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[Soldancer]

-<p>Message Edited by Soldancer on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 PM</span>

[Gaellen]

I've been using this in raids now for just over a year, from t5 to t7, and once you start coordinating with your raid it becomes non-issue.  The spell is incredibly powerful (1600 mit and resists at Master 1), and the stun looks like it was intended to be a balancing factor. Would it be kinda cool if it didn't stun?  Sure.  But if you've got a raid with 5-6 healers and all are fully aware that you'll not be healing for the first 30 seconds, they should very easily be able to compensate.  In addition, you can cancel it whenever you want.  AND since it's adding so much mitigation your tank should be taking less damage, so require less burst healing anyway.  *shrug*<div></div>

[Ca]

<div>It's an amazing spell and is by no means useless. If you want some healing while Porc is up here's what I do: 1)throw single HoT on MT, 2)throw up group HoT, 3)hit Hibernation, and 4) hit Porc on MT. This is a combo that rarely fails.</div>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><p>Well casting that combo regen+grp+hib your regen would almost be expired with the change that regens only last 10 secs now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> wish it was still 20 secs.</p><p>But yeah porcupine/urchin are great spells in raids to cast just before the pull to give the tank added mitig/resists and give people time to slow/debuff the mob.</p><p>Just imagine how useless this spell was pre cu where it was only a dmg shield it was nice in certain situations with loads of mobs but then again furies were never in the mt pre cu <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p>

[Golembes]

<div>The comparable warden spell is actually Heirophant Genesis.  It stuns us an heals for less than our normal single target HoT with a very small power transfer.  Talk about useless...</div><div> </div><div>Anyways, I'll trade you Porcupine for Heirophant Genesis :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div>Hmm the lvl 70 upgrade to HG looks kinda nice tho saw a master version of that one and it has quite a bit heal range but it can potentially heal for 750 p/tick and gives like 50 mana a tick if Im correct doesnt sound that bad to me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Asp728]

<div></div>I would be happy if I could cast Porcupine on someone outside of group (in raid).  Unless you are in the MT group, it is useless on raids.

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div>well in a way its kinda cool too everyone wants to feel special and be in the mt grp <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hehe this spell secures the spot for some encounters and I think thats just right.

[Soldancer]

-<p>Message Edited by Soldancer on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Yarginis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Soldancer wrote:That's another problem with Porcupine: As fury you are mostly not in MT-group but in the caster group because of the int-buffs you can give. Fury have not much defensive-buffs which are needed in MT-group.Gaellen wrote: "But if you've got a raid with 5-6 healers and all are fully aware that you'll not be healing for the first 30 seconds, they should very easily be able to compensate."Such type of easy raid is not the problem. Problem are hard raids where the healing power of every healer counts and one healer more or lesser means win or loose.And ssure, I can cast HOTs and Hibernation before porcupine but this help only 10 secs, after this I must be prepared to cancel the spell imidiately if necessary. In hard raids I have no time for such enable/disable hazzle only for 10 secs additional protection.<p>Message Edited by Soldancer on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>His point what that with 5 or 6 other healers, the decrease in healing because you are stunned is far less than the decrease in damage taken from using porcupine. with 6 healers, you represent 17% of the raid healing capacity roughly, however if your porcupine can reduce the damage them MT takes by 20, 25, even 30% or more, that is a far greater impact than the 17% loss of healing. Remember, that 1600 isn't just to physical mitigation, thats to ALL resists as well. And never forget, if your tank has 10,000 hp, and he get hit for 11,000 he's dead no matter how good your healing, but if your porcupine can mitigate that down to 7,000, 8,000, even 9,000 you still have a chance.</span><div></div>

[Soldancer]

-<p>Message Edited by Soldancer on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[catweaver]

This spell is FAR from useless - it's the first one on my list to buy master, and the one master I'm really looking at getting. 1. Who says you can't use it in the group you're in? If you're in a caster group (I admit, this is where I end up the most also, which is silly, see point 2) I don't use it as much as if I'm in MT group.  However, if I know that my wizzie has ice comet / fusion inc and it's a fast dps fight where we need them to stay alive, I'll warn my fellow healers it's going up and on who - the extra mitigation for a cloth wearer means they last for more than one or two hits.2. Caster groups should already be capped at INT even without our buffs - I love being in the caster group because then I get to play mini-dps and healing goddess and show off while keeping (most of the time) my fragile softies alive.3. Group HOT + Hibernate + Urchin = 36 secs of extra life if I pull agro and my MA/MT can't keep a target off me in a mob encounter.  In the Lab there are those solo drakes from the eggs - try pulling as many as you can, lay down ring of fire and then throw Urchin on and watch the fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's all a matter of timing, in layering your heals and having a great partnership with your healers.Lubij, Ethereal Legacy70 Fury<div></div>

[Gaellen]

