Ancestral Ward Adept III dropping way to fast

[Sens]

<DIV>I'm level 31 now and I'm beginning to experience for myself what all the complaints about wards at higher levels are all about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just upgraded to adept iii ancestral ward and was doing a quest with some friends last night. We were killing groups of green, green ^, and green ^^ mobs (they were blue to my tank). I was having to chain cast between my adept 3 ancestral ward and my adept 3 spectral ward in order to keep my ward active during many fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My frustration level is rising fast with this class, not to mention the game as a whole.</DIV>

[bou]

I hear your pain friend, mystics could use some love pronto.Shared ward/heal timers, 0 AC wards and almost impossible to land debuffs on high lvl mobs really makes us [Removed for Content] sometimes.

[BigDa]

<DIV>/hug the OP.  I know very well what you are going through.  I'm sorely tempted to start another class or give up all together for a few months until SOE get their [Removed for Content] together.  *sigh*</DIV>

[Wzierbovs]

Hmm; at level 48, the slow, dots, and wards I'm casting still seem quite all right with the occasional resists on equivalent level mobs. Say on a level 48 mob, the slow-line of spell I cast still gets resisted about 20-30% of the time.

[re]

<DIV>sens, what's your group make up, how are you handling these encounter, etc.???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problems being main/only healer in my groups, and I never ever have to double ward.</DIV>

[BigDa]

<DIV>It happens all the time to me.  An example the other day was fighting blue ^^ Clay Guardians in Varsoon.  Basically, until the guardians were out of power, my tanks HPs would free-fall and the wards would poof real quick, but even when they last a while it makes no difference whatsoever because the specials shoot straight past them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then and since I have to spam instant heals until the target has lost most of its power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I Slow straight away (in fact I general pull with a Slow and the pally takes the aggro off me asap *I* am a better ward than my wards! hehe)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards don't really figure much in my tactics these days - they just aren't effective or reliable.</DIV>

[Nemi]

<DIV>Shaman wards work best on Brawler tanks, my monk with a Shaman and I can easily tank and hold aggro on ++ mobs 5 levels above me. Wards are wasted on plate tanks unfortunately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Myros]

<DIV>See the defiler area ... we have discovered a bug in spectral guard (our equiv of yours) that is causing our wards with "on break" effects to go down way to early. It could be your ward types are doing the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Myros]

<DIV>I posted soem screen shots of this bug happening:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1951" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1951</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we can verifiy this is the same bug affecting Mystic wards and get a combined campaign of bug reports going maybe we can get this fixed asap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

[Banditman]

<DIV>Mystics don't have on break effects any more, it was considered "overpowering" and removed in beta.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still not sure what we got in return to compensate.</DIV>

[Ko]

<DIV>My normal Group layout is a Gaurdian / Templar / Mystic (me). We add whoever is looking for Group normally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards are practially not even a main spell for me anymore. I would only ward at the most dire times. But other than that, the Templar Simply puts her Re-Active heal on the Gaurdian and we are fine. I find it extremely unfair that Our wards drop so quickly when hit by a Special Move.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consider this :</DIV> <DIV>I ward the Gaurdian.</DIV> <DIV>A Monster hits the Gaurdian with a Special Move. The Blow Eats up the entire Ward, and lands about 50-100 Dmg on the Tank.</DIV> <DIV>Now my ward is gone and I need to recast.</DIV> <DIV>Lets say I used Ancestral Ward Adebt 1. That absorbs about 450 or so. Maybe less, havent been able to determine it, sicne I havent been hit in ages. (good thank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>So the Tank has taken 100 Clean Dmg and my Spell is gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take the Templar :</DIV> <DIV>The Templar Reactive Heales the Tank and the Fight Starts.</DIV> <DIV>The Monster Uses the same Special Move. The blow hits the Tank for 550(no ward to abosrb-im taking into account that ward uses the persons AC).</DIV> <DIV>The Reactive heal heals for 150.</DIV> <DIV>So the Tank has taken 400 clean dmg.</DIV> <DIV>Now the Templars Re-active heal is still there. Healign with every normal hit the tank is taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 2 spells might have exactly the same amount of *Health* in them. but the Re-active heal just goes so much further.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of the day , I let the templar heal, and I dot/Debuff. Since Warding is very Consuming on Mana when you have to chain Ward. and normally a Debuff lands and its there for a minute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not seriously used Wards from lvl 25-28.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only imagine how painfull wards must be post-30.</DIV>

[Banditman]

<DIV>Actually, you have quite a few misunderstandings about Wards evidenced there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, Wards do NOT take into account the AC of the target.  Wards are a zero AC entity.  So, a hit that might start out at 400 HP would hit a Ward for the full 400, but only hit a Guardian for 200.  This aspect has been well documented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Additionally, Wards do not have the same HP value as Reactives and Regens.  The generally accepted numbers for the first tier of specialty heals are 403 HP for Wards, 480 HP for Regens, 510 points for Reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you combine your two misunderstandings, and take into account that most AC mitigation tanks have AC mitigation of around 50%, you quickly begin to realize why Clerics and Druids seem to get more "bang for their buck" when it comes to healing.</DIV>

[Kalam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics don't have on break effects any more, it was considered "overpowering" and removed in beta.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still not sure what we got in return to compensate.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Just to clarify Mystics never had an "on break" effect to our Wards like Defilers do.  What was removed was Wards healing the remaining portion of the unused Ward as a direct heal to the Warded person if it expired due to time.</P> <P> </P>

[Karla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <DIV>/hug the OP.  I know very well what you are going through.  I'm sorely tempted to start another class or give up all together for a few months until SOE get their [Removed for Content] together.  *sigh*</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> This explains why I have a 24 druid and 21 brawler.  as soon as my shaman is fixed ill go back.

[Wolfherz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sens wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm level 31 now and I'm beginning to experience for myself what all the complaints about wards at higher levels are all about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just upgraded to adept iii ancestral ward and was doing a quest with some friends last night. We were killing groups of green, green ^, and green ^^ mobs (they were blue to my tank). I was having to chain cast between my adept 3 ancestral ward and my adept 3 spectral ward in order to keep my ward active during many fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My frustration level is rising fast with this class, not to mention the game as a whole.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Did you use all your debuffs ? At 37 my mystic can keep a group of 5 alive just fine as solo healer fighting mobs 3 levels higher than us.</P> <P>Just the other day we went to visit the Obelisk of Lost Souls and proceeded to clean the area around the obelisk killing level 40 night bloods and the guardian drake at the entrance. It is always about the right mixture of all of our spells - do not rely just on wards.</P>

[Banditman]

<DIV>Debuffs have very little effect on the damage output of a single mob, let alone a group of mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's been pretty well proven that KH reduces the total DPS of one mob by about 13 percent.  However, if you have two mobs, it reduces the DPS of the encounter by only 6.5 percent.  Obviously, the more mobs you have, the less effective KH is.</DIV>

[Wolfherz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Debuffs have very little effect on the damage output of a single mob, let alone a group of mobs.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You cannot be serious. The tank knows usually before the mystic when Fallacy dropped. The debuffs drop the mobs by 1 or 2 levels in terms of their attack, which makes a HUGE difference in the amount of damage the tank receives.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>It's been pretty well proven that KH reduces the total DPS of one mob by about 13 percent.  However, if you have two mobs, it reduces the DPS of the encounter by only 6.5 percent.  Obviously, the more mobs you have, the less effective KH is.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>How about putting KH on both of the mobs ? Also the more mobs are in an encounter the weaker their attack in general. On top of that in the early 30s you get group debuffs and group slows.<BR>

[Banditman]

