Pulling with Delusion

[Karlen]

Am I right in thinking that it is good, when soloing, to pull mobs with Delusion so that you get the full benefit of the stamina debuff?  Debuffing stamina reduces max hit points which will have little effect when the mob is already injured to below the new max? What do most people use for pulling (I'm 24 right now)? <div></div>

[Banditman]

Pull with Cry / Howl of the Ancients, follow with Delusion+. <div></div>

[Karlen]

Thanks.  I don't have that spell yet (I don't think), but will watch for it. <div></div>

[Eepop]

<P>Its a group stamia / resists debuff.  So the answer is yes, use your stamina debuffs to pull.  </P> <P>The group version was suggested as a start as it has a longer casting time, so you can do more important things during that time during combat.</P>

[Karlen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eepop wrote:<p>Its a group stamia / resists debuff.  So the answer is yes, use your stamina debuffs to pull.  </p> <p>The group version was suggested as a start as it has a longer casting time, so you can do more important things during that time during combat.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>As a matter of interest, does it create very much aggro?  I don't seem to have many (any?) group-aggro spells for use when I am tanking in a group. I know that mystics aren't supposed to tank, but sometimes I am in a better position to tank than whoever I am grouped with, especially in small groups that don't include fighters.  </span> <div></div>

[Banditman]

The other thing is Howl / Cry also debuff resistances, which is HUGE. Subsequent spells land more easily, your damage spells do more damage . . . you really can't miss. I find that once I land Howl / Cry on a mob, I'm pretty much gonna land all my subsequent spells until the mob gets REALLY far above my level.  At L50, Howl makes anything less than L55 pretty easy to land on.  L55+ gets really dicey, and good freakin' luck landing ANYTHING on Darathar consistently. <div></div>

[Nacire]

Personally I pull with haze and just don't turn on auto attack till I've cast the 2 sta debuffs (grp one first for the resists).  Even though haze has been nerfed, still combine with our water breathing secondary (+defense) it still make enough of a difference to be visible, and since I'm gonna be tanking the mob throughout I'd rather lower the damage I'm gonna take right from the start.  On easy solos I may or may not bother with the single target sta debuff just cause it's pointless unless it makes it take a full round of dots less.  If you do the fight using only the grp sta drain and it takes 3x stackin yer dots to kill, but last set barely lands before it falls, then you need the single as well and it'll only take 2x dot rounds.  But if you need a 3rd round and it nearly ticks out before the mob falls, your wasting time casting 2 sta debuffs.

[Banditman]

Once you have done 20% damage to the mob there is absolutely no reason to keep a STA debuff fresh.  If there are other effects tied to the spell, fine, but the STA portion is worthless. <div></div>

[Mecrushu]

<P>what about on long fights like group x2 mobs? </P> <P>does it do any good to re cast a stamina debuff after the initial one wears off?  </P> <P>And does the first cast have any affect on the mob after it has worns off?</P> <P> </P>

[Karlen]

I suspect it would depend on whether the mob can heal itself up past the mark that your stam debuff drops its max health to... <div></div>

[Banditman]

The easiest rule of thumb to remember, and it's nearly always right, is that if a mob has lost more than 20% of it's health, renewing a STAMINA debuff is worthless. However, you must consider whether the other effects a debuff has are worth keeping fresh.  Cry / Howl for instance debuff Elemental and Noxious resists, meaning other spells land easier and do more damage. Delusion+ debuffs STR as well, which may help in lowering a mobs DPS, the value of which fluxuates from negligible to minimal. <div></div>

[Nacire]

<P>Even with my delusion at master level I can only see a difference on raid mobs as far as damage output goes, there it can be VERY apparent depending on the encounter.  As for the STA debuffs, once they land and you do even ONE point of damage, refreshing it for the sta drain itself is pointless unless the mob heals.  When you debuff stamina it drops the mobs MAX hp, not current.  Now if the new lower max is less than it had (which it will be if you've not done damage yet) then you do even one point of damage the sta bit has done all it can, when the debuff fades the mob's max hp raises again but it's current doesn't.  Likewise if you cast both sta drains on a mob, then without damaging it you click them off (or mob dispels as I've seen a few rare ones do) then the mob is still full hp.</P> <P>That being said the secondary effects are more than worth it on the cry/howl lines as those resist debuffs make a MAJOR difference.</P>

[Naemir]

<P>I recently got Howl of The Ancients and have taken Banditman's advice and used it for pulling mobs in the solo Splitpaw instance (Delving into Darkness). It works really well, and the resistance debuffs definitely seem to increase the damage done by my DoTs. Fights go much quicker since I started doing this.</P> <P> </P> <P>Daric</P> <P>Level 40 Mystic</P> <P>The Old Guard</P> <P>Najena Server</P>

[Karlen]

<font color="#ffff00">>>>Pull with Cry / Howl of the Ancients, follow with Delusion+.<<< <font color="#ffffff">OK, I got Cry of the Ancients recently and have been stacking it with Delusion.  I'm currently 26 and have been fighting level 30 orcs.  Here is what I do to kill an orc, leaving me at about 1/3 power: </font></font> Pull with <font color="#9966ff">[Cry of the Ancients]</font> (stam debuff and cold/heat/disease/poison debuff) <font color="#cc66ff">[Ward] </font> <font color="#9966ff"> [Delusion]</font> (stam/str debuff) <font color="#9966ff"> [HO]</font> activate autoattack <font color="#9966ff"> [Orc Master Smite]</font> (str debuff and damage?) <font color="#9966ff"> [Cold Fire]</font> (DoT) <font color="#9966ff"> [HO]</font> <font color="#9966ff"> [Grey Wind]</font> (Damage) <font color="#9966ff"> [Contagion]</font> (DoT) <font color="#9966ff"> [Ward] </font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [HO]</font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [Smite]</font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [Cold Fire]</font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [HO]</font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [Smite]</font><font color="#9966ff"> </font><font color="#9966ff"> [Contagion]</font> At this point, the CF and Contagion should finish off the mob.  Am I missing anything that I should be casting? Thanks for your help everyone. <div></div>