Most raiding mages are int capped.  At the start of a new expansion, maybe not so much, but still no real "need" for a fury.  It's still a nice place to be for those that aren't, and to help with resists and healing, but not needed.So far there are no/few orange raid mobs in t7.  Orange mobs were one of the primary reasons to have a Warden in the MT group, and without them, a Fury is just as good and in some cases better.  It really depends if your tank holds aggro by being hit, doing damage, or whatever.  But we frequently have furies in the MT group now.As the math above shows (and I've parsed a fair bit to verify this), the damage is reduced enough to make the lack of heals acceptable.  With two regens and hibernation prior to activation, then back into the frey afterwards, it balances out just fine.I'll agree to this though (and maybe this is where you are coming from?) in specific t6 cases when you are level 60, meaning the mob is orange, for instance, Pedestal of Sky, Godking, Jura'nata & Friends, BlackQueen, this spell would not be the optimal solution. <div></div>

[Launceal]

I consider this one of the most important raiding spells in the game.  It is an absolute enabler for some mobs.  We have banged our heads against a mob for 5 wipes before, then tweaked the strat to pull the named with a hibernate/porcupine combo.....it simply makes otherwise impossible mobs possible.  1600 miti to ALL things physical and spells.....is HUGE.  If a named is nearly one-shotting your MT, then no matter how many healers you have.....you are dead.  If this spell allows the MT to mitigate those hits way down...it allows the other healers to keep him up.  That first 30 seconds is important...once all the debuffs are on the named....and porc drops...you start normal direct heals .....FTW!If you think this is useless and you get an Urchin Master drop, PST to me~<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div>I would agree with being able to cast it on "Raid or Group Friend", but I don't think shortening the recast timer or taking the stun off is necessary.</div><div> </div><div>But it is somewhat worth noting that altho it is a cool spell, I only get to use it once in a blue moon... which kinda sucks</div>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><p>It depends im in a raiding guild and very often in the mt grp and I use this spell a lot on pulls.</p><p>Its useful, and yeah it is situational but its actually useful in the situations where its supposed to be useful <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[sorinev]

I don't like the stun either. If it worked outside of group, the stun would be worth it. But as it is, I am never...NEVER in the MT group unless all of our wardens are absent. This only happens 1% of the time on current-tier raids, and 90% of the time on lower-tier raids (which we do for fun and don't need porcupine anyways). Our guild's holy trinity of templar + warden + shaman (either of them) is NEVER broken. EVER. AT ALL. It is the holy trinity, or bust. It will be a cold, frigid, frozen antarctic day in hell before the trinity is broken by putting a fury in it over a warden. Which is unfortunate because the porcupine line has SO much potential (and fury in general). I know damm well there are situations where porcupine could have let us do something that actually took us much longer to do, or that took lucky rolls from the mobs and lucky timing from our heals.

[Bi]

because of the lack of information and parsing of mitigation, it's difficult to tell what the difference is between not having porc up, and it being up.Likewise our holy trinity is the same, generally with a defiler for the raw hp than a mystic for sta.Porc needs to do something different to the stun to be useful, in my opinion, but something still very limiting (maybe a short duration stifle, and a full duration root.. its the 25+seconds that are dangerous, as you havent been healing for 15or more seconds at this point )<div></div>

[Ashtu]

<div></div>It has its uses, just not one that I'd personally never run into. I would never use this solo, and I would never use this in normal groups unless there was a second healer.  Which I virtually never have.  I would probably use this on raids, but I don't raid.  I think their biggest mistake was making this our signature, once-every-20-level spell.  Not that I think our spell lines otherwise are weak, but that should have been reserved for something really good and commonly used. 

[Shadus]

>Our sisters and brothers the wardens have a comparable spell called "Duststorm". If they activate this>spell they are rooted but not stunned, means thy can continue healing while duststorm is active.Actually not, our comparable spell is Hierophantic Genesis, it stuns us for 36s and provides subpar healing (eg: our normal heals far far far exceed the ammount even master 1 HG provides-- meaning it wont keep tank alive) and a (very) minor power regen.  Duststorm is a whole nother ball of wax and isn't our level 50 class defining spell... duststorm/sandstorm suffers from another problem-- in a group its highly overpowered, in a raid it has 0 use whatsoever.  The warden's are in the same boat as you, we want our 50 defining spell to NOT STUN so we can do our jobs.  Would also be nice if you could cast the 50 defining spell on other members of the raid rather than just the people in your group... which is also an issue that effects the Furies.<div></div>

[vochore]

<div></div><p>i personally only use porcupine on raids,not sure about most of the other fury's out there but i am always in the Mt grp...every raid,i usually cast it just as the tank is pulling the mob in...</p><p>cant wait till i get the level 70 upgrade to it.</p>

[Gertack_v2]

