice</DIV> <DIV>60 Mystic</DIV> <DIV>60 Sage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Croaker wrote:<BR> <P>Not true Epop. As the guardian I always pull with either an arrow or taunt. The mobs still goes for the mystic first.</P> <P>-lvl 32 Guardian</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then it must be level based, because the tanks I have used havent had any problem with arrow pulling against runic.  Prewarding plus runic requires a taunt, but just runic does not.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can help to Croaker's testament.  A guardian of the same level in my group has the same problem.  In honest cases the guardian I group with is either even to me or one level lower.</P> <P>In either case... we should not be having this kind of trouble.  I should not be forced to mentor down to the guardians level NOR should I be forced to group with higher level tanks.  Even if grouping with higher level tanks fixed the problem.  I think it makes no difference.  Perhaps of the tank is 6 levels higher and I am at the bottom of the chain, but thats not right.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eepop]

Not saying its dependant on the level of the tank. Dependant on the level of the buff you are using. I am using the one gained at 34ish, its a master 2, and my aggro from it is pretty minimial in all situations except pure proximity pulling. <div></div>

[The Croak]

Well, I've usually been 1 level behind the mystic in our group so I don't know if thats the same in your situation or not. But 1 level shouldn't make a difference... Also, when pulling more than 1 mob, what about the other mobs that you didn't taunt first off?  I've got 1 group taunt and 1 AE spell I can use but these two are almost always not enough to pull all the mobs off the mystic and on to me.  I have to take one mob at a time and usually complete an HO to get them on me. When you've got 4-5  mobs, the mystic might not live that long. If you've found better ways to manage agro, let me know!  Otherwise, DEVS please address this!

[Banditman]

I'd ask why your taunts weren't working.  I've never seen a situation where my Adept 3 Runic Talisman was able to hold aggro over a Guardian's Adept 1 group taunt.  Ever.  And I group with a Guard most nights. I've grouped with Paladins, Shadow Knights (quite a bit, good tanks now!), Berserkers . . . all of the plate class tanks and never had a single problem with someone holding aggro over Runic.  I don't know what someone else may be doing differently, but I know that it simply isn't something I've seen.

[Karlen]

Some thoughts from a 39 mystic who has not grouped very much since the update: - I always solo with Runic Shield on.  The 42 point ward combined with my 24 point heal from imbued armor very often can eliminate the need to use my regular wards.  Especially if I debuff the mob's combat abilities. - In a group with RS on, you WILL get pounded on by any mobs that are proximity aggroed. - If you are going to use RS in a group make sure that the other group members, and especially the tank, know that it is activated and understand its effects.  If the tank is careful to manage aggro it generally isn't a problem.  If the tank doesn't usually make much of an effort to hold aggro, it can be a problem. - If the tank is pulling, have him pull with a taunt or other aggro-causing ability, and if it wasn't a group taunt, follow up with one.  Don't forget that many buffs and other abilities can create aggro -- for example, I am pretty sure that a Paladin warding himself will aggro all mobs in the encounter. - Consider turning off RS in non-combat situations such as when you are running through groups of aggro mobs to get somewhere else.   Anytime anyone in your group proximity aggroes a mob, it will beeline for you.  On the other hand, this can be great if you are escorting low level people as everything will beeline for you. - RS will not stack with other wards.  You can cast them on top of each other, but all wards will take the hit.  If you cast RS, a single ward and a group ward, all three will absorb the hit.   This significantly reduces the effectiveness of regular wards as 42 points every 4 seconds or so will be duplicated. - Using RS in a group will mean that mobs will beeline to you whenever anyone takes a hit.  This can be good as it means that you know where adds are going to go -- the tank just needs to grab them from you while the other squishier members of your group don't get bashed on.  While not a "tank" class, mystics tend to be significantly less squishy than most other non-tank classes. <div></div>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Banditman wrote:<BR>I'd ask why your taunts weren't working.  I've never seen a situation where my Adept 3 Runic Talisman was able to hold aggro over a Guardian's Adept 1 group taunt.  Ever.  And I group with a Guard most nights.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>That is just like my issue.. Adept 3 Runic takes a guardian taunt AND melee hits before the guardian can get it off me.  This is very consistant for me.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I've grouped with Paladins, Shadow Knights (quite a bit, good tanks now!), Berserkers . . . all of the plate class tanks and never had a single problem with someone holding aggro over Runic.  I don't know what someone else may be doing differently, but I know that it simply isn't something I've seen.<BR><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>The problem is not "holding" agro.  Once the guardian gets the MOB off me controling agro is fine.  The problem is when the battle starts.  Like Croaker mentioned... it's like the Mystics start the battle with agro already built up on the agro chart being higher agro then anyone else in the group.  This makes it much harder to pull MOBs of mystics and takes a guardian taunt AND melee blows to get the MOB's off me.<BR></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tuetatesu]

