The big druid picture (DPS)

[Oakum]

<DIV>Like the heal one but for dps. No matter how much some druids say they dont care about DPS, druids being a Healer/DPS hybrid its the second most important part of a Druids abilities. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fury's have always been able to out dps wardens. Right after LU-13 it was by about the same margin as we outhealed them. Enough to notice but not enough to call unbalanced. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the the KoS and EoF expansions and with the EOF AA's are taken into account, warden DPS is way too low compared to Fury DPS.  Warden DPS needs to be raised. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After trying the CA's line I believe, at least in burst DPS, we can increase are DPS some by using them but not enough to start closing the DPS gap that has grown between druids.  Another issue is that there in not a lot of legendary and above DRUID equipment with STR.  Plus wardens should be able to use two handed sword since we are definitely the "melee" druid class when you combine our EOF AA's and our original mit buff and the KOS AA line supports two handed swords (unless that was put in there just to favor Fury's who are the big nukers). The 2 handed fabled sword that Fury's can use shows that druids can use twohanded swords. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dev's increased the CA's damages and put some decent Druid STR gear and two handed swords or modified existing weapons/equipment to support the wardens meleeing. It should not be necessary to use CA's to make us balanced but since they are part of the reason we are unbalanced, I can accept doing it that way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THERE IS NO NEED TO NERF FURY'S DPS, THEM HAVING THE BEST DPS FOR A PRIEST CLASS IS GOOD. WHAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IS WARDEN DPS BEING TOO LOW AND EVEN BEING LOWER THEN INQUISITORS AND DEFILERS AT LVL 70. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs/debuffs/utility is next post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fromingo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakum wrote:<BR> <DIV>Fury's have always been able to out dps wardens. Right after LU-13 it was by about the same margin as we outhealed them. Enough to notice but not enough to call unbalanced. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>I played a Fury back in the day.  Sadly LU13 turned Furies into nukers but Wardens could do just as much DPS nuking especially with their cold/fire debuff and much faster recasts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the the KoS and EoF expansions and with the EOF AA's are taken into account, warden DPS is way too low compared to Fury DPS.  Warden DPS needs to be raised. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>The CA's just need to be able to go up to 7 AA each so they can be taken to Master I level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another issue is that there in not a lot of legendary and above DRUID equipment with STR.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>Well there's melee equivalent leathers out there. I've found them.  If you mean the druid only type armors then yeah I'd like to see them have a bit more melee type stats mixed in and for the special procs, that add to nuke damage, to work on CA's too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus wardens should be able to use two handed sword since we are definitely the "melee" druid class ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>Agree. At LEAST put Wardens on Pride's Edge and any other weapon Furies can use.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dev's increased the CA's damages ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>Again the</FONT><FONT color=#0099ff> CA's just need to be able to go up to 7 AA each so they can be taken to Master I level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Stormcrest]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Oakum wrote:<div> </div> <div>Plus wardens should be able to use two handed sword since we are definitely the "melee" druid class ...</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#0099ff">Agree. At LEAST put Wardens on Pride's Edge and any other weapon Furies can use.</font></div> <div> </div><div> </div> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Completely agree that Wardens should be able to use 2H swords since we are the melee Druids. If there was only a single one added though, I'd rather see Pride's Edge stay the same and add in a Pack's Edge that is identical, but for Wardens (having a Nature's Ally component similar to the Pride's Edge summoning lions). </div>

[Bobkat]

<DIV>Alright, I am no authority here so I wont even begin to debate... What I am is a casual but long time player (with a level 70 Conjuror) who has recently created a Warden for the first time in my EQ life (EQ1 for 5 years and EQ2 since launch). Please take my comments with a grain of salt because my warden is only level 39 and currently has 29 AA points so I have a LOT of game left to play before I really have a feel for DPS wardens at all level ranges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I am VERY impressed with the DPS abilities of a melee based warden. I am currently geared with all Mastercrafted Str/Agi based Leather armor with 21 points in the CA melee Warden AA line (including the 75% crit hit ability) and 8 points in the STR Druid AA line (4 in str, 3 in the haste proc skill, and 1 to start the tree). I have Master 1 level spells for my major buffs and have chosen Master II heals every time I have a choice. My jewelry is common crafted (I spent all my money on the armor so I could not afford mastercrafted) or quested jewelry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Running Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) while fighting even con mobs in Steamfront Mountains, I am averaging 200+ DPS and killing mobs so fast that I usually only have to heal once per fight. Even when taking on 3 separate even con solo mobs (3 different encounters, not a linked group) I can easily maintain 190dps while healing and curing myself of Ill effects and end the fight with 50% power and full health. I also use Spirit of the Bat totems to help me keep my power regeneration (out of combat) high so I can keep my downtime to a minimum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand everyone's mileage will vary based on driving style/conditions and I also expect to see fluctuations in my personal performance over the level ranges as I attempt to find the right balance of equipment and skill choices, but as it stands today my little warden absolutely amazes me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. This is not intended to start a flame war or argument of any kind.. I am simply posting my personal experience.</DIV>