Urchin M1 is +2,240 mitigation/resists and ~293 damage per hit.Works pretty well from my tests, but of course only ever on a raid.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Soldancer wrote:That's another problem with Porcupine: As fury you are mostly not in MT-group but in the caster group because of the int-buffs you can give. Fury have not much defensive-buffs which are needed in MT-group.<hr></blockquote><p>For a different perspective...</p><p>For certain encounters, we almost always have a Fury in the MT group <em>JUST</em> for Porcupine.</p><p> </p>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><p>Yes I have absolutely no problem with this spell, I love it with a vengeance but then again Im in a hardcore raid guild so yeah i get to use it to the max during raids.</p><p> </p>

[Goozman]

<div>I'm rarely in the MT group anymore, which is why I rarely use the spell. And since I'm always solo healing, I very rarely get to use it in groups. And I don't see why I would ever use it soloing, unless I was just being weird.</div><div> </div><div>I did use it the other day though, when we were 1 grouping all the x2's in ToS with a Templar in the group, and all was good... There was peace and unity in the world</div>

[kenji]

<div></div><div>Porc isnt used to hold for whole 36 sec anyways. a limited charges ~15? of dmg shield then it's auto gone.</div><div> </div><div>placing HoT, Hibernation, Porc should be fine . reducing ~30% dmg incoming within the Porc duration. </div><div> </div><div>useless? hm...far from it.</div>

[CodeKill]

<div></div>This spell rocks, and any tank worth his wait will know it and expect it in an MT grp. If he doesn't he's not much of a tank. I use it in grp instances for pete sakes as a saver throw if things get to out of control. I love it. Throw Hot and then Porc and the other healer can maintain the grp til it wears off or everyone has a chance to get away, but I use feathers with the run part hehehe.

[Goozman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<div></div>This spell rocks, and any tank worth his wait will know it and expect it in an MT grp. If he doesn't he's not much of a tank. I use it in grp instances for pete sakes as a saver throw if things get to out of control. I love it. Throw Hot and then Porc and the other healer can maintain the grp til it wears off or everyone has a chance to get away, but I use feathers with the run part hehehe.<hr></blockquote>The prob with that is, having 2 healers in a group becomes progressively worth less and slows the group down. You'll rarely, if ever, get to use it once you start being the only healer. Think I've been in a group with a second healer three times in KoS, and playing backup was hella boring and unnecessary all three times.

[vochore]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<div></div>This spell rocks, and any tank worth his wait will know it and expect it in an MT grp. If he doesn't he's not much of a tank. I use it in grp instances for pete sakes as a saver throw if things get to out of control. I love it. Throw Hot and then Porc and the other healer can maintain the grp til it wears off or everyone has a chance to get away, but I use feathers with the run part hehehe.<hr></blockquote>The prob with that is, having 2 healers in a group becomes progressively worth less and slows the group down. You'll rarely, if ever, get to use it once you start being the only healer. Think I've been in a group with a second healer three times in KoS, and playing backup was hella boring and unnecessary all three times.<hr></blockquote>slows the grp down....you need to start nuking more...wene im the sec healer i just let loose with my nukes and dots...hell,most of the time i have to put all of my mana regen gear on just to keep myself at half mana i nuke so much...and no i dodnt have an agro problem as long as the tank is good.

[Goozman]

<div><blockquote><hr>vochore wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<div></div>This spell rocks, and any tank worth his wait will know it and expect it in an MT grp. If he doesn't he's not much of a tank. I use it in grp instances for pete sakes as a saver throw if things get to out of control. I love it. Throw Hot and then Porc and the other healer can maintain the grp til it wears off or everyone has a chance to get away, but I use feathers with the run part hehehe.<hr></blockquote>The prob with that is, having 2 healers in a group becomes progressively worth less and slows the group down. You'll rarely, if ever, get to use it once you start being the only healer. Think I've been in a group with a second healer three times in KoS, and playing backup was hella boring and unnecessary all three times.<hr></blockquote>slows the grp down....you need to start nuking more...wene im the sec healer i just let loose with my nukes and dots...hell,most of the time i have to put all of my mana regen gear on just to keep myself at half mana i nuke so much...and no i dodnt have an agro problem as long as the tank is good.<hr></blockquote>Umm... I have 480 int, 6500 power, and chain cast master 1 damage spells (+ master 2 ae), with 30% chance to crit and 3 items which proc additional nukes on my hostile spells... that gets me about 375-600 dps depending on crits/procs (more if its a huge multimob encounter that dies quick) which is an as.sload less than any dps class. I'd say that slows the group down by quite a bit. Not to mention, cycling our only 4 damage spells is incredibly boring and unintuitive.</div><div> </div><div>When I'm the "secondary healer", I never cast a heal spell unless the main healer goes afk. Having two healers is lame.</div>

[jeffdo]

Has anyone used stun immunity with this? I'm just wondering if it allows you to porcupine and not get stunned.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div>It doesn't work hehe. People used to exploit combinations like that before but they fixed it all a while ago :smileysad:

[Scarrlette]

I'm not sure why one would start a thread then remove all of their posts (we can read editted posts btw), but umm, I fail to see the point of keeping this thread open now.  O.o