I'm sorry to advise people not to level a fury

[mind|e]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the idea behind the fury, and I love my own personal character...but only because I've spent 3 months of my life leveling him to 50.  First tho, if you haven't read Rensu's posts....you are in desperate need of some schooling by the master of fury analysis.  Read : <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=30368&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=30368&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a fury in a fairly decent guild that is taking on the high end - end game content.  I like to think of myself as a pretty good player, strategist, etc.  Because of the issues noted in Rensu's post I am more resourcefull than 90% of players that I've been with, because I HAVE to be.  It kills me that I see wardens, templars, and even inquisitors and defilers (who are also heavily nerfed in comparison) healing the pants off of me.  Here we are raiding Darathar and I'm all but sidelined not because of inexperience, but because a warden and templar can each do twice what I can do.  My guild rocks, but I think they take pitty on me and keep me in the groups because I know the game well and I have group invis.  Note that its not because I offer good heals! The level 45 warden kills my heals, and all their spells are at adept 1 while mine are ad3.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These issues are not new.  I'm regurgitating what has been said over and over again since Rensu first started off.  Hopefully it will someday be noticed.  Please SOE FIX THE FURY</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fait]

I'm sure this is a great way to get your issues addressed...tell people to get out while they still can!  Every class has problems, Furies are not the only or probably even the first.  Go on the same board where Rensu's post can be found, and you will see similar threads for almost <EM>every</EM> other class in the game.  I hardly think advising people to give up on their character is called for...somehow <EM>you</EM> managed to get to level 50.  I am at level 42, and I would only encourage any lower level Fury to stick with it and develop their character--I wouldn't trade mine any day.

[Katx]

<P>The OP isn't talking about getting to 50.  He's talking about his effectiveness in high end raiding.</P> <P>As you have every right to state your opinion, he has every right to state his.  You have every right to disagree.  However, we are statistically not as good at healing as the other healing classes.  And our utility doesn't provide enough benefit to offset this.  This is proven.  When it comes time for high end raids, why would groups choose us over the other healing classes, unless we have guild mates who, as the OP mentioned, take pity on us and include us?</P> <P>I would agree with you that for leveling to 50, we can get by.  But I would agree with the OP that if you want to be effective at the end game raiding level, unless we do get some love and some increased healing ability, pick a different healer class.</P>

[Fait]

<DIV>I know what the OP meant...and was just pointing out that for the subject of this post to be "don't level your fury," he is the highest level possible at the moment.  I don't believe that telling people to quit playing their characters is any way to get your issues looked at.  Seems to me that the more people who experience the same issues, the more voices you have to add stregnth to your argument.  I can see the numbers in Rensu's post as well as anyone else...I still don't agree 100% with it, but, as you said, that is my right.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally don't think that the only answer is to simply add more hps to our heals...I like the buffs and the procs that we get.  I'd like to see those increased.  Another post mentions that +4 to AGI isn't worthwhile...an AGI buff is great, because that lessens the chance that the tank will take damage at all...the less damage taken, the less hps I need to heal for.  <EM>That</EM> is where I feel my edge comes in.  <EM>That</EM> is where I want to see the devs look.  But again, that is just me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I enjoy being what I consider a well-rounded class, with a little of this and a little of that, and I am voicing my opinions after quite a while of simply reading the boards because I don't want to see the things I enjoy lessened in favor of a spell that simply replenishes hps.  I think we need to be looked at.  I think that as the game progresses, all characters need to be looked at, because issues are becoming apparent now that we couldn't see back as a Priest, or Druid, things that we are only seeing now as Furies.  This will happen throughout the game.  When new spells are added to take us to level 60, they won't be perfect.  But that doesn't mean anyone should stop in their tracks and reroll immediately.</DIV>

[Dagny]

<P>I'm going to voice my problem.  This is the first time I've said it out loud.:smileytongue:</P> <P>I have a hard time with the fact that a Paladin can whip off a straight heal better than I can.  Yes, Paladins can heal better than I can. (if we are just counting straight +hp heals)</P> <P>I like the regens but I think we should be given another straight heal.  A flat out oh, you are hurt here you go heal.</P> <P>(btw I'm a lvl 41 fury and the pally i reference is 41 also.  He can heal for almost 500 hp at a time.)</P>