[Maledan]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div>Like the heal one but for dps. No matter how much some druids say they dont care about DPS, druids being a Healer/DPS hybrid its the second most important part of a Druids abilities. </div> <div> </div> <div>Fury's have always been able to out dps wardens. Right after LU-13 it was by about the same margin as we outhealed them. Enough to notice but not enough to call unbalanced. </div> <div> </div> <div>After the the KoS and EoF expansions and with the EOF AA's are taken into account, warden DPS is way too low compared to Fury DPS.  Warden DPS needs to be raised. </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I agree that Warden DPS needs to be raised... after all, _both_ Druids are supposed to be DPS priests. I don't mind Furies (as the offensive Druid) doing slightly more damage, but this is just wrong:<font color="#66ff00">70 Warden</font> in raid gear:    Winds of Arctic Cold (Adept III)    Power: 222    Casting: 3s    Recast: 16s    <font color="#66ff00">887-1084</font> damage to target encounter <font color="#66ff00">34 Fury</font> in handcrafted gear, with Energy AA line:    Starburst (Adept III)    Power: 297    Casting: 3s    Recast: 15s    <font color="#66ff00">1038-1269</font> damage to target encounter</div>

[Nexiia]

<DIV>This subject is...varying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If by fury dps you mean the furies who do 1200 - 1500 on raids, we CAN do this if we take the time to obtain the gear.</DIV> <DIV>If you mean the furies who do 3k on the parse, it wont happen, and in my opinion , shouldn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We HAVE the capability [as proven before in these forums] to put out large numbers such as 1200-1500, if people take the time to obtain some of the gear more relevant to the style of dps they have assigned to us. The fact of the matter is , furies need alot less gear wise to do the dps they do. HOWEVER , furies do not need any form of nerf, and there is an underlying factor that alot of people aren't considering..As wardens..while meleeing , we can proc heals. Something a Fury cannot do while nuking. This makes us the ultimate hybrid. </DIV> <DIV>Do not forget, we do require DPS and Haste Mod to actually make the dps impressive [as do most scouts].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not speaking out of my rear on this either, I have fully tested it on some of the toughest raid encounters in the game to date. Our fury still does outparse me, But given enough time, we can obtain numbers that ease into 1200+. </DIV>

[Prrasha]

Strangely, in saying "there's really not much of a problem", you've listed out all the problems.to get big DPS, Furies need this:17 AA points (to max spell crits)spell upgrades (can get to Adept3 pretty cheaply, tho I admit Masters are expensive for a flavor-of-the-month class like Furies)+int/+wis gear (very common, this is standard "druid" gear)a +int buff (which a Fury has)while Wardens need this:21+ AA points (to get the combat arts to their max level of... Adept1?)+str/+wis gear (uncommon, wardens generally have to nerf themselves by picking a combo of +str/+agi brawler gear and +wis/+int druid gear... losing out on total +wis vs a Fury, and wasting points on now-useless +int)+DPS (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff)+Haste (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff... but we can spend another 10-15 AA to get a temporary +haste combat art)a +str buff (which a Warden has to get from someone else)After doing all that, the *Fury* has better DPS, to go along with debuff and healing ability that is no worse than the Warden's, and the ability to stand outside melee/AE range?And again, NO ONE IS SAYING FURIES NEED TO BE NERFED. If they are, they're foolish. Since LU13 or so, all of the other priests have gotten incrementally more powerful. Wardens have gone nowhere. We need a boost to catch us up.

[Nexiia]

<P>Its the same deal with mages and scouts, Scouts need alot more item/group based assistance than mages.</P> <P>Mages do not need much and stay out.<BR>Scouts stay in and make up for it via higher mit.</P> <P>This is nothing new to the game.<BR>Furies CAN do more dps, but we can put out numbers very close.</P> <P> </P> <P>----------------------</P> <P>+str/+wis gear (uncommon, wardens generally have to nerf themselves by picking a combo of +str/+agi brawler gear and +wis/+int druid gear... losing out on total +wis vs a Fury, and wasting points on now-useless +int)<BR>+DPS (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff)<BR>+Haste (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff... but we can spend another 10-15 AA to get a temporary +haste combat art)<BR>a +str buff (which a Warden has to get from someone else)<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Adornments. ETC.<BR>i frequently hit 600 self buffed str with only 1 str adorn...    /shrug</P> <P> </P> <P>--</P> <P>ability to heal equally? nuh uh.  every melee attack has a 16-20% chance to heal the group for 400. along with all our regular spells that we can leave ticking while we plow out melee<BR>one of our attacks provides a damage mod buff [nature blade]<BR>we have more mit to deal with the oncoming damage<BR>we retain the ability to nuke if we know there is an aoe coming<BR>we generally have the upper hand on the heals themselves<BR><BR><BR>If used properly, the melee line is absolutely fine for DPS and for that nice extra kick to the healing.<BR>Its just about losing this "oh we're so horrible compared to <insert class>" PoV and just getting the stuff done to make the class into what we want out of it (which varies)</P>

