Has anyone else checked out the new parse healing with wards yet?

[Shennr]

<DIV>I am just wanting to get some other people's parses from raids after this LU went in today. </DIV> <DIV>How are Warden's comparing up to shamans now in healing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If shamans do indeed pass up warden's on raids on the heals then what use is there truthfully for a Warden on a raid? Our Wis buffs and resist buffs can be replaced by even crafted gear. Defence and avoidance is capped before we can benefit it on raids. Fury's are better burst healers for when the MT does take damage. In fact all our buffs are the least desired in any raid group.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>Noticed this when we we're raiding Halls of Seeing last night.  The mystic in our MT group was always on the top because of his group wards, followed by the templar in the MT group.  The warden that was used in another group was near the top because his group was taking more AE damage and he was burning his group heals.  I was in the MT group and I used to be on the top but was now near the bottom because of the wards sucking up most the aoe damage.  </DIV>

[Dragonreal]

uhhhmm.... why exactly does it matter? just cuz the parses changed doens't mean the healing itself has.. the shammys have ALWAYS been putting out that much healing.. just cuz we can all of a sudden see it doesn't mean we're putting out any less than we ever have been and the ONLY reason they're putting out more is because of the order of priority on the spec heals.. wards get first shot at "healing" then reactives then regens.. if any of you didn't expect shammys to blow other healers out of the water, then you just have had no clue at all on heal mechanics.

[Formangenavn]

<P>Do you seriously not understand why it is a good thing that we now can see what shammys heal for Drag?</P> <P>If you dont then you have not been following the "who heals for the most" discussion. On paper shammys heals for the least, with lowest efficiency, but that does not mean the same thing happens in game, and its in game we are supposed to be balanced.</P> <P>This isnt just about raid. I am not the least supprised shammys came out on top on raid, but do they comeout on top everywhere? On top on raid and equal everywhere else? Those are important questions.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<DIV>Well I'd hate to think we were part of the cause of it but there's another part to this live update.  The mitigation on items that droped in Lycatheum have been nurfed.  Our MT said he lost 400 mitigation yesterday.  That will have a big effect on heal parses if you think about it.  Instead of the tank mitigating most of the damage of the mob with just enough damage left over to be absorbed by reactives the tank should be taking consistent larger shots for damage now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I always felt that our heals are more efficient because we're the 3rd line of defense.  That ward is first and first to absorb damage, then reactives absorb, then damage that's actually taken becomes our job to heal.  The autoattack of mobs doesn't always reach this 3rd lvl so our heals needed to be more efficient  because so much of it is wasted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll parse out some fights this weekend.  I'm interested in seeing how they come out.  I'm betting after all this discussion it's about even between us and shamans as a hunch depending on how you setup your raid.  Wards are such short duration because they absorb everything we don't have just one shaman casting his solo ward.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<P>I don't really care about the heal parse, just was rather interesting to see how much they actually warded. </P> <P>The one I can guarantee we are top on is lord vyemm</P>

[Isard]

<P>If we're more power efficient then we'll still be healing at the end of the fights, right?  Then we get to be the hero's that saved the day.</P> <P>I like being a hero.  Do you?</P>

[Sokolov]

Parsing Wards! So many unanswered questions can now be answered =D For me tho, in relation to this topic, is that Warders being on top of the healing parse may not necessarily be a good thing from a collective raid prespective. Because If Warders are on top, what it REALLY means is that in many cases, the Wards were enough to cover a good portion of the incoming DPS.  What this suggests is that the encounter was not outputting a "challenging" amount of DPS.   Additionally, given the higher power cost per unit healed, one might actually WANT the higher efficiency healers to be on top, and have the Shamans be doing... something else - whatever that may be - and end up with a better "kill time" with the same amount healed but for less power.  Alternatively, you can think of this as the Warders were "warding" too much for the amount of incoming DPS.  But again, it seems to come back to the fact that the raid's ability to compensate for incoming DPS exceeds the incoming DPS by a significant margin if the results yield one such that Wards come out on top. (I hope that makes some sense, it does in my head, LOL!)<div></div>

[Rappy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote: (I hope that makes some sense, it does in my head, LOL!)<div></div><hr></blockquote>NopeBasically i see it this way, if shamens end up top parsing for heals / wards, provide the best hp buffs whist still having equal physical mitgation buffs, plus having the best dps debuffs of all healer classes....  It is not a good reflection on healer balance when it comes to raiding.</div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div>And encounter DPS has NOTHING to do with it? I see it like this, using very simple numbers: Let's say Shaman = 500 Power to heal 300 HP/s Druid = 500 Power to Heal 500 HP/s (Not real, obviously, but just for illustrative purposes) Let us say that the mob deals only 300 HP/s, that means the Shaman wins the parse, by healing 100%.   Does that mean Wards are "better?" and that it is "unbalanced?"  I think it means that the encounter was easy.  Total power used?  500 Power.  Now, if the Druid had done it all, it could've been done with 300 Power. Now, if the mob deals 500 HP/s, that means the Shaman still wins, by doing 300 HP/s, and the Druid does 200 HP/s each.  Total power used?  700 (or 1000 power if you consider the Druid heals wasted).   But really, 500 HP/s is something the Druid could've handled alone for 500 Power instead - much more efficient. Now, pump it up to 700 HP/s.  Shaman uses all his stuff and takes off 300 HP/s off that for 500 power.  The Druid takes the difference for 400 HP/s at 400 Power.  Total power is 900 for 700 HP/s.  If we assume that the Druid extra healing is lost but still takes power, it's even worse, you are using 1000 power for 700 HP/s  But if the Shaman didn't use all his potential?  Then the Druid can do 500 HP/s at 500 power, and the Shaman will only use 333 power for 200 HP/s for 833 power used for the same amount healed - again much more efficient. Again, obviously fake numbers, but I am just trying to illustrate my point. So what I am saying is, if the encounter outputs a level of DPS that Wards, despite having less heal per cast, are taking the majority of the damage, then the encounter output is simply relatively low compared to the healing potential of the raid party. If the raid is outputting enough DPS that the Wards NEED to be kept up or the tank will die, then I would HOPE the other healers are also at their capacity too, in which case Wards CANNOT win the Parse. This is also why after my initial Wards (after taunt/damage is stabilized) I tend to make Debuffs my priority instead of keeping my Wards up the whole raid - it's more efficient use of my, and, by extension, the raid's power. If we consider the raid party to be one entity, capable of casting multiple spells at the same time - what do you choose to do with each member of the party?  If one member (in this example, the Druid) can do the same thing more effectively at certain points of the battle, why would you want someone else to do it?<p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> And encounter DPS has NOTHING to do with it?<BR><BR>I see it like this, using very simple numbers:<BR><BR>Let's say<BR><BR>Shaman = 500 Power to heal 300 HP/s<BR>Druid = 500 Power to Heal 500 HP/s<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is that while our heals are more power efficient they are far less efficient when it comes to actually healing the MT (or letting him keep his health).  Wards are perfectly efficient and especially when it comes to group wards vs group HoTs.  Most of our healing potential gets wasted because of this mechanic so while more power efficient we are much less efficient overall.