Thanks for the tips Zotar99.  They should help.  It's to bad, I feel this is not by design that we should have to take those measures to subdue the agro problem.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zotar99 wrote:<BR>Some thoughts from a 39 mystic who has not grouped very much since the update:<BR><BR>- I always solo with Runic Shield on.  The 42 point ward combined with my 24 point heal from imbued armor very often can eliminate the need to use my regular wards.  Especially if I debuff the mob's combat abilities.<BR><BR>- In a group with RS on, you WILL get pounded on by any mobs that are proximity aggroed.<BR><BR>- If you are going to use RS in a group make sure that the other group members, and especially the tank, know that it is activated and understand its effects.  If the tank is careful to manage aggro it generally isn't a problem.  If the tank doesn't usually make much of an effort to hold aggro, it can be a problem.<BR><BR>- If the tank is pulling, have him pull with a taunt or other aggro-causing ability, and if it wasn't a group taunt, follow up with one.  Don't forget that many buffs and other abilities can create aggro -- for example, I am pretty sure that a Paladin warding himself will aggro all mobs in the encounter.<BR><BR>- Consider turning off RS in non-combat situations such as when you are running through groups of aggro mobs to get somewhere else.   Anytime anyone in your group proximity aggroes a mob, it will beeline for you.  On the other hand, this can be great if you are escorting low level people as everything will beeline for you.<BR><BR>- RS will not stack with other wards.  You can cast them on top of each other, but all wards will take the hit.  If you cast RS, a single ward and a group ward, all three will absorb the hit.   This significantly reduces the effectiveness of regular wards as 42 points every 4 seconds or so will be duplicated.<BR><BR>- Using RS in a group will mean that mobs will beeline to you whenever anyone takes a hit.  This can be good as it means that you know where adds are going to go -- the tank just needs to grab them from you while the other squishier members of your group don't get bashed on.  While not a "tank" class, mystics tend to be significantly less squishy than most other non-tank classes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[thedu]

<div></div>This may not seem the highest issue for Mystics right now, and I'm not whining or crying, I deal fine with the problems. However, it's like I mentioned in other threads that others are pointing out now -- whether it's definitely the Runic line or not, we are somehow on top of the Hate list in groups.  I've had good experiences and bad experiences grouping, and the bad experiences don't necessarily have to do with this issue. But one thing stemming from this that should be of concern is -- why should tanks need Adept 3 or Master's to regain hate? That means: hate isn't working correctly and aggro isn't working correctly. This isn't simply a concern for Mystics, but an overall problem for the game. <div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thedump wrote:<BR>This may not seem the highest issue for Mystics right now, and I'm not whining or crying, I deal fine with the problems. However, it's like I mentioned in other threads that others are pointing out now -- whether it's definitely the Runic line or not, we are somehow on top of the Hate list in groups.  I've had good experiences and bad experiences grouping, and the bad experiences don't necessarily have to do with this issue. But one thing stemming from this that should be of concern is -- why should tanks need Adept 3 or Master's to regain hate?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree... Tanks, especially Guardians, should be the BEST at taunting and gaining hate.  That's the epitome of the guardian role.  It's sad that they don't have the tools to do their jobs as they should, being the BEST class to take hate.

