Ward Put To The Test

[Edyil]

<DIV> <DIV>During the average week, I group regularly with 2 others. I am a 23 Pally.  I group with a 23 Mystic and a 22 Wizard.  We have been having some real problems with 2up blues, whites and yellows.  After each fight, we were all out of power and I was usually near death.  We usually won.  But it was rediculously hard for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yesterday I got sick of it and decided to try something new.  I upgraded all my armor and equipped a shield (added 350AC + the shield blocks).  We scrapped the Wards and went with him straight up healing while I backup healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end result is that by using my armor to mittigate damage and using our crappy heals, we faired noticably better than using the Wards.  Sure we were low on power fairly often.  But I never had that "Oh **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, this is going to be close" feeling during any of the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Further, because my Mystic buddy didnt have to chain Ward me, he was able to fully utilize all of his dots and slows and every mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your Wards be seriously broken, friends.  I hope you guys can get fixed.</DIV></DIV>

[Zidab]

<DIV>/agree /sign</DIV>

[Karla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>During the average week, I group regularly with 2 others. I am a 23 Pally.  I group with a 23 Mystic and a 22 Wizard.  We have been having some real problems with 2up blues, whites and yellows.  After each fight, we were all out of power and I was usually near death.  We usually won.  But it was rediculously hard for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yesterday I got sick of it and decided to try something new.  I upgraded all my armor and equipped a shield (added 350AC + the shield blocks).  We scrapped the Wards and went with him straight up healing while I backup healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end result is that by using my armor to mittigate damage and using our crappy heals, we faired noticably better than using the Wards.  Sure we were low on power fairly often.  But I never had that "Oh **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, this is going to be close" feeling during any of the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Further, because my Mystic buddy didnt have to chain Ward me, he was able to fully utilize all of his dots and slows and every mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your Wards be seriously broken, friends.  I hope you guys can get fixed.</DIV></DIV> <P>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> </P> <P>While i agree that wards need some work, i have to point out again that shaman are not supposed to be main healers, or atleast thats how I see it.  that is how it was in eq1 and that is how it is here.  I am not sure if that is how the devs are planing it or not. </P> <P> shaman are meant to debuff and slow then ward.  If they do this there wards last a hell of alot longer.  Also A shaman from ym point of view is not supposed to chain ward, but supposed to let his tank well tank.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Karlace on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Muad`D]

<DIV>The reason you ran low on power with your group set up is because the wizard was the only real DPS you had for tough mobs. Mystics sure aren't DPS and neither are paladins. I am getting sick of seeing thread after thread all over the place to the effects of "Oh NOZ!!! MY WARDS ARE TEH BROKEN!!!" I was in a group last night in Thundering Steppes, it was me (24 mystic) as healer, 26 monk tank, 24 assassin, and 24 illusionist and we were exclusively fighting yellow ^^ and white ^^ mobs and not once did i have a problem with running out of power. App III of Spectral Ward + Keening Haze = my wards usually run out of time before they are damaged off. If you are fighting mobs appropriate for your group, then you won't have problems.</DIV>

[Zuul]

<DIV> <DIV>Karlace wrote:</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>While i agree that wards need some work, i have to point out again that shaman are not supposed to be main healers, or atleast thats how I see it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This mind set is what causes a lot of people grief. EQ2  was developed with balancing taking place at the arch-type level. Certain sub-class's will have situational benefits...but there isn't "a best healer" as in the Cleric from EQ1 (Which btw, you show me a cleric that can keep a group alive in the Tier4 PoP without some manner of slow).</FONT></P> <P>All arch-types will perform their main function equally. Priest will keep their party alive, fighters will tank & dps, mages will dps & crowd control, scouts will dps & utility functions. </P> <P>We are intended to do the same thing, just in a different manner. If there is a something working against their intention then they will fix it in some fashion or another. We might not always like how or when, but eventually it happens. </P></DIV>

[Saraphi]