[Shennr]

<P>I would just like to note here at this point in this thread that I really dont see shamans having problems with power in raids</P> <P>= P</P> <P>Druids are always the first to run out of power.</P>

[Formangenavn]

<P>I hear you Unmasked. It is al fine and dandy to have best efficiency on paper, but only a fool will not see that wards are a lot closer on efficiency, or perhaps even more efficient in game then on paper.</P> <P>Now if only SOE could realize that how heals work in game should be taken into cinsideration IN ADDITON to buffs and debuffs, we might actually see some work done to the Warden. I am not very optimistic these days though.</P>

[Rappy]

<div></div>Argue all the if's buts and maybes all you like.  I'm going to wait for the raw numbers and if... note the IF... they show that shamen are top for healing, have the best buffs and have the best DPS debuffs this will show that the healers for raids are utterly unbalanced.  Talk power all you like.. the raw parses for real encounters in real situations will trump any parse you can produce or any theoretical model<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>They are not "if"s and "but"s, I am just analyzing the data instead of taking it at face value.  "X" class parses higher than "Y" class is meanginless without some context.  For example, I usually goto Vaults with a Templar.   Does Vaults need 2 healers?  No, but we like to play together.  If I went nuts on Wards and kept them up all the time, I can pretty much reduce most every encounter's effective DPS in there to 0.  Does that make me a better healer if I parse higher in such a situation?  Not really, she could've handled the zone just fine on her own too.  Some nights I just debuff and DPS and she would undoubtly parse higher, while the group killed faster.There are 2 reasons why Wards may win a given parse:<ul><li>the mechanics of healing means there's a finite amount of healing needed on a given encounter, unlike DPS (which is aggro-restricted, but otherwise theoritically unbounded)</li><li>the mechanics of the fact that Wards are the first line of defense</li></ul>Thus, in most situations where Wards wins a parse, one could have used less Wards and more other heal types to accomplish the same heal amount for less power.My theory is basically that if (if, as you say) Shamans are at the top of healing... relatively speaking, the encounters are not doing enough DPS to warrant the amount of Warding that was used if one wanted everyone to heal "equally."   It points more to playstyle of the Shaman and not their supposed effectiveness, as the mechanics of healing allow a Shaman the highest level of "control" over how high he/she parses.  I just thought of something funny - a Shaman who practices using as many Wards as possible to win parses can be considered to be "Healblocking" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 AM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<DIV>I do not think anyone here says that because shammys heals for more on raid that means they are the best healer. Wards are first in line and that is why they parse the highest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When some time have passed and we have seen more numbers from what wards can do everywhere (solo, grp and raid) we will have a better understanding of how wards are in game compared to HoTs and reactives. If we find that wards are equal or even better to HoTs OVERALL it should be very easy to conclude Wardens are inferior to shammys (because of buffs and debuffs obviously), and this is exactly what I think we will find. But again, we should give it some time.</DIV>

[Rappy]

Sok... read my post carefully you will see this.......  I'm going to wait for the raw numbers and if... note the IF... they show that shamen are top for healing, have the best buffs and have the best DPS debuffs this will show that the<b> healers for raids</b> are utterly unbalanced.What does vault have to do with that?<div></div>

[Sokolov]

It was an illustration of "healblocking" in a limited incoming DPS environment and how Wards can be manipulated by its caster to dramatically affect the overall parse.  It relates to raids in the sense that the same mechanics apply with the caveat that incoming DPS is higher in a raid environment - thus giving increasingly lower control over the final parse to the Shaman as incoming DPS increases.That is how it relates.

[Barand]

So you are saying that if you go full potential you make other priest useless. So you dont go full potential to let other priest play a role ... As a raid leader i don't care which healer heal what. My only concern is to have the tank stay alive and if a shaman can play that role alone, i will not take a warden just in case the shaman feel pity of the other priest. I will take a DPS instead of the warden and it will be more efficient than having a Shaman + warden. If you talk about optimisation, you are right you + templar healing a bit and doing dps is better than having you having full healing and templar DPS. BUT having you + wizard would have been even better. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:So you are saying that if you go full potential you make other priest useless. So you dont go full potential to let other priest play a role ... As a raid leader i don't care which healer heal what. My only concern is to have the tank stay alive and if a shaman can play that role alone, i will not take a warden just in case the shaman feel pity of the other priest. I will take a DPS instead of the warden and it will be more efficient than having a Shaman + warden. If you talk about optimisation, you are right you + templar healing a bit and doing dps is better than having you having full healing and templar DPS. BUT having you + wizard would have been even better. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep, that's what I am saying, but I am also saying that Templar + Wizard would work just as well.</div>

[Rappy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:<font color="#ffff00">So you are saying that if you go full potential you make other priest useless.</font> So you dont go full potential to let other priest play a role ... As a raid leader i don't care which healer heal what. My only concern is to have the tank stay alive and if a shaman can play that role alone, i will not take a warden just in case the shaman feel pity of the other priest. I will take a DPS instead of the warden and it will be more efficient than having a Shaman + warden. If you talk about optimisation, you are right you + templar healing a bit and doing dps is better than having you having full healing and templar DPS. BUT having you + wizard would have been even better. <div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Yep, that's what I am saying,</font> but I am also saying that Templar + Wizard would work just as well.</div><hr></blockquote>Good gracious me, well well well... and there I was thinking i should look for the evidence first, gosh lets hope you are wrong because you will be getting a massive nerf</div>

[Sokolov]

Anyone who has read my other posts in this thread will obviously understand that I say that with the condition that incoming DPS is equal or lower than my ability to heal that much DPS.But you seem to have made a hobby misintepreting my posts and taking everything I say out of context.<div></div>

[xenocyst]

Sok here's my problem with all your posts. All the scenarios you present ignore the actual reality of raids.In a raid the main tank is at 100% health for as much time as the healers can possibly maintain him or her there. If you're not on board with that then you're not raiding challenging encounters so we can stop now. This means that when the tank is not at 100% all healers will burn directs to put him or her back there. Druids win here because we have fast casting directs. The rest of the time druid special heals with thier vaunted efficiency are merely draining power and ticking for zero. Steady incoming damage on the tank is already absorbed by wards and reactives. I've looked at parses to see this. When I cast my regen constantly it seldom ticks for the full amount more than once. What all of this breaks down to is the following: one fury, one inquisitor, one to two templars, and three shamans are all you need on a raid. The fury directs are superior to the warden's for the above spike damage situations and they have better buffs for a mage or melee group than a warden. The rest of the steady damage can be completely absorbed by wards and reactives leaving no place for regen heals anywhere in a raid damage model. I'm not sure what you're arguing in your vaults example, the damage model for grouping is completely different from raiding, if anything raiding looks more like HoF with a brawler tank. I don't want to see shammies get nerfed, I have one myself, but you've spent a lot of time in here arguing paper points that do not take into account the RAID damage model.I haven't seen many arguments that wardens are underpowered in groups, in fact I have long said the opposite. I'm not sure there's anyone more powerful in a standard group, but that dynamic fails completely during a raid because it's not the same thing.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<blockquote><hr>xenocyst wrote:Sok here's my problem with all your posts. All the scenarios you present ignore the actual reality of raids.In a raid the main tank is at 100% health for as much time as the healers can possibly maintain him or her there. If you're not on board with that then you're not raiding challenging encounters so we can stop now. When I cast my regen constantly it seldom ticks for the full amount more than once. <hr></blockquote> How is an encounter considered challenging if you can use power inefficiently (relatively speaking by spamming more Wards than required and healblocking other more power efficient heals), still win, while not even really needing ANY of the Warden's healing power(presuming the Warden is one of 6)? I am not in a high-end guild, and maybe my experiences are different, but power is a constant issue for us on more difficult mobs (I constantly hear that power is not an issue on this forum), especially if we are not efficiently setup.  I hand out power potions during every raid, everyone has shards and hearts (maybe that's standard practice generally too, but if power is not an issue then I can't see this being mandatory instead of just nice to do).   It may be that my guild simply has issues putting up enough DPS and so we need to be a bit more careful how about we spend our available power.  Additionally,  as the sole raiding Shaman in my guild, I often DO sacrifice Wards for Debuffs, sometimes to the point where I am not even in the MT group (and there is no other Shaman in there either).  Which tells me two things - one, the HP buffs are not as Godly as Wardens make it out to be, and two, neither are Wards. Of course, if I am in the MT group and I choose to do so, I could prolly win every parse by spamming Wards - I am simply contending that that course of action isn't necessarily the most efficient from a raid-wise prespective on every encounter. What I have typically found is that while the first 30 seconds of a fight is full of spikes of damage, this damage typically stabilizes with the exception of AEs which are usually on a set counter.  Thus if I know the AE is coming, I'll know when to get a Ward up to help with the spike, but I don't need to constantly spam my Wards.  And if I need to spam Wards for that encounter, the mob is likely outputting so much DPS that everyone's healing capacities is taxed and we aren't going to win anyway =/  You also said that the steady damage is taken up by Wards and Reactives - but if it's steady... why are the Wards up all the time?  Do you really need them to be? Anyway, maybe my experiences don't accurately reflect a typical guild's raid reality either, and I will certainly concede that if you have the capability to field enough Shamans to cover most of the healing coupled with enough DPS to last thru the encounter, it would certainly be advantagous to do so.  But for my guild, we take who can and who wants to come, and we make do with what we got, and usually that means I am the only Warder in the entire raid =D Or maybe I am just dumb since everyone seems to disagree with me! lol<div></div>

