Deep breaths

[Banditman]

Seriously, stop, take a deep breath. Yes, life is a lot different today.  Better or not?  I dunno yet.  As a beta tester, I was very unhappy with a lot of things that happened there, as you can see in my "Combat Changes and You" thread here. However, one thing that NO ONE here seems to "get" yet is that it may not be completely "your fault" as the healer. I see so many people talking about " . . . in my normal group . . . " or " . . . with the people I always play with . . . ".  I think that's a good portion of the problem.  I know it was for me. When you are playing in your comfort zone, you try to do things "the usual way".  That no longer flies.  Not even close.  And this is NOT your fault! Your tank needs to learn how to play again.  For so long, tanks leaned heavily on their ability to do damage for a good portion of their aggro management.  They can't do that now. I made a special point last night to go outside of my "normal" group.  It helped . . . in the long run. For the first couple hours, we died a lot fighting mobs that should have been easy.  Tank couldn't hold aggro, I couldn't keep him alive.  I was ready to scream, and honestly so was he. All of a sudden, something "clicked".  We stopped dying, started wiping out the mobs we were fighting with ease.  Two Wizards and a Coercer in our group were able to AE like no tomorrow. The difference? The tank.  He finally found a combination of arts that "worked".  He was able to secure aggro quickly every time, and against multiple targets. No, I didn't have a lot of time to be casting a bunch of debuffs and DoT's.  I had to heal.  I had to heal a lot.  Fortunately, I had the tools. No, I was never able to use pre-pull Wards.  However, I was able to Ward the tank immediately after I saw his first taunt land and never pulled aggro. This is NOT all a "healer" or "Mystic" issue.  Tanks have a LOT of responsibility for holding aggro now.  Until they are ready to unlearn everything THEY have learned, there will be problems.  I don't care how long you've played with your current tank, he has to unlearn his class and start all over. Relax.  Breathe. I'm not saying the revamp is fluffy bunnies and flowers, but it's not as bad as all that - and it's not all you. No, I haven't been possessed by some evil force, I haven't given my account to someone else.  It's really me saying that.

[aprilstor]

<P>It's definately different for everyone. I keep telling everyone to just wait and see what happens..it's like learning a whole new game. </P> <P>Tanks are quitting in droves it sounds like though, hoping they can take a deep breath as well. </P> <P>Anyway..good advice..thanks.</P>

[Johaan]

<DIV>Banditman,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again for spending the time and energy you did on reporting changes in beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our zerker-shaman team focused on agro management last night.  Basically the tank group-taunts and then hits once before anyone does anything.  Then he continues to taunt at intervals throughout the encounter.  Very similar to MT duties in planer raids in EQ1.  The tank was holding agro under all situations just fine.  I had Runic Shield up most of the night, and with the taunt-then-hit sequence the tank was able to grab agro every time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once we had this figured out, we were able to bash our way through lots of melee-type mobs.  However, the burst damage from the caster heavy groups is still giving us fits.  Even groups of greenie casters gave better than they got.  Any suggestions, other than bringing counter-nukes to the party?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Banditman]

Zerker / Mystic is what I did my first night in DoF, and we did learn painfully how to make it work, and once we got it, it did work well. Yea, casters still hit VERY hard.  The best defense in this case is a good offense.  Know who the opposing casters are and keep them stunned / stifled / interrupted until they die - and make them die first and fast! And seriously folks, when building your group take a fresh look at Wizards.  Cuz holy SMACK!  Wizards can [Removed for Content]' SMOKE a mob now.  I had two Wizards in a group Tuesday night and man they could just UNLOAD once the tank learned how to build aggro. It was kinda funny . . . the mobs health would steadily decrease until about 40 percent and then the Wizards would unload and the mob just DIED like instantly.