[Banditman]

<P>Swap out Smite for Gray Wind.</P> <P>There is a change coming that will nerf that little trick, but for now at least, you can conserve power on your HO's by using lower level abilities.</P> <P>Stack Miasma and Contagion for an ultra fast HO completion as soon as you can.  Miasma should be very soon for you.</P>

[Nacire]

To really save mana, use only your dots to do HOs.  Use the long cast one (cold fire) to bring up wheel, and contagion/miasma to complete.  You need to keep these dots running anyway, why not make a HO out of it.  And our dots are far and away our most efficient damage, you can toss in the lil nukes we get but even at master level they are a joke, and a waste of mana with the exception of the mastery smites.

[Karlen]

>>>Swap out Smite for Gray Wind.<<< Gray Wind seems to do a bit more damage than Smite (at the cost of more power), but I suppose they both do negligible damage compared to the HO damage.  I usually use Grey Wind once and then Smite after that, except if my Smite is resisted and I need to cast something else fast. >>>To really save mana, use only your dots to do HOs.  Use the long cast one (cold fire) to bring up wheel, and contagion/miasma to complete.  You need to keep these dots running anyway, why not make a HO out of it.  And our dots are far and away our most efficient damage, you can toss in the lil nukes we get but even at master level they are a joke, and a waste of mana with the exception of the mastery smites.<<< If I am not using an [XXX Master Smite], I usually cycle the DoTs for HOs and [HO][Smite][Smite] in between. Thanks for the advice everyone. <div></div>

[Finora]

<DIV> don't seem to have many (any?) group-aggro spells for use when I am tanking in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group wards or group heals. </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Karlen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Calendri wrote:<div> don't seem to have many (any?) group-aggro spells for use when I am tanking in a group.</div> <div> </div> <div> Group wards or group heals. </div><hr></blockquote>Good point.  And they will be even better with the upcoming aggro changes.  </span><div></div>

[Karlen]

OK I've decided I like these stamina debuff spells. Does anyone use them for pulling in groups?  For example, I've tried: (Target the tank who has the next mob to be pulled targetted) [Group Ward] [Cry of the Ancients] [Single Target Ward on Tank] (tank draws the mobs onto him with taunts) <div></div>

[Eepop]

I usually just wait for the tank to pull the mobs to the group to land it. He runs out, shouts an encounter, starts to bring it back and starts his HO. I use my AoE stamina debuff, which advances his HO. And then the group finishes the HO. I would say for the most part though, that healer pulling is probably just a generally bad idea.  It seems that initial aggro is much higher than the raw value would indicate.  Also, if there is any other healer in the group, they may waste time/power on healing you from the few initial knocks you take. <div></div>

[Kana]

<P>With regard to combinations for starting & completing HOs....</P> <P>I generally follow this order for soloing, after casting Howl/Delusion:</P> <P>HO Starter  --> Cold Fire  -->  Pox</P> <P>*wait for HO refresh*</P> <P>HO Starter --> Smite --> Contagion</P> <P>My logic is that both Cold Fire and Smite have longer cast times, and therefore are more susceptable to interrupts.  Being interrupted <EM>before</EM> an HO is triggered is no big deal, just cast again and nothing is lost.  However, those precious seconds lost <EM>after</EM> an HO has been triggered might cause you to fail, in the event of a subsequent resist, interrupt, etc.</P> <P>I currently use Smite instead of Grey Wind because our nukes are very inefficient.  At 12 power, Smite is acting as a free HO advance.</P> <P>Minor efficiencies gained, but once in a while, they might make the difference.</P><p>Message Edited by Kanali on <span class=date_text>08-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Eepop]

Aye, thats the de facto standard for solo HOs. My suggestion was for grouping, not soloing. <div></div>

[Banditman]

If you are trying to burn something down really fast, usually a writ mob thats low blue or green: Pull with Howl, follow with Chimerik. HO > Pox > Contagion > Icy Flames > Ire of the Gray > HO > Smite > Ire of the Gray At L50, with my equipment, power is no longer a concern on short fights.  In fact, that line of spells there usually kills a writ mob . . . Bitterwind Pioneers and Ice Wolves in EF come to mind. This won't work for everyone.  If you have power problems, the first thing you should do is use Smite instead of the high power Ire.  I realize and admit that I have gear that exceeds the limits of many average Mystics, and I can definitely do some things that they can't.

[Karlen]

>>>My logic is that both Cold Fire and Smite have longer cast times, and therefore are more susceptable to interrupts.  Being interrupted <em>before</em> an HO is triggered is no big deal, just cast again and nothing is lost.  However, those precious seconds lost <em>after</em> an HO has been triggered might cause you to fail, in the event of a subsequent resist, interrupt, etc<<< Good point.  I am going to reorder some of my casts to see if this helps. >>>I currently use Smite instead of Grey Wind because our nukes are very inefficient.  At 12 power, Smite is acting as a free HO advance.<<< Apparently, one change that is coming soon will be that the effect of HOs will depend on the level of the spells used to trigger them. <div></div>

[Banditman]

That change to HO's is VERY noticeable indeed.  Perhaps too much so.