[Eepop]

And as I've said time and again in these threads since beta...  No one's saying that its perfect, and we /bugged the hell out of it in beta and in live now...but if we're going to lead a crusade against something, it seems like there are bigger fish to fry. Fixing Group Wards that are warding for the wrong amount is likely a change to just a couple numbers somewhere. Fixing the aggro problem on the runic line is likely much more involved, as they are just using the normal ward aggro code which is being stretched out of context. Data changes are easy, code changes are not. I will openly admit that perhaps we are being a little harsh, but we've found ways to cope with the aggro so it is entirely possible.  And I for one would be pretty upset if they followed the most common advice in threads on this subject, that of "just take the ward off". <div></div>

[thedu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:Data changes are easy, code changes are not. <hr></blockquote>I'm not asking for an overnight change, but it's no secret that a majority of changes were hastily put into the CU, and whether it takes 1 week or several months to fix, it still should be something that needs to be addressed. Especially something as critical as hate/aggro management. </span><div></div>

[Banditman]

I can safely say that THIS particular mechanic was NOT a last minute or hasty change.  Runic has had this Ward since beta opened.  It was bugged, discussed and eventually changed over time to what it is today. I'm going back to work on the bigger fish.

[trin ka]

<DIV>I just drop runic and put Prophecy on another ally if it becomes an issue.</DIV>

[CallMeToyMan]

<span><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:<div></div> whether it's definitely the Runic line or not, we are somehow on top of the Hate list in groups.  I've had good experiences and bad experiences grouping, and the bad experiences don't necessarily have to do with this issue. But one thing stemming from this that should be of concern is -- why should tanks need Adept 3 or Master's to regain hate? That means: hate isn't working correctly and aggro isn't working correctly. This isn't simply a concern for Mystics, but an overall problem for the game. <div></div><p>Message Edited by thedump on <span class="date_text">10-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So far my experience has been that we are not at the top of the hate list.  Although I suppose it is possible we carry some residual hate from previous encounters, or a have a default hate value that is greater than others, the game seems to be behaving for me as it should, as if everyone in the group starts with 0  It doesn't matter then who is at top, or by how much, if you have 1 more point of hate then everyone else the mob will come after you, all or nothing.  I mean look at the others comments on this thread when I mentioned you might consider turning it off in groups that are getting wanders or the tank is proximity pulling.  What many said was (paraphrased) 'i'd rather take a few hits from the mob then a squishy'.  Now think about it, if you've seen mobs wander into your camp and attack a caster, and then secondarily after your ward went off, it must be that others in the group are also (at least sometimes) start out with as much hate as you do.  As far as I have seen that's just proximity based, starting with 0, the mob picks the closest target.   Again keep in mind it doesn't matter if you have 1 more point of hate or 1000 points, if you do something (or your buff does something) that adds to your hate and puts you over the top you will remain the target of the mobs affections.  Based on what I have witnessed, proximity hate is less than the hate generated by Runic Talisman's ward, so it's expected that leaving Runic Talisman up will transfer mob aggro to you.  As for the tank not being able to taunt off you, there are many possible reasons why: 1.) You have auto attack on further adding to your hate. 2.) You heal or ward yourself, or Runic Talisman ticks again healing you again (before the tank gets a taunt in). 3.) You threw a heal on the caster that was attacked before the tank has taunted off you. 4.) You have a ward left up on the tank from the last pull or you warded on the pull, and so the mob infact does turn on the tank hits him, generating more hate on you and the mob turns back on you again.  I suggest not prewarding and also cancel any ward that remains before the tank pulls - ward after the tank has taken some damage. 5.) The tank isn't targeting the mob that is attacking you when he taunts or he is just slow about doing it (yes such things happen <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) 6.) You've found a real bug because assuming all of the above I don't find Runic Talisman ward (Master 1 level, 87pts of warding) to generate more hate than can be managed. </span><div></div>

[Kana]

<P>On a side note, to those that hadn't noticed:  The mitigation portion of priest group buffs doesn't stack.  Only the higher one takes effect.  So, if there's a Templar in your group (for example), don't even bother with Runic if it's causing grief.</P> <P><STRONG>Kanali - 53 Mystic - Steamfont</STRONG></P>

[Banditman]

That mechanic is nothing new.  Priest mitigation buffs have never stacked, even before the revamp.

