Aggro and Wards

[Maddcovv]

<DIV>I can not believe the aggro i get now. If I ward before a pull with Ancestoral Aegis (Master2) I almost always get smacked on the pull. It just gets worse if I add more wards like group ward. I have found even if I dont ward I sometimes get the  aggro because the Runic Talisman buff  has a ward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way I have found to get less is not to ward until after the tank has aggro but just try that on big mobs like Darathar, angler, etc, etc and see how long the tank lives.</DIV>

[Mattim]

Outside of special encounters, simply don't ward before pulls as you said. Tanks are big boys too, they can take the hits. I can personally vouch that paladins are tons more durable now and can almost entirely act as self-healing tanks against high blue heroic encounters.For the special occasions, wards may still need to be left off early. Let the clerics stack reactives since they will meter out less hate, or rather hate will better balance out and the tank can get ahold of the monster easier. Later in the fight open up with wards as a means of making the fighter easier.Just my observations so far.

[Jays]

<P>I don't ward on the pull I just use like a heal now. </P> <P>I think Runic Talisman is the biggest problem I have, I suspect the ward component is causing Mobs to aggro me on the pull when I haven't even cast a single spell during the encounter.</P> <P>Ummari </P> <P>Lvl 50 Mystic</P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Ellywen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaysee wrote:<BR> <P>I don't ward on the pull I just use like a heal now. </P> <P>I think Runic Talisman is the biggest problem I have, I suspect the ward component is causing Mobs to aggro me on the pull when I haven't even cast a single spell during the encounter.</P> <P>Ummari </P> <P>Lvl 50 Mystic</P> <P>Splitpaw</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's exactly it.  Found that out the second morning of the expansion when I became the MT every time someone got proxy agro.  Took it off (I have it at Master I too >&lt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I was just fine.</P> <P> </P> <P>I really hope the devs take off the dinky 89 point ward (maybe buff a stat or something instead) or fix this so that this ward for a whopping 89 doesn't result in me getting beatdown a bubble of health.  On a side note, I did get to tank a lvl 55 named mob heroic at 50 due to this. and pretty nicely, haha.  I think the paladin was jealous =p<BR></P>

[Banditman]

You really need to stop screaming about that 89 point Ward, as it will be a large help when AE's start flying. If your tank knows what he's doing you can still pre-pull Ward. In three nights, I've worked with four different tanks. Tuesday - Berzerker.  We started out in Clefts of Rujark.  He couldn't keep the mobs from beating the crap out of me, which meant I couldn't keep him alive.  We moved to SS and killed groups near the lakes.  He started to "figure it out" there.  Our Mages began to AE, I could Ward a second or two after pull.  So we moved to Pillars of Flame and went after L57 - 59 Cyclops mobs there.  By the end of the night I was able to pre-pull Ward him.  This tank learned what worked, what didn't and adjusted accordingly. Wednesday - Guardian.  We started in Pillars of Flame on Cyclops types and pretty much stayed there the whole night.  This guy "got it" right away.  I was pre-pull Warding him on nearly every pull with no aggro.  On the rare occasion I did get aggro, I dropped Accordant Spirits (Adept 1) and lost it immediately.  Very smooth session. Thursday, early - Paladin.  Started out a little rough.  He needed a lot of healing, and it was tough at the start.  We picked up a Templar allowing us to split the healing aggro between us and had no further problems until we ran up against a L63 named Cyclops in Table of the Ancients.  We were killing mobs and groups of mobs up to L62 before the named made us cry. Thursday, late - Berzerker.  Started out rough and got worse.  This guy couldn't hold aggro if someone put a handle on it for him.  In researching it, we found that this guy had identical level spells / skills as the guy on Tuesday, but simply couldn't "figure it out".  Even when we left Pillars of Flame for Sinking Sands (easier mobs) he was still losing aggro to our Mages and Scouts. The tank matters - a LOT.  If you find yourself using Adept 3 and Master level spells, your tank BETTER have the same.  The tank needs to be smart and creative, and so do you.  Find out what works and go with it.  If it doesn't work, leave.  Find a situation where it does work.  All tanks are not created equal, some of them just plain suck.  Steer clear of those.  It was too easy for them for too long, and now they have to work for it.  Some of them don't "get it" and they cost you debt.