[Unmask]

<P>Since you're a level 70 defiler I'm assuming your raidforce is all T7 at least and likely level 70 as well.  What encounters are you beating without a shaman class in the MT group?  With no HP buffs and no wards (which are essentially temporary HP buffs) the odds are pretty good that your MT will get one shotted from 100% health.</P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div>Well, some people here already know because I spoke ofit before, but we only very recently finished Courts.  We aren't a full T7 raid force, in fact, we can't field a full 24 person raid with level 70 people (many members are 65+ but a good portion isn't).   Often we can't even fill a raid at all without getting unguilded friends at the last minute.  But if the T7 raid mobs hit for like 8 to 10k (which would be oneshotting my tanks, without my buffs or wards), then yea, I can see how that would be a problem if I wasn't in the MT group =D  (Altho I would say we have no chance in hell of beating such an encounter anyway, and also, I question how likely such an encounter's damage will be coverable mostly with Wards and Reactives.) (This may also explain why I like Warden buffs more because unlike raiding guilds, we simply cannot reach the resist caps even with everything we got.) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[Rappy]

<div></div>Sok mate im not taking things out of context.  I am just failing to get past statements which suggest that shamens can easily win heal parses by new terms such asHeal-blockingWhere you suggest it is possible for a shamen to make other healers superfluous because of their ability to heal.   You have to remember that you are on the warden boards posting this stuff and it is not likely to be as well received then if you were on spells and combat page... please note here that everyone but you is saying exactly what i am saying.. this is because we are all wardens and you are the only shamen hereIt is hard to take from a shamen saying that you can heal-block us out of a raid situation.THIS is why i continuously say.. and here you seem to be guilty of the same offense as you accuse me of doing... WAIT FOR THE NUMBERS!!!EDIT:  Oh and Re: warden resist buffs.. please dont go there.. anyone with 2 pieces of resist gear can do what a warden does... thats just not good style man... when you are raiding T7 you will be getting more respect.. you just lost a load by telling these guys how they should be raid healing and acknowledging that you are an entire tier behind what these guys are doing.No more posting for me on this one man.. i<font color="#ffff00">ts going nowhere until we actually have some parsing information</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:Sok mate im not taking things out of context.  I am just failing to get past statements which suggest that shamens can easily win heal parses by new terms such asHeal-blockingWhere you suggest it is possible for a shamen to make other healers superfluous because of their ability to heal.   You have to remember that you are on the warden boards posting this stuff and it is not likely to be as well received then if you were on spells and combat page... please note here that everyone but you is saying exactly what i am saying.. this is because we are all wardens and you are the only shamen here<b>It is hard to take from a shamen saying that you can heal-block us out of a raid situation.</b>THIS is why i continuously say.. and here you seem to be guilty of the same offense as you accuse me of doing... WAIT FOR THE NUMBERS!!!<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you quote me saying something and then apply in a way I did not intend, that is taking me out of context (and you do this all the time). And when did I accuse you of anything?  I am confused there. I am not sure I understand what you are saying here at all.  We both agree that if the tank is at 100% health then Regens heal for 0, and a tank has a better chance at staying at 100% health if Wards are constantly recasted.  Thus a Shaman can parse higher simply by casting more Wards, which has a direct result on how other healers parse too.  What all of you are saying is that if Shamans parse higher healing is unbalanced - I am just trying to explain how easily that parse number might be manipulated by the Warder. I thought we agreed on this point as that is simply how healing mechanics work. "<b>It is hard to take from a shamen saying that you can heal-block us out of a raid situation." </b>I thought this was actually the Warden complaint to begin with, that with the way Wards work, Regens don't heal for their potential.<b> </b><div></div><p>Yea, I can wait for the numbers, but my point is that the numbers will not accurately reflect balance because they are bounded by an external variable (encounter DPS). <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div></div>EDIT:  Oh and Re: warden resist buffs.. please dont go there.. anyone with 2 pieces of resist gear can do what a warden does... thats just not good style man... when you are raiding T7 you will be getting more respect.. you just lost a load by telling these guys how they should be raid healing and acknowledging that you are an entire tier behind what these guys are doing.No more posting for me on this one man.. i<font color="#ffff00">ts going nowhere until we actually have some parsing information</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I've never kept it a  secret *shrug* Again, I contend that the parses will not show anything of value. Anyway, you are right, I am less uber than you guys so I should shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up. *rolls his eyes* I am done too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[Rappy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div></div>EDIT:  Oh and Re: warden resist buffs.. please dont go there.. anyone with 2 pieces of resist gear can do what a warden does... thats just not good style man... when you are raiding T7 you will be getting more respect.. you just lost a load by telling these guys how they should be raid healing and acknowledging that you are an entire tier behind what these guys are doing.No more posting for me on this one man.. i<font color="#ffff00">ts going nowhere until we actually have some parsing information</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I've never kept it a  secret *shrug* Again, I contend that the parses will not show anything of value. <font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"> Anyway, you are right, I am less uber than you guys so I should shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"> *rolls his eyes*</font><font color="#ffff00"></font> I am done too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And i'm the one guilty of a context violation... oh gosh, maybe its best not to let the pot call the kettle black</div>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <BR>We both agree that if the tank is at 100% health then Regens heal for 0, and a tank has a better chance at <STRIKE>staying at 100% health</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>living</FONT> if Wards are constantly recasted.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Edited for effect.</P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div>Okay, I am not annoyed anymore, I got over it =)<p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 PM</span>

[Barand]

Sokolov the fact is that we dont speak about the same tier and the difference are huge. Even if in T6 situation may be worst than T7 for warden.In T6 every player get a large bonus in resist against the mob, so our buff are useless, and for most of the mob in court our healing power isn't needed (on last run i've gone full dps for nearly every fight).But when we started doing T6 or T7 is was feeling usefull, if i weren't here, i think we wouldn't have killed these mobs. Your guild since you are not full 24, and maybe not as well equiped as some of the other warden here, is facing some issue than most of us don't have anymore. I m sure every priest is now near FT cap, so that power is a much less important issue (with heart and rod and potion and a mana regen in each group). We have more DPS (just filling a full 24 raid people  make a huge difference, we never past through the doom triad in labs before having 24 lvl 70 people) and so on (im not bragging just let you see the difference of point of view). Warden is good when the raid is not at his maximum potential. Now the more we progress in labs the less usefull i feel for the encounter we already defeated. I am now DPSing a lot more than when we starting. It may be a good things for the raid, beause it means we are better, but for myself as a healer, i feel sad to not having to play my role. I was thinking like you when we started raiding, now i think we need something to play a role  when our healing isn't needed (utility spell, buff or debuff and not just plain DPS).<div></div>