[Johaan]

<DIV>Double post, sorry.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Johaan on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:44 AM</span>

[Arfiniel]

<P>In addition to relearning your role, and the tanks et al relearning their role, keep in mind that some of the mobs have changed also.</P> <P>An example:  The named nightblood contested mob in Enchanted Lands.  Previously, this mob could be taken out once we greened it up with lower level PCs and mentored as needed, by 4 people in one group.  Now at level 50 this mob is green, so we didn't need to bring in any lower levels, nor did we need to mentor.  We waltzed into the fight thinking "we are so gonna pwn this guy."  Wrong.  Three wipes later, we had to come up with an entirely new strategy for this mob and go from 8 people in our raid to 11 or 12.  We are all level 50's in a raiding guild, so we aren't noobs here.  The point is, things are just different.  As Banditman stated, do not keep your old mindset of how things work in regards to you, your groupmates, or the mobs you are killing.  It's a whole new ballgame.</P> <P>Next we went to kill shard drakotas.  Unfortunately, my wards were dropping almost as fast as they did before the combat changes but that's ok because I could tell they were making a difference vs. our old wards.  It's taking some getting use to, using wards again, but I am happy for the most part.</P> <p>Message Edited by Arfiniel on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Bolr]

I'm guessing you didn't mean it this way, Banditman, but your first post basically says "hey, it's not our fault. It's the tank's fault!".  That, of course, isn't entirely true or fair. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But I agree with the general sentiment in this thread. Lots of growing pains going on, that I see. As mentioned elsewhere, what I see mostly comes down to people using pre-patch as a reference point (can't really blame them for this), and a fascination with raw numbers. I think that most peoples' frustration (where it exists) can be overcome by doing one thing: completely forgetting the /con system that existed before Tuesday. It's a new game, for the most part, and many people are trying to fit it into "old thinking". And that's not working too well. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Yes, it is the tanks fault!  I meant it just that way. I'm not saying that Mystics (or healers in general) are blameless or have no responsibility, we certainly do.  Our responsibility is to make sure that the damage a mob does isn't killing the tank, or our other group mates. The tanks responsibility is to be so up in the face of that mob that it never notices what I as a healer am doing.  The tank is responsible for keeping that mob's attention so it doesn't notice that 5000+ HP nuke the Wizard just dropped. Too many Mystics were coming here after the revamp complaining that they were unable to keep aggro off themselves.  This is not their fault!  In most cases, it was the tank not realizing how much taunting he needed to do right away. I've gotten to the point now where I can run Runic Talisman and pre-Ward the tank and never see a mob in my face, with the occasional exception of a Named mob or very large group.  In those cases, Accordant Spirits (Apprentice 1 mind you), has always been enough to make the mobs forget I even exist.

[Purcupile]

<P>Your last response brings up a question that i have not seen on here before.  Before I get to the question, there are a lot of spells you level 50 guys have that I really don't relate to due to the fact that the level 30 spells are so different.  I am constantly trying to make a match up of what I have that might be from the same line as Runic Talisman or Accordant Spirits or other spells for that matter.  I just hit level 31 AP (After Patch) but I have achieved that level from probably 80-85 Soloing.  Now I am turning my direction towards grouping...and so comes the question...When you cast spells like Accordant Spirits do you direct the spell at a particular MOB, or do you cast it at the Tank?...Same question about your Runic Talisman ward, and also I had the impression from some earlier posts that pre-warding drew lots of aggro, so I'm a little confused about this.</P> <P>I think I've gotten a pretty good feel for the changes as they apply to soloing, and I am pleased with the changes.  I had to make some philosophical adjustments to my approach but I think I'm now playing better.</P> <P>Thanks Banditman for all of your insite and efforts to improve the game and it's players.</P> <P>Purcupile Scion of Archibald</P>