[FXDXArien]

<DIV><FONT size=2>50 Mystic here, my husband plays a 50 Monk and is our usual group tank.  I run Runic Talisman and I ward after his initial pull using the Master II and I have not had a problem pulling aggro at all.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>And as it has been said a lot recently these tanks are having to play a lot different.  He has changed his play style entirely he says.  He has to taunt a lot more rather than rely on his dps to build hate.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>No complaints here about the little ward on our buff.  I ward like crazy and have not pulled aggro from him once.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>On another note - one of our friends plays a 50 Mystic also.  Not a good mix for our group I know, but hey we are pals.  Anyway...she does a pre-pull ward and has not pulled aggro either...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>

[Terq]

<P>Yup. </P> <P>Make sure that the tank is pulling with a taunt, or that his very first combat art is a taunt after he pulls.  Otherwise you are going to have problems.  Trying to rely on DPS to maintain agro is not going to work anymore.  </P> <P>Everytime I see a tank proximity-agro a mob, I know that I am fixing to take a beating.  However, when he launches into taunts straight away, I usually don't have any problems. </P>

[Volka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:You really need to stop screaming about that 89 point Ward, as it will be a large help when AE's start flying.<hr></blockquote>No offense, but you don't speak for everyone here, so don't start telling people what they should or shouldn't be posting about. People have every right to complain about whatever they see fit to deem as a problem with this class. And on that particular issue, you're probably well in the minority of whether you see it as a real issue or not. It goes well beyond tank/healer mechanics; knowing a tank that "gets it" (if we could stop using this generic vague meaningless statement that'd be great) isn't going to mean squat when you're in an exp group without a tank class, is it? There are even idiotic beyond general combat mechanics; people just running through a zone to get somewhere and accidentally aggro a group; who cares, right, if there's a Mystic in the group they'll get to eat it instead.</span><div></div>

[Finora]

I'm with Banditman, that 'dinky' 89point ward can be pretty nice. I actually like the Runic buffs how they are. The tanks just have to learn to deal with the new agro that wards/heals generate. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are other classes that have taunty things too. And if you are in a group with out a tank, then you and the rest of your group are responsible for learning to deal with your agro. If there isn't a tank in the group you might as well tank yourself if you are getting that much agro. /shrug  No need to call for a useful buff to be nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as freaky agro in the zone with mobs running to someone, that was happened pre-revamp and not just to mystics so I have doubts that has anything to do with Runic buffs anyway.</DIV>

[DarknessScyt]

<div></div><hr><i><span>Volkarn said: "No offense, but you don't speak for everyone here,"</span></i><hr><i><span> - </span></i><span>Uh, I believe he is, both Banditman and Eloora as I recall are Mystic's class representatives. We casted votes to Faarwolf when the topic was up aaaaages ago.Okies, back to the topic.</span>I also agree with what Banditman is saying.Your MT has to change his playing style. I always duo with my RL lvl50 monk friend and when we tried the expansion for the first time I told him about what I read on the forums such as Mystics drawing great aggro when Runic Talisman is up, yada yada :pAfter the first heroic mob, I was able to keep Runic Talisman up, Ward before pulling, heal + ward throughout the battle and even cast all my debuffs.I got to say, now, your MT has got to earn his salt when tanking. So the sooner he/she changes her playing style the better.Now, the only case I remove Runic Talisman is when we are running to some place since mobs usually hit the tank while running and come straight for me <span>:smileytongue:</span>I want my parries back!! <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by DarknessScythe on <span class="date_text">09-16-2005</span><span class="time_text">09:00 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by DarknessScythe on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 PM</span>

[Volka]

<span><blockquote><hr>DarknessScythe wrote:<div></div><hr><i><span>Volkarn said: "No offense, but you don't speak for everyone here,"</span></i><hr><i><span> - </span></i><span>Uh, I believe he is, both Banditman and Eloora as I recall are Mystic's class representatives. We casted votes to Faarwolf when the topic was up aaaaages ago.</span> <hr></blockquote>Obviously that isn't true here, is it? A representative takes the issues of the majority and presents them to a superior - that is the entire point. If that is not being done and instead rejects the issues of the majority, he is obviously no longer fulfilling that position. It's not complicated, and it doesn't give anyone any license to tell people what they should and shouldn't be posting. It's pretty clear that the majority of both the Mystic and Defiler populations (at least those that wish to communicate their opinions here) are not satisfied with the state of the spell. That needs to be taken to the developers, regardless of what your opinion on the matter is.</span><div></div>

[DarknessScyt]

Banditman clearly states the reasons why people should cool down about the Runic Talisman buff by mentioning it's usefulness  against  AoEs and  how  aggro could be controlled by a competent Tank. What I have seen is, that most people instead of working around this issue and getting hang of playing their class again are screaming bloody nerf everywhere. I've grouped with a couple of tanks who were able to understand how to play their characters after a couple of days and I was not getting any aggro (if I can do it, anyone can). And this is not only me saying this but many Mystics around here too, if you would browse around and read (I don't know about lower level mystics since I am 50 myself). So the gist of what I am saying is what I understood from Banditman's post which is to quit whining and try different solutions. I just got irritated when you attacked him because I've been frustrated due to all the newbie topics about how Mystics are now NERFED beyoned the realm of redemption. In my case, I don't give a rat's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about what the developer's do with the Runic Talisman line just keep the ward (remove aggro, put an 11 hrs timer on it) and don't hit us with that Uber Nerf Bat [tm] Regards <div></div>

[Volka]

I'm really only getting on his case because I don't like the idea that we have people going around on the forums just saying "This isn't really a problem, you or your friends just suck because it doesn't affect me in the same way". I'm only level 20 right now, and I think the CU was totally awesome for this class. Everything seems much better; more streamlined, better progressions, more interaction. I've already gone over this in the CU forum. I'm not talking about the class being gimped or any such nonsense. This particular issue, though, isn't just people not adjusting to the changes. There's too many posts from too many people to just brush it off as something that people haven't adjusted to. I'm not saying either that I think it's the most monumental worst thing to ever happen, but obviously it's causing a disproportionate problem for many people, and whether or not it gets changed in the end I suspect the vast majority of Shaman players would like it to be reviewed. If you disagree about the issue at hand, you can go about discussing it in a manner that doesn't stem from you assuming you are already correct. Telling people they need to "quit crying about it" is nonsense, and especially so if it's from someone that is supposedly a representative for the issues the Mystic community wants addressed. It's especially bothersome when that person says things like "I would rather some of our other issues be addressed"; being a representative for a group is not about your own personal agenda. This issue is clearly something the community would like reviewed for our class, so if we do have some kind of representative they should be paying special attention to the concerns of the majority. Some of these "work arounds" don't apply to every situation. If you're in an exp group without a fighter archetype, this causes a lot more problems. For the most part I can't even figure out why there should be "work arounds" for a toggled group buff that requires a concentration slot. Really though, that doesn't matter. This is more than a valid concern, and it is not up to any one person or persons to judge whether or not those concerns are worthy enough in their eyes to be brought to the table. That can be left to those who have the means to actually change things based on that feedback. <div></div>

[DarknessScyt]

<div></div>Wow..... You know, you were able to convince me....... Never did I think about this subject in a different perspective (such as different group constructions). But you know, you are right. Thank you for not turning this into some kind of flame wars instead of taking away my ignorance. I hope the Devs  listen to this issue without placing any Nerfs that could hinder us in the process <span>:smileyhappy: Thank you again on the nice and informative post...I've been missing those since hell broke lose on the forums  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Cheers and Regards, Edit: html errors? <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by DarknessScythe on <span class=date_text>09-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>

[Carmelio]