[sausageburner]

<P>I dont get why people always complain about wardens heals? My guild raided the new raid zone in TT the other night, I was parsed as the top healer for most of the fights. The best was me healing for 115,000hp and next was a templar for 85,000 hp. (Dont know if mystic was correctly parsed with new ward update).</P> <P>And im not even gonna comment on whoever said wardens are the first healers to run out of power....</P>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sausageburner wrote:<BR> <P>I dont get why people always complain about wardens heals? My guild raided the new raid zone in TT the other night, I was parsed as the top healer for most of the fights. The best was me healing for 115,000hp and next was a templar for 85,000 hp. (Dont know if mystic was correctly parsed with new ward update).</P> <P>And im not even gonna comment on whoever said wardens are the first healers to run out of power....</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The first healer to run out of power thing could possibly, and imo is likely, to be coming from those who constantly spam their group regen for jsut a single target.. idk for sure of course but just what I think based off my own experiences in that I never use the grp regen unless the grp actually needs it and not just the main tank and I pretty much never run out of power.

[sausageburner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonrealms wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sausageburner wrote:<BR> <P>I dont get why people always complain about wardens heals? My guild raided the new raid zone in TT the other night, I was parsed as the top healer for most of the fights. The best was me healing for 115,000hp and next was a templar for 85,000 hp. (Dont know if mystic was correctly parsed with new ward update).</P> <P>And im not even gonna comment on whoever said wardens are the first healers to run out of power....</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>The first healer to run out of power thing could possibly, and imo is likely, to be coming from those who constantly spam their group regen for jsut a single target</STRONG>.. idk for sure of course but just what I think based off my own experiences in that I never use the grp regen unless the grp actually needs it and not just the main tank and I pretty much never run out of power.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well yeah but who would use a group heal to heal a single target??? That would be absolutely pointless..... imo a warden should be the last healer to run outta power, we have the best power to heal ratio, hence the reason why we parse so high on raids and are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice to have in grinding groups.<BR>

[mikemcmodmi]

This efficient healing everyone is talking about on Wardens.... you do realize you're talking about 10% max advantage.  I think it's less then that.  It's a lot less then what's wasted with our heal regens hitting the tank when he's full health.

[xenocyst]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><div></div>Well, some people here already know because I spoke ofit before, but we only very recently finished Courts.  We aren't a full T7 raid force, in fact, we can't field a full 24 person raid with level 70 people (many members are 65+ but a good portion isn't).   Often we can't even fill a raid at all without getting unguilded friends at the last minute.  But if the T7 raid mobs hit for like 8 to 10k (which would be oneshotting my tanks, without my buffs or wards), then yea, I can see how that would be a problem if I wasn't in the MT group =D  (Altho I would say we have no chance in hell of beating such an encounter anyway, and also, I question how likely such an encounter's damage will be coverable mostly with Wards and Reactives.) (This may also explain why I like Warden buffs more because unlike raiding guilds, we simply cannot reach the resist caps even with everything we got.) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:34 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yea, I think that pretty much sums it up. I sortof got at that in my post but I wasn't sure.</div>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sausageburner wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG>The first healer to run out of power thing could possibly, and imo is likely, to be coming from those who constantly spam their group regen for jsut a single target</STRONG>.. idk for sure of course but just what I think based off my own experiences in that I never use the grp regen unless the grp actually needs it and not just the main tank and I pretty much never run out of power.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Well yeah but who would use a group heal to heal a single target??? That would be absolutely pointless..... imo a warden should be the last healer to run outta power, we have the best power to heal ratio, hence the reason why we parse so high on raids and are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice to have in grinding groups.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I run around 7.2k power raid buffed and I am ALWAYS the first to run out of power on mobs that do constant damage to the tank. And yes I constantly have my group regen up, because the fury in the raid is casting their single target HoT. In those situations I am also forced to spam our group direct heal so burn through power like I've just been Ae'd by the Elemental Warder :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P>Iranos has it right. Wardens are superflous on everything but the tough raid named that actually do damage to your tank. Once your raid gets geared up, zones like Lab become easy and you don't really need to heal on anything there as wards and reactives are more than capable of dealing with incoming DPS. So basically in most raids you can just AF everyone about until you get to the 1 or 2 named where your healing will actually make a difference. Encounters in this game are not designed around warden healing, because as soon as their is more than 1 healer in a group, we get relegated to backup healer as wards/reactives are more than capable of soaking up incoming DPS. It is only on the few and far between high end raid mobs that we shine on, and people are questioning whether that is enough of a tradeoff.<BR></P>

[sausageburner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I run around 7.2k power raid buffed and I am ALWAYS the first to run out of power on mobs that do constant damage to the tank. And yes I constantly have my group regen up, because the fury in the raid is casting their single target HoT. In those situations I am also forced to spam our group direct heal so burn through power like I've just been Ae'd by the Elemental Warder :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off dont take this the wrong way, just trying to see how your guild makes this work. Because I dont get how that setup would work efficiently... I dont get how your raid would rather you burn all your power on a group heal to heal your MT just cuz a fury is using his HoT. How is your MT group setup? are you in the MT group with a fury?</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by sausageburner on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 PM</span>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sausageburner wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I run around 7.2k power raid buffed and I am ALWAYS the first to run out of power on mobs that do constant damage to the tank. And yes I constantly have my group regen up, because the fury in the raid is casting their single target HoT. In those situations I am also forced to spam our group direct heal so burn through power like I've just been Ae'd by the Elemental Warder :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off dont take this the wrong way, just trying to see how your guild makes this work. Because I dont get how that setup would work efficiently... I dont get how your raid would rather you burn all your power on a group heal to heal your MT just cuz a fury is using his HoT. How is your MT group setup? are you in the MT group with a fury?</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by sausageburner on <SPAN class=date_text>05-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No we don't put 2 druids in the MT group. That would be a waste of a spot since wardens and furies have pretty much the same buffs. If you have 2 druids on a raid the general rule of thumb is the druid outside the MT group keeps up the single target HoT and the one in the MT uses their group regen. On mobs that actually do do damage to your tank, it is vital that the tank has both group and single regen ticking on him, and it's a much more efficient use of power to split that job between two healers. And FYI I don't run OOP on that many mobs, because we have a very good raid setup that maximises our power useage. But that is beside the point. As I said in my post wardens are backup healers on everything but high end raid mobs, because for 99% of encounters wards and reactives keep the tank at 100% health negating our healing. Does that justify us having the lackluster buffs we have? You can afford to drop the druid out of the MT group, but the same cannot be said for shammys and clerics, because they both bring something other than healing to the table.</P> <P> </P>

[Dragonreal]

Please clarify that that's the general rule of thumb for YOUR guild cuz you can't speak for all guilds and as it is in this thread alone there are 2 of us saying we dont' do it that way and don't think it "should" be done that way while there's you saying you do it that way. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's not right to claim it as the norm.. there's two different ways of handling the group regen thing and neither is more wrong or right than the other.