<DIV>Ok first off, shamans can be the primary healer of a group. People need to break out of the cleric mold of eq1 because that doesnt exsist any more. As a level 19 shammy I have 5 direct heals and one group heal, one group ward, one high hp absorbing ward, and my regular ward. Thats plenty of healing to go around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your problem is not only, as someone else pointed out, that you were trying to do very tough mobs with three people, but that you failed realize that upgrading your armor would have made the impact, not the use of wards. Wards are extremely mana efficent, and unless fighting casters that do a ton of nuking damage, they absorb the damage you take. Your gear plays a huge role. The shammy may also have no idea how to combine his wards and his insta heals along with the debuffs? Is he slowing every mob? Has he upgraded his heals?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly I find I do fine in a group as a solo healer provided we go against content thats balanced for us. If i have 3 people in my group and trying to take on ^^ yellows well of course its going to be hard...</DIV>

[Banditman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While i agree that wards need some work, i have to point out again that shaman are not supposed to be main healers, or atleast thats how I see it.  that is how it was in eq1 and that is how it is here.  I am not sure if that is how the devs are planing it or not. </P> <P> shaman are meant to debuff and slow then ward.  If they do this there wards last a hell of alot longer.  Also A shaman from ym point of view is not supposed to chain ward, but supposed to let his tank well tank.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Karlace on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>NO.  H(*&@ NO.  ONE THOUSAND TIMES NO!</P> <P>That is not at ALL what was sold with EQ2.  That is EQLive mentality.  In EQ2, all PRIESTS are intended to heal equally.  If they can't, the game is BROKEN.</P> <P>I don't know if Wards are broken.  I suspect they are, but I don't have, nor have I seen posted, conclusive data concerning this.  Once someone coughs up a statistically sound analysis, the debate can begin.</P>

[Edyil]

<DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Muad'Dib wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason you ran low on power with your group set up is because the wizard was the only real DPS you had for tough mobs. Mystics sure aren't DPS and neither are paladins. I am getting sick of seeing thread after thread all over the place to the effects of "Oh NOZ!!! MY WARDS ARE TEH BROKEN!!!" I was in a group last night in Thundering Steppes, it was me (24 mystic) as healer, 26 monk tank, 24 assassin, and 24 illusionist and we were exclusively fighting yellow ^^ and white ^^ mobs and not once did i have a problem with running out of power. App III of Spectral Ward + Keening Haze = my wards usually run out of time before they are damaged off. If you are fighting mobs appropriate for your group, then you won't have problems.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Sure, add enough DPS and you wont even need a healer.  But you, like so many other mouthy folks, are ignoring the bigger picture.  All healers ARE created equal.  That is why there is NO pvp.  They are supposed to balance first and then worry about pvp.  But the Mystic Ward is slackin.  Someone like you might not notice, however.</P> <P>I bet the other Mystics sure are sick and tired of people like you always saying "Oh NOZ!!  MY WARDS ARE DA BEST!!" when they seriously need work.... which is obvious to anyone that actually plays their class with any sort of skill.</P>

[Nnath]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Muad`Dib wrote:<BR> <DIV>...it was me (24 mystic) as healer, <FONT color=#ff6633>26 monk tank</FONT>, 24 assassin, and 24 illusionist and we were exclusively fighting yellow ^^ and white ^^ mobs and not once did i have a problem with running out of power. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd suggest the reason you didn't have any power issues was not only having more DPS than the original poster, but you had a tank <STRONG>2 levels</STRONG> higher than the rest of you.  To him, you were fighting low yellows, whites and blues.  Two levels make a pretty big difference in the 20s and it is a healer's dream to have a higher level tank in the group.  Not to mention he was a monk, probably the best class for our wards to be effective on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the original poster, heals are for high AC tanks the way things are designed for now.  Should that design be changed is a different discussion that requires CLASS balancing, not spell (ward/HoT/reactive) balacing.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nnathos on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[IsaacMorningst]

<blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<DIV><DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>Muad'Dib wrote:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The reason you ran low on power with your group set up is because the wizard was the only real DPS you had for tough mobs. Mystics sure aren't DPS and neither are paladins. I am getting sick of seeing thread after thread all over the place to the effects of "Oh NOZ!!! MY WARDS ARE TEH BROKEN!!!" I was in a group last night in Thundering Steppes, it was me (24 mystic) as healer, 26 monk tank, 24 assassin, and 24 illusionist and we were exclusively fighting yellow ^^ and white ^^ mobs and not once did i have a problem with running out of power. App III of Spectral Ward + Keening Haze = my wards usually run out of time before they are damaged off. If you are fighting mobs appropriate for your group, then you won't have problems.</DIV><DIV><HR></DIV></DIV><P>Sure, add enough DPS and you wont even need a healer. But you, like so many other mouthy folks, are ignoring the bigger picture. All healers ARE created equal. That is why there is NO pvp. They are supposed to balance first and then worry about pvp. But the Mystic Ward is slackin. Someone like you might not notice, however.</P><P>I bet the other Mystics sure are sick and tired of people like you always saying "Oh NOZ!! MY WARDS ARE DA BEST!!" when they seriously need work.... which is obvious to anyone that actually plays their class with any sort of skill.</P><hr></blockquote>Do you even play a mystic/shaman? Just wondering since you said you were a level 23 paladin. Unless you are actually playing the class, how would you know?Sorry, but I know a lot of people who don't know how to play their own class. If you're here complaining about the wards <i><b>someone else</b></i> were using on you and saying they must be broken, and then flame someone else who apparently knows how to play their class while acknowledging potential deficits with group compositions, then you have another thing coming. Maybe your friend should be the one posting here so that others can critique his methods and give positive feedback so that the next time you go out, you don't run into a repeat situation.

[Sens]

<DIV>I feel my wards are actually over powered to a degree. They're definately not lacking in any way. I fight off and on with two groups. The tank in my second group always fights with a templar but every chance he gets to have me in the group he goes on and on about how happy he is to have my wards and how much my wards are helping. Frankly it's a bit much and I worry that the templar doesn't feel as useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I did some tests, I always debuff early in the fights but this time I let the ward drop and stay down for longer periods of time. Well guess what... the templar's heals were keeping up with the damage a lot better. It was my debuffs that were making the biggest difference. I further tested this by not debuffing and just trying to keep my wards up. Well this time the wards fell faster than my reuse timer and the templar needed to do more work to keep up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mystic's wards aren't broken... they just need to be combined with the debuffs to be as effective as everyone wants them to be.</DIV>

[Edyil]

<DIV>I think some of you folks are missing the point here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of the group make up, it is <STRONG>more</STRONG> efficient for the Mystic to heal a Pally equipped with level-appropriate armor with heals rather than wards. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That by definition is a flaw with the Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try it for yourselves rather than defend a broken class defining ability.  Read the initial post again and see how this is inately a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS:  Nobody is complaining.  I play with RL friends and will regardless of whether they play a mystic or something else.  But I would rather see you folks get fixed if at all possible.</DIV>

[Peri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>I bet the other Mystics sure are sick and tired of people like you always saying "Oh NOZ!!  MY WARDS ARE DA BEST!!" when they seriously need work.... which is obvious to anyone that actually plays their class with any sort of skill.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>as of level 29, wards still seem to work fine for me.  a good shaman debuffs his targets as much as he can.  doing this makes wards last infinitely longer.  Slow is not the only debuff you have.  We have debuffs that decrease stength and stamina too...  Use them all, you might be surprised.</DIV>

[Mystiq]

<DIV>At level 41 it is absolutely not efficient at all to straight up direct heal a high AC tank instead of using a combination of heals/wards, and it hasn't been for some time. Mystic heals tend to be high in power cost compared to at least Templar heals, and much more power than wards cost. I may be in a different position than some of you, being higher level and having a tank with a LOT of hitpoints, so I dunno.  More hp's means my higher numbers wards are my best bet, whether they're "broken" or not.</DIV> <DIV>I also have not found a plethora of adepts for my heals/wards either. I agree that wards are not broken but need some work, perhaps an overhaul. Whether this will happen, and when, is a mystery.</DIV>

[Darkemo]