<P>Im sorry banditman but I do not agree with you either, this aggro issue goes way beyond having a tank that "gets it".  </P> <P>If you are fighting in safe places where there are not tightly packed groups of mobs maybe the tank "getting it" will work, but there are plenty of areas where others in your group can accidently pull aggro and the mobs will run straight to you, nothing your tank can do about it.  It may not always be deadly, but it is very highly annoying to say the least, it needs to be stopped and frankly I don't think you are helping the majority of mystics out by defending this unwanted aggro.</P> <P>Stopping 89 points of ae damage is really not going to help all that much, maybe if you are taking ae from a level 9 Fairy in Oakmyst Forest, but Ae's from Venekor or other high-end mobs will be barely affected by this ward...</P> <P>I played my mystic to level 51 and am switching to my fury alt until something is done about this issue, I am tired of trying to level through 15% - 20% debt a level.  Good luck to you mystics that stick it out, may the force be with you! :}</P> <P>Just thought i'd add that I've grouped with several defilers and they seem to have the same problem, although it doesnt seem quite as severe as ours...</P>

[Volka]

I also apologize if I come across as harsh, it's not my intent. I'm only trying to be as direct as possible because I think it's for the best in terms of having the issue at least reviewed sooner rather than later. I am not trying to insult Banditman, and I think very much that he has been (and still continues to be) a valuable asset to our class' community. I just want to see this taken care of because I think something is genuinely wrong with how it is operating, and the varied reports of how it is affecting some people make me believe it might be bugged. <div></div>

[Polaj]

<P>As far as fighterless groups go-I'm not sure you're going to find a better solution than us tanking anyway. The combination of less tanking=more healing and less taunting=less aggro control means you're probably going to get hit some, maybe a lot. A rogue type might be able to hold some aggro with their weenie taunts (which supposedly got better, by the way) and they are probably better tanks than we are without parry, but if they're tanking they aren't doing near their damage potential. Anybody else? Pfftt. Accept it. Your're tanking.</P> <P> </P> <P>The larger point, I guess, is that a fighterless, or healerless, or DPSerless group is going to have to scramble some anyway. That's not a bad thing, but it probably isn't what you want to balance spells around, either. If people are still having problems with Runic Talisman in groups with fighters in a few weeks, then maybe there is a problem-but if it causes too much problem for "non-traditional" groups, then I'd say just turn it off.</P>

[Moshi]

<DIV>another post about wards being the problem of hate, have you even tested this ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i tried not buffing not warding, no runic talisman , it doesnt matter one bit, they run for the mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>must be unintentional hate aura from eqlive that came with the shadowknight that ended up on us as a built in hate lol</DIV>

[Blublood]

<DIV>Here is an example of the amount of hate wards can generate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Myself L50 mystic, a 42 Wizzard and a 46 Templar hit sinking sands found a pair of  50^^ dervs. I wanted to see how well wards would keep aggro so i pulled with grim lethergy, warded and went to melee, Wizzard DPSed both mobs to death, Temp did all the healing and I warded myself. In an hour and a half I never lost aggro off either mobs. Oh I had runic up also so Im sure that had something to do with the hate. But why should i draw that much aggro. Its not my dps and its wasnt my healing. And why did both mobs stay on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blublud Greenspit</DIV> <DIV>50 Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Proud Member of Avante Gaurde</DIV>

[Mystiq]

Well as the other Mystic figurehead <span>:smileytongue:</span> I belive that there is indeed an issue with our aggro, be it from our wards, our buffs or some hidden tweak that was made (it sounds far fetched, but it wouldn't surprise me). It's not just the tanks you may find yourselves with, that's for sure. I've posted a few times about it already so I really don't feel it necessary to delve into again here. Suffice it to say that I've played about as much as a person can while still maintaining decent sleep since DoF came out, and I've seen some wacky aggro, lots of it,  but I also realize that we can't be immune to it, since we're that much more powerful now as priests. I hope our concerns about it will be looked at, and who knows, maybe the devs will come back and say they overdid it a bit. <div></div>

[BigDa]

<P>"Thanks for all the feedback guys.  The issue with hate from Nihilism being granted to the Warlock, and ward aggro in general have been fixed.  Keep an eye out for them in an upcoming update." - Archonix</P>