[Barand]

It depend with how many healer you raid and the mitigation of your tank mostly. Don't forget that some of us have tank not at the mitig cap or raid with a few less healer.Now our tank is near the cap, but when we started doing labs i was spamming hot group too to keep up with the damage, at that time we only had 4 or 5 healer too.Now we raid labs with 6 or 7 healer, the tank is well geared and i dont have to group regen at all (except on AoE), but its something crucial for a starting guild in T7.But even with group hot, i rarely consume first all my power, this is more an issue with people gear than class. FT cap + SotB + Coercer in group = loooooong time before oom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Sorano]

For 99% of the  mobs in raid zones I don't use my group HoT at all because there is NO NEED for it. Wards and reactives more than cover the incoming damage and if they aren't DHs make up for the shortfall. The only time I find myself using my group HoT is on named raid mobs, because their incoming damage exceeds what wards and reactives can cope with. I have found that once your tank and raid is well geared, wardens become more and more superflous because there is just no need for us to heal. The Lab is a perfect example of this. I could probably go afk for the entire zone, bar maybe Vyemm and it wouldn't matter if I was there or not. The mobs in there simply do not do enough damage to our tank  to have me do much more than hit Heirophantic Advent and go afk. This is the problem wardens face. Due to game mechanics, wards and reactives can render our healing superflous, because if the tank is at 100% health we cannot heal him. So yes shammys and clerics can healblock us, plus they bring other buffs to the table we can't hope to match. All we are asking is for some parity in our buffs.

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> The Lab is a perfect example of this. I could probably go afk for the entire zone, bar maybe Vyemm and it wouldn't matter if I was there or not. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm getting good at spamming cures.<BR>

[Durst]

<DIV>Sok here's my problem with all your posts. All the scenarios you present ignore the actual reality of raids.<BR>In a raid the main tank is at 100% health for as much time as the healers can possibly maintain him or her there. If you're not on board with that then you're not raiding challenging encounters so we can stop now.<BR>This means that when the tank is not at 100% all healers will burn directs to put him or her back there. Druids win here because we have fast casting directs. The rest of the time druid special heals with thier vaunted efficiency are merely draining power and ticking for zero. Steady incoming damage on the tank is already absorbed by wards and reactives. I've looked at parses to see this. When I cast my regen constantly it seldom ticks for the full amount more than once. What all of this breaks down to is the following: one fury, one inquisitor, one to two templars, and three shamans are all you need on a raid. The fury directs are superior to the warden's for the above spike damage situations and they have better buffs for a mage or melee group than a warden. The rest of the steady damage can be completely absorbed by wards and reactives leaving no place for regen heals anywhere in a raid damage model.<BR>I'm not sure what you're arguing in your vaults example, the damage model for grouping is completely different from raiding, if anything raiding looks more like HoF with a brawler tank. I don't want to see shammies get nerfed, I have one myself, but you've spent a lot of time in here arguing paper points that do not take into account the RAID damage model.<BR>I haven't seen many arguments that wardens are underpowered in groups, in fact I have long said the opposite. I'm not sure there's anyone more powerful in a standard group, but that dynamic fails completely during a raid because it's not the same thing.<BR> <P></P> <DIV> <CENTER>Tastiest Namenerf'Inc - 70 Warden</CENTER> <CENTER>Befallen</CENTER></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So true! Great post</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I parsed out some fights and have some results.  In our parses it breaks down the healing on the tank vs healing on everyone else too.</P> <P>Wardens do well still on the overall healing and win a lot but heal for the least on the main tank.  We raided halls of seeing with no Warden in G1 and did better without one.  We went Zerk, Dirge, Temp, Defiler, Mystic and Palladin.  Our usual job of being the G1 healer of the healers can be done by a Palladin just as well.  I went with a dirge in a mostly melee group and kept them up in any aoe on easy mobs.  Fury was in the ubber dps group with the troub.  In this scenario most of the time I'd win the heal parse for total raid but would come in mid range for healing on the MT.  The shamans would come in 1st/2nd in healing on solely the MT almost every time depending on how hard the fight was.</P> <P>We also tried replacing the Mystic in said group above with me and my MT number went up a bit on MT but still lost to shamans.</P> <P>So what does this mean?  It means that direct healing is even between the classes, as proved before.  When you get the mix of shamans, clerics and druids with their specialty heals, the shamans wards are most efficient, followed by clerics, then druids.  Big surprise.</P> <P>I think this is the best and fairest outcome so I'm happy.  Shamans SHOULD be healing the most on a single target because they're so weak in AoE healing.  Clerics are average so are mid pack, druids are hands down the best AoE healers with our group hot so we should be the weakest vs a single target healing when you get multiple classes.  It wouldn't be fair otherwise.  This is a good example of how the healing between the classes are different but even.  Now thinking about it when you're solo healing a group for xp our hots will tick to near their full potential so healing would then be even in grouping so it balances out that way as well. </P> <P>That being said I didn't notice any difference between having no druid in G1.  All it did was maybe make us a little stronger because we got an extra 700 hps.  So now that healing is even I still strongly think we should get better buffs.  Our buffs outright don't cut it and spores is only really efficient on long fights.  On shorter fights I'd take hps over spores anyday.</P> <P>On a side note, I used to always been the G1 Warden before we stopped using a druid in G1.  I NEVER cast my group hot unless I needed to heal the healers because it's more efficient for me to heal them then for a cleric or shaman to cast their group heal.  We'd get the fury to maintain his hot and I'd cure as well as heal damage spikes with my quick casting direct heals.  Our group hot just isn't efficient to use if you're only healing the main tank.  6 ticks for 480 for that much power?  no thanks.  Especially when they'll usually tick with the MT at full health.</P> <P>On another note I've also figured out why some wardens win heal parses.  It's from not being in G1 and healing dps in AoEs.  Flat out it's probably the only way.  Either that or you don't have a disciplined raid and G1 members are running around hell bell in AoEs soaking up reactives and group wards meant for the MT so you're needing to heal them up.</P> <P>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <SPAN class=date_text>05-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:04 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>05-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span>

[Shennr]

<P>Ty for summing up the entire ordeal that I was getting to Mike.</P> <P>We do indeed get our high parsed healing through healing other people in the raid. For example, if I see 1 or more people in raid that are not in my group at 50% health or lower, excluding the MT, then I will toss a regen on them. Our regens are very effecient if they are used to their full potential and since most of the other healers, being shamans and clerics, are more focused on the MT with their long casting heals that I usually end up healing everyone else in the raid.</P> <P>I know that several of you do this too so be honest. But this leads to the assumption that we may be becoming some form of a back up healer. Kinda like what happened in EQ1. Long story short druids became more of a backup healer role in most people's mindsets.</P> <P>Fury's on the other hand are excellent in the scenario's where reactives and wards fail to keep the MT at 100%. They can pump in 7-11k hp in seconds. Ask a fury for yourself and they can tell you exactly how much time it would take. They were also given better buffs which are beneficial in any group in a raid. What I am getting at is can the Fury class completely replace the Warden in a raid? They have the same group regens and the same single target regens as we do.</P> <P>More on this issue to be posted later...</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>As for raids the tank won't be at less then full health for less then maybe 5 secs?  This is right when the warden healing dips in comparison to other healers.  Furies with back into the fray are better for healing damage spikes.  See the thread 'healing guide' for proof.  This is why we heal for more then clerics or shamans with our direct heals, because the tank isn't left at less then full health for long.</P> <P>I really do think there's no need for a warden in a raid anymore too.  You could change us for a fury and be better off, but only slightly.  This is statistical though, where the strength of the player matters more then what class they are though.  I wouldn't boot a warden out of the raid by any means because we still heal efficiently in long fights.... like there are that many except maybe a couple of examples.  We aren't useless we just have no role really and you'd do better with another class if evenly equiped.</P> <P>I'm really hoping that when they come out with AAs in the next expansion and they have class specific AAs they give some good buffs.  Something to fix the situation where you'd want a Warden in G1 where we belong so we don't have to be wanna be furies heh.  In the meantime 1, I mean common, just ONE training spell that's half decent defensively would be nice.</P>