[Goozman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pelarski wrote:<BR>Strangely, in saying "there's really not much of a problem", you've listed out all the problems.<BR><BR>to get big DPS, Furies need this:<BR>17 AA points (to max spell crits)<BR>spell upgrades (can get to Adept3 pretty cheaply, tho I admit Masters are expensive for a flavor-of-the-month class like Furies)<BR>+int/+wis gear (very common, this is standard "druid" gear)<BR>a +int buff (which a Fury has)<BR><BR>while Wardens need this:<BR>21+ AA points (to get the combat arts to their max level of... Adept1?)<BR>+str/+wis gear (uncommon, wardens generally have to nerf themselves by picking a combo of +str/+agi brawler gear and +wis/+int druid gear... losing out on total +wis vs a Fury, and wasting points on now-useless +int)<BR>+DPS (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff)<BR>+Haste (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff... but we can spend another 10-15 AA to get a temporary +haste combat art)<BR>a +str buff (which a Warden has to get from someone else)<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think this specific post is pretty bogus. To get the good numbers a Fury needs:</P> <P>at least 4 4 8 X in INT; the x is for the +disruption skill which is actually pretty significant.</P> <P>5 in killing swarm, 5 in thunderbolt, 5 in tempest (required to get starnova and to unlock energy vortex), 5 in starnova, 1 in energy vortex</P> <P>So that's a minimum of 36 aa's, not 17. And if you really want to maximize dps, add 16 more to finish up the INT line.</P> <P>Wardens would need the 21 you listed + 4 4 8 in STR so it generally requires about the same amount of aa's, Furies a bit more.</P> <P>Now that I've said all that, it's pretty irrelevent, because 36 aa's is are not hard to get by level 40 or so.</P> <P> </P> <P>While EoF was in beta, I agreed that either spell upgrades should be factored into the combat arts, or they should go up to a higher rank... but after seeing several parses from some melee wardens, they are right on well played Fury tail; so I'm not really seeing the problem anymore. Wardens will never be able to reach the ae dps of a Fury; I'm assuming this was intended.</P> <P>If the warden combat arts went up to master 1 level, I would not be surprised if wardens were matching or exceeding Furies in dps again, and much mroe easily, I might add.</P> <P>Also, as someone else mentioned, The melee warden is capable of multitasking much more easily than a Fury who, while trying to max dps, doesn't even have a second to cast anything but damage spells. This kind of results in a weird balance in regular situations; when both classes are healing and doing damage simultaneously, they end up putting out similar numbers.</P> <P>If I were a warden, I'd be pushing for better buffing aa's, 'cuz I just don't see an issue with dps anymore.</P>

[Fingolfin2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nexiia wrote:<BR> <P>Its the same deal with mages and scouts, Scouts need alot more item/group based assistance than mages.</P> <P>Mages do not need much and stay out.<BR>Scouts stay in and make up for it via higher mit.</P> <P>This is nothing new to the game.<BR>Furies CAN do more dps, but we can put out numbers very close.</P> <P> </P> <P>----------------------</P> <P>+str/+wis gear (uncommon, wardens generally have to nerf themselves by picking a combo of +str/+agi brawler gear and +wis/+int druid gear... losing out on total +wis vs a Fury, and wasting points on now-useless +int)<BR>+DPS (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff)<BR>+Haste (not generally found on druid gear, and not something a Warden can buff... but we can spend another 10-15 AA to get a temporary +haste combat art)<BR>a +str buff (which a Warden has to get from someone else)<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Adornments. ETC.<BR>i frequently hit 600 self buffed str with only 1 str adorn...    /shrug</P> <P> </P> <P>--</P> <P>ability to heal equally? nuh uh.  every melee attack has a 16-20% chance to heal the group for 400. along with all our regular spells that we can leave ticking while we plow out melee<BR>one of our attacks provides a damage mod buff [nature blade]<BR>we have more mit to deal with the oncoming damage<BR>we retain the ability to nuke if we know there is an aoe coming<BR>we generally have the upper hand on the heals themselves<BR><BR><BR>If used properly, the melee line is absolutely fine for DPS and for that nice extra kick to the healing.<BR>Its just about losing this "oh we're so horrible compared to <insert class>" PoV and just getting the stuff done to make the class into what we want out of it (which varies)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>put your melee warden  gear on when you log out next so i can inspect you via eq2players so we can see what it takes and what sacrifices need to be made.</P> <P>I have a few pieces but i would be sacrifcing well over 1k power and its nowhere near enough str to make my dps come up to my normal gear just via spells.</P> <P> </P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>You can put out good numbers with a warden I don't see the big issue, I have horrific strength but in the right group setup I can break 1k when im lucky...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge/Zerker/various scouts was the group setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use a one handed sword + the symbol / dps thing from the princes, have an amulet of the forsworn.  I can't hit 600 str self buffed I'm lucky if I can hit half that but despite that I can still put up good numbers in a raid and that's what I want, so I guess when I can get it that high I'll be that much better.</DIV>

[slayerwarrior]

{For warden to be a mele class healer} when u guys think of this one lol. I don't know but in the raiding guild that I was in if u we not max casting range at all times u were not in the guild for very long ><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />! Who wants a healer to mele in a raid setting? IF A WARDEN is a mele dps healer they are broke! Even are gear show that. Are spells and buffs are not even geared up for mele [I cannot control my vocabulary]! WE HAVE str aa line its hteir mostly for looks imho besides were do u get that we are a mele wearing leather healing class that going run up and start to hit a epic ^^^^ LOL. Besides what guild going want u in a raid trying to mele a epic ^^^^????????????This is so funny I'm falling out of my chair!!!! eq2 manual ( Druid are priest of nature drawing their powers from the divine energy of life and the earth. They can heal and purge ailments from their party, and bless their companions with physical ability)We are not a mele dps class or a dps class at all. (Wardens are protectors of the woodland and defenders of the wildlife. They tap into the powers of nature to mend wounds and purge ailments that afflict their allies!)WE ARE THE DEFENCE SIDE OF A DRUID!(Fury harness the powers of storms and tap into ferocity of nature. They command the feral spirits of the wilderness to stregthen and heal their compaions!) FURYS ARE OFFENCES SIDE DRUID.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

oh god who turned on the slayer signal...?ok you wanna know what guild would want a melee warden.. look at nexiia's signature (NPU.. one of the top NA guilds); look at my signature (Fable.. one of the top Euro guilds), and I'm sure there's plenty others. some of the ppl posting here that you're trying to flame are among the top wardens in the game, playing in the top guilds in the game and those guilds(those HARDCORE, top-end guilds) don't give two [I cannot control my vocabulary]s that said wardens are meleeing on raids; in fact, if their raid leaders are anything like my raid leaders, then they're pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] happy to have these wardens on raids pushing out very respectable dps for a non-dps class and not sacrificing their primary role to do it (even going so far as to enhancing their primary role). You've not been around here for how long now? Do you have any clue at all what's up with this class?<div></div>

[T'Pol]

On short encounters its possible to have some nice dps because the casttime is very fast on the meele ca's but in the long run the dps will be equal or lower to the usual spells.Its just not worth the effort in my opinion.<div></div>

[Barand]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:oh god who turned on the slayer signal...?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I guess i m the guilty one here, i called his name during the cure nerf thread <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />now i feel like opening pandora's box <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonrealms wrote: oh god who turned on the slayer signal...? Ok you wanna know what guild would want a melee warden.. look at nexiia's signature (NPU.. one of the top NA guilds); look at my signature (Fable.. one of the top Euro guilds), and I'm sure there's plenty others. some of the ppl posting here that you're trying to flame are among the top wardens in the game, playing in the top guilds in the game and those guilds(those HARDCORE, top-end guilds) don't give two [I cannot control my vocabulary]s that said wardens are meleeing on raids; in fact, if their raid leaders are anything like my raid leaders, then they're pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] happy to have these wardens on raids pushing out very respectable dps for a non-dps class and not sacrificing their primary role to do it (even going so far as to enhancing their primary role). You've not been around here for how long now? Do you have any clue at all what's up with this class? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#6666ff>LOL before  I stop playing my warden I never had problem getting a group even over other healing class u know why? Cause I was one of the best healers on are server had people coming to me help finish quest! Not because wardens are the [I cannot control my vocabulary] because I was a great player and could over come a lot with the fastest computer, connection u could get Lol which help on spike damage a lot.!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6666ff>Were are not a dps char never meant to be! More over we are not even close to be a mele dps char it just show warden grabbing at anything try make them self sound more needed LOL. It's even show more how broke warden class is, are [Removed for Content] buffs, nukes are never going to be mis.  Fury's have better buffs, way better dps , and can heal just as good! Fury's can fit in a raid better from mt group to dps group or even a off tank group</FONT>!</P> <P>Warden can not fit in as good as fury can! If we are not in mt group we really are ABOUT useless!</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Dragonrealms wrote: oh god who turned on the slayer signal...?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#9933ff>This post in trying to change or agi buff to str! If we can not be fix in the right way DON'T MESS US UP EVEN MORE!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#9933ff>WARDEN are protectors of the woodlands and defenders of wildlife. They tap in to POWERS OF NATURE to mend wounds and purge ailments that afflict their allies.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#9933ff>We are a defence class healer not mele ,not dps soe need fix this class! This post in a hole shows we are broke lol. Mele dps warden u guys are grasping at anything!</FONT></P>

[Dragonreal]

Did I ever say I sacrificed being a healer to dps? nope.. I don't sacrifice a thing to do it actually. Healers do have more than a primary role.. all healers have a secondary role as well and whether we like it or not, as a druid type, our secondary role is dps and the devs actually have given wardens a nice way to do dps.. we no longer have to choose between our secondary and primary role.. we can now actually do good dps (no not like a primary dps class.. and no one ever said it would be) without hurting our ability to heal.. unlike the nuking method does; if you want to do worthwhile damage while nuking, it requires doing nothing but nuking.. if you wanna do worthwhile damage while meleeing.. it requires no more than 2-3s of time which we should have to spare in MOST situations.Idk why I'm even trying with you though... you'rea highly closed minded person and won't even consider something if it's not how you think it should be. As far as I've seen.. pretty much everyone on these boards at least gives the melee warden acknowledgment as being viable.. they may not like the idea of it for themselves, but they don't try to deny that it has the potential to work and actualyl does indeed work for those wardens, in all playstyles, willing to put forth the effort for it<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:Did I ever say I sacrificed being a healer to dps? nope.. I don't sacrifice a thing to do it actually. Healers do have more than a primary role.. all healers have a secondary role as well and whether we like it or not, as a druid type, our secondary role is dps and the devs actually have given wardens a nice way to do dps.. we no longer have to choose between our secondary and primary role.. we can now actually do good dps (no not like a primary dps class.. and no one ever said it would be) without hurting our ability to heal.. unlike the nuking method does; if you want to do worthwhile damage while nuking, it requires doing nothing but nuking.. if you wanna do worthwhile damage while meleeing.. it requires no more than 2-3s of time which we should have to spare in MOST situations.Idk why I'm even trying with you though... You're highly closed minded person and won't even consider something if it's not how you think it should be. As far as I've seen.. pretty much everyone on these boards at least gives the melee warden acknowledgment as being viable.. they may not like the idea of it for themselves, but they don't try to deny that it has the potential to work and actualyl does indeed work for those wardens, in all playstyles, willing to put forth the effort for it<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>We are healers (range casters) we wear leather armorer and are no way suited for mele fights or to be in the front line that roll is for tanks, pets! Thats why they have skills, buffs for up close fighting that is their roll. We are to support tanks with heals, buffs, cures.</p><p>Druid are priests of nature, drawing powers from the divine energy of life and earth.They can heal and purge ailments from their party, and bless their companions with enhanced physical ablility.</p><p>In trying to make your self in to a dps char u are taking a healer out of he's roll by saying we should mele. Even a cleric or shamen that wears better armorer don't go in for meleing in a raid setting! fury's are dps classes (casting to) druid we are defense class! pre lu13 we were to good after lu13 we lost are identity. We were made to be defense healer not  dps (fury roll is dps). Only people to blame are wardens them self for losing their true identity for eq2. Why would soe help any wardens if their just want to be like a fury! (dps healer).  If u go back to eq2 booklet read all the classes again. ever class has a dps side and a defense. WE don't have a identity any more we are want be fury's cause if we get anything good everyone will cry and say nerf!</p><p>OUR true identity is defense healer that why i made warden , and most likely 90 to 95% warden made had that thought in their minds or i would have made a fury for dps but dps was the reason why i made a warden it was defense side of druids! People say druids are dps class healer show me 1 quite from soe or in booklet say that both warden and fury's are meant for dps????<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 PM</span><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:01 PM</span><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 PM</span>

[Dragonreal]

We get a self-mit buff, we've had resist buffing since lu13.. we are perfectly fine to go into melee range.. you need to get off this "omg leather armor, i'm such a weakling" bullcrap because last I looked, I had mit on par with the shammys in my guild (and no they're not wearing leather nor was my mit ever something I worried about when bidding on gear). And we ARE druids and dps IS a druid's secondary role.. just because furys are more offensively slated than we are does not mean we do not have dps as a secondary role, nor does it mena furys are any more of a dps class than we are.  We're not the ones who put ourselves in this position.. there's just some of us who are coping with it and doing what we can with what the devs have given us and there are those of us who refuse to accept the fact that the devs are the ones running the show here and THEY'RE the ones who decide what this class is and is not supposed to be and do.They've given us the means ever since lu13 to take quite a beating for a leather wearer, especially compared to our counterpart class.. now they've given us a use for that personal defense. You can't keep looking at the past and saying "that's what we are!1!1" because things change and evolve, especially in a game like this and the fact is this class has changed quite a lot from what it originally was.You keep saying i'm trying to make myself into a dps char.. well I'm not. I'm trying to give my guild the best that my class has to offer for what we do on a day-to-day basis. In my case, that's raids and being able to do whatever my guild needs of me within the limitations of my class is what makes a good raider. I can still push out amazing healing and not one person in my guild would dispute that and in fact they all will claim they very much need me for what I can do healing-wise when things get tough, but things aren't always so tough that my full helaing potential is needed and that's when a secondary role comes into play. Why should I [Removed for Content] my secondary role when most of the raid content requires me to either utilize it or contribute nothing because my healing simply isn't needed for things like trash mobs and the easier raid zones?<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<P>They've given us the means ever since lu13 to take quite a beating for a leather wearer, especially compared to our counterpart class.. now they've given us a use for that personal defense. You can't keep looking at the past and saying "that's what we are!1!1" because things change and evolve, especially in a game like this and the fact is this class has changed quite a lot from what it originally was.</P><P><FONT color=#6633ff>This is why wardens are here  at this point because u except it. I'm sry but furys can fit in to our roles plus into  dps groups. Now can a warden forefull a fury's role as well NO.What needs to be done have one of are wisdom buff change it to int. at least we be able to fit in to dps group plus it will raise our dps. our change a wisdom buff into str but don't pick on agi. We don't need 2 wisdom buff and thats one of are flaws. We should be able give out our wolf form.lu13 nuke wardens we never got rebalance that was needed!</FONT></P><P><FONT color=#6633ff>Ever healer secondary role is to added dps or debuffing. My point is mele should not be the way to it ><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I agree if theirs long fight or aoes we are good but how often is that????????? U know dragonrealm i love reading your post and understand you. Stop picking on the few buffs that are ok pick on extra wisdom buff we have that is useless!</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 AM</span>

[Nexiia]

<P> Lets see if I can sum this up without getting into a debate of how good a warden you are...<BR><BR> your opinion is that we're defending healers who use nature blah blah blah whatever, Alright.<BR><BR>Now, lets see if we can follow this.<BR>We are a Heal over Time based healer -<BR>We are a Spike Healer -<BR><BR>so lets put 2 and 2 together here...</P> <P>You throw your HoTs ...while these are ticking, you throw ALL your melee<BR>this takes approximately 2 seconds. <BR>[your regens will be refreshing]<BR>now, one of the melee attacks throws your attack speed up, which means you have a chance to proc Natural Boon!<BR>a group heal. while your regens are still ticking away.<BR>this means, you're putting out heals in the downtime...<BR>AND damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>I've fought everything in each expansion basically...<BR>the majority of these mobs, I can be in on for some reason.<BR>[<FONT color=#6633ff> My point is mele should not be the way to it</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> ]<BR>Melee is a GREAT way to do this, there are tons of pieces of gear that you can use to make meleeing great<BR>Its Fast, Its Easy and its able to be done on the downtime of regens to proc things like natural boon which add to our healing in a VERY significant manner.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Now, honestly.... Do you seriously think , that us, wardens...a class with a skill like Primitive Instinct [ a melee buff ] that allow us to hit targets so much higher than our level<BR>The increased mitigation we get, the crits, the attack speed, and all the CAs...WHY is melee a bad thing?<BR><BR>I don't know where people get this stuff from.<BR><BR>Its not ACCEPTING it as in EW this sucks im accepting it though, its WOW  this betters my class, I can destroy like this, I'm more useful on a raid, I can handle myself in soloing, I can group up with ease and still be efficient....<BR><BR>we do NOT need to raise our dps...we HAVE dps, it just needs to be unleashed. we do not need more healing, we HAVE healing, its our main priorety, taking melee doesnt make your healing ANY worse unless for some random reason you decide to remove heal crits altogether... </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>I agree if theirs long fight or aoes we are good but how often is that????????? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>  </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>I donno how to explain this, but AoE's occur on EVERY major raid , this is something we can adapt to and the speed of the melee and the way we heal [HoTs] allow for this kind of play.<BR>Long fight, or short fight, we are still amazing, and this line works very well even for the highest end raiding wardens. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff> </FONT></P>

[slayerwarrior]

<FONT color=#9933ff><P>You throw your HoTs ...while these are ticking, you throw ALL your melee this takes approximately 2 seconds. [your regens will be refreshing] now, one of the melee attacks throws your attack speed up, which means you have a chance to proc Natural Boon! a group heal. while your regens are still ticking away. this means, you're putting out heals in the downtime... AND damage.</P></FONT><P><FONT color=#9933ff><FONT color=#ffffff>If your healing and doing that much damage 1 hit ko 1 less healer until u get another healer revive wasting time on bull [I cannot control my vocabulary]! </FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>Any raid guild I know on my server will kick u right out if u are not max casting range! Maybe for some of us it's not a option and right out dumb to have healer in harms way. All this stuff u are talking about help in a group exping or a questing not raids!</FONT></FONT></P><P><FONT color=#9933ff>Now, honestly.... Do you seriously think , that us, wardens...a Class with a skill like Primitive Instinct [ a melee buff ] that allow us to hit targets so much higher than our level</FONT></P><P>Primitive Instinct is single target buff that any good raiding warden gives to Mt lol! If u are giving this to your self I really have to wonder how far u will go try make your self look better O_o. You are not helping the raid with this on your self sorry that IMHO.</P><P><FONT color=#6633ff>I donno how to explain this, but AoE's occur on EVERY major raid</FONT></P><P>How often do u raid O_o???? </P><P><FONT color=#6633ff>Long fight, or short fight, we are still amazing, and this line works very well even for the highest end <FONT color=#ffffff>raiding</FONT> wardens</FONT></P><P>This is why warden will never get fix and will never have any useful tools people like u who will play a mess up char and say your are <FONT color=#ffffff>amazing! If u take pile of crap paint it red mold it in to a flower. It looks very nice but when u bend down to smell that flower it's still smells like pile of crap! Do u understand???? U can try make anything sound good but in the end some times what u have  is just bad.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>02-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[Barand]

You know slayer noone on other server has ever heard of your so called uber guild, whereas every one has heard of NPU as one of the major guild worldwide, so stop pretending you are the best and you know everything. You must be raiding T5 thats why you thing you are uber and that no major raid has AE lol. (hmm Darathar has one beware <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Melee is viable, it gives us more healing and gives us time to DPS in between heal without any harm to our healing ability. Moreover it makes raid less boring than before because we have something to do on trash. <div></div>

[Dragonreal]

How cna anyone have heard of his guild when we don't even know who his char is?  The onyl Aes we cna't go in on usually are proximity-based ones (and in fact just yesterday I was told "go ahead and go in on one, just ge tyour resists up a bit more" by my raid leader). A lot of AEs hit you anyway, even if you ARE at max heal range so if you're gonna get hit anyway, why does it matter if you're 20m away or 5m away (unless it's prox-based like CD)?I really don't get why nuking is just soooo much better than meleeing.. melee is free, melee procs us heals, if you're in mt grp, you're actually gonna get much better melee buffs than you will casting buffs, and CAs cost less power than nukes and don't take as much time/attention to use effectively. Your only argument against it is that it doesn't fit YOUR idea of what a warden is, that we're not a dps class (no [I cannot control my vocabulary], Sherlock.. and netiher is any healer but all hlrs still get ways to do damage), and that "omg I'm so weak cuz I wear leather and I'll just drop dead if the mob so much as thinks of looking me" (absolute bs argument here... I run around at 50%+ mit and any hardcore raider is gonna have no issues getting any resist they need up).It's fine that you don't like the idea of meleeing.. it's fine that it's not for you.. but some of us have recognized the potential it has and there is no reason at all it needs to be trashed just cuz it's not something you'd like. Even those of us who have taken it up, weren't exactly thrilled about it to begin with but once we started using it and seeing what could be done with it, we see it's not as crackpot of an idea as we all thought it would be back in beta. Yes it needs some fine-tuning still, especially the gear selection, but it does uniquely enhance us and it does take advantage of our strengths in an interesting way (except for not meshing with our roots but hey.. versatility is always good).<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iranos wrote:<BR>You know slayer noone on other server has ever heard of your so called uber guild, whereas every one has heard of NPU as one of the major guild worldwide, so stop pretending you are the best and you know everything.<BR>You must be raiding T5 thats why you thing you are uber and that no major raid has AE lol. (hmm Darathar has one beware <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )<BR><BR>Melee is viable, it gives us more healing and gives us time to DPS in between heal without any harm to our healing ability.<BR>Moreover it makes raid less boring than before because we have something to do on trash.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um i never said what guild i was in OR IT WAS EVEN uber THATS YOUR OWN WORDS NOT MINE. Before another server add it's players it was Resin which was number 1 but that was at least a yr ago. Now it zodiac knights not hard core raid guild but very good family guild also rank 5 on bazaar. One of the top raiding guild on bazaar won't even let a warden in their guild only fury's, shamen's, cleric's.</P> <P>Iranos  it's Funny u attack me personal!   u mele so you are  not bored how is it not boreing to click on a mob to watch your warden mele attack a mob? no skill in  clicking and watching your warden jump up and down on a mob. But key words is trash mobs and for trash mobs most likely u don't even need full raid mybe not even 2 groups for most trash raid mobs! What u do when u are doing hard core raid mobs?  um mybe u are at max casting range and what little your mele and procs do become USELESS!</P> <P>Just another way trying make wardens sound better then what they are in raids which is imho useless and fury's can do are job 90 to 95% time just as good or better. plus they can be move to a dps group and add very nice buffs plus dps! Next time u personal attack me read my post first and don't add words.</P>