[RBDVALENTI]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mind|ess wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the idea behind the fury, and I love my own personal character...but only because I've spent 3 months of my life leveling him to 50.  First tho, if you haven't read Rensu's posts....you are in desperate need of some schooling by the master of fury analysis.  Read : <A target=_blank href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=30368&page=1">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=30368&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a fury in a fairly decent guild that is taking on the high end - end game content.  I like to think of myself as a pretty good player, strategist, etc.  Because of the issues noted in Rensu's post I am more resourcefull than 90% of players that I've been with, because I HAVE to be.  It kills me that I see wardens, templars, and even inquisitors and defilers (who are also heavily nerfed in comparison) healing the pants off of me.  Here we are raiding Darathar and I'm all but sidelined not because of inexperience, but because a warden and templar can each do twice what I can do.  My guild rocks, but I think they take pitty on me and keep me in the groups because I know the game well and I have group invis.  Note that its not because I offer good heals! The level 45 warden kills my heals, and all their spells are at adept 1 while mine are ad3.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These issues are not new.  I'm regurgitating what has been said over and over again since Rensu first started off.  Hopefully it will someday be noticed.  Please SOE FIX THE FURY</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The dev's have already posted they are Currently looking at the fury vs. warden issues.</P> <P>This game is too new to be telling anyone not to level a certain class.  Like every other MMORPG there are going to be a lot of class "nerfs" throughout the entirity of the game.  </P> <P>~Demise, 50 Fury, Unrest</P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dagny wrote:<BR> <P>I'm going to voice my problem.  This is the first time I've said it out loud.:smileytongue:</P> <P>I have a hard time with the fact that a Paladin can whip off a straight heal better than I can.  Yes, Paladins can heal better than I can. (if we are just counting straight +hp heals)</P> <P>I like the regens but I think we should be given another straight heal.  A flat out oh, you are hurt here you go heal.</P> <P>(btw I'm a lvl 41 fury and the pally i reference is 41 also.  He can heal for almost 500 hp at a time.)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just to add to this... I actually had the Paladin in my guild tell me "I can take over healing for a bit if you need to take a break or something."</P> <P>He was dead serious.</P>

[Tige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dagny wrote:<BR> <P>I'm going to voice my problem.  This is the first time I've said it out loud.:smileytongue:</P> <P>I have a hard time with the fact that a Paladin can whip off a straight heal better than I can.  Yes, Paladins can heal better than I can. (if we are just counting straight +hp heals)</P> <P>I like the regens but I think we should be given another straight heal.  A flat out oh, you are hurt here you go heal.</P> <P>(btw I'm a lvl 41 fury and the pally i reference is 41 also.  He can heal for almost 500 hp at a time.)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And at a lev 41 Fury you can heal for over 600 Points. Your Wilding Elixer should do almost, or close, to 650+ Heal points. Are all your spells at App. 1?</P> <P> </P>

[RBDVALENTI]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tigerj wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dagny wrote:<BR> <P>I'm going to voice my problem.  This is the first time I've said it out loud.:smileytongue:</P> <P>I have a hard time with the fact that a Paladin can whip off a straight heal better than I can.  Yes, Paladins can heal better than I can. (if we are just counting straight +hp heals)</P> <P>I like the regens but I think we should be given another straight heal.  A flat out oh, you are hurt here you go heal.</P> <P>(btw I'm a lvl 41 fury and the pally i reference is 41 also.  He can heal for almost 500 hp at a time.)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And at a lev 41 Fury you can heal for over 600 Points. Your Wilding Elixer should do almost, or close, to 650+ Heal points. Are all your spells at App. 1?</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You get wildling elixir at like 32, at 41 even if it's app1 I guarentee you are healing more than 500hp.</P> <P>You can get effl made to adept3 for like 20gp and it heals for like 580 something. </P> <P>Also take into consideration the pally's recast time on that heal.  If a pally ever has to take over heals in a group from you, well maybe you should listen to the title of this thread....</P> <P>~Demise, 50 Fury, Unrest<BR></P>

[ren]

Actually the recast isn't longer than ours (in fact, i believe that it is shorter).  Only their major LoH line heal has a really long recast. <p>Message Edited by rensu on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[jfo]

wow... lamest post ever.why not just say 'all raids must be 23 templars and a guardian' or 'my guild couldn't figure out that pairing me up with a mystic and filling the raid group with scouts and a zerker was a great idea, so obviously my class sucks'.for the people getting outhealed by paladins... +500hp every thirty minutes vs. +1600hp in nine seconds... wow, you must really suck. one star away, but if this is you, roleplay more, reroll or please just shut the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] up.

[Eneg]

<blockquote><hr>jfood wrote:wow... lamest post ever.why not just say 'all raids must be 23 templars and a guardian' or 'my guild couldn't figure out that pairing me up with a mystic and filling the raid group with scouts and a zerker was a great idea, so obviously my class sucks'.for the people getting outhealed by paladins... +500hp every thirty minutes vs. +1600hp in nine seconds... wow, you must really suck. one star away, but if this is you, roleplay more, reroll or please just shut the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] up.<hr></blockquote>What's wrong with you? Furies get outhealed by other healing classes. Not because of lack of strategy or because a given Fury cant play his class properly, but because Sony has to fix/balance their class.Filling a raid group with scouts and zerkers? Did you read the post or are you just trolling out of boredom? He was talking about a Darathar raid. Have you ever parsed a melee class on a Darathar raid?<p>Message Edited by Enegar on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[ren]

<DIV> <DIV>They have like a 3s cast 5 recast 500pt heal and their high level LoH is over 1,000 at adept3, IIRC.  The loh is on a really long timer, though.  Plus they have wards.  It isn't +500hp every 30 minutes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, I don't think that paladins heal better than us.  They don't.  They are great healers for being a tank, though.</DIV></DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rensu wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>They have like a 3s cast 5 recast 500pt heal and their high level LoH is over 1,000 at adept3, IIRC.  The loh is on a really long timer, though.  Plus they have wards.  It isn't +500hp every 30 minutes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, I don't think that paladins heal better than us.  They don't.  They are great healers for being a tank, though.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said.