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Purcupile wrote: <p>Your last response brings up a question that i have not seen on here before.  Before I get to the question, there are a lot of spells you level 50 guys have that I really don't relate to due to the fact that the level 30 spells are so different.  I am constantly trying to make a match up of what I have that might be from the same line as Runic Talisman or Accordant Spirits or other spells for that matter.  I just hit level 31 AP (After Patch) but I have achieved that level from probably 80-85 Soloing.  Now I am turning my direction towards grouping...and so comes the question...When you cast spells like Accordant Spirits do you direct the spell at a particular MOB, or do you cast it at the Tank?...Same question about your Runic Talisman ward, and also I had the impression from some earlier posts that pre-warding drew lots of aggro, so I'm a little confused about this.</p> <p>I think I've gotten a pretty good feel for the changes as they apply to soloing, and I am pleased with the changes.  I had to make some philosophical adjustments to my approach but I think I'm now playing better.</p> <p>Thanks Banditman for all of your insite and efforts to improve the game and it's players.</p> <p>Purcupile Scion of Archibald</p><hr></blockquote>Runic Talisman is the group buff that increases physical mitigation and has a small regenerating ward on it.  Version around your level is Runic Shield. Accordant Spirits </span>is an area of effect spell which reduces hate towards the mystic.  Version around your level is Quelling Spirits. Prewards DO cause alot of aggro, the point he is making is that its not something a tank can't compensate for and overcome.  Using proper taunting skills the tank can gain more aggro than your ward gets you. <div></div>

[Banditman]

That does bring up an interesting potential bug I saw last night. I typically use implied targeting to cast spells at a mob.  I keep the MT targeted 95% of the time and simply cast through him. When I tried to cast Accordant Spirits this way, I got the message "No eligible target".  By targeting the mob directly, the message went away. Anyone else see this ? Anyway . . . Tanks do matter.  Their spell quality matters.  Their skill level as a player matters.  Bad ones will quickly show themselves to be bad.  Aggro will be all over the place.  Tanks are still accustomed to the old system where many heals just assigned hate to the tank instead of properly placing it on the healer. Mystics have the power to keep a group alive against challenging content at this point.  However, their ability is only as good as the tanks ability to keep aggro focused properly.  In some ways, Clerics do have it a little easier.  Their reactives are a more steady stream of smaller aggro, whereas a Ward can provide a BIG dose of aggro all at once.  That means that a tank with a Cleric can take a more casual approach to aggro and simply build at the same steady pace, whereas a tank with a Shaman or Druid needs to build a lot of aggro right at the start of the fight.

[Bolr]

Yes, I've seen that too, with Accordant Spirits.  Also, did you notice that the effect (particularly the stun) is not limited to the group you're fighting? It will aggro neutral mobs in range now. <div></div>

[Banditman]

No, I didn't notice that, but we were pulling to a place pretty far from other mobs to avoid any unfortunate situations. Let me get this bug in the channels I have available, just wanted to get it confirmed.

[Arfiniel]

I also target through the tank most of the time, and my Accordant Spirits is working just fine.  Mine is master 1 however, if you have anything less maybe it is just getting resisted?  What quality spell do you use?