[CallMeToyMan]

p.s. I think eepops priority list, and bandits related comments are right  on as far as what should be priorities for Mystics.  And heed Bandit's warning about the Nerf bat.  It can go the wrong way (and in the long run we are much better off with the ward effect, and needing to manage it then having Sony remove it all together, which is not completely impossible given the tendency to over correct). <div></div>

[paisan]

<P>This spell has introduced a new and extremely useful concept to the game which i have started calling "Passive healing."</P> <P>Druids groups regen hp more. Shammy groups take less from initial hits and some subsequent hits.</P> <P>This is normally enough healing for some situations, duo'ing solo mobs etc. and makes the need for single target wards/direct heals not needed leaving time for us to enjoy other aspects of our characters like our dots. If there is agro associated with it cool. If there is too much agro associated with it vs. regular wards it should be looked into, but as long as we can counter this i say it adds flavor to playing a mystic. Powerful damage prevention but volatile... i like the sound of that. We have better "other skills" than the clerics but gain more agro from our warding... sounds like flavor to me even balance. Kind of like the defiler having a little better wards than we do but at a HP cost to himself or the druid having better damage spells.</P>

[paisan]

And btw the poor OP is just bringing some statistics to the table sharing with the community. No need to cut his head off for it. Save our agression for other things maybe... to quote some of you "There are other bigger fish to fry" 

[Eepop]

I am definitely sorry if I ever came across as trying to cut his head off.  But this is a repost of a previous topic, and while it sounds like he did do some serious testing, he then went on to make generalizations and not provide the data. In the end, the data is what would get the problem fixed.  We've got plenty of anecdotal evidence that theres something amiss, I think every mystic here agrees that there is.  But what we dont have is a large body of irrefutable evidence that this is a serious problem. <div></div>

[Banditman]

It's difficult to compile irrefuteable evidence when you don't even have a consensus who agree that the problem is serious.

[Tuetatesu]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Hehehe... guys... guys...</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>It's ok... yes, I did see some similar posts, some are general not knowing what caused the issue, some are pointing to having buffs but not sure which, and some posts just seem to blame Runic type buffs.  With the confusion and mix of posted information I saw (as you know much miss information can be found on forums) I wanted to try it myself as this issue was frustrating me too.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I could have posted a lengthy test plan with results, but rather wanted to just focus on discussing the root of the cause for being on the top of the agro list so quickly.  AND we have some great feedback to try to deal with this, although I think most of the solutions are drastic and take away from using such a great buff.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>In addition, I can't really do a through test.  I don't have the ability to see the backend numbers, agro build up numbers, and complete effects of the situation.  I can only report my "observations" of trial and error and try to share them with the community.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I want to thank everyone who replied, even those that feel there are more pressing matters.  As for my gaming in EQ2... I said it once... but again... this is the only struggle I have right now.  I have fun until we try to pull a very difficult MOB group and upon the tank pulling all the MOBs go straight after me... if the MOB's are tough enough group <U>and especially if the MOB's jump the group surprisingly</U>, I usually die before the tanks can pull them off.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Well... I'm going to try some of these suggestions and hope I can somehow control agro with the tools I have.  Perhaps I will have to toggle the buff on and off which is too bad.  It's just hard to toggle the buff because most of the time I die is when the group is surprised and jumped on and you want to keep the buff on as much as you can.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Anyhow... here to good ideas. cheers</FONT></SPAN></P> <P> </P>

[Eepop]

<div></div>Find a group of similar mobs, preferably same mob and level. Turn logging on. Say in group what you are doing for this fight, if you're prewarding, if you're using runic, etc. Have tank give  an incoming message appropriate to how he is pulling: 1) /g Pulling %T with an arrow. 2) /g Pulling %T by proximity. 3) /g Pulling %T with <name of AE taunt> 4) /g Pulling %T with <name of single taunt> Finish battle normally. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the log all output is timestamped, we know the moment the mob is pulled, and the first time you get hit is known as well. You now know exactly how much faster runic causes aggro to be drawn to you. Then post the log or make it available on the web. (theres plenty of places online where you can set up fast free websites). <div></div><p>Message Edited by Eepop on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 AM</span>

[Tuetatesu]

