Stacking Wards doesn't work

[Baccalarium]

<DIV>I got the thought of stacking several wards just before battle form reading somewhere on these boards, but when I try it,  it always seems I would get damaged even before the wards expired.   Gave up and ignored it for  a while, but eventually got around to testing/logging this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cast three wards on myself in this exampe,  WSS, Wards of Spirit, and Ancestral Ward,  then solo a giant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very first damage from giant appears that 2 of the 3 wards absorb the unmitigated damage, AND I get hit by the mitigated damage.  (Nice way to see mitigated vs. unmitigated of various damage types I suppose)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps an answer to another thread, it appears that which ever ward stopped absorbing damage, the damage that went through was still mitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Real question,   has anyone seen anything about this getting fixed?  Since wards aren't that useful most the time anyway its probably not high on the list, but _IF_ wards are to be useful it sure would be nice to fix,  and if nothing else its an ugly bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(111473514<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Apr 28 17:39:08 2005] You begin to cast a healing spell<BR>(111473514<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Apr 28 17:39:08 2005] You are not in a group<BR>(1114735150)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:10 2005] You strike Baccalarium with Wakinya's Skin of Spirits.<BR><STRONG>(1114735150)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:10 2005] Your skin begins to glow.<BR></STRONG>(1114735152)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:12 2005] You are not in a group<BR>(1114735157)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:17 2005] The spirit of the wolf leaves you.<BR>(1114735157)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:17 2005] You call protective spirits to shield your party from harm.<BR><STRONG>(1114735157)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:17 2005] Your skin begins to glow with spiritual wards.<BR></STRONG>(1114735160)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:20 2005] You call upon the protective spirits of the ancestors.<BR><STRONG>(1114735160)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:20 2005] Baccalarium surrounds the group with the protection of the ancestors.<BR></STRONG>(1114735167)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:27 2005] You strike A Firerock giant with a confusing blast!<BR>(1114735167)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:27 2005] A Firerock giant is weakened as the blast strikes It!<BR>(1114735167)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:27 2005] aNPC 3345970 a Firerock giant:a Firerock giant/a says,"Drink the blood from your bones!"<BR>(1114735167)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:27 2005] A Firerock giant gathers divine energy!<BR><STRONG>(1114735169)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:29 2005] Your ward absorbed 186 points of damage!<BR>(1114735169)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:29 2005] Your ward absorbed 186 points of damage!<BR>(1114735169)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:29 2005] a Firerock giant's Smite hits YOU for 149 points of divine damage.<BR></STRONG>(1114735169)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:29 2005] You are struck with a smiting force!<BR>(1114735169)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:29 2005] YOU try to disease a Firerock giant with Keening Haze, but a Firerock giant resists.<BR><STRONG>(1114735170)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:30 2005] Your ward absorbed 112 points of damage!<BR>(1114735170)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:30 2005] Your ward absorbed 112 points of damage!<BR>(1114735170)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:30 2005] a Firerock giant hits YOU for 56 points of crushing damage.<BR></STRONG>(1114735171)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:31 2005] You start fighting.<BR>(1114735171)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:31 2005] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!<BR>(1114735171)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:31 2005] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!<BR>(1114735172)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:32 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>(1114735173)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:33 2005] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!<BR><STRONG>(1114735173)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:33 2005] Your ward absorbed 126 points of damage!<BR>(1114735173)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:33 2005] Your ward absorbed 126 points of damage!<BR>(1114735173)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:33 2005] a Firerock giant hits YOU for 64 points of crushing damage.<BR></STRONG>(1114735174)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:34 2005] YOU try to crush a Firerock giant, but a Firerock giant ripostes.<BR>(1114735174)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:34 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>(1114735175)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:35 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>(1114735176)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:36 2005] YOU hit a Firerock giant for 18 points of crushing damage.<BR>(1114735177)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:37 2005] A Firerock giant begins to gather strands of divine power!<BR>(1114735179)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005] You draw upon the ancestral powers of disease.<BR>(1114735179)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005] YOUR Miasma hits a Firerock giant for 37 points of disease damage.<BR>(1114735179)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005] A Firerock giant scratches Its arms and legs.<BR>(1114735179)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005] YOU try to crush a Firerock giant, but a Firerock giant parries.<BR>(1114735179)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005] a Firerock giant tries to smite YOU with Iniquity, but YOU resist.<BR>(1114735180)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:40 2005] You trigger a starter chain.<BR>(1114735180)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:40 2005] A Firerock giant gathers divine energy!<BR><STRONG>(1114735181)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:41 2005] The spiritual wards begin to fade.<BR></STRONG>(1114735182)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:42 2005] Your ward absorbed 200 points of damage!<BR>(1114735182)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:42 2005] a Firerock giant's Smite hits YOU for 160 points of divine damage.<BR>(1114735182)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:42 2005] You are struck with a smiting force!<BR>(1114735182)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:42 2005] YOUR Miasma hits a Firerock giant for 31 points of disease damage.<BR>(1114735183)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:43 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>(1114735183)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:43 2005] You strike A Firerock giant with a smiting force!<BR>(1114735183)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:43 2005] YOUR Smite hits a Firerock giant for 29 points of divine damage.<BR>(1114735183)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:43 2005] A Firerock giant is struck with a smiting force!<BR>(1114735183)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:43 2005] You triggered Divine Judgment.<BR>(1114735184)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:44 2005] YOU hit a Firerock giant for 18 points of crushing damage.<BR>(1114735185)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:45 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] You draw upon the ancestral powers of ice and snow.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOUR Cold Fire hits a Firerock giant for 61 points of cold damage.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] A Firerock giant shivers uncomfortably.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] You complete Divine Judgment.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOUR Divine Judgment hits a Firerock giant for 147 points of divine damage.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] A Firerock giant is struck with great force.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOUR Miasma hits a Firerock giant for 31 points of disease damage.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOU hit a Firerock giant for 11 points of crushing damage.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOUR Blessed Weapon hits a Firerock giant for 73 points of divine damage.<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] A Firerock giant is struck by an inspired weapon!<BR>(1114735186)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:46 2005] YOUR Maul hits a Firerock giant for 140 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1114735187)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:47 2005] a Firerock giant tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR><STRONG>(1114735187)[Thu Apr 28 17:39:47 2005] Your spectral skin falls away.<BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>oops cut log chunk off short....</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>17:39:56   The ancestral spirits around you dissipate.</STRONG></DIV>

[Banditman]

<P>What you are seeing is what we are calling spillover.</P> <P>Basically, when a hit exceeds the remaining power, the Ward takes as much of the damage as it can, and then the remaining portion is passed strait to the tank.  Any Wards under the one that broke will not take the blow.  However, SUBSEQUENT blows WILL be absorbed by any remaining Wards.</P> <P>This is something that has always happened.</P> <P> </P>

[Geilt]

Whats interesting is that the spillover was mitigated...this could be proof or at least something to run with absed on when wards expire and the tank gets hit? <div></div>

[Baccalarium]

<DIV>Notice that none of the wards expired due to damage.   They expired at the end of their 30 seconds.   I've always seen the message saying the ward expires/dissipates at the same time as the damage that caused it to expire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn't make sense to me that the same NPC attack should be absorbed twice and still hit me.   The giant didn't smite me three times at 17:39:29,  only once.    Thre first of the three wards didn't fade till 17:39:41.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I misunderstand what you're calling spill over,  but to me it just looks like a bug.   And one that should be fixed.  In a nomal battle the giant's smite would have been completely absorbed had I used a single WSS and not attempted to stack the other wards with it.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Baccalarium on <span class=date_text>05-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 AM</span>

[Banditman]

The more I look at that log the more I smell something . . . This log looks very doctored.  Note that every time the Ward gets hit there are two messages for the same damage ? There are other inconsistencies here as well.  I'm not sure what is wrong, but this log is incomplete at best. <strong> </strong><div></div>

[Mystiq]

<P>I've seen this double damage happen many times when stacking two or three wards, and I could really care less about logs to prove it because I know what I see and I don't make things up. There is definately something wrong with stacking wards. Exactly what it is is hard to put a finger on, but it is most assuredly not working the way we'd like and the way they should.</P> <P>From what I've seen, I'd be inclined to say that multiple wards tend to all absorb hits at the same time. For example if the warded tank gets hit for 600 damage, the base hit being around 300, I'd see Ancestral Aegis soak up 600 and Umbral Ritual absorb exactly 600 right after. The mob ain't hitting for 1,200 folks, there's something fishy going on. Two and sometimes even three wards can soak up the exact same single hit. That's messed up.</P>

[Loral]

<DIV>Question: can other Priest class stack their special heals? (Reactives and HoT) Never played another healer, so I don't know the answer. If not, then maybe Wards are not, in theory, supposed to stack... </DIV>

[CrymsonAnClov]

<P>I'm pretty sure the templars cast their group reactives then stack the single reactive on the tank.</P> <P>Then if you put an inquisitor in the same group, they can stack now 4 reactives on 1 target.</P>

[Stimp]

<P>You can stack cross-class priests healing abilities.  The best would seem to be the Druid and Cleric classes.  The Cleric reactives would heal the MT when he takes damage and extra damage would be cured over time with the druid regens.  Anything excess could be cleaned up with direct heals by either class.</P> <P>A druid and a shaman also work well together because the druid regen will heal damage even if the ward is up, making them complement each other well.</P> <P>The worst combo is the cleric and shaman because if the shaman has a ward up absorbing damage, the clerics reactives aren't used because the damage isn't making it through to the MT.  Now, at my current level of 49, this is not an issue as the ward is gone before the ward recast timer has cycled, but I did note this at lower levels when wards were still effective.</P>

[lge7]

<DIV>it does now..wards seem to be fixed didn't do a stat thing but i now can solo SOLO mobs np and when in PF stacking them seem to work i fight several battles with no ward then single ward then stacking ward and stacking ward worked the best.</DIV>

[jfo]

<P>druids can stack regens... in theory.</P> <P>as a fury, i can toss out the single target @168hp per tick ad3, plus the regen aspect of bloom @ 34hp, plus my single target trauma cure which goes off @ 40hp... giving me 250 something all told. it's not terrible... but those are endgame numbers as well. they all function on three second cycles.</P> <P>the group regen will stack with this, but it's a better taunt than any tank's got, by far. toss in another 64hp every three seconds. my 'feast' line with add an additional 98hp, but that's reliant on one of the nasties dying, so it's useless in a single target encounter.</P> <P>we also get two "it's hit the fan" heals, with regen components, but both are on 15 minute timers.</P> <P>it's all doable, but it's an insane amount of agro as well.</P> <p>Message Edited by jfood on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 PM</span>

[ChrisRay]

<DIV>This happens to my defiler too when I stack Everlings Cadaverous Ward and Spectral Guard so its definately not mystic specific. And it kind of sucks for sure...</DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div>I've noticed the double hit as well. It's funny I am reading this after training through lava storm with ancestral and umbral ritual up, and wondering why alot of the hits are double... this especially seems to be true of the first hit a mob makes on you. If I feel like it I'll dig through the log later and post it here, as I'm still training =P. PS- Furthermore, it didnt seem that spillover occured when ancestral went down and umbral ritual was still up. I'll see if I can log mob hits when ancestral goes down with umbral up. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:15 PM</span>

[Baccalarium]

<DIV>No I didn't doctor the log.  LOL at the thought of why I would or how I would think to make multiple copies of damage lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only doctoring is the adding of bold face to what I thought was most relevant.   The incompleteness is that I intended to copy all the way till the third ward faded and only copied till the second one did.   The time of the third ward fading was simply typed in at that point.  </DIV>

[BigDa]

<DIV>I haven't played my Mystic in a while, but I don't remember seeing a "We've fixed wards" update note.  The last update they got has then blocking some DoTs and the one before had them blocking more, but not all, specials, if I remember correctly.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wards still leak normal damage a little and specials damage a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did some testing ages back when they fixed all the shared timer bugs and had 4 wards running simultaneously.  My results on simple damage totals showed it does make a difference, but hinted at leaks not being 'quartered' by any means.  With wards being as unpredictable as they are with one up, it's pretty impossible to work out what's happening or going wrong with four up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My suspiscion is that the specials and normal damage going through are <EM>not</EM> having to make it past all the stacked wards at all and stacing wards will help, but is <EM>very</EM> inefficient on power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In response to the OP subject.  No, stacking wards doesn't 'work', but then, nor does using one ward - not as it perhaps should.</DIV>

[Xalibur]

<P>i have reported this issue already 2 months ago, but as the messages were PARTLY german noone cared <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Geilt]

I have also noticed the double damage message. I stopped stacking wards once i got ancestral ward. I was causing more damage, and the amount absorbed was unpredictable. Just Chain cast when you know one is about to run out =) And hope that it dissapears when your next one lands. <div></div>

[Spag]

<P>So has anyone verified that both wards are actually taking damage?  It may just be cosmetic.</P> <P>     If so can we verify that the wards are not simply splitting the damage evenly between them?  </P> <P> </P> <P>We need to know these things before we can go any further.  Atleast this way we will know what we are complaining about.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.  I am fighting the urge to delete my Mystic.  Could use some encouraging words ......</P>

[Talari]

<P><U>Mystics rock</U> Spagma ! :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Always look on the bright side of life... etc etc hehe</P> <P>Anganthyr, 33 Mystic</P> <P><EM><FONT size=1>P.s. Sorry bout the spam but he needed some encouraging words heh</FONT></EM></P>

[Dragonreal]

I've seen a thread before about htis and heard about hte whole shammys/clrs can stack their special heals, why can't druids? thing; ever since I saw the first posts about those issues, I was thinking... how can a ward stack at all? stacking heals as I understand it: cast two heals on a target and both heals heal simultaneously. Taking that definition in mind, has anyone thought that perhaps the wards ARE stacking correctly (by that definition)? ie 2 different wards warding at the same time.. which really isn't practical because wards don't heal, they prevent damage which means you really don't want wards that stack by the usual definition, but you don't want wards that will overwrite each other; I think the devs just screwed up the way in which the wards are stacking and made them stack the way drd and clr heals stack. The way I'd think you'd want them stacking is the same way that clr and shammy heals stack.. one won't kick in til the other has worn off; true, timers will continue running but that's about the only way I can think of that wards could practically stack with each other.

[highlighter]

If wards in fact are taking the same damage when stacking ,thus the double hit, it would be best to just cast the group ward since it can absorb more damage.  But with the long casting timer, that is just crazy and a waste of power.

[Mystiq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlighter wrote:<BR> If wards in fact are taking the same damage when stacking ,thus the double hit, it would be best to just cast the group ward since it can absorb more damage.  But with the long casting timer, that is just crazy and a waste of power.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is all correct. I throw up group ward every once in a while, on raids with lots of adds, but of course group ward drops just as fast as a single target ward would in those situations. I'd be more inclined to use group ward more often if I felt that it was half as useful as the other wards. Warding your entire group for 2k+ damage sounds great in theory...but does everyone get the ability to each block 2k damage before the timer expires? In reality, no. Once one person soaks up the total damage of their ward, it's gone for everyone. I use group ward because for whatever reason 3 or more of the group is getting attacked, or in the unlikely event a melee based AE is hitting the group, but damage doesn't get divided nice and clean among everyone, and that's the only way group ward in its current state would be worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eloora wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>....Warding your entire group for 2k+ damage sounds great in theory...but does everyone get the ability to each block 2k damage before the timer expires? In reality, no. Once one person soaks up the total damage of their ward, it's gone for everyone. I use group ward because for whatever reason 3 or more of the group is getting attacked, or in the unlikely event a melee based AE is hitting the group, but damage doesn't get divided nice and clean among everyone, and that's the only way group ward in its current state would be worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Am I reading this right, you are saying you want your ward to have and assigned HP/player pool?  Mind you it would not be 2k to each member it would be based on a 6 member group and would be 2000/6 = 333 points warded per player.  This is currently the problem with group regens.  They heal the same amount per player per tick no matter if the group is 2 person or 6 person.  Even then they cannot be used by a single player like a group ward or group reactive can be.  Trust me, you don't want that.  Of course if you are saying you want 2k per player, you are asking for a significant upgrade to your ward.  Wouldn't we all want our group specials to be 6x as powerful?</DIV>

[highlighter]

<DIV>When I first explained group wards to a warden friend of mine, he assumed it warded everyone for 1800.  After explaining that it could be soaked up by one person w/o mitigation, he came to the conclusion that it was as usless as our single target ward.</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>How did he figure that?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mind you I have both a Warden and a Mystic and can see from both points of view, and granted with no mitigation wards in general are useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Going on the assumption they will be fixed, the group ward can be used as a larger single target ward.  This cannot be done with the Warden group regen.  This makes the group regen even less useful than the group ward in its current state, nevermind once wards get fixed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only answer I can come up with for the question I posed is the fact that its no mitigation, not that it can be used by single target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[highlighter]

Going on the assumption of me saying that my group ward warded the party for 1800, he assumed that everyone got the 1800 damage resistance.  This would be much like how the regen would not be affected if one person would use an entire regen up, it affects the group.  With the 15s cast timer on the group ward, it would only be practical enough to be used as a prebuff before a normal pull.  I wasnt sure on the topic if Regens stacks, but if they do it would be much more effective than stacking wards which take double damage.  Seeing as how I dont play a warden I do not know for sure.

[Spag]

<P>Heh, then I will give you the info.  The group regen and the single target regen stack, but its efficiency is horrible, and much less than that of wards even.  If your tank is the only one taking damage and you stack the group with the single target, 84% of your group regen HP is wasted, on players that do not need it.  Its a divided pool, so each player gets a certain HP per tick whether they need it or not.  For it to be as efficient as wards are currently (with 0 mitigation) two or three group members would need to be damaged or taking damage, and that just gets them to the point of being as useless as wards are now.  If I want them to be somewhat mana efficient, 5 or 6 players in the group would have to be damaged or taking damage.  Even if all players are taking damage, the HP/second healing ratio is so low, its not even reliable.  The only time the group regens are ever worth casting is when time is not as big a facter as power, as in out of combat healing.  Like when the group gets hit by a damage trap.  So thats what, once a day maybe?  Even then if power is not a factor, the instant group heal is just as effective.</P> <P>We all know how bad wards are, what is sad is that the druid class group regens are actually worse than the shaman group wards currently.</P>

[Talari]

<P>Just curious...</P> <P>People here are always talking about "When wards get fixed"...  Well have SoE ever expressed anything to even hint that they are broken at all ? Have they ever said anything other than "Working as intended" when it comes to us Mystics ?</P> <P>If not...  what are we waiting for ? =/</P>

[Spag]

<P>They have not said anything at all.  That means they have not said they are working as intended.  To be honest, if they do come back and say working as intended, you will see a rush of players to the cancel your account option.  You cant give a class a spell thats 1/3rd as effective to comperable spells of the other 2 classes and call it equal.  Everyone that says "When they fix wards" are doing so out of faith in the system and SOE.  If SOE does not attempt to fix them at all, there will only be 2 viable priest classes.  I for one will strip down my mystic can delete the character, if not simply cancel my account.  Sure I have other characters that I like to play, but I will not continue to support a company that does not listen to its customers.  I know I am not the only one to feel this way.  </P> <P>Its pretty bad that we have seen some of the top level mystics leave the game because of the string of nerfs, without any fixes to the class.  </P>

[CrymsonAnClov]

Sad to see how desperate the shaman community is begging for fixes and amazing to see how much hope there still is out there. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>