<DIV>I'm sorry, I don't agree with you.  I've never been in a situation where it has been more efficient for me to straight out heal than to use a ward/heal combo.  Of course, I don't chain ward either.  I will usually ward my tank before the pull to give him some breathing room so he's not half health when he gets back to camp, and it keeps aggro off of me.  By the time the ward drops he's set up and wailing away on his target.  After a second or two to make sure he's got aggro, I start debuffing.  When I'm done with that, its about time for another ward and a heal.  Then its time for DoT's and DD's.  If someone else in the party gets aggro, I'll throw up a group ward until the tank gets things back under control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if I had been straight healing, I would have healed the tank as soon as he got back to the group from the pull.  I would get aggro.  Now I have to heal myself, probably more than once until the tank got aggro back.  Then I would have to immediately heal the tank again, probably/possibly getting aggro again.  There has been no time for debuffs, no DoT's or DD's.  </DIV> <DIV>If I get one heal fizzle it may mean the difference between life and death.  With a ward, I've got at least one extra chance to cast that fizzled heal spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing I have seen to indicate that wards are "not working right" is that the mobs seem to be doing maximum damage to the wards (which has been discussed in another thread), in other words the wards are not taking into account the person's damage mitigation.  However, this may only be textual and not actual in the damage message, because all of my wards usually time out before damaging out.</DIV>

[Tamq]

<DIV>Maybe Ive just grown into my role.. as I played a Shaman for 4 years. But.. I have never seen myself as a top notch healer.</DIV> <DIV>My criterias for a char that is fun for me: Debuffs, Slows, Dots, Heals.</DIV> <DIV>If one of them is missing on a char.. I will not have fun. Doesnt matter how good the char can heal dot or debuff.. for as long as the char can do it.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Back to topic.</DIV> <DIV>Its a combination of all your skills that makes you a good char.</DIV> <DIV><BR>I usually group with guildmates: 23 Guardian, 21 Swashbuckler, 21 Druid (my husband)..sometimes we have a Paladin or Cleric.. or both or 2 Pallys.. depending on who is online.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I slap a ward on my Tank as soon as I see his health dropping a bubb.. which happens quite often on those orange / yellow ^^ cons.</DIV> <DIV>I will keep the mob slowed and debuffed for as long as my powerpool allows me. So my main role is: Ward, slows, debuff and heal if really neccessary.</DIV> <DIV>If my husband doesnt feel like grouping, it gets a bit trickier..but still doable. The mob stays slowed,  and usually due to me having the heal agro alone, I will have to keep up group wards for those agro switching beasts.. as I said.. its trickier but it works fine for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My husband and me went on a white con ^^ skeleton last night.. and we got that woahh this will not end good feeling.. but we did it. To be honest.. I wont duo those again *laughs* the higher we get in lvl ..the more we need the DPS to keep up with heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum it down: Use all of your potential not just a part of it .. et voila: Happy Mystic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BigDa]

<DIV>At level 25ish.  An ideal sequence for me with a good meat shield against a tough-ish monster: -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell MT to hold</DIV> <DIV>Ward MT (Pre-Fight)</DIV> <DIV>Wait a few seconds for power regen</DIV> <DIV>Tell MT to engage</DIV> <DIV>Slow target</DIV> <DIV>DeBuff 2</DIV> <DIV>Trigger HO</DIV> <DIV>Quick Cast DoT (completes HO starter if you're lucky)</DIV> <DIV>Slow Cast DoT (HO triggers if you're lucky)</DIV> <DIV>Ward</DIV> <DIV>Heal (if necessary)</DIV> <DIV>DeBuff 3</DIV> <DIV>DeBuff 4</DIV> <DIV>Trigger HO</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Nuke (completes HO starter if you're very lucky)</DIV> <DIV>Nuke (HO triggers if you're lucky)</DIV> <DIV>Ward</DIV> <DIV>Heal (if necessary)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Trigger HO</DIV> <DIV>Quick Cast DoT (completes HO starter if you're lucky)</DIV> <DIV>Slow Cast DoT (HO triggers if you're lucky)</DIV> <DIV>ReDo DeBuffs if necessary....etc....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards are underpowered?  Well, that depends really.  They are different.  I played a Templar in Beta to 23rd level and it was a good healer, but I wouldn't say 'better'.  Mystics have more to do, I think.  It's really important to get the tank to understand you need to Ward him (or even the whole party) BEFORE they pull, else you throw a whole level of effectiveness out of the window.  It's like not letting a scout get behind your target, otherwise (well, maybe not that bad, but you know what I mean).  If you do that, while the tank builds aggro in the time your ward affords you, you SLOW.  This is ESSENTIAL <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Again, if you don't slow, you through your effectiveness out of the window.  Now DoTs.  You can do a lot of power efficient damage with these and a quicker fight = less damage.  Once you have achieved the pre-fight wards and done the slowing and DoTs, you then simply have to throw up all your debuffs (depending on how tought the target is) and blend in additional Wards and Heals and HOs and redo stuff as it drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not simple, but it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing.  It would be much better to DECREASE the effectiveness of Wards, BUT have the damage mitigation happen AFTER armor.... please, devs....</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Wilhelm]