[Barand]

About HoT i parsed tonight that most of my healing power comes from the 2 singles target heal. Our speciality heal was 4 behind the group direct heal.Even tough i had it up nearly everytimes it didn't tick as much as it should have in all the scenario we have in theory.Most of the times my HoT was just ticking 1 time during the full duration ...<div></div>

[Timber13]

<DIV>We still end up first on most parses, without healing the whole raid etc. I parsed our fight vs Pardas Predd, a mob with no significant aoe or special spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allies: (01:44) 1103391 | 10.609,53 [Mackemi-Ice Nova-13212]<BR>Lipi 0 | 19974  Warden<BR>Cuius 0 | 19185  Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Marina 0 | 16202  Templar</DIV> <DIV>Tiara 0 | 14306  Templar<BR>Nimsul 0 | 7751  Defiler<BR>Scales 0 | 3586  Defiler pet<BR>Daveke 0 | 3501  Bruiser<BR>Phodopus 0 | 2323  Necromancer<BR>Longolin 0 | 2291  Slack inquisitor :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I agree with some said before that it depends how good your tank is buffed and that is 100%. How better your tank is buffed how less you need to heal. Above parse seems balanced to me. There were fights with outrage numbers for the warden but as shen said before that's when you heal others in the raid aswell. But that is needed aswell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm very supriced about the high numbers mystic seems to parse, and on all the fights I parsed they are really good healers. on a side note, in the tank group there was only a defiler and a templar, I'm pretty sure that we'd outheal the others with crazy numbers if we get into the tank group since our group heals are superb and are equal as our single targets one so we can just double the heals on our target, being the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>On Saturday my guild and some friends attempted Mark of the Awakening Trial of Leadership (woot, T7!).  We did not win but got the final mob to 37% life with a less than optimal force.We had NO power regen in the raid whatsoever in the form of Bards and Enchanters.We had 2 Scouts (Brigand and Ranger) and over half the raid was tanks.We had 6 healers (Defiler, Templar x3, Warden, Inquisitor).The mob has significant spike damage, hitting our tank upwards of 6k multiple times, sometimes hitting 3 or 4 times in mere seconds for over 10k damage in totalDespite debuffing for the most part for the first 30 seconds of the fight, I still parsed highest by about 10% (of all heals) in all of our attempts.  Interestingly, over a third of my healing of the 2 and a half minute fights came directly from Spiritual Circle - seriously, this thing is a beast, eating up AE damage left and right and regenerating constantly to block more damage.  The Warden in the MT group with me came in second and the Templar third.I think if we had had 1 more shaman (there was a noticeable increase in damage when one of my longer recasting DPS debuffs went down), 1 more druid and 2 clerics instead of 4 clerics, we could have won even without power regen buffs, but that's just speculation.We will be trying again at the end of this week... so hopefully I can bring you a parse of a full and successful fight =D<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 AM</span>

[Unmask]

I'm trying to remember but I think the key to that fight was having high mental resists and being quick on the arcane cures.  Good luck.

[Sokolov]

<div></div>He did have that Arcane mental based AE, but surprisingly that wasn't really the problem.It was really the melee crushing damage that got us.  We'd just miss on one of them and the MT would go down in the string of multi-k hits.  Which is why I think if we had more balanced healers we would've been able to do it as the clerics were mostly relegated to direct heals and 4 of our 6 healers were the slow ones <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 AM</span>

[Barand]

Yes jut put in each group a priest with group mental cure if you can, or ask everyone to come with the item in TT that cure it and it will be easier.And for lipi my parse from pardas pred last night is like this Barandos (Warden 70 and me), Andromya (Defiler 65), Anouchka (Templar 70) in MT group(02:27) 1207081 | 8 211,44Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 26345Andromya DPS :  3,05 |heal : 19025Jolina degat DPS :  138,11 |heal : 15884 -- Fury 70 offtank groupBarandos DPS :  367,10 |heal : 12831Labdu DPS :  35,27 |heal : 12428 -- Templar 70 offtank groupOmbrus DPS :  0,00 |heal : 11594 -- Mystic 70 offtank groupBlandine DPS :  15,12 |heal : 8937 -- Other teamNot parsing high since healing wasn't needed i was DPSing most of the timeFor other named : Slavering alzid : (02:47) 1508624 | 9 033,68Anouchka DPS :  19,20 |heal : 21889Ombrus DPS :  4,77 |heal : 17957Barandos DPS :  350,01 |heal : 17549Labdu DPS :  74,20 |heal : 14756Jolina DPS :  115,40 |heal : 13352Blandine DPS :  2,87 |heal : 8421same hereDoom triad : (02:46) 1223497 | 7 370,46Barandos DPS :  186,96 |heal : 56019Andromya DPS :  0,00 |heal : 43941Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 35625Labdu DPS :  4,20 |heal : 34309Blandine DPS :  3,61 |heal : 32723Naujicaa DPS :  42,07 |heal : 30702 -- Fury 64 mage teamJolina DPS :  34,93 |heal : 24876Some AE and lots of healing needed (see dps dropping <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Encaged Alzid : (03:11) 1356374 | 7 101,44Andromya DPS :  3,40 |heal : 36455Anouchka DPS :  17,53 |heal : 30752Barandos DPS :  308,03 |heal : 30560Bronux DPS :  323,08 |heal : 18456 -- Pally lolBlandine DPS :  16,08 |heal : 11681Labdu DPS :  45,09 |heal : 10065Naujicaa DPS :  74,31 |heal : 9223DPS mode againUUstalus :(02:27) 819274 | 5 573,29Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 21232Andromya DPS :  3,48 |heal : 20440Barandos DPS :  400,54 |heal : 11010Jolina DPS :  114,14 |heal : 8189Blandine DPS :  16,97 |heal : 7558Labdu DPS :  54,94 |heal : 6115Ombrus DPS :  5,49 |heal : 5244Naujicaa DPS :  124,05 |heal : 4549Dps againCorsolander : (07:29) 1321068 | 2 942,25Barandos DPS :  119,26 |heal : 102152Jolina DPS :  1,49 |heal : 84293Andromya DPS :  0,00 |heal : 82923Blandine DPS :  0,00 |heal : 80163Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 71433Bronux DPS :  59,18 |heal : 69919Naujicaa DPS :  0,00 |heal : 58922Labdu DPS :  0,00 |heal : 58574Lots of healing needed since aggro was not so well keep due to no damage done by the tank.Doomsworm Zaktrha(05:25) 1819488 | 5 598,43Blandine DPS :  0,00 |heal : 70077 -- AoE heal team 3Barandos DPS :  141,49 |heal : 67047Naujicaa DPS :  0,00 |heal : 62881 -- AoE heal team 4Andromya DPS :  0,00 |heal : 51779Labdu DPS :  32,26 |heal : 44367Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 40457Jolina DPS :  6,79 |heal : 36483Ombrus DPS :  0,00 |heal : 26638On this one you see how important the group heal are. Both team 3 and 4 had had healer that weren't high lvl enough to cure the AoE that does 90% of damage. So our strat was just letting them doing AoE heal just after and bring them back full health before next AoE.Doomwrigth Zaktritz(01:59) 1135894 | 9 545,33Andromya DPS :  0,00 |heal : 15985Anouchka DPS :  0,00 |heal : 12551Bronux DPS :  306,99 |heal : 6704Ombrus DPS :  12,99 |heal : 6567Labdu DPS :  55,18 |heal : 6102Barandos DPS :  470,49 |heal : 3456Well he is the easiest in the zone so full DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Even pally healed more than me in this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Euktrkai (sorry  name <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )(01:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 740670 | 8 416,70Labdu DPS :  192,74 |heal : 3453Godzu DPS :  109,81 |heal : 3264Ombrus DPS :  0,00 |heal : 3130Barandos DPS :  455,78 |heal : 2673Andromya DPS :  0,00 |heal : 2579Anouchka DPS :  15,43 |heal : 2568Bronux DPS :  199,48 |heal : 2516Same here no damage done by named so not really representativeWe didn't manage to kill both Vyem and prime at same time so i have no valuable parse for themAnd full zone we got : (01:12:30) 29295331 | 6 734,56Barandos DPS :  282,48 |heal : 578643 -- Warden 70 MTAndromya DPS :  0,75 |heal : 562978 -- Defiler 65 MTAnouchka DPS :  2,29 |heal : 490488 - Templar 70 MTLabdu DPS :  42,06 |heal : 426291 -- Inqui 70 OffJolina DPS :  130,58 |heal : 356416 -- Fury 70 offBlandine DPS :  22,42 |heal : 315885 -- Templar 65 Scout teamBronux DPS :  225,65 |heal : 286269 -- Pally MTNaujicaa DPS :  68,05 |heal : 284247 -- Fury 64 Mage teamOmbrus DPS :  3,07 |heal : 249295 -- Mystic 70 offYeah First !! Last week i had something like 200K more than the templar, this week, it has goes down to 100K, i feeled it in most of the fight. I m going DPS on most of named because my healing is not more needed.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I'm always surprised to see different guilds and how their numbers change.  I love heal parsers, it's like a yardstick like a dps parser is for dps classes.  You get to tell who's slacking.</P> <P>We always have the fury keeping the hot up.  You must have been timber in your circumstance because you're the only druid who shows.  We also have a great inquisator who keeps the reactive up.  We haven't found a master solo reactive for the temp but have one for the inquis.  That and our templars always parse low... must be slacking.</P> <P>Another thing.  Do you have a parser that breaks out healing overall vs healing on the MT?  I always parsed highest overall from the non-MT group as well... I know you're example is a non-AoEing mob I think.... either that or we just ignore the AoE but it always seems to show a different story.  Your inquis is deffinately a slacker too, Inquis usually do really well on parsers.</P> <P>Like I said in an off group I always won the heal parse it's just I lost on healing on the MT.</P> <P>Plus Sokolov, make sure you cure the MT as well.  I bet if the MT dropped there was some sort of debuff on him.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[Timber13]

