Warden in MT Group?

[Andrewlius]

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[Andrewlius]

OK, I dunno how that happened, but I somehow made an empty post.  Anywho... I had a question for all the raiding Wardens out there.  Our guild normally raids with Templar/Defiler as healers in the MT group, Dirge, Coercer and Crusader for the mit bonus.  However, I see a lot of other guilds going with 3 healers in the MT group, specifically a Warden, which is something our guild (for one reason or another) really hasn't done since T5.  So, my question is...What is the benefit of having a Warden as the 3rd healer in the MT group?  Aside from the obvious heat/cold resists and extra heals?  I'm sure the better group heals would be nice as well.  Obviously, I don't play a healer, so I was just curious if some of you guys could give some insight on this subject.  Thanks in advance.  <div></div>

[gita]

There its a old post on same discussion, was animated one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=17764" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=17764</a><div></div>

[Andrewlius]

Excellent, thanks very much! <div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<DIV>Since then we've changed how we raid though.  I'm never in group 1 anymore.  We only run 6 healers so we have cleric and shaman with the tank and backup tank, then a druid for group healing in both dps groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, here's what you should do.  Get the tank to 6k mitigation.  If you can't do this with a warden in G1 then take them out for a crusader or conj.  Conj > crusader if there are avoidable aoes, if not then crusader > conj.  Crusaders run into aoes so soak up healing for the tank.  If you can hit 6k mitigation without a mitigation buffer and have enough healers go with a warden in G1.  That's how we run things and we do OK for a casual raiding guild.</DIV>

[Sorano]

<P>If your MT and raid are not well geared then your MT group should be as defensive as possible, which IMO is warrior/cleric/shaman/druid/crusader/dirge. I don't understand why people put a coercer/dirge combo in the MT group and choose to drop the druid for a crusader if their raid is not properly geared. It's lke trying to run before you learned to walk. Worry about survivabilty first before aggro control. Nothing beats a 3 healer MT group for survivability, especially considering that druids have the best ae heals in the game and a poorly equipped MT group is going to take a lot of damage. </P> <P>As your raid and tank gets better equipped, then you should start worrying about aggro control and consider switching out the crusader for the coercer. </P> <P> </P>

[frostbane]

<DIV>our guild still runs with the warrior/cleric/shaman/druid/dirge/coercer setup.  The warden isn't always there for any manner of buffs or any such thing.  The shaman, and cleric do a good job of healing, but the warden brings the best group heals in the game, and when that cleric and shaman start taking damage a warden will rock at keeping them up (and therefore their buffs on the MT).  Second while the cleric/shaman keep reactive/wards up the warden can stay on top of the curing!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes buffs just do matter, for instance in my guild currently the only 2 healers with master 1 group mitigation buffs are our wardens (bad luck for finding decently priced ones on our server or dropping them).  That there is a leg up for me right there, second it's tough to argue when at raids end tranquilizing spores heals for 80k+ (depending on zone, our first trip into DT it healed like 200k)!  Sometimes having an extra 180 or so wisdom and 670 or so power (aspect + benediction) is nice for a tank, especially on fights that require higher resists (ie talendor when raid has to joust an AE out of heal range, or tarinax)!</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I parsed out how much damage Tarinax was hitting for in autoattack with a warden vs a crusader in G1.  Our tank only gets to 5900 mitigation with no mitigation buffer.</P> <P>With a crusader in G1 tarinax's average melee hit was 2518.44  - Guard, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Assassin and Crusader</P> <P>With a warden in G1 tarinax's average melee hit was 3353.58 - Guard, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Assassin and Warden</P> <P>There will be some variance because it's a small sample, but this is the difference we found from a crusader's mitigation buff.</P>

[Sorano]

Why persist with the assassin in there? Aggro managment is going to be the lease of your worries if your tank has only 5.9K mitigation WITH priest buffs. Survivability should be your main focus. Tarinax is going to memblur no matter how much aggro you try to put on your MT. The rest of the raid should just be prepared to deal with it.  And FYI we do Tarinax with 6 healers, 3 of whom are in the MT group.