[Snikey]

<DIV>Re-roll to shaman and know what it means to suck at healing.........</DIV>

[jfo]

there's the one star...one raid... we're 'useless' on one raid... at the very end of the game... well [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]... might as well pack it in right now. by that logic, all the scouts should pack it in as well, seeing as how a bunch of raid mobs are also immune to slashing and piercing weapons as well. the eight i've taken part in so far, my team has outdamaged the fingerwigglers by a two to one margin... but that doesn't count because there's this one end-game mob where we'll suck and that means no one should play our class, at all.i read the boards, i feel gimped... i log back in and solo heal in the obelisk of lost souls at level 38. is it efficient? gawd no. is it doable? precariously so. could be better and will be. do casters give me trouble? yes. do i own melee mobs like they stole something? hell yes. this drama with some of the 'how gimped we are posts' really goes over the line. telling people not to play our class because we don't min/max to the decimal point or due to the fact that there's this one raid mob when you get to fifty that we're 'useless' on, is really lame. things change, fixes come. if people want to give up, that's fine and 'can i have your unattuned stuff' but telling others not to have fun or not to play a class that agrees with them is just sad.

[Katx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>jfood wrote:<BR>there's the one star...<BR>.</P> <P>.<BR><BR>this drama with some of the 'how gimped we are posts' really goes over the line. telling people not to play our class because we don't min/max to the decimal point or due to the fact that there's this one raid mob when you get to fifty that we're 'useless' on, is really lame. things change, fixes come. if people want to give up, that's fine and 'can i have your unattuned stuff' but telling others not to have fun or not to play a class that agrees with them is just sad.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You don't get one-starred because of your opinion.  You get one-starred because of the rudeness you use to express your opinion.  You can't post anything without throwing in an insult to someone.</P> <P>I disagree with Eireann and she disagrees with me, but I don't think either one of us has been horribly insulting to the other.</P> <P>The drama here isn't people posting their opinions concerning high-end raid effectiveness.  People are perfectly capable of reading what the OP says and then determining if they respect his opinion enough to reconsider their decision to make a Fury and/or continue playing the class.  </P> <P>No, it's your replies that add the drama.</P> <P>Message Edited by Katxim on <SPAN class=date_text>03-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Katxim on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[jfo]

i lost my patience trying to be positive and come up with good ideas months ago. got one starred all the time back then too. the real drama is that which requires theatrics and grandiose statements of doom, i'm just a bytch. fait gets one starred as well most of the time, or has been at least. seriously, most of this forum acts like a bunch of drunks crying about how they [Removed for Content] away thier lives on something meaningless and anyone who counters that is not to be tolerated... and we ain't even shaman broke. nothing positive is to be accepted or even spoken aloud as this will get us 'nerfed' or 'not fixed'. the class itself is good, with a few problems. the community is [Removed for Content]. post go by asking for advice on how to be a bit better or make things easier... and we've all learned how to do this. no one ever takes the time to answer these or lend a hand to someone who might be struggling with getting things done. no one bothers with those but everyone seems more than apt to join in on a tearjerker about how gimped we are.

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>jfood wrote:</P> <P><BR>i'm just a bytch.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL.  Er... Anyways, you can turn off the star ratings in the preferences.  I keep mine off most of the time, and usually only turn it on to see general reaction if I start a thread.</DIV>

[Fait]

I can sympathize with Jfood, it is very easy to get frustrated and go on the defensive, especially when you feel you have something good to say and it seems to be constantly buried under all the bad.  I am really amazed at the reaction I got from Ximeni...an "agree to disagree" response is new to me, and likely because I calmed down a little from some of my other posts!  :smileyhappy: 

[RBDVALENTI]

<DIV>A raid that is successful or unsuccessful doesn't come down to one person making or breaking it.  Sure having power regen (i.e. coercer) etc.. in the group is a plus, but bottom line is it may be harder but it can be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Verax's guild dropped lots of high end raid mobs on Unrest (vox, darather, venekor, etc..), so it can be done and thats all I really care about with the current situation our class is in.  Of course we need some work, but the horse has to be dead by now doesn't it?  I mean the dev's posted they are working on our issues, why do people insist on bringing it up over and over with new threads?  If you have additional issues add them to rensu's thread.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I'm just getting tired of the negativity in our class forum.  I enjoy reading posts about people finding master 1's and posting the stats, people leveling, finding out new things about our class...things like that (you know positive things).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Demise, 50 Fury, Unrest  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>

[mind|e]