<DIV>Last night we checked out Zek mines and Runnyeye. Group was at 1st 30 guardian 30 templar 28 druid 29 pally 28 mystic (me). We were doing fine doing 37 singles and we did one 36^^. We then ran into Mr Uber 37^^ Serveyor guy and got wiped but we had him down to about 5%. After Runnyeye dynamic changed a bit, 30 guardian 30 templar 29 druid 29 shaman 26 guardian and 30 wizzy. We chain pulled from 31^^ to 36^^ with no problem. When we would get 35-36 4 mob groups I cant slow and I have to pretty much chain ward until we get at least one if not two mobs down. The 36^^ I very rarely can slow. I stack my wards melee a bit (If no barage or assault). I honestly dont think my ward is broken. If we are doing way high lvl stuff my job can get slightly boring. With the 36^^ I would come out of those fights with 2- 2 1/2 bubs of power. Never had a problem. I gotta say I love being a mystic. If they revamp my ward cool but I see a few other things I would like fixed before my ward. </DIV>

[Edyil]

<DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess when SOE said that all healers are equal but different, Mystics didnt take them seriously.  If you folks are self-delegating yourself to backup healers and support roles, even though SOE has stated they are prime healers, then fine.  Thats just the way its gonna be.</DIV>

[Wilhelm]

<DIV>Well in my case I dont think I am a back up healer. I very rarely heal, I am support character to a large degree but when in my regular group I am not a healer at all. I dont get the feeling that I am looked at as a secondary healer either. I get numerous tells a day asking me to group with people as the healer. I personally am quite content with my class right now. I would like to see spell drops fixed before I think my class needs to be fixed. </DIV>

[joshie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sens wrote:<BR> <DIV>I feel my wards are actually over powered to a degree. They're definately not lacking in any way. I fight off and on with two groups. The tank in my second group always fights with a templar but every chance he gets to have me in the group he goes on and on about how happy he is to have my wards and how much my wards are helping. Frankly it's a bit much and I worry that the templar doesn't feel as useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I did some tests, I always debuff early in the fights but this time I let the ward drop and stay down for longer periods of time. Well guess what... the templar's heals were keeping up with the damage a lot better. It was my debuffs that were making the biggest difference. I further tested this by not debuffing and just trying to keep my wards up. Well this time the wards fell faster than my reuse timer and the templar needed to do more work to keep up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mystic's wards aren't broken... they just need to be combined with the debuffs to be as effective as everyone wants them to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Quoting this for emphasis.  With Keening Haze, Delusion, and Ancestral Ward, I currently feel overpowered.  Add in a talented Illusionist and my group of average level 31 can take on level 37-38 group encounters rather effortlessly with me (level 31 Mystic) as the sole healer.</P><p>Message Edited by joshie on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 AM</span>

[se]

I really enjoy playing my mystic. I am not complaining or threatening to stop playing my class or any such nonesense. I just see the current situation as not what SOE intended.Unfortunately for this sort of thing people's opinions of how things seemed to them don't really mean much without some sort of number parsing/crunching alongside the equivalent cleric/druid spells. If you are interested in the numbers they are currently in the other post about this subject in this forum.The problem as stated in the other thread is that our wards are not equally efficient as the other priest classes heals. From the very start the intention was to make all 3 branches of priests equally efficient at healing. Some would obviously shine in certain situations over others but they could all 3 heal equally efficient on your average situation.The problem escalates as you gain in levels. Yep you may be getting by fine just now but a cleric or druid line would be more efficient. I imagine in the higher levels the difference will be rather large as the difference has increased greatly from the teens to the 20's.The only change that needs to be made to make everything equal would be to make wards prevent damage after it has been mitigated by the tanks ac. That's everything in a nutshell. I believe that is a reasonable thing to ask.