<P>Very nice parse Iranos, only confirm what I believe in, Warden #1.</P> <P>I bet you can end up on most of those fights if you really go for it though. Not saying you slack but I focused all the time yesterday on healing and parsed #1 each time.</P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Oops, posted in the wrong tab =/<div></div><p><span class="time_text">Meant to post to <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=70395&jump=true#M70395" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=70395&jump=true#M70395</a></span></p><p><span class="time_text">Nothing to do with healing tho.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Barand]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timber13 wrote:<div></div> <p>Very nice parse Iranos, only confirm what I believe in, Warden #1.</p> <p>I bet you can end up on most of those fights if you really go for it though. Not saying you slack but I focused all the time yesterday on healing and parsed #1 each time.</p><hr></blockquote>Tahnks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. That may be true, but as Sokolov say, it is not really efficient to do that and i find it a little boring <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If i can do it again next week with nearly the same team i will see how it changes with the improvment of the raid.</div>

[NimSul]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iranos wrote:<BR><BR>And full zone we got : <BR>(01:12:30) 29295331 | 6 734,56<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Barandos DPS :  282,48 |heal : 578643 -- Warden 70 MT<BR></FONT>Andromya DPS :  0,75 |heal : 562978 -- Defiler 65 MT<BR>Anouchka DPS :  2,29 |heal : 490488 - Templar 70 MT<BR>Labdu DPS :  42,06 |heal : 426291 -- Inqui 70 Off<BR>Jolina DPS :  130,58 |heal : 356416 -- Fury 70 off<BR>Blandine DPS :  22,42 |heal : 315885 -- Templar 65 Scout team<BR>Bronux DPS :  225,65 |heal : 286269 -- Pally MT<BR>Naujicaa DPS :  68,05 |heal : 284247 -- Fury 64 Mage team<BR>Ombrus DPS :  3,07 |heal : 249295 -- Mystic 70 off<BR><BR>Yeah First !! Last week i had something like 200K more than the templar, this week, it has goes down to 100K, i feeled it in most of the fight. I m going DPS on most of named because my healing is not more needed.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im sorry but in the light of the discussion ive had in general forums about wardens on raids i couldnt help but want to point this out.<BR></P> <P>You have the highest dps AND the highest heal of all the priests :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Now if they just nerfed the size of thats stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tree you guys bring it might accually be nice to have a warden present on raids:smileysurprised:</P>

[Timber13]

/guildkick Nimsul :p

[Sokolov]

I still say the tree <i>should </i>heal the raid, it would not be overpowering in any way whatsoever.<div></div>

[Barand]

oh and not reacting that a lvl 65 defiler with no master or adept III above lvl 60 equal a fully master warden 70 ? Between <font color="#ff0000">578643 and </font> 562978 there isn't that much difference.And note that if i m doing the best DPS its because im the only healer that bother trying at the moment in my guild... wonder why the warden is already trying to DPS while the other have yet lots of things to do in raid other than that.Its not like other priest gets moderate DPS in the parse you see near 0 DPS  for all of them except the fury. That mean they were busy enough to not DPS (or slacking yeah <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )If they gave warden some utility spell or debuff that works our DPS will drop too without a nerf, we will just have something else than DPS to do. I parse around 100 DPS when the raid needs healing, and parse 400 500 when no healing is needed, if other priest only do DPS just like me they will do that too.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NimSul wrote:<BR> <P>Im sorry but in the light of the discussion ive had in general forums about wardens on raids i couldnt help but want to point this out.<BR></P> <P>You have the highest dps AND the highest heal of all the priests :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Now if they just nerfed the size of thats stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tree you guys bring it might accually be nice to have a warden present on raids:smileysurprised:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well on mobs with raidwide AEs we will do well but with just trash mobs I have to spam heal to beat a defiler. :p<BR>

[xenocyst]

<blockquote><hr>NimSul wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Iranos wrote:And full zone we got : (01:12:30) 29295331 | 6 734,56<font color="#ff0000">Barandos DPS :  282,48 |heal : 578643 -- Warden 70 MT</font>Andromya DPS :  0,75 |heal : 562978 -- Defiler 65 MTAnouchka DPS :  2,29 |heal : 490488 - Templar 70 MTLabdu DPS :  42,06 |heal : 426291 -- Inqui 70 OffJolina DPS :  130,58 |heal : 356416 -- Fury 70 offBlandine DPS :  22,42 |heal : 315885 -- Templar 65 Scout teamBronux DPS :  225,65 |heal : 286269 -- Pally MTNaujicaa DPS :  68,05 |heal : 284247 -- Fury 64 Mage teamOmbrus DPS :  3,07 |heal : 249295 -- Mystic 70 offYeah First !! Last week i had something like 200K more than the templar, this week, it has goes down to 100K, i feeled it in most of the fight. I m going DPS on most of named because my healing is not more needed. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Im sorry but in the light of the discussion ive had in general forums about wardens on raids i couldnt help but want to point this out.</p> <p>You have the highest dps AND the highest heal of all the priests :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p>Now if they just nerfed the size of thats stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tree you guys bring it might accually be nice to have a warden present on raids:smileysurprised:</p><hr></blockquote>/yawn you carefully fail to mention that in labs there are plenty of aoes to push a druid's heal number up, a parse of healing on MT only would look completely differentFurthermore, I appreciate that wardens do good dps, but when I sit out certain raids because I HAVE NO WORTHWHILE BUFFS -- my dps on trash mobs in labs doesn't really provide much consolationIt's the same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] over and over, I just wanted to call you out on it.<div></div>