<DIV>This thread is all but dead, but I figure I'll give a response since I started it and I haven't had a chance to respond.  First off, the title was probably poorly chosen.  I wouldn't say don't level your fury....just don't start a fury <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The issue is also entirely dependant upon what type of player you are or want to be.  If you just want to hang out in the lvl 20-40 range for a long time, hang out, and casually complete a quest here or there, fury's can be great.  The real problems come into focus however when you are trying the end game content and need to strategize about how to use every single person to the best of their ability.  Fury's just don't stack up in this regard.  Although it kills me to say it, there is nothing (class specific, not player specific) that would make a group take a fury over a warden or templar.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now let me quickly address just a few of the points that I saw people post.  <BR></DIV> <DIV>Fait68 " I don't believe that telling people to quit playing their characters is any way to get your issues looked at."  Nor do I man, the plea to SOE was more of a prayer...not a realistic expectation.  What I was doing was giving a pragmatic opinion of what people should do about their OWN fury.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jfood "wow... lamest post ever. why not just say 'all raids must be 23 templars and a guardian' or 'my guild couldn't figure out that pairing me up with a mystic and filling the raid group with scouts and a zerker was a great idea, so obviously my class sucks'."  Why not say it, cuz it would be wrong.  That's not even close to what I said.  I didn't even say that I couldn't get the job done, rather that in comparison it is a hell of a lot harder for me to do it, thus a much higher % chance of failure, etc.  I'm not even going to continue....this would be a good time for you to insert foot to mouth. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enegar "What's wrong with you?" God you rock <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Snikey "Re-roll to shaman and know what it means to suck at healing........." I feel the pain man.  I've gone over heals blow by blow with both a lvl 50 mystic and defiler.  Although the buffs/debuffs rock, you guys get shafted on the healz as well.  You are however intrinsic to a well balanced raid force.  I am still trying to find the distinguishing characteristic of a fury that makes us as needed (besides invis).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jfood "there's the one star..." The one raid I mentioned was an example mate...of every big encounter past lvl 45.  Foot back to mouth please.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jfood "...statements of doom, i'm just a bytch." I couldn't agree more :o  I spend roughly an hour a day explaining things to lower level fury's.  I help them figure out what spells to use, what to keep for emergencies, which are most cost proficient, etc.  I am the EQ2 helpdesk for fury's on the Nektulos server, so stop hating on me when I give a simple opinion of what class to choose if you still have the option or are low enough that rerolling is still an option.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RBDVALENTINE  I appreciate what you're saying man, its just that that specific night I felt like venting a little bit.  I'll stick by the opinion that if you are going to choose between classes anytime soon, or are low enough to reroll....go warden.  I also think that one person can make or break a high end raid situation.  Look at the MT in you're guild, how would you guys deal without him? Ours is intrinsic, so are our two best healers....a templar and a warden.  You are right about posting constructive material tho mate.  I'll make sure to chime in a little more often with more positive chatter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Getting tired...gnight fury's.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amn out.</DIV>

[Launceal]

The biggest problem with all the talk about Furys is that everyone wants to put every healer in a box called "how many hp can you heal a second for how much power?".  The game just doens't work like that.  The classes have more complex abilities that can effect the outcome of a fight in a subtle way.  I play a 46 Fury.  I think Furys rock and I wouldn't change my class for anything atm.  First off...I actually find the group invis much more useful on a night to night basis than evac, but thats just personal choice.  I hate it when people proclaim one skill better than another like everyone has to agree. My main point is that you have to look at a character's overall contribution to winning an encoutner.  It is incredibly naive and myopic to analyze a pair of spells....and proclaim it OBVIOUS that one is better than the other because it heals a bit more....and one sucks because all it does is buff the target for +25 STR, STA.  How do you know what effect that will have on the encounter?  25 STR is a good chunk of STR.  A melee hits a good deal harder with that much more STR.  What is the DPS difference when that heal is used vs one that doesn't buff like that?  I don't know the exact answers here...but stop dogging the class if you don't either. Being able to lower the dps of a mob is a big deal.  If fury's would use their debuffs effectively alongside their heals, people would realize that its not about comparing a single heal spell side by side.  The overall contribution to the encoutner is far more than that.  Fury buffs are great.  The avoidence we give to the MT causes them to take less dmg...plain and simple.  When you add in the debuffs we can do.....and that our heals add a bit to the MTs dps...you just cant dismiss us as a class because we cant cast a single heal that is bigger than xXXX healing classes heal. I kind of laugh at the fury over the furys....because I'm having a blast playing mine..and more important, because I don't act like a whiner 24/7....my friends that I play with done have a bad impression about Furys either.  They know they rock because we do. Now before anyone gets all bent.....I do recognize that there are fixes that need to be made.  There are in all the classes.  Could we use a little adjustment to endgame healing spells...maybe.  The whole aggro bug with our heal over times is silly and must be fixed.  Our broken spells must be fixed.  But this isn't the broken class that many people are making it out to be. <div></div>

[TimboSilvermi]

<P>/cheer Launcelot</P> <P>Very, very well said.  I rarely post on this board anymore because it's become such a whinefest, but it's good to know I'm not alone in believing that we rock.  I also just dinged 46, and I still believe we're a touch overpowered on the solo side.  In groups, sure I'd like to have better instant heals, but I've learned how to compensate for that in ways other than bemoaning how gimped my class is.</P> <P>(Not aiming these comments at the OP necessarily, but rather at the overall trend this board has followed over the last three months.)</P> <P>Let the one-starring begin!  I'm off to enjoy my Fury.  Cheers!</P>