[kerev]

This experiment would be more useful if you did the intermediate test of using your new equipment and the Shaman's wards, rather than only doing new equipment + direct heals.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>During the average week, I group regularly with 2 others. I am a 23 Pally.  I group with a 23 Mystic and a 22 Wizard.  We have been having some real problems with 2up blues, whites and yellows.  After each fight, we were all out of power and I was usually near death.  We usually won.  But it was rediculously hard for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yesterday I got sick of it and decided to try something new.  I upgraded all my armor and equipped a shield (added 350AC + the shield blocks).  We scrapped the Wards and went with him straight up healing while I backup healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end result is that by using my armor to mittigate damage and using our crappy heals, we faired noticably better than using the Wards.  Sure we were low on power fairly often.  But I never had that "Oh **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, this is going to be close" feeling during any of the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Further, because my Mystic buddy didnt have to chain Ward me, he was able to fully utilize all of his dots and slows and every mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your Wards be seriously broken, friends.  I hope you guys can get fixed.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[ogg]

<blockquote><hr>kereven wrote:This experiment would be more useful if you did the intermediate test of using your new equipment and the Shaman's wards, rather than only doing new equipment + direct heals.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Edyil wrote:<BR><DIV><DIV>During the average week, I group regularly with 2 others. I am a 23 Pally. I group with a 23 Mystic and a 22 Wizard. We have been having some real problems with 2up blues, whites and yellows. After each fight, we were all out of power and I was usually near death. We usually won. But it was rediculously hard for us.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So yesterday I got sick of it and decided to try something new. I upgraded all my armor and equipped a shield (added 350AC + the shield blocks). We scrapped the Wards and went with him straight up healing while I backup healed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The end result is that by using my armor to mittigate damage and using our crappy heals, we faired noticably better than using the Wards. Sure we were low on power fairly often. But I never had that "Oh **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, this is going to be close" feeling during any of the fights.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Further, because my Mystic buddy didnt have to chain Ward me, he was able to fully utilize all of his dots and slows and every mob.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Your Wards be seriously broken, friends. I hope you guys can get fixed.</DIV></DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><hr></blockquote>I was just thinking the same thing - did you try suggesting the Mystic use debuffs, wards, and direct heals combined with your new armor and healing?In this game armor and level make a HUGE difference, so it's going to be really difficult to accurately compare priest class healing ability. For now, at level 22, I have zero problem as sole healer in a group of 20-24 players killing yellow++ and orange++ mobs, so I don't feel underpowered at all. This is at Spectral Ward Ap3, Delusion Ap1, and Wailing Haze Ap3. I just upgraded Spectral Ward to Ad3 and Wailing Haze to Ad1, which should make things even easier.I won't even get into how much we rock when you can convince the group to let the monk tank and have the plate tank keep intervene (or equivalent) up on him.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[FelixDomesticus]

<blockquote><hr>Karlace wrote:<P>While i agree that wards need some work, i have to point out again that shaman are not supposed to be main healers, or atleast thats how I see it.  that is how it was in eq1 and that is how it is here.  I am not sure if that is how the devs are planing it or not. </P><P> shaman are meant to debuff and slow then ward.  If they do this there wards last a hell of alot longer.  Also A shaman from ym point of view is not supposed to chain ward, but supposed to let his tank well tank.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>While you may thing so, developers have very clearly stated that all priest sub-classes are equal in healing power. Based on that shaman IS main healer of the group. And if he cannot do his job, devs should to changes to his spells.

[Fae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While i agree that wards need some work, i have to point out again that shaman are not supposed to be main healers, or atleast thats how I see it.  that is how it was in eq1 and that is how it is here.  I am not sure if that is how the devs are planing it or not. </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Karlace on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:30 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Outrageous. Like has been said for years by Sony themselves:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <UL> <LI><STRONG>The idea is this: you don't have to worry about picking a class you like only to discover 50 levels later that your choice makes you unwanted. If you're a fighter, you can tank for a group; if you're a priest, you can heal for a group; and so on. This is the beauty of an archetype system.</STRONG>  - Moorgard</LI></UL></UL> <P>Obviously, shamans need to be able to keep up, and we can't.</P>

[bou]

<blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<DIV><DIV>During the average week, I group regularly with 2 others. I am a 23 Pally. I group with a 23 Mystic and a 22 Wizard. We have been having some real problems with 2up blues, whites and yellows. After each fight, we were all out of power and I was usually near death. We usually won. But it was rediculously hard for us.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So yesterday I got sick of it and decided to try something new. I upgraded all my armor and equipped a shield (added 350AC + the shield blocks). We scrapped the Wards and went with him straight up healing while I backup healed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The end result is that by using my armor to mittigate damage and using our crappy heals, we faired noticably better than using the Wards. Sure we were low on power fairly often. But I never had that "Oh **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, this is going to be close" feeling during any of the fights.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Further, because my Mystic buddy didnt have to chain Ward me, he was able to fully utilize all of his dots and slows and every mob.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Your Wards be seriously broken, friends. I hope you guys can get fixed.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>It was the armor that made the difference, not switching from warding to healing. If you can't keep up with wards+heal combined you can't possibly do it with just heals, thats pretty easy to figure out.The tank I usually groups with upgraded his armor a while ago and the difference was amazing. We could easy do the mobs we had a hard time with before and even do mobs one or two lvls higher. I as a mystic was using the same technique all along with wards combined with debuffs and dots so I know it was the armor that made the differnce.Pure chaincasting wards does NOT work, you have to use all your skills as a mystic, as you should with any class.

[Edyil]

<DIV>A couple Mystics noted in this thread that armor makes a difference when Wards are used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That, of course, is not the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our group is on the verge of hitting 26.  Since I originally posted this, we still dont use wards (I will occasionally ward myself during a pull) and continue with a straight healing.  Its working great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The new slow he got recently made a huge difference.  Its a great debuff.  I'm temped to have us try the Ward tactic again, though its be noted many times that slow has no bearing on specials.  But it might be an interesting test to try again and compare it with our straight heal tactic.  Now that we have done it for several levels straight (healing only), it might provide more insight.</DIV>

[bou]

<blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<DIV>A couple Mystics noted in this thread that armor makes a difference when Wards are used.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That, of course, is not the case.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Our group is on the verge of hitting 26. Since I originally posted this, we still dont use wards (I will occasionally ward myself during a pull) and continue with a straight healing. Its working great.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The new slow he got recently made a huge difference. Its a great debuff. I'm temped to have us try the Ward tactic again, though its be noted many times that slow has no bearing on specials. But it might be an interesting test to try again and compare it with our straight heal tactic. Now that we have done it for several levels straight (healing only), it might provide more insight.</DIV><hr></blockquote>What I meant about the upgrade in armor making a huge difference is that it gives the mystic the time to cast all his dots and debuffs without having to chainheal and chainward you, not that the ward itself gets better.If you hadn't upgraded your armor there is no way you could have survived with just heals against the same mobs since it seemed like the mob was almost too much to handle.

[Krissi_Katfig]

While I agree that often wards get whacked fairly quickly, I think it is pretty balanced when you consider how situationally powerful wards are.As far as I know, druids and clerics can't stack their specialized heals for additional effect. Often times, mobs can overwhelm their heals with several 300+ dmg attacks which requires them to liberally use direct heals to keep the tank up (Even with reactive or HoT running). Although my ward might get whacked in 2 hits, I can recast it immediately and the tank still hasn't lost any health. I can probably cast spectral ward 15 times before running out of mana so its not a huge deal.Also, wards represent an additional buffer of health that is above and beyond a players normal life. The power of this compared to replenishing a players already depleted life cannot be ignored.Finaly, I like wards ability to stop those massive special attacks, many of which ignore some or all armor and hit the tank for several hundred damage regardless.All things considered, I would like it if the ward absorbed a bit more dmg, but I am lvl 24 currently and getting a new ward soon, plus I only have spectral at app2-Briana