<DIV>Tell ya what, you log some fights in the same manner I did in my "By the numbers" posts and I'll show you the reality.  Since I cannot cast those spells, I must therefore rely on you to do so.  The spells I have access to are quite clearly not of great relevance statistically.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, you could try to debuff all the encounter members.  It's a little hard to do one at a time.  Sure, we do get those group versions, which are weaker versions of the single target variants.  Again, I don't have access to those spells or logs to parse of their effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For anyone who wants to log things for me to parse, here's a breakdown of how to do it in order to keep things as "constant" as possible.  This is a copy of a message sent to someone who might be willing to help out with tests on higher level mobs and spells than I can currently test.  Whether that comes to fruition or not, these methods will keep things consistent, providing an "apples to apples" comparison.  If we want to test "group" things, I can easily modify the methodology to allow testing of that nature and still maintain the consistency needed for accurate results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My method is fairly simple.<BR><BR>The first step is to select two mobs. What you want is one mob that is "trivial" - green or blue - that has a "fairly" hard time being a threat to you. Locate a second mob that is not trivial - ideally one that is a level higher than you, or at worst even. Use only solo con mobs, as that is what SOE deems "appropriate" for a single player to handle.<BR><BR>Once you've selected your mobs, its time to collect the data.<BR><BR>Pull the mob. Since my debuffs don't do anything to combat abilities, specials and spells I simply sit there doing nothing until the mob runs out of power. I do not know if higher level debuffs have any effect on combat abilities (I doubt it), but I'm fairly confident that resists are all that matter to spells. Anyway, I drain the mob of power by letting it beat on me.<BR><BR>Now, mob out of power. I put a mark in my log at this point by /saying "Mob is out of power". At this point, it's important to STOP using Wards if you have been using them to "survive" the mob running out of power. Wards will throw off your numbers since they are currently bugged (a point of debate, perhaps "inconsistent" might be more appropriate). This lets me know where to start the baseline measurement. I then let the mob beat on me for 3 or 4 minutes to establish it's swings per second, hit/miss ratio, min/max hits and average hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once the baseline is done I drop another line in the log with /say "Starting to use KH now". I then keep whatever debuff I'm testing running constantly on the mob for 3 or 4 minutes. I'll do this for each debuff I'm testing.<BR><BR>It might be beneficial to test stacked debuffs as well. Personally, I feel I can mathematically predict the effects of stacked debuffs, but there are some elements in the community who need it spelled out in big block letters. Im currently working on a new parse of Delusion stacked with Keening Haze to debunk a doubter.<BR><BR>Sometimes you may have to break the encounter and let the mob reset when your power runs low, this is especially true when working against yellow cons.<BR><BR>Something else I don't have is numbers on the higher level Wards. I'm currently developing the numbers for Ancestral Ward as I recently upgraded it, but anything higher I have no way of parsing.<BR><BR>Oh, don't forget to turn logging on. It would really suck to do all that and forget to log it. You'll only make that mistake once however. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0><BR><BR>Cut out the part of your log relevant to the testing and email it to me at [email protected] . . . my ISP has some serious spam filters that might catch it, so let me know here when you mail it so I can watch for it to get thrown in my Spam folder.<BR><BR>If you have any questions you can PM me here or use the above email address, your choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd love to see some <STRONG>real data</STRONG> indicating that we have some truly encounter altering debuffs.  However, at this point, I have not seen any <STRONG>real data</STRONG> that even suggests this.  Some folks have said that they exist, but many have said they do not.  I prefer logged, verifiable data to anecdotal observations.  So bring it.</DIV>

[TexKS]

<DIV>"you log some fights in the same manner I did in my "By the numbers" posts and I'll show you the reality"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's your problem.  I play by "the fun" not "by the numbers" and my shammy rocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently, level 27, and last night with a lvl 28 guardian tank, chanter, and 3 DPS's, we fought lvl 30-33 mobs and I RARELY used wards!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd haze, debuff x2, dot x2 then ward and top off hp's with a heal. And I was done for the fight!  Ward lasted most of the time until the mob was dead, or would drop shortly before the mob died.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If haze got resisted, I would have to ward, heal, ward, then try haze again, if it stuck, back to the routine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards work awsome with ALL your slows and debuffs on.  They suck when your slows and debuffs get resisted.   Get all your slows and debuffs to adept3 like I have and you will rarely get a resists, but you will have to scramble a bit if you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade and use all your spells and wards will do their job fine.</DIV>

[disru]

an enchanter makes a big difference, try playing without one as a sole healer.

[Banditman]

<DIV>If you are playing for fun, great!</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I have said it a million times:  If you enjoy your Shaman as is, if it works for you in the situations you find yourself in, then by all means, play and have fun.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>These discussions are not for you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Any changes that these discussion may bring won't affect you negatively in any way.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>However, there are some rather obvious problems with some of the tools Shaman are given.  If you wish to debate those points with us then you need to bring statistical evidence to back your views.  Anyone can come here as say "It's fine for me, if it doesn't work for you then you must just suck".  You've proven nothing but that you are capable of trolling.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Bring some evidence or ignore the discussion.  It's rather simple really.</FONT></DIV>