[Kit_Oturea]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TimboSilvermist wrote:<BR> <P>/cheer Launcelot</P> <P>Very, very well said.  I rarely post on this board anymore </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>LOL well the good news is neither is anyone else.  The "whiners" are also leaving because they have moved on to different classes or quit the game.  As for me, I'm not really a good responder to positive comments because I really have grown more and more disinterested in the class.  However, SOE said they were looking into it and people who had concerns tended to stop discussing them because what was the point?  They heard the concerns, we will see what they do.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for Lance, I'll disagree with you on the spells.  you CAN look at the effects of most spells in a class and compare to determine difference.  But your right in that you have to look at the whole.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>When you do ya find we are worse at everything but the group invis and perhaps DPS.  However I can not gauge DPS bonus because I do not have a high enough warden and can't tell if a bonus to your effective level (offensive skill) is better then a few 2-5% chance of procing procs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>However, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> I can tell you flat out by removing a piece or two of armor from my berserker with str and watching DPS that it has some but not a lot of effect.  I can tell you it is not nearly as effective as 1100 healing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Especially after they nerfed str bonus damage.  you have to cross a threshhold to make it worthwhile.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So just to sum up, I'll massively disagree with you about comparisons.  If you have moderately concerte devles you can compare and we do not stack up.  What is interesting is how people who want to say positive things do not see the effect it can have.  Basically if you like the class as it is, leave it alone.  Saying it is great HINDERS its improvement.   Which is not partiucally fair to those who do see issues.  In otherwords, you can discredit and degrade my concerns but my actions have no negative effect on your (lacl) of concerns.  Get the idea?  If the devs see you think that being sub-par is fine and enough people say that, then they make no action because in their view customers do not see an issue.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Now hopefully they have gone off and are looking at it and will do something, but understand your opinion of we are fine is a reasonable one to you, but in expressing it and calling those (who might also have ligit concerns you don't see) whiners you actually hurt your overall effectiveness in the long run.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Anyway,</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>See ya,</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Rakk</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kit_Oturea on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

[Launceal]

Well, I would say that ignoring this whole debate because I don't have huge concerns about the class and am satisfied with my characater would be great....if only it wasn't for the outcome of the debate itself. The fact is that it has been SO SUCCESSFUL in totally destroying the reputation and viability of Furies as a class that it impacts me.  Not the spells I have, not my abilities...but the HORRIBLE reputation that is a result of this totally exaggerated campaign for "balance".  My point isn't that the STR bonus 100% is balanced with 1100 points of healing.  I am saying that making these observations about the class does not have to be done in a "chicken little...the sky is falling" way.  The whole issue has been brought up so many times and with such hyperbole that there is just a kneejerk reaction now to the idea of Fury's.  It impacts furys getting groups, getting invited to guilds, joining raids, etc.  And its not because of the class...its *because* of this vocal debate.  So now, not only do we have (arguably) mildly underpowered spells....we have this horrible, undeserved, reputation to overcome.  Thanks for nothing guys. <font color="#ffff00"></font><div></div>

[Kit_Oturea]

<P>Have ya really had that big a problem?</P> <P>Furies have a moderately poor rep, but not so much that it has ever hindered me getting into a group.  They need healers, and even as the bottom of the barrel, most groups can not afford to not have a healer or two.</P> <P>From my perspective it is that if I was playing another class, I would be better in most everyway and playing at the top of my game would allow higher end content to be done then top of my game in this class.  Bringing something to the table but having it always less is what irks me.</P> <P>As an aside, the bad rep has caused us to actually get looked at and possibly improved.  So in the long run it is what is mostly likely best for us.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have a great one,</P> <P>Rakk</P> <P> </P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Launcealot wrote:<BR>Well, I would say that ignoring this whole debate because I don't have huge concerns about the class and am satisfied with my characater would be great....if only it wasn't for the outcome of the debate itself.<BR><BR>The fact is that it has been SO SUCCESSFUL in totally destroying the reputation and viability of Furies as a class that it impacts me.  Not the spells I have, not my abilities...but the HORRIBLE reputation that is a result of this totally exaggerated campaign for "balance".  My point isn't that the STR bonus 100% is balanced with 1100 points of healing.  I am saying that making these observations about the class does not have to be done in a "chicken little...the sky is falling" way.  The whole issue has been brought up so many times and with such hyperbole that there is just a kneejerk reaction now to the idea of Fury's.  It impacts furys getting groups, getting invited to guilds, joining raids, etc.  And its not because of the class...its *because* of this vocal debate.  <BR><BR>So now, not only do we have (arguably) mildly underpowered spells....we have this horrible, undeserved, reputation to overcome.  Thanks for nothing guys.<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've seen estimates of @ 10% of the player base reads the forums.  If you are finding that Fury reputation has been "totally destroyed," then 90% of that is players finding out on their own, in game.  So given that, either you are exaggerating or the problem is far worse than even <EM>I </EM>thought.</P> <P> </P> <P>/shudder</P>