[slayerwarrior]

<p>How cna anyone have heard of his guild when we don't even know who his char is?</p><p><font color="#6633ff">First it's not my guild! sec i told u over 7 months ago my char name if u like to look  in one of my old post Go ahead.</font></p><p>The onyl Aes we cna't go in on usually are proximity-based ones (and in fact just yesterday I was told "go ahead and go in on one, just ge tyour resists up a bit more" by my raid leader). A lot of AEs hit you anyway, even if you ARE at max heal range so if you're gonna get hit anyway, why does it matter if you're 20m away or 5m away (unless it's prox-based like CD)?</p><p><font color="#6633ff">20m is wrong more like 25m and u can avoid being hit by most aoes. being up close to the raid mobs u don't need a ae to hit u he can just smack u and tank well never get chance to use rescues</font></p><p>omg I'm so weak cuz I wear leather and I'll just drop dead if the mob so much as thinks of looking me.</p><p><font color="#6633ff">most likely with epic ^^^^ your right u will be dead with mt never having a chance to save u.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"> </font>some of us have recognized the potential it has and there is no reason at all it needs to be trashed just cuz it's not something you'd like</p><p><font color="#6633ff">Sorry if u think i'm trying trash it, but to take agi away and add str no way. Take a wisdom buff.</font></p><p>Yes it needs some fine-tuning still</p><p><font color="#6633ff">SORRY if anything need to be tune it's  our buffs and few spells we have. not gear thats just waste of time. </font></p>

[Barand]

Ok lets make a list on every T7 named Labs : Melee on every named except the DS one. Lyceum : Melee on every named except the eye HoS : Melee on every named except the basilic Harla/Gore : Melee Talendor : Ranged (as everyone else) DT : Melee on every named except the gnome Cheldrak : ranged CMF : Melee FTH : Melee except on treyloth Mistmoor : Melee except majong Emerald Hall : We havent got much time to do it So in each zone there is only 1 fight that melee is not viable every other named fight you get benefit for melee. even if most of them have AE. <div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

Dude if u are happy click on a mob watching hem jump up and down go for it. Just stop trying to take agi buff away. U want pick on something pick on a wisdom buff. Not like it will matter their not going to do anything anyways.I more enjoy trying to have skill and good combo of spells. I don't enjoy a click on mob watch myself jump up and down relying on procs and auto attack. Sorry!

[MullenSkywatcher]

<div></div>I think the draw of the melee setup is that it has the potential to add to our healing rather than subtract from it.  Directly, from the 450ish group heal in Natural Boon (KoS STR AA, level 4), and indirectly in the ability to dps without interrupting heals with long casting nukes (autoattack + .5 sec CAs in the EoF line).  The healing of this setup can't be any less unless you spec out of the STA line, which I havent heard of anyone doing.The arguement currently is that the dps value of the STR line vs the INT line is much lower due to the difficulty in raising STR, which isnt a stat that we can buff or find on the high end EoF set gear.  Since AGI seems to provide the weakest beneft, the suggestion (and only a suggestion) was to change the spells we have that buff AGI to STR, or if this was too great a change, provide a self STR buff.  Those of us who have gone the melee route would like to see some STR added to the EoF sets, although if you specced STA/INT that gear is great.Since none of the proposed ideas would seem to affect the way you currently play your warden, I'm unclear at what is causing your vehement objections.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MullenSkywatcher on <span class=date_text>02-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