[Tylee]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>Just wanted to chime in my 2cp.  I've spent most of my week running around with my hubby on his warlock. Turns out, he has continued to be the agro magnet he has always managed to be with this character.  Granted, we have now had several days to get used to the system. Let me cover the week briefly.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We both sat down Tuesday and spent several hours staring at each other screens, talking back and forth, discussing the changes to the various spells and figuring out what we thought they did. We set up our spell bars accordingly. We then we forth to see if we were right about what we thought, took ourselves off for some solo tours.  I went out to the feerrott, and learned to play my character all over again.  Some of what I thought was correct.  Some was dead wrong.  I adjusted accordingly.  Amazingly enough, I was out wandering the ranges out by CT solo and doing pretty good.  I was killing some of the mobs solo that had eaten me for lunch before.  Some of this I realize is because they changed the critters around.  True enough.  Some of the group mobs I had to settle for kill half, run them off, and come back kill again.  Ward, debuff, HO, Dot, DD, etc, I was doing a decent bit of killing solo.  Good Stuff.  NEVER DIED.   Seeing as I have one of the worst KpD ratios in my guild, I was chipper with this delightful stuff.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Decided it was time for some group action.  Grouped up with my husband then, at this point a 42 warlock.  Same zone, running between waterfall and alter of four cannons and then down on through CT.  We get slaughtered.  Multiple times.  A blue ^^^ dragonfly bug got us twice, but the rest of it was just sick.  Neither of us had grouped at this point. Living in the same house, we are of course looking at each other grumbling [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are you doing that’s getting me killed.  So we get a tank.  Lvl 40 guardian is available in guild, so he comes on out to play.  We kill stuff.  Tank notices he isn’t keeping agro.  (I know, long winded, but I just want to give this example)  We die some more.  Tank is now unhappy and upset because he can’t hold agro. At one point, we all start running off a crazy bunch of agro.  Warlock dies, tank and I are now on opposite sides of the lake.  My warlock hubby is blocked by two ^ blue guys so I can’t rez.  So I killed them.  ME, by myself.  Dead warlock, tank across the lake. Lil ol me. Once again, happy sunshine, and I rez hubby.  At this point the armor is near broke, and we call it done for the day.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Ok, so fast forward.  Grouping and solo, we are all running our characters.  LEARNING how to play. Today, we spent the day out in everfrost.  Hubby and I grouped most of the afternoon, made a level or 2 in his case.  Played like we were built to be together.  Invited out our 40 tank and a 44 monk from in guild for some fun.  Played REALLY well together.  To be honest, I couldn’t tell ya if the guardian, monk or warlock kept the agro.  I rarely had to heal the warlock.  Put alot of heal into the monk, because he was doing MT for us, and some healing into the guardian because he had intercept running. We got our butts kicked by the octopi thing in the cave right off the dock, but we had a heck of a time doing it.  Swept thru a large portion of everfrost like it was TS or something.  BEAUTIFULLY.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Even took the time to throw in some dueling.  FYI ahead of time, our duels take longer than the tank or nuke classes (haven’t seen a scout in action yet) I killed the guardian.  Yes he was 4 levels lower, but he put up a fight.  If I was just warding and healing alone I would have died, but the debuffs helped massively. Monk threw me across the room and beat me down tragically the instant my ward went down, and I could barely complete a spell to heal much less attack after that.  Warlock beat me, but it took him far longer than he wanted.  Stay in close so the roots don’t help them.  I’m going to beat him one day, I swear it.  I want a rematch on my monk friend.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>So yea, my point as I ramble on with my sleep deprived story line.  Before I said a public word of complaint, I tried it out.  I solo'd, I group'd.  I’m sure as I get into a larger group and then into a raid again, I’ll have more adjustments to make.  But we all had to change. So what if there’s a little AE on our wards? Before the update I could on occasion pull agro from even the best of tanks at times spamming heals and rezzing.  The wards don’t ward as much?  They take mitigation into account now.  If you think about it, this is better!!!  There is actually a point to warding against a large raid mob.  Before, they ate the ward faster than you could cast it.  Sure, I want the maul back on the bear form. Yes i voiced a complaint, because I can. It was like a bonus proc on a weapon.  One of the few good things I liked before.  Want it back now, but I am functioning without it.  No, I don’t understand the point of a 36 second buff.  If I’m correct, as I’m not looking at the spell, it takes longer to cast it than it lasts.  Love to have it longer. 3 minutes minimum.  15 would be nice.  If I don’t get it, ya know what?  I’ll take it off my spell bar for being useless.  Not a big deal.  These ARE changes we can live with.  This has made the character more functional on a solo level.  I’m not saying we can run off and solo in the darkest depths of lavastorm at level 40 cause were so awesome now.  But we can solo, and we can get good xp doing it.  It will take me longer to take down a ^white mob than a DPS or fighter, but I will take it down.  I actaully feel like i can contribute more to a raid group now than a few debuffs and spam heals.  I typically am the main haler in my normail group, but these changes are making my job easier.  The wards changes alone make me want to do the happy snoopy dance.  So yea.  there i was with my point.  ADJUST TO CHANGE.  It happens.  we'll get used to this, and it'll get changed again.  Adapt and overcome!!!</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV>