Current Shaman issues are a BIG problem

[Redbeard-Verit]

<DIV>Hail and well met, friends and fellow Mystics. I'm a Mystic of 50 winters, descended from a long line of Shamans hailing from Firiona Vie. I've not posted to this forum before, but I've followed and enjoyed the provocative discussion for a long time (/waves to Umerr and Banditman). As leader of the guild <STRONG>Veritas</STRONG>, and mentor of several Shamans young and old in the service of our Queen, it falls upon me to track developments in the Shaman community. Up until very recently, there was nothing really extraordinary to deal with, mostly the typical class complaints, wish lists, and nerf-howling that occupies some of our more ... <EM>dramatic</EM> ... citizens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I ain't gonna sugar coat it, friends: all hell is breaking loose now. In the last 24 hours I've been notified by two shamans in our guild that they are retiring their characters or leaving the game to pursue something else, and the reasons are posted all over this forum. Are the devs actually listening? Are they going to have anything to say to us to adress the problems being reported? I list below the big perceived issues that I see. I say perceived, because I haven't yet seen parses or sufficient demonstrable evidence of these problems to be able to say that they're true. But the perceptions are there, and you know what they say: Perception is reality, and people quit games and stop paying monthly fees because of perception.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>1) Wards are <STRONG>useless</STRONG> or <EM><STRONG>worse</STRONG></EM>. Reports are now circulating widely throughout the fighter and healer community that wards pass unabsorbed damage <EM><STRONG>unmitigated</STRONG> </EM>and therefore actually increase the potential damage taken than if they'd not been cast at all. I'm told that tanks are asking Mystics to <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> ward them. And this is today, with the story just beginning to circulate. If this story spreads (whether verified or not) it won't be long before Shamans are routinely asked not to ward. There are other reports, that wards are dropping prematurely, that they don't scale, and so on. I don't like to play this game by the numbers and when I've heard these things I've asked the complainers to ask themselves 2 questions: are they having <STRONG>fun</STRONG> and <EM>are they getting the job done?</EM> But we're beyond that stage now, this is our class defining ability and to have it widely regarded as detrimental to gameplay is ... well it's fatal. And that's not fun no way, no how.</P> <P>2) Once again, Shamans find themselves regarded as 2nd class healers. We were third class in EQ1 and those of us who migrated from that game were encouraged by the promise of the archetype system that assured us that all healers classes would be equally effective. <EM><STRONG>But even if you discount the problems with our distinct, class-defining abilities</STRONG>,</EM> our instants are not on par with those of other healer classes because of longer recast timers. What exactly is the theory behind this inequity? Why do Fighters have to wonder if their Shaman is watching their health or afk?</P> <P>3) Haze, our biggest contribution to the team, has been nerfed to the point of nullification. The degree to which the skill debuffs were decreased is just ... astonishing. The nerfing of Avatar, our greatest buff, to limit its application to one target, is another head-scratcher.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So, you take a healer class whose defining ability is its wards and you make them useless or even damaging. But they can still function as healers (and I've continued doing so), but since our heals are a little slow by comparison (and that speed in getting heals off is inevitably perceived as a reflection on the caster, not the spell), there's less reason for a group to ask for a Mystic. But then you complete the picture by taking away the tools we once had to overcome these emerging perception problems, and what's left? It's no wonder that Mystics are losing faith and leaving to play something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm an optimistic fellow and I believe that the designers want to do everything they can to make this game enjoyable for everyone, and that they will. But I don't think they know about the effect some of their actions are having on the community, and my concern now is that they're acting in a vaccuum, unaware of the effects out here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I decided to add my voice to the call for some loving. Come on, SOE, give us at least a statement of direction for our class before you start bleeding off the best of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

[heronimous]

<DIV>Umm I have zero problem with wards and in fact use them in place of most heals. If people are finding they have problems with them I would question the user and not the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards absorb a set amount of damage. They drop when that level is met. Period. they are not "dropping early" they are simply reaching their capacity for damage absorbtion. This is also why some seem to last longer then others in fights. Variations on damage absorbtion make each different in duration when being hit. You can trade off fast casting for lower absorbtion if you want or stack them to mitigate certain types of damage but pretty much that is how they work and from what I have read, are intended to work. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our usefullness well tell you what, pick a mob, any mob and sic a tank on it. Slow that puppy and weak it. Then do it agian with the same mob but do not slow and waek it and see what happens. My husband plays a tank and we most often work as a duo. I have watched him try to solo things we easily kill when I slow them and it is funny. The expectation of obvious results is only apparent when you remove the factor you are questioning. In this case, the shaman. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one am happy with my character, her buffs rock, her dots are fun and I am usefull and helpful in any group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had wanted to be a healer btw I would have been a cleric. Expecting a class such as a shaman to be as good a healer as a cleric is inane. It is like saying "well they told me I could solo why do I not get DDs like a wizzy?" The logic behind the arguement is flawed. We are a class of slowers, buffers and DoTers that happen to heal. Read your manual we do heal but that is not all we do. If that is what you wanted I think you should have chosen to be a cleric which is listed as being primarily a healer. </DIV>

[Redbeard-Verit]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>heronimous says:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If I had wanted to be a healer btw I would have been a cleric. Expecting a class such as a shaman to be as good a healer as a cleric is inane. It is like saying "well they told me I could solo why do I not get DDs like a wizzy?" The logic behind the arguement is flawed. We are a class of slowers, buffers and DoTers that happen to heal. Read your manual we do heal but that is not all we do. If that is what you wanted I think you should have chosen to be a cleric which is listed as being primarily a healer.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This statement is so wrong in so many ways, I'm not sure where to begin, and I'm tempted to conclude that you're just trolling to provoke a reaction. But I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and respond as though I believed you really mean what you say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can call it inane, but that's exactly how the game was designed to operate. A fundamental premise of the archetype system as that all subclasses were intended to be equally effective in performing their class function in a group. That means that all clerics, shamans and druids were intended to be equally effective as functioning healers for their group. All brawlers, warriors and crusaders were intended to be equally effective as functioning tanks for their groups. Your statement that someone wanting to be a healer should have chosen a cleric instead of a shaman is a relic of the EQ1 world, not this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[aprilstor]

<P>I have to agree on the wards being useless...unless Im throwing one on a caster who has taken aggro they dont do anything at all. I noticed this about level 28 and it has gotten progressively worse through all my following levels (am now 45 and holding until they fix us or my subscription expires)</P> <P>When I rely on wards alone my paladin husband ends up just healing himself to keep up with damage. This is not the way our class should work.</P> <P>Give us back our haze line our fix our wards...that simple...or mystics will be an extinct class and nothing more than lore among the bards</P>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div>What you fail to mention in your second point is that we have the fastest casting times on our heals (at least the strong ones). Both Healing Ritual and Enlightened Healing cast in one second; this is signifigantly quicker then the other priests. While the refresh is on the long side, I have no problems with this. I like being the first heal to land, and I've saved both groups and raids because of it. Whether the ratios add up perfectly or not (cast vs recast) between the classes, I don't have the knowledge to comment upon. I would pay the price of less efficiency over time to be able to cast these heals that fast, though, if it were up to me. I wholeheartedly agree with your other points. While I could agree haze could be considered overpowered before, the effectiveness being reduced hit us that much harder because of the ward issues. I don't think that reducing it as far as they did was necessary. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:47 PM</span>

[Banditman]

<P>When you consider the overall recycle time of our direct heals you find that they are in fact longer than that of the other Priests.</P> <P>Our cast is 1 second, true enough, but our recast is 13 seconds.  14 seconds total.</P> <P>Other Priests have a cast time of 3 seconds and a recast of 9 seconds.  12 seconds total.</P> <P> </P> <P>Additionally, our heals are smaller in value numerically than that of the other Priests.  These two factors in conjunction push us FAR below the raw healing power of the other Priests.</P> <P>The overall effectiveness of a healer can be boiled down to two questions:</P> <P>1.  How fast can you heal it over time.</P> <P>2.  How long can you keep it up.</P> <P>Those two questions are measured in two formulas:</P> <P>1.  Hit Points healed per second</P> <P>2.  Hit Points healed per point of mana spent</P> <P> </P> <P>When you analyze those two factors, you will find that Mystics are so far below the standards set by other Priests it's a bloody wonder we can do anything.</P>

[highlighter]

<DIV> <P>I use to be on the, "Well, are you having fun? If not pick another class cause I love my mystic" bandwagon.  And well, that has gotten me and other mystics nowhere.</P> <P>I got passed the fact that wards did not work, slow heals and that it took me more power to keep a tank alive compared to other priests.  The one tool I had in my possession that would help out my 3 man party, Haze, made up for the lack of everything else as a shaman healer.  It made a noticeable difference when we would take on Yellow ^^ mobs.  When I wasn't paying attention to the spell timer bar, I could always tell when it would go down because the tank would start getting hit for massive damage again.  When the spell would resist, usually on the pull, I would have to spam all three of my major heals Spiritual Healing, Healing Ritual (AdIII), and Spiritual Replenishment (I think these are the ones, Im not online atm so im not sure <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), and hope the tank lives through the 13s it takes for these to refresh.  I have stopped using my Wards from Lv 32 on, and only use them in emergencies (I got tired of casting them and then thinking, "where'd it go? Its not in my maintained spell window.  Did I actually cast it?")  .  For a healing class that is supposed to block damage as our main way to "heal", we are pretty poor at it.</P> <P>Then loe and behold, I wake up one morning, decide to check out the Mystic forums to find my Haze line has been nerfed.  At first I wasnt sure what to think.  I went online and saw that it only decreased combat abilities by 6.  I thought that was pretty low but unsure of the prenerf number, I had to check the forums.  Wow.... What a drastic difference. 26 down to 6. Thats not a nerf, but an Uber nerf.  It went from being an OK spell (single target only), down to a mangled corpse.  So logging back on, I checked the update notes, and nothing, ALL WEEKEND, nothing.  No mention of why this happened.  Then on Monday we get a half-baked response.  First it was mentioned that it was only an update only the test servers... well thats not right, as far as I know Im not on the test server.  Then we get another response, The spell is considered too powerful, and one single line is added (I think its funny how the only abilities that are being changed is Mystic) in the LU#7 Update notes.  Well, actually, I dont find it funny, in fact its insulting.  Wards have been broken since the start (If you dont agree just read the description, "heals a small amount at dissipation". Does it? No.) which has never been acknowledged by any of the Dev's or even looked into.  Heck!  IT even says it in the Prima (Outdated since before the game went into beta) Game Guide.</P> <P>I dont claim to know what goes on at Lv 50, but there is still 49 Lv's that the Haze spell is necessary.  Why not make the spell at least unusable on Epic mobs like so many other spells.  Saying that a spell is over powered, implement that change before any of the other priest balancing is just extremely poor judgment.  Your singling out a subclass that is already weak, chop of a leg, and then expect them to walk without giving them a crutch.</P> <P>Well, Im not gonna quit the game for now, I still have friends that will group with me so I never have to go looking for a group.  But if the class only gets worse from Lv 41 I just might consider it.</P></DIV>

[Bumba]

<DIV>Cant really add anything to OP. 5 stared.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im a fury, but also a GL thats why Im concerned here on mystic forums cause I too risk losing members due to recent nerfs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im behind you all on this one.</DIV>

[Thatdumbg]

<div></div><div></div>One thing that should be kept in mind on the overall effectiveness of a healer is being able to heal fast enough, as well. All the healing in the world does jack for you if your tank (or caster, or fellow healer, or whatever) drops. It doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen, no matter the skill of the player(s), the level of the mobs, raiding or grouping. That being said, I like being the one that can counter-balance that eventuality. Whether it is a serious part of the day-to-day picture or not, my opinion won't change. I'd like to see faster refresh times, or better heals, don't get me wrong. But I LIKE having that fast-casting heal; meaning I wouldn't want quicker refreshes if it meant I had to have longer cast times. That was the main point of my last post. Of course, if you have a paladin (or a couple other classes that have oh crap spells) around, this is kinda nullifed as well. But there have been fights for me and mine, that whether we should have been trying them or not with our group make-ups, where the difference has mattered and allowed us success. (edited to further articulate a point) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class="date_text">04-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Thatdumbguy on <span class=date_text>04-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:57 AM</span>

[Stimp]

<P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=167709" target=_blank><SPAN>heronimous</SPAN></A> , what level are you?  At level 49 I can honestly say wards are worthless.  I have cast them on a tank while waiting for my heals to become available again and the 1000+ ward is gone in less than a second.  The ward is gone before I can even recast it and I am still left waiting for the heals to be available again.  Also, your comment about great debuffs must have been pre-nerf.  My ward example is not a one time occurance.  I can repeat it again and again.  The long recast timers on mystic spells was probably a by product of wards functioning correctly.  Why do you need to heal if wards are absorbing damage?  But since wards are useless and our debuffs aren't going to make a difference anymore, we are left trying to heal with slow, power hungry heals as our only function.</P> <P>Also, on the point of avatar.  It's only a 12% haste...granted the 36 str is nice, but single target?  Plus, It has not increased in potency since I gained it (level 47?).  Also, there was no change in states going from app1 to adept1.  I was thinking it would at least move the % haste up a few points. </P>

[mikewa]

<DIV> <P>This is balancing!  Mystics just got screwed!  I'm lvl 50, our wards are a joke they get shredded through in one hit, our group slow is pathetic 10% slow to critters that hit in the 100's-1000's?  so instead of doing 10000 dmg per minute they do 9000  ooo big woop, our heals can't come close to keeping up with the dmg done by mob's at this lvl, the only thing we had that made all of this possible was our HAZE line of spells and they just got nerfed, we won't even be able to kill solo mobs that aren't green to us. </P> <P> </P> <DIV>Rant over, we're F***ed!</DIV></DIV>

[aprilstor]

<DIV>Will be interesting to see if any new people come to the boards after reading today's patch updates. Perhaps some who havnt played much this last week but were anticipating the patch. What a pleasant surprise for them. Yay! Live update 7 is the best ever! (but not so great as the prelive update eh?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS Grumble Grumble Ive begun to hate this game, I should have known better after SWG <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cyanrav]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=4>I've waited patiently, and quietly, and hoped that the Devs would fix the Mystic class. However, this "fix" is my death knell. I'm appalled and amazed, does no one on the Dev team PLAY a Mystic? Apparently not, I along with the more vocal (and some not so vocal) of the mystics that are disgusted and annoyed with these “changes” am going to be canceling my subscription. I sincerely hope, that someone at Sony, sees what is happening, and fixes this situation. Maybe I’ll come back if they do. Maybe. Six months is enough time to correct these issues, however, we are getting mild fixes and then a turn around on huge nerfs. I won’t bleat that it’s not fair, after all, it is Sony’s game “Your in our world now”. Well Sony, I’m going to vote on your world with my feet (and my money). Good luck to you all that are staying and trying to get Sony to help you. I believe, you’ll need all the help you can get.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=4>Cyanravyn</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=4>Retired Mystic of Toxx as of April 20, 2005</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>

[Redbeard-Verit]

<P>Ulfgar,</P> <P>You are quite correct to note the point about our <EM><STRONG>faster</STRONG> </EM>initial cast times. But the preservation of the premise of the archetype system (that all healers be equally effective in their own way) is critical and I don't want to lose sight of that. The comparability of instants really cannot be looked at independently of the whole issue of overall healing effectivness. While the cycle time differences for instants between Templars and Mystics may seem negligible to some, when you consider that Templars can stack six reactives in addition to those instants, the whole issue of overall healing effectiveness takes on a whole different look, and <STRONG><EM>that's</EM> </STRONG>the issue I'm raising in my 2nd point. If wards become effective, then I suspect the balancing difference in our instants then will become less of an issue.</P> <P>BTW, /salute, good to see you here.</P> <P> </P>

[Thatdumbg]

I can completely agree with that point. I just wanted to attempt to shift more focus onto the wards, as that issue is the worst complication of the others. <div></div>

[Erithorn]

* bows to Redbeard *Hello fellow Mystic... I read your post with great interest, and the reply immediately following... (after that the..... dramatic... repliers chimed in so I stopped reading :p )I am only a Mystic of 28 Spirits, so I definitely cannot speak for what will come to me in the future... but I can speak for what I have seen up to nowIf I may quote one small piece of your initial post...------------------" I don't like to play this game by the numbers and when I've heard these things I've asked the complainers to ask themselves 2 questions: are they having fun and are they getting the job done? "-------------------I have never played this game, nor the original one by the numbers.... I play for fun, adventure and companionship in experiences. To this point I must say that YES, I am have a lot of fun.... and YES they are getting the job done.I can be a back up healer, or I can be a main healer as the situation dictates. I can heal, ward, slow, weaken, dot, and nuke.... and melee well in bear form. I can solo yellow cons, and green ^^ cons as I wish. My equipment is adequate, mostly obtained through quests and drops.. though I have purchased a couple of pieces along the way.I believe that most of the "dramatic" posters are only found on this site, but are not limited to the Mystic sub-class alone... they can be found in every class forum here, and they all feel that their avatar's class is broken in some way, and that SOE must fix it NOW or else.I believe that these folk are very concerned with being the "superman" that ever group will desire in the endgame. I also believe that these folk will never be happy, and the "balance" they seek is non-existant as each singular person has his own view of what that balance should be.People, this is a game, and if you are not enjoying the game then stop playing and get another one to try. Make a new character and try that one out. Perhaps you will find one that is working for you... We need to stop crying that "the game is cheating, and I cannot win"... and just play.Personally, I have no complaints with my character, nor have I had any voiced to me in the lands. To me and many, many others, everything is.... WORKING AS INTENDED !Erithorn SilverleafMystic of OasisKempers Arcanum

[Stimp]

To the above poster, repost about mystics working as intended when you hit the 40's and tell me how you feel about the class then.

[Erithorn]

Aye... this a I can do.... but you had best check back in mid-summer as I do tend to make an effort to see most of what each level has to offer. I should be in my 40's about July I believe.* hmmmm... wonders if there will be any Mystics still about then, with the suggested current rate of their retirement.... *<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Erithorn Silverleaf

[Banditman]

Every single Mystic here will agree . . . the problems dont even START until the mid to late 20's. These boards are FILLED with people JUST LIKE YOU.  They didn't understand because they weren't there yet.  As you follow their posts over the course of their character's growth, they slowly begin to realize . . . "*$%#&!?  the Templar has 85% mana and is nuking and I have to gasp for breath healing the same tank in the same content." NO ONE here played the game "by the numbers" UNTIL they started to feel inadequate to the tasks they were faced with.  Then, in order to figure out WHY they were feeling inadequate, the numbers were parsed and analyzed. Our feelings of problems within the Class were just that . . . feelings.  Many shared them.  Upon collecting and examining the evidence, it became apparent WHY we felt that way. I personally made it to L29 before I visited the forums.  I was finding it increasingly hard to perform my duty as a MH and I was hoping to find some advice from more advanced Mystics on what I might do to correct my issues.  As it turns out, many Mystics felt as I did.  By L30 and 31 I was beginning to collect data to better understand my shortcomings.  My question "Why am I failing?".  The numbers told me what my senses could not. <div></div>

[Cori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erithorn wrote:<BR>* hmmmm... wonders if there will be any Mystics still about then, with the suggested current rate of their retirement.... *<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I don’t know about others but I can tell you I’m retiring mine to bring an alt up to my primary (too bad all my tradeskilling is on my mystic…).</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I played a Cleric in EQ1 to 70 from beta and switched over to EQ2 so I’ve been around.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I know how healing works in groups and out.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have to say that the way they’ve set up Mystics has me underwhelmed.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><FONT face=Verdana size=2>It is very discouraging to try to be the healer for a group and to scrape by until a Templar joins and takes over those duties.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The Templar doesn’t need help maintaining the group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What do I bring?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Slow it a little; weaken it a little; then add a minute amout of melee damage?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sorry, that’s not enough for me and it feels like I’m letting my group down.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffcc00>Those that say that </FONT></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffcc00>Mystics aren’t broken either haven’t played them or haven’t leveled them to a sufficient level to notice the inequities.</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P><BR>

[Redbeard-Verit]

<P>There are always dramatic overstatements on all sides of these issues and that's ok because I think it just means that people have a lot of passion on these topics and that's good for the game. I don't want to see it become nothing more than a dry discussion and analysis of minute and subtle differences over numbers from a parse. We live these characters and we care about them, and it makes me feel good to know that other people care enough about them to get steamed up and post their thoughts, sometimes angrily!</P> <P>But come on devs, give us some indication of where we're headed here. I realize you have tons to do, and every class has its issues and demands. But the point of my message was that our problems are starting to have a real tangible effect on our game and our game world, and without some indication from you of where this is going, we may see some irrevocable losses that are going to affect a lot of people's fun and enjoyment. This is a fairly reasoned and respectable discussion, flame-free and on topic. Don't you think we deserve some comment to let us know where we're headed?</P> <P>Thanks,</P>

[Banditman]

You might wanna check out the thread in the Combat Arts, Spells and Abilities forum. Ten pages long, one *extremely* weak response from a Dev. <div></div>

[ken80]

<DIV>It is true erithorn. You really only get an inkling at level 28. As you increase in levels it heads significantly downhill from there.  By 40 you're so jaded, you wonder why you're not rerolling.</DIV>

[Ibis]

you do not have good proof that damage after a ward expires, is unmitigated.  links to sources please and your own proof if you're going to be leading the pack.  I understand that shamans have issues and I will agree that your class needs adjustments, they are coming after all, but thus far reports of unmitigated damage after a ward is not proven. <div></div>

[Mattim]

<blockquote><hr>Ibishi wrote:you do not have good proof that damage after a ward expires, is unmitigated. links to sources please and your own proof if you're going to be leading the pack. I understand that shamans have issues and I will agree that your class needs adjustments, they are coming after all, but thus far reports of unmitigated damage after a ward is not proven. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Whether it's proveable or not is really beside the point. If enough non-mystics believe it to be so it will effect the Mystic community directly and indirectly. I think anyone who observes others can readily attest that shamans have it harder than other healing classes after this change. It's important to note that the general opinion shifts slower than segments of the whole do, but once that general concensus starts to move toward the negative you'll have a huge push against using shamans in your party as healers.I play the game for the fun of playing as well. Although, I feel as a healer it's my responsibility to know the numbers because it's going to directly effect my knowledge of efficiency. An educated healer is always an asset to their party. To know which heals to cast when, and for what circumstances is important. Unfortunately, numbers rule all in that part of the game.Banditman said it well though. There really is a point for alot of us where you begin to wonder about the class. For me that was early in the 30s, but then it got alot better as the content started to blue out and I could use wards again. Starting in the 40s and now in my mid 40s there very few tools that are useful in our lineup. As has been stated, wards are useless. Direct heals were our only saving graze when used in conjunction with haze, which has been nerfed.And, it's not as if a shaman cannot do their job, it's that they can't do it without expending alot of extra effort. Effort you'd expect to spend on a challanging encounter. After this change, it's impossible with my shaman to take on anything that's above the tank in level.. I just can't heal, I've tried and I've incurred alot of debt doing it. I tried swapping back to a more ward-centric setup.. but wards really are useless, they block so little damage for the power consumed and our 'upgrade' in teh 40s is barely an upgrade from the level 24 version. I suppose if it was good at 24, it should be good at 42.. right? right? *sigh*If you go through the whole breadth of our spells and compare there are glaring issues with upgrades. It's pretty consistent that the only upgrade you'll get is a buff, App1 buffs are actually better than AppIVs of the previous version in the line. Every other spell we get usually takes a level or more to get 'better' and then it usually has a gross increase in power consumption, even though your power pool hasn't grown much to compensate.I'm *not* having fun anymore on my Mystic. I've explored playstyle, and approached it with an open mind. I've explored spell lineups and changed alot of how I do things, still no dice. The reason I chose a mystic, the challange of being a preventative healer just doesn't jive with the last 20 levels of the class. The response from all the public faces at SoE on this issue have only served to dishearten me and have me considering other games. It's really too bad that it was so necessary to screw an entire sub-class that was at least partially viable before the haze change. The real killer issue is that they don't plan to fix the problem for several weeks or months, it could reasonable be another six months before we see all their changes cemented down. This stinks, too bad I don't have the heart to play all their linear content again on another character.

[heronimous]

<P>I am not trolling, I simply play a mystic and happen to enjoy my class. The fact that I do not post a lot does not belie the fact that I do play the class and simply disagree with you. </P> <P>I also stand by what I said, if healing was your main goal in choosing a class you should have been a cleric. SImple as that. Do not come here and expect me to side with you when you complain you can not heal a group. Shaman were not designed to do that nor should that have been an expectation of the class. Mystics are not primary healers, we are simply a class that can heal. </P> <P>And as far as I can tell wards make a huge difference for me and my husband. We primarily play as a duo, my mystic and his bezerker and have found wards to be extremly useful and effective. Haze still works very well for us as a duo too and while it has been altered it is still an effective spell as far as I am concerned. I can not quote you numbers on the wards becuase I for one do not parse the damage being taken by the ward. I did that in EQ1, pullng logs, parsing CH rotations, etc and you know what it got me? Nada except burnout. But since I sit in the same room and play with my husband I can tell you that from what I see on his screen, they make a huge difference. He likes them and when I mentioned that others seemed to take exception to their use was shocked and confused as to why. They do not absorb 100% of the damage he takes but they do mitigate a large portion of it. Might I suggest that any tank who tells you not to ward them is simply foolish and does not understand the nature or intent of the spell? Personally if I had a tank say that to me I would run, fast and find myself a new tank. Why? Simply becuase I would not want to play with anyone who is so dense as to turn down a damage mitigation effect (even a small one) as my primary melee. Scary. </P>

[DobermanChampion]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=167709" target=top><SPAN><FONT size=2>heronimous</FONT></SPAN></A><BR></DIV> <DIV>"Shaman were not designed to do that nor should that have been an expectation of the class. Mystics are not primary healers, we are simply a class that can heal. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree with your opinion,  Eq2 is not Eq1. We were told by Soe specifically that archtypes Shaman, Clerics, Druids all were able to do their job equally in regard to game play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you please provide proof where a soe employee or any eq2 game description on archtypes told us  we are not suppose to be primary main healers, that we are  just a class that can heal ?? I tried to look for that quote and I cannot find it anywhere to justify your statement.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DobermanChampion on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 PM</span>

[heronimous]

<P>You do your job. You slow, dot and buff. However that does not seem to be enough, you want the best of all worlds. You want to be able to do all that AND be able to heal like a cleric. The world is about give and takes. You (and I) took a class with many other abilities outside healing and yet you still insist you should be able to heal like a cleric.  This may not be a popular attitude but I did not become a shaman to be a primary healer. If that is what I wanted I would have been a cleric and so should have you. It is as simple as that, you wanted it all and now that you are finding that maybe you can not have it all, you are unhappy.</P> <P>I like this class and it plays well. I have no problems with some changes to it. I am simply the person who rather rarely posts on these boards becuase I for one, like many I think, have no problems with my character.</P> <P>Mostly I think the bad reception to my posts are in regards to the fact that I am willing to stand up and say these things. Most people only speak out when they have complaints, I for one step up and say when I have none. Bad reactions to people who disagree with statements that you find valid are pretty common. That does not mean however that I will stop saying what I am saying nor does it mean I am wrong.</P>

[Merrygr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> heronimous wrote:<BR> <P>You do your job. You slow, dot and buff. However that does not seem to be enough, you want the best of all worlds. You want to be able to do all that AND be able to heal like a cleric. The world is about give and takes. You (and I) took a class with many other abilities outside healing and yet you still insist you should be able to heal like a cleric.  This may not be a popular attitude but I did not become a shaman to be a primary healer. If that is what I wanted I would have been a cleric and so should have you. It is as simple as that, you wanted it all and now that you are finding that maybe you can not have it all, you are unhappy.</P> <P>[Snip]<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Regardless of the fact that slows/dots/debuffs in their current shape has VERY little to do with the outcome of the fight, you are saying that we should have known in advance that SOE were not stating the truth when they said that ALL priests would be able to handle the role of the healer. You are saying that we should have known that just because they said a mystic or a defiler would be roughly equal to a templar we should have assumed that that was not true and picked a cleric.</P> <P>All of us that are complaining about the current inbalance when it comes to healing are doing that becaus we were supposed to be equal this time around. This is NOT EQ1.</P> <P>You are basing your comments on your belief that mystics/defilers were never suposed to be main healers. The rest of us listened to what SOE said and feel that we have been short changed.</P> <P>I'm sure that everone has different expectations for a class. In yuor case the expectations matches the class you picked. That is truly wonderful for you. But for a lot of us the description of the mystic does not match what we have and we are disapointed.</P> <P>I can only speak for myself when I say that I do not need high dps or a game breaking ability to debuff. All I ask is that I'm given the same ability to keep a group alive as a cleric. In addition to that I want enough other abilities to feel that I'm not doing my job exactly as a cleric but that I'm unique in my own way.</P>

[Banditman]

Wow.  Just wow. Do you realize that your DPS is crap?  Yea, you read it first here.  It's crap.  At L49 I can chug along doing my 50 DPS . . . which MIGHT be a third of what a Fighter does.  Let alone what a Mage or Scout can do.  DoT or don't, no one will notice.  A Fighter can swing a good 2H weapon one time and do more damage than the entire DoT will in 30 seconds. Do you realize that the overall effect of Slow is a decrease in DPS of 8 to 12 percent over the course of an encounter?  Yep.  8 to 12 percent, provided you get no resists, provided that you can instantly Slow every mob in the encounter, provided that it never lapses, provided that you use your STR debuff as well.  That's an awful lot of if for very little effect in my book.  Certainly nothing worth the differences between us and the stronger Priests. Do you realize that other Classes have buffs that are just as good, and perhaps superior to, ours?  Yea, that's right.  As good or better.  Clerics get a single target buff line that uses half the CP of our single target buff line, and has superior stats.  I can go on for quite some time if you so desire. Wake up and smell the coffee. <div></div>

[Stimp]

<P>"I also stand by what I said, if healing was your main goal in choosing a class you should have been a cleric. SImple as that. Do not come here and expect me to side with you when you complain you can not heal a group. Shaman were not designed to do that nor should that have been an expectation of the class. Mystics are not primary healers, we are simply a class that can heal." </P> <P>Like many others here, I bought into the "Balanced Archtype" blurb and it bit me in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  I spent a lot of time trying to decided which way to go, be a gimped secondary healer like my druid in EQ1 or go with a templar.  I decided to go with a shaman for 2 reasons, one they were desirable in EQ1 and they were suppose to be equivalent in healing to the other archtypes.</P> <P>As far as wards being effective, I'd like to know what level you are.  You never bothered to mention it.  If you are 30+, I'd like to know your secret...or what the con of the mobs you are fighting.</P>

[Silda]

<span><blockquote><hr>heronimous wrote:<div></div> <p> You (and I) took a class with many other abilities outside healing and yet you still insist you should be able to heal like a cleric.  </p><hr></blockquote>Actually Sony insisted that all priests (shaman, druids, clerics) would heal equally well. Removed your head from your nether orifice please. </span><div></div>

[heronimous]

<DIV>Excuse me but it is agian what I see is people who wanted to be able to heal like a cleric unhappy that they cannot do so. If anyone needs a little fresh air I would think it would be you. I am not a primary healer. I was told I would be able to heal and I can. I can keep a group of people up against multiple yellow/orange mobs with spread agro. I can keep my tank up in a group with yellow heroic mobs as our target. It is not easy but I can do it. Do I do it as well as a cleric? No. Did I expect to? No. Why? Becuase I AM NOT A  CLERIC! Get that through your heads.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>You are not clerics, you are shaman.</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can heal and if you work at it, you can do it well. I listen to all this and think " wow, how come I can do this and they cannot." Basically I think it comes down to having expectations about the class and playing into those instead of working with what you have.  I had no expectations coming into being a shaman in EQ2 and I do very well with what I have. I looked at what I had and how well it worked and made some decisions regrading me and my character. I stepped up and took some iniative on my own and did not wander around waiting for someone else to "fix" the "problems" with my class. I took heals for my upgrades when they came along becuase I knew I was lacking in that departement. I tend to upgrade my heals first before other spells becuase I know that I need help there. I use my wards becuase, even as it has been pointed out here ad nauseam that they do not work as people think they should, (an opinion I do not share and have made clear I think) they are damage mitigation. And I do fine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cannot keep up with what I can do, I suggest you get out of the way. Becuase I seem to be able to do the things you talk about not being able to. Maybe becuase instead of talking about it I actully got in game and worked the problems to find a solution, and that is the difference between us. </DIV>

[Stimp]

And still no mention of your level.  If you thinks wards are even semi-useful, you are still in your 20's or very early 30's.

[DobermanChampion]

<DIV>heronimous, how about responding to what people are saying instead of what you want them to be saying? No one is advocating people cannot be main healers and get the job done, but that we have a harder time in doing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I main heal all the time in PF for groups, but it is hard for me and this is with tank's ranging from 50 to 44.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using my manastone almost couple  times a fight on linked encounters to try to get enough mana for another heal when tank is in the yellow is not my idea of being equal to cleric's and druid's as was promised by soe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are near the bottom of the heal class tree, We dont shine in nothing, debuffs,slows, specialty heals (i.e Wards, Reactives or Hots), instant heals</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However we were promised that by soe all archtypes will heal the same.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mishra 45 Level Mystic, Kithicor</DIV><p>Message Edited by DobermanChampion on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Silda]

Maybe since his mind is still stuck in EQ1 he should go back /shrug <div></div>

[Banditman]

Im guessing very early 20's.  Who's taking action on this? <div></div>

[Spag]

I am betting mid teens.  My wards were great back then,  Oh I long for the day....

[Redbeard-Verit]

<DIV>Yes, heronimous, you <STRONG>are </STRONG>trolling. I wasn't sure at first, I thought perhaps you were just greatly misinformed about the role Shamans are supposed to play in EQ2, and were basing your opinions on the EQ1 model that reflects your stated views. But the truth is, your insistence on ignoring everyone's citation of the official premise of the archetype system that all Priest archetypes (including Shaman) were designed to be equally effective healers, and your refusal to even address those comments, make your little game here obvious. Are you having fun?</DIV>