<DIV>Yeah... it would be nice to see the log.  Honestly I don't feel like spending that much time doing it.  I'm here to play a game, not do a damage/agro analysis.  Also, the log would not capture the agro numbers... each spell or hit has some agro measure.  Stuns, Mezing, and Taunts all have some value behind it.  I don't know what all those are. I do know its not just damage and how much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the instructions though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do want to add that I talked with my group and we plan to try using proximity arrows and more utilities to try to mitigate agro issues.  We will see how that works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im starting to see lots of complaints about tanks can't taunt or are frustrated not being able to taunt.  Perhaps... just perhaps... tanks need to be looked at.  They should be the KING's of taunt and able to do that very well.  If the guardian can't pull the MOB off me after Runic agro, perhaps they need more powerful taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still does not really address the issue of a suprise attack with Runic on and having the Mystic be at the top of the agro list to die fast!  We don't have armor of a cleric.</DIV>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tuetatesu wrote:<div></div><div>  We don't have armor of a cleric. </div><hr></blockquote>But we do have much more than the mages. Heh, sorry, can't help playing devil's advocate. In the end, yes its a problem.  But many times it takes alot of evidence to convince the devs of it.  Its not effecting me enough to get that evidence, and it looks like neither are you. Despite not showing the aggro numbers, my method does show how long it takes for you to pull aggro.  And would show exactly the break of point of what needs to be done to overcome runic aggro, or prewarding, etc.</span><div></div>

[Tuetatesu]

Hehehe... Eepop, your alright.  :smileywink:

[FXDXArien]

<P><FONT size=2>Ok I wasn't having problems until the last week or so...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I die all the time mostly due to group mates proximity aggroing mobs and then they run straight to me and beat the crap outta me.  The tank can't taunt them off he says... and most of the time it is the %$#@* group mate that has run way ahead of the pack and aggroed something and is then too far off to help and is asking what happened when I am lying there dead.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>It makes me very sad.  I die so much in groups I don't want to group with anyone.  I am becoming a harvest bot.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    At least I will have pearls...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Lvl 52 aggro magnet mystic</FONT></P>

[Tuetatesu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FXDXArienna wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>Ok I wasn't having problems until the last week or so...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I die all the time mostly due to group mates proximity aggroing mobs and then they run straight to me and beat the crap outta me.  The tank can't taunt them off he says... and most of the time it is the %$#@* group mate that has run way ahead of the pack and aggroed something and is then too far off to help and is asking what happened when I am lying there dead.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>It makes me very sad.  I die so much in groups I don't want to group with anyone.  I am becoming a harvest bot.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    At least I will have pearls...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Lvl 52 aggro magnet mystic</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is EXACTLY my problem.  Heck if someone gets mad at you they can train you on purpose to kill you.  I think that is the root of what I am trying to get at.  It's the ONLY thing that I don't like.</P> <P>Now.. after all this discussion. There are a few things you can do yourself to try to help.  One is to have your agro reduction spell ready... last night I confirmed its a 5 minute reset.  This might help in those situations.  See how it does.</P> <P>The only other is to never have Runic or re-charging ward group buff on unless you need it, now thats kinda silly I think, because the problem is those unexpected agros... so how do you know when to turn it off or when the good time to turn it on?  Casting it every melee is just dumb because its a utility buff, not combat buff.</P> <P>At any rate... like Eepop says... and I agree it may not be a highest priority, HOWEVER it is something they should look in to and adjust with either increaseing Fighters Taunt power ( best solution to me ) or somehow reducing the agro these line of spells causes the Mystic.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Tuetatesu on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[casac]

<DIV>Half of the thread delas with assumptions on runic shield. If I understand it right, runic shield is provided @lvl 33. At lvl 28 I don't have that runic shiled, but I do have the aggro problem. So in my view forget about problems linked to runic shield. The Mystic aggro secret is hidden levels below 33.</DIV>

[Eepop]

Spirit of Badger, which you do have, has the same type of regenerating ward. The spells that cause this problem for mystics: Spirit of Badger, Runic Shield, Runic Talisman. Problem: Regenerating ward causes more aggro than it should.  The only thing that is hidden about it is why some people are having little problem dealing with it and others are having severe problems with it. Whatever the reason, this isnt something the other priests have to deal with, so neither should shamans (yes defilers have the problem too). <div></div>