<div><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:Dude if u are happy click on a mob watching hem jump up and down go for it. Just stop trying to take agi buff away. U want pick on something pick on a wisdom buff. Not like it will matter their not going to do anything anyways.I more enjoy trying to have skill and good combo of spells. I don't enjoy a click on mob watch myself jump up and down relying on procs and auto attack. Sorry!<hr></blockquote>Have you even LOOKED at the warden eof AAs? We're not getting 1k+ dps and still fufilling all healing duties by just auto-attack; there's a tree in the warden eof AAs that give us an alternative version of our nukes that are melee attacks and take less than 3s of time to use. So.. let's recap.. i can go int line, stand at 20m (single target regne last I checked is 20m range, not 25m), and spend all my time chain-nuking to hit 700-800 dps IF and only IF I NEVER have to heal.. or... I can go into melee range once the mob is positioned, throw out every single attack we have and be ready to throw up my regen before the wards have worn off, netting me a nice 900-1k+ dps number without ever hurting either my ability to heal or push out the dps my class is capable of.And before you even bother.. no this is not me trying ot be a dps class. This is me looking a tthe options I have available and saying hmm.. well I do have to dps a  lot on raids since most of them are so easy to heal anyway, but in the oh crap situations, the melee method DOES have a very big advantage to the nuking method: much much less time investment to get greater dps gains versus nuking. And guess what! With a simple gear switch, I can STILL nuke and still push out only marginally lower dps numbers than what I used to do with the int line when I do have to nuke.Why don't you come back with actual counterpoints to all the pros that I and many others have cited for this playstyle, rather than regurgitating the same outdated crap over and over again? We're not in t5 anymore! WoF is naught but a distant memory and yes, while our class has problems, this particular issue really isn't one of them aside from the lack of gear to support this type of play.</div>

[Dragonreal]

<div><blockquote><hr>MullenSkywatcher wrote:<div></div>I think the draw of the melee setup is that it has the potential to add to our healing rather than subtract from it.  Directly, from the 450ish group heal in Natural Boon (KoS STR AA, level 4), and indirectly in the ability to dps without interrupting heals with long casting nukes (autoattack + .5 sec CAs in the EoF line).  The healing of this setup can't be any less unless you spec out of the STA line, which I havent heard of anyone doing.<hr></blockquote>I've specced out of sta line but that's only cuz I've been die-hard agi fan ever since KOS =p The absolute best healing setup would be agi + sta but since raids really never require that kind of healing power from a warden, that's a moot point. All you really need is one "main" healing line (ie agi OR sta) and then one of the dps lines (str or int); and if you go str line, the 16% heal proc makes up just fine for lack of heal crits (16% grp heal proc or ~16% heal crits.. neither are guaranteed, which is why i prefer agi as my healing line since I can ALWAYS count on it to increase my healing, and both are fairly comparable to each other in usefulness imo).</div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div> </div> <div>After trying the CA's line I believe, at least in burst DPS, we can increase are DPS some by using them but not enough to start closing the DPS gap that has grown between druids.  Another issue is that there in not a lot of legendary and above DRUID equipment with STR.  Plus wardens should be able to use two handed sword since we are definitely the "melee" druid class when you combine our EOF AA's and our original mit buff and the KOS AA line supports two handed swords (unless that was put in there just to favor Fury's who are the big nukers). The 2 handed fabled sword that Fury's can use shows that druids can use twohanded swords. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>yes..... give wardens two handed swords... qeynos claymore here i come.good points in this post, and good discusion from what i've read. nothing that hasn't been said before, but nice to see it all being brought together. maybe someone "important" will read it. <span>:smileytongue:</span></div>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MullenSkywatcher wrote:<div></div>I think the draw of the melee setup is that it has the potential to add to our healing rather than subtract from it.  Directly, from the 450ish group heal in Natural Boon (KoS STR AA, level 4), and indirectly in the ability to dps without interrupting heals with long casting nukes (autoattack + .5 sec CAs in the EoF line).  The healing of this setup can't be any less unless you spec out of the STA line, which I havent heard of anyone doing.<hr></blockquote>I've specced out of sta line but that's only cuz I've been die-hard agi fan ever since KOS =p The absolute best healing setup would be agi + sta but since raids really never require that kind of healing power from a warden, that's a moot point. All you really need is one "main" healing line (ie agi OR sta) and then one of the dps lines (str or int); and if you go str line, the 16% heal proc makes up just fine for lack of heal crits (16% grp heal proc or ~16% heal crits.. neither are guaranteed, which is why i prefer agi as my healing line since I can ALWAYS count on it to increase my healing, and both are fairly comparable to each other in usefulness imo).</div><hr></blockquote>Your intelligent counterpoint now has me considering the AGI line in a new light.  Gah!  Logic makes the Mullenn's brain hurt!  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Barand]

I have too drop the STA for AGI, not because of the regen (nice addition however) but  for the anti AE spell. <div></div>

[Ba]

<p>Is this "slayerwarrior" guy on some kind of meds? If not, I have some good ones I can recommend for him.</p><p>I'm kinda glad he lives in in the Warden forum and not the Fury forum <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>To slayerwarrior:-</p><p>Dude. Take a chill pill and come down to reality one second. You have two very experienced raiding Wardens telling you the melee spec works for DPS while raiding and doesn't detract from your healing abilities while doing. What more do you need to worry about?</p><p>If you wanna stand at max range and heal/nuke then go ahead and do so. Nothing <u>forcing</u> you down the melee route *shrugs*.</p><p>Warden has always been the defensive side of Druid. With EoF they've decided to give you the option of being the melee specialized (aka mini-scout) Druid too. Furies got the option of becoming the nuke specialized (aka mini-wizard) Druid via the Energy line.</p><p>They did the same with the two Shaman classes (Mystic gets to spec melee and Defiler gets to spec spell damage)</p>