[Devizi]

Just to make you all squirm, I parsed Tarinax, and quite a few other raid mobs with AE's that my guild has killed.  Druids always come out on the top of the parse because of group regen.  Figured I'd just throw that in~(I'm a Defiler btw) <div></div>

[Rappy]

Them and us huh? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />careful of the "all" - most of us knew we topped the parse.  but then, none of us can debuff any incomming damage or buff anything less than a handfull of hp so anything less than top would be unreasonable<div></div>

[Goozman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NimSul wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iranos wrote:<BR><BR>And full zone we got : <BR>(01:12:30) 29295331 | 6 734,56<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Barandos DPS :  282,48 |heal : 578643 -- Warden 70 MT<BR></FONT>Andromya DPS :  0,75 |heal : 562978 -- Defiler 65 MT<BR>Anouchka DPS :  2,29 |heal : 490488 - Templar 70 MT<BR>Labdu DPS :  42,06 |heal : 426291 -- Inqui 70 Off<BR>Jolina DPS :  130,58 |heal : 356416 -- Fury 70 off<BR>Blandine DPS :  22,42 |heal : 315885 -- Templar 65 Scout team<BR>Bronux DPS :  225,65 |heal : 286269 -- Pally MT<BR>Naujicaa DPS :  68,05 |heal : 284247 -- Fury 64 Mage team<BR>Ombrus DPS :  3,07 |heal : 249295 -- Mystic 70 off<BR><BR>Yeah First !! Last week i had something like 200K more than the templar, this week, it has goes down to 100K, i feeled it in most of the fight. I m going DPS on most of named because my healing is not more needed.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im sorry but in the light of the discussion ive had in general forums about wardens on raids i couldnt help but want to point this out.<BR></P> <P>You have the highest dps AND the highest heal of all the priests :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Now if they just nerfed the size of thats stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tree you guys bring it might accually be nice to have a warden present on raids:smileysurprised:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would say the majority of those healers are slacking, with the exception of (maybe) a shaman or two keeping debuffs up. Lots of priests dont even attempt to help the raid with any sort of dps, even though they are well capable of doing so. 282 dps (if im reading that correctly) could easily be passed by any of the 6 priests, I'll cut the warden poster some slack though, because he was healing a lot :smileytongue:

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I'm telling ya, what I'm seeing is balance.  We're the best AoE healers so we're always going to show on the top of the parse from healing the group up.  The thing to remember about shamans is all their healing is concentrated on the MT, ours isn't.  We win heal parses regularly if you leave dps in the AoE.  If you have dps joust and never get hit the story would be a little different.  The shamans would win as they should.  We lose single target healing power because we're great AoE healers.</P> <P>So healings even, then the problem becomes buffs.  Lets get us some better buffs to even out that playing field because atm our buffs suck.  Once we're better buffers things will really be even between the healing classes.  </P> <P>On another note, I wonder if the intention was for druids to switch between dps and healing depending on the mob.  Sort of like EQ1 where we're versatile.  Would be nice to know if that's the road the class is going down... it would be a big change from T5 so some clarity would be nice ~.  Now that I respeced for dps I parse from around 550-730 which is OK I guess.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[Swishwah]

<DIV>Well all I'll say here is I love to group and raid with my little Warden friend Elyssa.  She has always and will always out heal me as I usually do a pre-pull ward and debuff like crazy.  I personally hold my debuffing skills as my highest priority to help minimise the damage the MT is taking, and I can do this because I have full faith in her skills.  Mix that in with our Cleric healer and we do some pretty amazing stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truth is whilst wards are quite nice when you look at the parse, we are the first line of defence as Shaman, but you guys are the savers when it comes to AOE and when wards are down.  I can no longer count on both hands how many times our Druids have saved the raid with their uber saves and group heals whilst all I could do is wait for one of my 2 second + cast time heals/wards to come up and hope it gets in there in time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are starting to get to a stage where SOE has made most healers 'equal'.  There will always differences and inequities due to one's own perceptions and bias, but they have certainly improved most classes out of site.  Can you guys remember way back when at the launch of EQ2?  My baby druid certainly wasn't what he was supposed to be, nor was my shammy.  It came down to the fact that Swishy looked much nastier than Schlappy, so she got progressed  :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and on a closing note: to the guy that wanted to just run a raid with all healer spots taken by Shammies - let me know how long you last mate, I'd appreciate the laugh  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck and Happy Hunting,</DIV> <DIV>Swishy</DIV> <DIV>Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Proud Officer of Allure</DIV>

[Zammik]

<P>I find that I'm dpsing a lot on raids.  I'm usually about equal to paladins and bards, and at least 2x higher than any of our other priests.  I come high on the heal parses too just because our casters love to eat AE's.  I don't mind AE healing them either, I don't have much else to do.</P> <P>This brings me to my point.  We score high because we really don't have anything else to cast except heals and damage.  We have 0 debuff / utility spells.  Shamans and clerics (Inqisitors more so) have lots of debuffs to cast that take up time and are unrewarded in parses.  If they didn't cast their utility spells at all - ie be a druid, then I don't think we'd doing so well.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

Well I figure it offsets because the Warden in G1 should be the main curer.  Outside of G1 I'd agree though.

[myount]

<P>I parsed 2nd to the MT Templar.  Doing the beginning of Lyceum wiith all bezerker mobs and no AOE there was no way i can beat a reactive.</P> <P> </P>

[Unmask]

<P>The only time I come close to our defilers on a parse is on an elemental AE mob like the gazers from DT.  The damage hits our elemental ward before theirs as far as I can tell.  Other AEing mobs I can sometimes win with the group heals but it's rare.  We have 2 defilers so the one in MT group is always maintaining his wards and the other is debuffing.</P> <P>And the defiler ward pet is a dog so you know they are peeing all over our tree. :p</P>

[NimSul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR> <P>And the defiler ward pet is a dog so you know they are peeing all over our tree. :p</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im trying to train my dog to pee on the wardens in stead :smileysurprised:

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div></div> <p>The only time I come close to our defilers on a parse is on an elemental AE mob like the gazers from DT.  The damage hits our elemental ward before theirs as far as I can tell.  Other AEing mobs I can sometimes win with the group heals but it's rare.  We have 2 defilers so the one in MT group is always maintaining his wards and the other is debuffing.</p> <p>And the defiler ward pet is a dog so you know they are peeing all over our tree. :p</p><hr></blockquote>LOL!(Altho to clarify, the regular ward pet is the tetrahedron, and we also an AA in the STR line that allows our pet AA to proc a Ward)</div>

[Soliestra]

Depends on how good the healers are? I know we did Lyceum without a shammy in the MT grp.  Templar and warden did fine....

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Soliestra wrote:<BR> Depends on how good the healers are? I know we did Lyceum without a shammy in the MT grp.  Templar and warden did fine....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It also depends on how easy the zone is ...<BR>

[Soliestra]

<DIV>You asked the question of what encounters were being done with no shammy.....so I answered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>