[Finora]

<P>The runic agro is an annoyance with the proximity agro. Oh I do hate it when the scouts are repositioning themselves without looking to see how close that wanderer is. And the mages standing WAAAAAAAY back but not paying any attention to anything but the fight. However,  even if there is agro the tanks I've had (been a guardian 5 levels lower, a paladin 4 levels lower and a berserker the same level recently) haven't had issues peeling the mobs from me. Nor have I had much issue standing up to the beatings I do recieve before the tank gets them off (I'm a buff elf.) /flex</P> <P>I do agree totally with Eepop though. Why should shaman have to deal with this if none of the other priest classes do? Not like we have super good, fast heals to make up for having the annoyance of extra agro.</P> <P> </P>

[Banditman]

In normal grouping situations, I have no problem with Runic.  However, when raiding, the problem is greatly exacerbated.

[casac]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eepop wrote:<BR>Spirit of Badger, which you do have, has the same type of regenerating ward.<BR><BR>The spells that cause this problem for mystics: Spirit of Badger, Runic Shield, Runic Talisman.<BR><BR>Problem: Regenerating ward causes more aggro than it should.  <BR><BR><BR>The only thing that is hidden about it is why some people are having little problem dealing with it and others are having severe problems with it.<BR><BR>Whatever the reason, this isnt something the other priests have to deal with, so neither should shamans (yes defilers have the problem too).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you, this is the first valuable information for me. Now I can play around with that badger spell. </P> <P>Why some having severe problems I can give a hint. Last step of heritage quest "The Return of the light" is to kill General Drull @bloodskull valley. There lot's of mobs are incoming and I would have appreciated to know, WHY they are all fighting me (especially as our tank got almost lost while zoning...).  In such situations (maybe added by only a semi-professinal tank) the spell causes problems that could be worked around by just switching it off. But to do so you need to know. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Saramina1]

<DIV> <P>I believe that our agro is not from our spell lines or our buffs at all but from the mobs a.i. changing. They have always been aware of what classes are attacking them as you can tell from the flavor text ( Random_orc_01 says, Get the priest!). Mobs seem to be a little more aware and are going for the more crucial classes.</P> <P>I watched this with my exp group the other night. When I was grouped with the others the mobs when proximity agroed (when the tank body pulls instead of casting an ability or using an arrow/taunt) all the mobs came to me first. When I was not in group they went after the conjurer. The group make up was Conj, Mystic, Bruiser, Assas, Monk. </P> <P>Yes Runic adds to this additional agro, however take a step back and disband for a minute, watch the agro from the tanks (just heal outside of group for a pull or two). You will find the mobs have some intelligence when choosing their targets.</P> <P>If the tank pulls with taunt or an attack that causes more agro on a single target then I have no problems with my agro. If it is a group and the tank uses an attack to pull all other mobs come to me. If I cast much during the time it takes for the tank to get agro ( or build my agro more) then the tank will have a difficult time taunting off me. A lot of this now depends on the levels of the spells. If the tank is using apprentice level taunts/attacks then my adept3/masters are going to draw more agro than they can taunt. However if my tank is using Adept3/master taunt/attacks then they will have no problem taking agro from me.</P> <P>Saramina</P> <P>57 Mystic</P> <P>Nektulos</P></DIV>

[Carryne]

I have the aggro problem too but in a group situation the tank can usually taunt them away but I also had a problem with the Lightbringer quest raid.  The moment the group of mobs arrived they all made immediately for me and I died pretty quickly followed by the rest of the raid.  This buff certainly seems to be generating more aggro than it should. <p></p>

[trin ka]

<P>Had Runic Tailsman made into adept 3 last nite....bring the hate!!!!!</P>

[NiagaraLight]

I'm still a Shaman so may not belong here.But a small group tested Spirit of the Badger (first of this spell line) and I thought I'd share what we found. Badger seems to generate aggro in all mobs of the type you are fighting, not just the ones in the encounter. So if you have repeated encounters with the same type of mob the Shaman is starting with ever increasing aggro.

[Xecr]

It definitely sounds like to me, that some spells need to be tweaked with regards to the aggro they generate for the caster.Xec