[Katx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Launcealot wrote:<BR>Well, I would say that ignoring this whole debate because I don't have huge concerns about the class and am satisfied with my characater would be great....if only it wasn't for the outcome of the debate itself.<BR><BR>The fact is that it has been SO SUCCESSFUL in totally destroying the reputation and viability of Furies as a class that it impacts me.  Not the spells I have, not my abilities...but the HORRIBLE reputation that is a result of this totally exaggerated campaign for "balance".  My point isn't that the STR bonus 100% is balanced with 1100 points of healing.  I am saying that making these observations about the class does not have to be done in a "chicken little...the sky is falling" way.  The whole issue has been brought up so many times and with such hyperbole that there is just a kneejerk reaction now to the idea of Fury's.  It impacts furys getting groups, getting invited to guilds, joining raids, etc.  And its not because of the class...its *because* of this vocal debate.  <BR><BR>So now, not only do we have (arguably) mildly underpowered spells....we have this horrible, undeserved, reputation to overcome.  Thanks for nothing guys.<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've never had a problem finding a group or even a guild.  In fact, I was recruited to a guild because I was a Fury, and they didn't have any.  This guild recognizes that all classes bring something to the table, and are necessary.  As I've leveled into the high 40s (am almost 49) in  this guild, it is my impression that they still see utility in me, and still want me along on raids.  But they also do not see me as viable as the other healing classes.  And none of them read the boards.  This is solely from comparing what I am capable of to what the Inquisitors, Templars, Mystics and Defilers can do (we do not yet have a high level warden and I sort of dread the day we do - and this is from my experience playing with Wardens).  I didn't get bumped from the main tank group, to the scout group to the caster group this past weekend as more and more healers logged on because the guys in my guild read these messageboards - it's cuz the Inquisitors, Templars, Mystics and Defilers added more to the tank and scout groups than I did.</P> <P>Everyone has their place on a raid.  Not every character can be the best at everything.  But it's sort of a bummer to be veiwed as the least valuable healer on a raid, not because you suck at playing your character, but because your tools just have no one area where you bring something special (which I firmly believe each class should), and mainly, in sum, are not nearly as effective as every other healer's ability in sum.</P> <P>As just said, 90% of people don't read these messageboards - the guild leaders who put our raids together do not.  If you're not getting groups or guilds, perhaps it's because more and more players are recognizing the overall strengths and weaknesses of the healing classes via game experiences.  That's a lot more telling than a handful of people (and face it, we probably have, what, 40 - 50 out of a couple thousand 20+ Furies regularly posting on this board?) posting on a messageboard.<BR></P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Yeah dont complain of whining man cause its a fact.</P> <P>If you were in a group with only room for 1 healer and going deep into CT.</P> <P>Would you rather pick a inq/templar or a fury?</P> <P>Come on be honest.</P> <P>It can be done of course as a fury as I have done before solo healing against those frightfiends and those thulian mobs when they still were red.</P> <P>But its quite tough, and the times I group with a templar in that same group with me as a fury its a breather and I can focus on</P> <P>the dps and dont have to do a single heal (well almost).</P> <P>I know we must have differentation between classes and temps have raw healing pwr but we should make it so we make a mob drop faster and let the MT evade dmg but thats not the case atm we get a mob dropped sooner when I m in a grp but not to the extent and ease a templar can keep a group alive.</P> <P>And there's the issue between wardens and furies there needs some shaving round the edges (tho i must see if that feral salve got a nice treatment this patch and some spells got some nice procs now) prolly to up dps a notch.</P> <P> </P> <P>I love my fury btw but at times I also hate it when i get in a group and people go "Im gonna breeze the fury the last cause they are useless" as a joke and say "we all know how much furies are gimped compared to wardens."</P> <P>Don't think this is because of the forums, cause how much do you watch the forums to look at a different class I mean as a fury I never look up at the forums looking at how much wizards sucked (prepatch) or something.</P> <P> </P> <P>If there are problems we must vocalize em and dont go all dramatic here like "you whiners spoiled it for me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"  come on, please go and cry in a little corner, man I dont care.</P> <P>How in hell are the devs gonna take note of the "possible" inbalance if the "possible" problems arent vocalized?</P> <P>If thats whining so be it.</P> <P>The title of this post is a bit harsh I agree as I dont say to people who ask if a fury is a good class; "dont go fury" cause in the end we will rock (even more) Im sure.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[Launceal]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Yeah dont complain of whining man cause its a fact.</p> <p>If you were in a group with only room for 1 healer and going deep into CT.</p> <p>Would you rather pick a inq/templar or a fury?</p> <p>Come on be honest.</p> <p>It can be done of course as a fury as I have done before solo healing against those frightfiends and those thulian mobs when they still were red.</p> <p>But its quite tough, and the times I group with a templar in that same group with me as a fury its a breather and I can focus on</p> <p>the dps and dont have to do a single heal (well almost).</p> <hr></blockquote>One of the biggest problems with people's perceptions is that the nature of different healing types makes the visible evidence of healing look dramatically different.  Sure, clerics have reactives..the tanks health doesn't drop.  Druids have regens, debuffs, etc.....we don't just drop big reactive heal buffs at the start of a fight and sit back.  We have to play differently.  Is it tougher?  I guess so.  But that doesn't mean its less effective.  Encounters in EQ2 all are about one thing, a race between taking away the mobs HP, and having enough power to continue.  Clerics can keep a tanks hp bar consistantly higher during a fight....it seems lots easier.  But I find that as a fury, I can hold out longer and win more tough fights than a similar group with just a cleric.  Sure, health bars drop....people get scared....but the process of managing HP bars, interleaving regens, spot heals, debuffs, etc is what its all about being a good fury.  Picking a challenging class to play just means the game is more interesting. It has always been the case that different classes require different levels of skill to play well.  An EQ enchanter was much tougher to master than a straight out tank.  Just because a fury is filling a similar role as a cleric doesn't mean it must be equally challenging to play them.  It just means they need to be "relatively" equal in function to fill that role.  However, differing skillsets among players will certainly effect how well a specific fury stacks up against a specific cleric, etc.  I am saying fury and cleric just for example....these points apply across the spectrum of healer classes..and really across all classes. I think many of the people that are frustrated by the "broken" aspect of a fury might just be better off playing an easier class.</span><div></div>

[Ver]

<div></div><span></span><hr><span>Is it tougher?  I guess so.  But that doesn't mean its less effective.</span><hr>I don't mean to be argumentative, that's not my nature.  I do however have a problem with that statement.  If it is tougher for us to keep a group alilve by as you say, then we are not as able to do other things as other classes are.  While the skilled Fury is tied up doing 3 sec cast lvl 18 spot heals and spamming 2 sec cast lvl 12 heals, the cleric can cast a group reactive and as you say "sit back".  However, a skilled cleric won't sit back, they will debuff the mob, haste the group, cast proc buffs, cast defensive buffs, and nuke.  Our healing line is prohibiting us from being as effective as other healing classes can be.  So in the hands of a skilled player, all other healing classes will be able to do much more.<span></span><hr><span></span><span>But I find that as a fury, I can hold out longer and win more tough fights than a similar group with just a cleric.</span><hr>With as much experience as you have raiding, I HAVE to assume that you do not mean that you can keep a group alive better than a cleric.  Just in case this is what you are saying however...  group reactive + single target reactive + glory of combat = 3+ fury's.  I am sure that you know that already, but just in case.Verax<span></span><div></div>

[Launceal]

<div></div>There is the rate at which you can heal...in HP per second....the power that costs..in power per second....and the rate at which an encounter actually proceeds..and the rate at which the MT actually takes dmg.  Yes, while clerics can dish healing faster than furys, they can burn power faster too.  I think Furys can win certain encounters more easily (if the non fury can at all) by being more efficient with healing power, and by fully using their other abilities, debuffs, dps buffs, etc. Your post assumed that I play a fury a certain "given..and obvious" way. I don't.  I don't simply spam level 18 spells that have all of the interesting and helpful stuff stripped out and are pure heals.  I use my various heals, regens, heal/buff combo spells with all of their advantages and disadvantages.  I think dismissing them as useless is blinding you to the possibility that they might make a fury more effective. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Launcealot on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Ver]

Are you saying that the Fury heals are efficient?  Are you also saying that you use the higher level healing spells?  If so, you are vastly mistaken.  Fury heals and Mystic heals are the least mana efficient heals in the game. I'm sorry again if I seem argumentative, but we are running out of excuses here.  I'm not saying the sky is falling, but let's call a spade a spade here..  The low level fury heals are efficient on power, however they are not efficient on time.  The higher level ones are more efficient on time, but not at all on power.  (for example, the same mana cost for Ferine Elixer Adept3 gives you 2000 healing from a warden as opposed to 1000) I just don't see it.  We have to make the choice of a lesser of two evils.  This is not a choice the other healing sublcasses make.  Add to that that our DPS is lower, and buffs not as good.  I'm missing something here. Verax

[mind|e]

<P>I don't think you're missing anything Verax, in fact you've hit the nail on the head.  Lets call a spade a spade and move on with it.  I regret even starting this thread, but it was an impulse after reading forums, doing up my own fury/warden anaylysis, and a bottle of wine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </P> <P>I don't think there are many people that will argue anymore that we aren't broken, that our heals are remotely close to as efficient as a warden, or that we have a defining characteristic in groups that makes us invaluable.  To those of you that disagree, I give you two thumbs up for optimism and wish you the best.  </P> <DIV>To all the fury's tho... here's to us rocking because we work harder at it.  I started a new thread that works at helping us look at what spells/combo's to be using.  Although it's geared at 47+, I'll try to make it for all lvls....lets try to make our class as good as possible with what we have to work with <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amn out-</DIV>

[Launceal]

I do use them, yes.  Thank you for illustrating my point.  You are reducing the evaluation of these spells down to a pure formula of healing vs power.  You are ignoring the other effects which can have a significant contribution yet you are dismissing them by inspection without really knowing either way if they help.   Rensu's post considers the str/sta buff from our heal and simply by inspection dismisses it as "thats a terrible tradeoff...etc".  The fact is, that kind of STR/STA makes a real significant contribution to a fight.  Someone mentioned that they nerfed the amount of extra effect of high STR in the game....well they did that because adding a big chunk of STR to someone has a large and pronounced effect on how hard they hit.  If you were able to (sure..its pretty tough to work the numbers) evaluate a spell on "hp healed, dmg done or dps adjustment factor, vs power"..you might have a better picture of the real value of a spell. I think its probably time we just agree to disagree..everything has been said.  We both hope they improve our spells.  Cheers. <div></div>

[Katx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Launcealot wrote:<BR>I do use them, yes.  Thank you for illustrating my point.  You are reducing the evaluation of these spells down to a pure formula of healing vs power.  You are ignoring the other effects which can have a significant contribution yet you are dismissing them by inspection without really knowing either way if they help.   Rensu's post considers the str/sta buff from our heal and simply by inspection dismisses it as "thats a terrible tradeoff...etc".  The fact is, that kind of STR/STA makes a real significant contribution to a fight.  Someone mentioned that they nerfed the amount of extra effect of high STR in the game....well they did that because adding a big chunk of STR to someone has a large and pronounced effect on how hard they hit.  If you were able to (sure..its pretty tough to work the numbers) evaluate a spell on "hp healed, dmg done or dps adjustment factor, vs power"..you might have a better picture of the real value of a spell.<BR><BR>I think its probably time we just agree to disagree..everything has been said.  We both hope they improve our spells.  Cheers.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Parse it out and show us how we're wrong then.  :smileyhappy:  I fail to see how a few seconds of str/sta makes a big difference.  But I'd love to see you prove me wrong.  Perhaps then I could feel a little more optimistic.

[Ver]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><hr>You are ignoring the other effects which can have a significant contribution yet you are dismissing them by inspection without really knowing either way if they help.<hr>I actually fancy myself as a student of the game and am not dismissing them.  I think it is you who are assuming they do help.  We will discuss further in a little bit.<hr>If you were able to (sure..its pretty tough to work the numbers) evaluate a spell on "hp healed, dmg done or dps adjustment factor, vs power"..you might have a better picture of the real value of a spell<hr>I'ts funny you should mention that.  I have already done this.  Lets do some math, shall we?  Maybe this will give you a better picture of the real value of our spells.Ferine Elixer: (Adept3)238 power - 954hp healed - 23 STR and 23 STA for 10 seconds.I tried using this as my main heal last night for 30 minutes.  Group DPS gain, none.  Individual DPS gain, .2%.  Thats not 2% folks, thats .2%.  Perhaps in  a duo situation where the tank has not already reached a soft cap in STR this would perform better, however in a 6 person group, this 10 second buff is truley useless.  I think that is a great tradeoff for an extra 1500hp healed from the warden side....Feral Salve: (Adept3)144 power - 569hp healed - shapechange - 4 AGI - 2%DPS increase - 5% 109 proc.The healing on this can be thrown out since Bloom outheals it at less than half the power cost.  Let's focus on it as a buff then, because thats all it is.  It's not horrible, but far less than our other 15 minute buffs.  I didnt have the mana to keep a group in lion form and test the DPS on this one with all the rest of my buffs.  I did however test it for 30 minutes on a single target.  It added 3.2% DPS.  I think we can agree that it will help, but is not very power efficient.  (since bloodlust adds 6 times the AGI plus 24 STR, and a much better proc at less cost)  I'm not sure that's a good trade off for an extra 1200hp healed with every cast compared to the warden equivelent)Like I said, the sky is not falling.  However, these are your best heals.  One arguably adds nothing, the other is a suboptimal buff which is very mana inefficient and is outhealed by Bloom, my first and last good "heal".  And has the great side effect of turning your party into a pack of male lions.  In short I don't think that heals should be suffering this much for such a tiny effect.  So for a healing class, our HEALS are in need of some work. Verax - 50 Fury - UnrestXarev - 30 Warden - Unrest<div></div><p>Message Edited by Verax on <span class="date_text">03-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Verax on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Launcealot wrote:<BR>I do use them, yes.  Thank you for illustrating my point.  You are reducing the evaluation of these spells down to a pure formula of healing vs power.  You are ignoring the other effects which can have a significant contribution yet you are dismissing them by inspection without really knowing either way if they help.   Rensu's post considers the str/sta buff from our heal and simply by inspection dismisses it as "thats a terrible tradeoff...etc".  The fact is, that kind of STR/STA makes a real significant contribution to a fight. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Just curious on how you figure that a +23 Str/Sta buff for 12 seconds makes just as much of a contribution to the fight as a 1200+ heal?  You accuse us of dismissing them without knowing the facts, so show us your facts.  Show us the proof that a 12 second buff for +23 is as much of a contribution as the health.</FONT></P> <P>Someone mentioned that they nerfed the amount of extra effect of high STR in the game....well they did that because adding a big chunk of STR to someone has a large and pronounced effect on how hard they hit. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And they fixed that, making Str buffs not as valuable as they were before.  Since they did not counter that effect for those spells with a Str buff (by adding any other effects, length of time, etc) - It's safe to say that any spell with a strength buff lost some of it value with that patch... But it didn't affect healing spells at all.</FONT></P> <P>If you were able to (sure..its pretty tough to work the numbers) evaluate a spell on "hp healed, dmg done or dps adjustment factor, vs power"..you might have a better picture of the real value of a spell.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Show us your calculations?  I'm interested in seeing them.  Without them we can easily  turn it around and say "If you can evaluate spells on that criteria, you may find that the buffs do not fully compensate for the loss of healing, even more so with the devaluation of Str."  Show us the math that shows a +23 Str/Sta buff for 12 seconds will prevent 1200 points of damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR>I think its probably time we just agree to disagree..everything has been said.  We both hope they improve our spells.  Cheers.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Agree.  I believe a lot of posts like the OP's get started not because they really feel they are gimped or unplayable, but out of frustration that there seems to be little or no headway being made in getting things fixed.  I've yet to see a post where someone said they hit a brick wall and absolutely could not advance past a certain point in their career.  We all know it's possible to get to 50, and it's possible to main heal... But we also know that we may not do it as effeciently as another class, and apparently someone at SOE agrees since we have been directly mentioned for balancing.  All I gotta say is that I think we've waited long enough, bring on the balancing and fixing already!</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>