[Chepi]

I play a warden in a raiding guild and alot of times I do find myself as the third healer in the MT group + I have alot of resists so even as a leather healer I can sometimes withstand an ae as where another might not. If you want to be in a MT group in  a raiding guild my suggestions is as follows: 1.) Make sure for each encounter you have the proper resists gear. Heat and Cold seem to be the most important, but would make sure you are maxed for each type of encounter on resists. 2.) Make sure that all your spells are either Master's or Adept 3's (this is important). 3.) Try to balance your gear with enough flowing throught that you regen mana effectively. 4.) If you dont make the MT group bah who cares watch the parse's 9 times out of 10 if all your heals are Master's or Adept's You can out heal the whole raid of healers. Our regen heals Rock! If your officers dont parse heals get yourself your own parser and watch your heal totals. Also remember we do have some good nukes specially if they are Master's or Adepts.. Have fun raiding! <div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I think having the coercer/dirge combo in G1 is important.  Dps has to hold back too much without it.  I'd say it's impossible to clear labs in an hour and a half without it or hit 20k dps.</P> <P>About hitting 6k mitigation.  It's not that easy to hit 6k.  Our tank has the DT hat and the rest relic or equivalent from other zones.  He wears the CoP too.  He doesn't have his defensive stance master, no healers have their mitigation buff master in G1, the band of the cause has never dropped for us in all the times we've cleared HoS.  Then bam, 5300 or so mitigation self buffed and 5900 mitigation with the healer mitigation.  The adept 3 only adds 621 or so.</P> <P>I would also say unless you're very poorly geared mobs are easier with coercer + dirge in G1 too.  Dps makes mobs easier, it's not just healers who win raids.  The faster a mob drops the less chance of something going wrong, be it frontaling the raid, high crit, invalidation going off, etc...</P>

[Dragonreal]

if any one fo your healers gets the mit buff m1, there's your 6k mit right there ;p<div></div>

[frostbane]

<P>I'm confused.  It's hard to hit 6k mit without using a crusader or conj in MT group?</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

For us it has been.  All zones drop gear with about the same mitigation as relic gear.  Then with relic gear your tank can only hit about 5k mitigation self buffed without good accessories.  The exception to this is DT.  DT drops all the good tank gear.  I've heard people say you can hit 6k mitigation with just relic gear but that's BS.  It's a lot harder to hit 6k mit then people make it out to be.  Add onto that tanks have to sometimes swop in resists gear for certain mobs and it's really hard.

[Sorano]

Our MT has over 6k mit SELF buffed so no priest buffs involved. I find it strange that you are struggling to get to 6k mit with priest buffs. When you first start raiding both your tank and dps will need to gear up. You won't need to put a coercer/dirge in the MT group because your dps won't really be consistantly pulling aggro of your MT as their gear will not allow it. Survivabilty should be your main priority not aggro control. And why would you even want to attempt to put a time limit on how fast you clear Labs if you are just starting out. Once again learn to walk before you try to run!

[LardLord]

<P>Er...nevermind.</P><p>Message Edited by LardLord on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 PM</span>

[frostbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> For us it has been.  All zones drop gear with about the same mitigation as relic gear.  Then with relic gear your tank can only hit about 5k mitigation self buffed without good accessories.  The exception to this is DT.  DT drops all the good tank gear.  I've heard people say you can hit 6k mitigation with just relic gear but that's BS.  It's a lot harder to hit 6k mit then people make it out to be.  Add onto that tanks have to sometimes swop in resists gear for certain mobs and it's really hard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't know abotu full relic, but until recently our guard was in relic/doomrage gear and using the CoP.  Aviak feather charm for a wrist item, and some chitin rings should get your tank up there.  </P> <P>Maybe some gear pieces don't drop for you guys as much as us (all our tanks and all our tank alts have the draconic deflector from the forgewright, and the other shield from wither the corsolander or the guy right before him).  But we just recently dropped our relic plate helm, and relic chest (within last 2 weeks), and our first band of the cause was 2 weeks ago.</P> <P>Our tank has been over 6k for a long time now, and so have 3-4 other tanks in guild, but we have a healthy MT rule to our DKP system, and our guilds MT used it and geared up, the rest of the tanks bought it for DKP, but it proves it can be done!</P> <P>Also before i joined the guild and brought my M1 mit buff to the guild, the guild went out and spent 20 some plat to get the other warden a master 1 mit buff just because we needed it!</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I guess if you're starting out going defensive is good.  We aren't.</P> <P>Hth can you hit 6k mit self buffed?  Your tank must have all the DT drops and all the best gear in game for that.  For us the only DT drop we have is the Ichor Thorax and that's it.  Even then we're hardly starting out, like I said we clear HoS, Labs and are working on DT every week.  Both our tanks are also in buckler line, so no draconic deflector for us.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>10-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[civilgeek]

I have never understood the mitigation issue and the trade off for warden vs conjcrusader. Frankly, if your tank is not getting one shotted... you should have a warden in the MT group. The difference is that a warden can out heal the 600 mitigation increase easily if they have adept III's heals or better. Keep your group regen up... and your single target and you have already surpassed the savings by the miti buff. I have played for both of the top guilds oasis, and each played opposite the other in this strat... and I can safely say that the MT group survivability is vastly improved with a warden in the MT group. With the power regen in the MT and the efficiency we have inherently we can keep a single target regen and our group heal up for the duration of most epic battles and in a pinch use our single target instants to save the day... not to mention spores and our boost to resists. In addition, if there are heroics in the mix we can throw sandstorm for the stuns to save the tank in a pinch. Wardens pure healing power is unmatched by any other class. Haldir tops the heal parces in most every T7 raid instance… you put that kind of power in the MT group and its magical. Haldir70 Warden, Oasis<p>Message Edited by civilgeek on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>All a warden adds to G1 is deathsaves (2 more), 66 agi, emergency group heals, wisdom which equates to more resists and they can cast their group hot plus spores.  That's it.  For us it's a cost/benefit to having a warden in G1 or not.  The solo hot can be cast from any group and so can all the direct heals.</P> <P>So we run with a secondary tank too.  The secondary tank is there for if the tank drops at any time during the fight, or for 2 tanking encounters.  We run Defiler and Templar in G1, Defiler and Inquisitor in G2, Warden in G3 and Fury in G4.  Each group needs a healer and if we put a warden in G1 we wouldn't be able to buff up our 2nd tank for hps.  You can argue that there's no need to buff up a 2nd tank, but that's another point altogether.  We've had a lot of success with a 2nd tank especially in zones like HoS.  So with our setup there's not really any choice to put a warden in the MT group.</P> <P>Then there's the point of why would we.  We've tried lots of different things in the past to see what works too.  We used to run with a Warden in G1 but have gone the other way and taken him out.  I use parsers to check how different setups affect how we do.  </P> <P>So here's an example for a mob like Tarinax.  If you read my previous post a crusader's mitigation buff is > then anything a warden can contribute.  When we tried with a warden in G1 Tarinax's autoattack damage went up significantly.  This is also something that can't be offset by more healing.  If you get 2 large hits in a row the speed of healing makes no difference.  The tank will be dead.  Our total resists is equal to 1 nox resist ring that the tank can put on.  So it's either a warden in G1 and the tank keeps a 65 mit ring on or you put a crusader in G1 for 400 mit and put one extra nox ring on.  The choice is pretty easy.  The agi we add is negligible because avoidance means nothing vs an orange.  So really it's group hot, death saves, emergency heals with a warden vs 800 less autoattack average hit damage with a crusader.  We've killed him both ways but it was a lot easier with a crusader in G1.</P> <P>I mean to me it seems obvious.  A lot of raid leaders still go warden in G1 because they've always had a warden in G1 so they've never bothered to check what's best and parse it out.  Or they hear X guild does it this way so so will we because they're more ubber then us.  For us we've tried everything and crusader > warden for G1.  If we ever get to a point where our current 5300 mit tank hits 6k self buffed, if it's possible, then we'll prob put a warden back in G1 but for now what we're doing is the best choice.</P>

[gita]

<blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<p>I mean to me it seems obvious.  A lot of raid leaders still go warden in G1 because they've always had a warden in G1 so they've never bothered to check what's best and parse it out. </p><hr></blockquote>Depend how our raid do the things, u can have very diferent setups and both can work, and both can parse "good" <span class="postbody"> Allies: (06:22) 676256 warden | 169740 | 25% defiler | 114886 | 16% templar | 98532 | 14% mystic | 81379 | 12% templar | 69736 | 10% </span><span class="postbody"> Allies: (09:40) 1065095 warden | 206328 | 19% defiler | 192074 | 18% templar | 190338 | 17% Inquis | 179971 | 16% mystic | 134642 | 12% that both heal parses are from two "kills" on "high end" raid mobs atm.  the warden was in the mt group <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Corie]

Usually when i reach the top of the heal parse its because the raid mobs are chewing through the shamens wards like they aren't there and the MT is taking a beating.  Thats why i'm not a fan of the heal parse, druids HoT are the last to get thru after shamen wards, cleric reactives...

[frostbane]

<DIV>You also forget that other then just some agi, and such wardens bring the best group heals in the game to a MT group.  If your shammy/cleric take an AE or some such and bite it the MT loses their better buffs.  We put a warden in MT group to keep the people who actually provide good MT buffs alive. In our raids, when we were starting out we RARELY wiped because our tank died, it was usually adds getting loose from an overactive DPS or some such and wiping DPS.  Once we we got the DPS settled down and zones figured out, we just bull rush through them and our wardens usually rank 1 and 3 on the heal parse!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also we use our paladin in an off group to put amends on a DPS so they can do more damage!  Or if we decide to run with a off-tank group we use the paladin in that group for the mit because off tank group usually runs with only 2 healers!</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well being the healer for the healers sounds good but really it isn't necessary.  I'm trying to think of an encounter where there might be a need for more then the cleric shaman combo for group healing but I don't think there is one.  Think of it this way.  With a warden you can heal faster but with a cleric and shaman you can heal just as well, it's just the hps don't go up as fast.  If a cleric and shaman wasn't enough to group heal a group then dps groups would be dying left right and center.</P> <P>We generally use an SK for the last spot in G1.  They buff a bit of stamina for group and while it's not much, it'll cap your tank.  It offsets the 321 hps that druids buff so with an SK you get the same hp pool.  The other bonus is the dirge + coercer combo is good for the SK's dps.  They get the dps mod and int from the coercer and CoB from the dirge meaning even though they're helping in a defensive way they can still pump out some good damage.... about 900 dps which is good for an SK.</P>

[Sorano]

<P>If you only go cleric/shaman in the main tank group, it puts a lot of pressure on the shaman to heal. That's not what they should be focusing on. A shaman's main job is to keep a mob debuffed. If nothing else a warden in the MT group gives the defiler breathing room to keep debuffs up without them having to worry about healing the tank. BTW jousting is something dps groups have to do because they don't have the buffs to survive AEs and has nothing to do with whether a shaman/cleric combo can keep a MT group up against AEs. SOE certainly don't use a single healer DPS group as a baseline for mob AE's as any group with more than 2 healers in it will totally trivialise the AE.</P> <P>I would like to see you try to beat Chel'drak with no druid in your MT group.</P>

[gita]

<blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<p>I would like to see you try to beat Chel'drak with no druid in your MT group. </p><hr></blockquote>Or Direvine Matron, that are the two parses i posted before, its on orange raid mobs when druids show the power, cause its the only mobs who do enough damage to see it, wards and reactives are not enough and there is where druids excel. Druids its all abouth get Hp replenished (patch healing) and the best AE healing in game. But also when some ppl say a cleric and shaman its enough on MT group, a druid can say.... or cleric and druid... or shaman and druid.. Cause really in 75% raid mobs if our tank its good geared and the overall dps hight, who cares abouth healing when kill Harla Dar or mobs like that ? even on only 2 healers that ones have time to debuff and dps, cause tank not even get damaged. PS: mike u can have 2nd tank and druid in mt group also <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Our goal is to beat Chel'drak before the expansion hits.  We'll see if we can take her and we're going to go in to try soon.  I know for that one you need dps to joust but everything for everything KoS you don't need to joust any encounter.</P> <P>Btw, it's not just us who doesn't use a druid in G1.  Second dawn and Eternal Chaos? both said before they don't use a druid in G1 before.   Whether they do for Matron or Chel'drak is another thing altogether.  There was a similar discussion about wardens in G1 before and both guilds said they didn't use a Warden in G1.</P>

[civilgeek]

I know a lot of people play without wardenfury out of the MT group, however, it most definately hurts the survivability of the MT group. I've played both ways. Even if the parces show a hit savings of 800 on auto attack with crusader in group... a well equiped warden is throwing well over a 1000 every two seconds to the MT alone. Warden's single target at M1 is 433-530 every two seconds and his group heal M1 is 449-548 every two seconds... combined that is on average 980 points healing every two seconds sustained. This is not including any benifit from spores (113-276 every 2 seconds) and our 20% chance to crit, claymore item (20% increase to base heal), etc. and omg when all that combines our heal goes off the charts into the 1500 range every 2 seconds on MT alone. In addition, what whipes the MT group is AEs on the healers and Wardens Group heal is unmatched for AE hits. When a warden is out of MT he is stuck with 3 heals (not including saves). Got single target regen, and two single target instants which eat power. So the wardens sustained output is limited to about 480 every 2 seconds on the MT. When in group you can add AE Regen, AE instant, and spores. Now if MT takes a large hit I've got 1k ticking on him every two seconds min and I can throw both my instants (group and single) within 2.5 seconds to give him a total of over 2500 health. Warden's excel at pure healing and at quick recovery... thats what makes them valuable in MT. The warden just needs to be on hisher toes.

[Elephanton]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> civilgeek wrote:<BR>claymore item (20% increase to base heal) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What are you reffering to here?<BR>

[Dam]

Well, I really can't speak for everyone, but, in our raids a Warden [ very rarely a Fury ] is consistently 100% of the time in the MT group.  I'm on a PVP server, [ Freeport side ] so we only have half of the classes available to us.  Usually our MT class set up is .. Dirge, Warden, Defiler, Assassin, Gaurdian and Bruiser/SK/Coercer/VERY VERY VERY VERY RARELY Inquisitor [ interchangeable. ]   Druids, because of the style of healing -- which has been stated before -- is more about filling hp back up that's missing and replenishing HP overall.  On mobs, again, like Chel'Drak, Matron, and even some mobs in Lycuem/Deathtoll .. Wards and Reactives just don't cut it and the Druid class really shines.  You figure Greater Chloroplast, Chloroplasm, Spores, Verdant Bliss, and Sylvan Streams regen effects, which, almost all the time are active ( or should be, or you fail ) and the actual HP replenishing effects of Bliss/Streams as a whole, not to mention our second group heal if it's needed, for different encounters -- we're constantly filling up HP.  It's almost a gaurenteed if the MT Warden is doing their job on the orange raid mobs and even some of the yellow, we're #1 on heal parses ( at least from a Freeport halfassed perspective. )Granted this all comes from the fact that, we don't have Templars and Mystics as far as healers go.  I really can't comment, but as previously stated.  We usually run with Shaman/Druid .. I don't think I've ever seen out MT group not have those two classes.  For a PVP server, half-classed basis .. Inquisitors really don't get any love. =/<div></div>

[civilgeek]

It is the Arm of Erollisihttp://eq2.ogaming.com/db/items/TheArmofErollisi.php

[Illustrious]

<P>think having the coercer/dirge combo in G1 is important.  Dps has to hold back too much without it.  I'd say it's impossible to clear labs in an hour and a half without it or hit 20k dps.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Thats strange we seem to be able to clear Labs F.ex in about 45 mins with only a dirge in MT grp and regularly hit 20 up to 23k dps depending on encounter. We also clear every instance in game each week (apart from cheldrak because we normally had only 2 fighters on, got a couple more now so hopefully soon!) so it is definatly NOT impossible at all.</P> <P>We tend to have 3 healers, assasin,dirge and tank for 90% of the time but occasionally swap about a bit depending on specific encounters in the harder zones.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>So you zonewide 20-23k dps?</P> <P>The question about whether dirge + coercer was best in G1 came up with whether it's best to have 2 hate increasers in G1.  All you're doing is replacing the coercer with an assassin but it has almost the same effect.  Look through the thread and it's about 2 hate increasers in G1 or 1.  With Tank, Temp, Defiler, Dirge, Warden and Crusader (or 1 hate increaser) I'm possitive you can't zonewide 20k dps.  I'm not even sure if you can hit 20k in one encounter.</P> <P>Last time we cleared Labs there were 37466380 hps.  So zonewiding 20k makes the fight time 31 mins so I guess it's doable in 45 mins.  In labs our zonewide goes down a lot and we're at more like 16k or less so we're more at 45 mins fight time and we can comfortably do it in an hour and a half.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 AM</span>

[Judist]

<P>Don't get me wrong, the sheer healing ability of a warden is immense... but if your outparsing the MT's defiler you either need 1) a parser that shows wards,  2) need a new defiler, or 3) better resist gear for the rest of the raid</P> <P>I can easilly debuff between the recast of both wards (single/group) so I have plenty of time to do both. The only time I'm outhealed is during the first 15-30 seconds of a named encounter, when spike damage is at it's worst and wards are soaked up in 1-hit, leaving me waiting on recast timers. </P> <P>After the raids+my debuffs are in, I'm practically solo healing (warding) thru the rest of the encounter. Anything missed is picked up by the clerics reactives.</P> <P>The only thing I could think of is maybe some wardens are parsing higher by healing the rest of the raids damage taken via AoE's... in which case ya'll might need some better resist gear as we dont have much of a problem in that aspect. </P> <P>Shamans should parse #1 always, not because were better... but because damage is mitigated by wards>reactives>direct</P> <P>As for having a warden in the MT group? </P> <P>I AA spec'd "Ritual of Alacrity" just for our MT warden. It's a 30 second spell haste (33% faster cast/reuse/recast) buff I cast on him before a pull. This makes him a healing GOD for the first 30 seconds of a fight. With this the MT never goes down on pulls, thus making that warden invaluable.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Jayad]

If the MT is undergeared, the warden could also be parsing pretty high.  But otherwise, I'd think it's weird for a warden to heal parse really high without a lot of AOE.  On our raids, the warden parses way way lower than defiler and templar.

[civilgeek]

<DIV>It's all AE... shamans and clerics rock at protecting the main tank, however, when epic ae's hit the raid... the wards normally drop and the templars single reactive doesn't usually bring the group back to the green (defiler's wards get stomped by ae's. At master 1 the most Bulwark will ward is 557 per member. This is as much as one tick of a warden group regen... so if we tick twice we just doubled your heal parce). The warden is there to pick up where the other healers left off by keeping hisher group regen up the duration of the fight and using their instant group heal when necessary. This also has the side effect of allowing the other two healers to concentrate on the MT without needing to fear for the rest of the group. As far as undergeared tank and raiders that just isn't the case, not here anyways.  </DIV>