Why does everyone think the warden is broke?

[Duethor]

<div>Warning: This Post is heavily laced with opinion, if you can't handle opinions, skip this post.</div><div> </div><div>Why does everyone's inability to play this class quickly jump them to the conclusion that this class is broke.  I have a 61 warden, that is my main, and I absolutely love it. I easily keep everyone alive, cause enough damage that I feel like I help bring the mob down, and with appropriately placed hate decreasers, have no problem ditching hate when I gain it.  And my abilities are adept 1 at best.    I think everyone wants 1 class that does everything, but unfortunately if that was the case,  there would be no need for the other classes.   Oh well, just my opinion and tired of listening to everyone run wardens into the ground.</div>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Duethor wrote:<div>Warning: This Post is heavily laced with opinion, if you can't handle opinions, skip this post.</div><div> </div><div>Why does everyone's inability to play this class quickly jump them to the conclusion that this class is broke.  I have a 61 warden, that is my main, and I absolutely love it. I easily keep everyone alive, cause enough damage that I feel like I help bring the mob down, and with appropriately placed hate decreasers, have no problem ditching hate when I gain it.  And my abilities are adept 1 at best.    I think everyone wants 1 class that does everything, but unfortunately if that was the case,  there would be no need for the other classes.   Oh well, just my opinion and tired of listening to everyone run wardens into the ground.</div><hr></blockquote><p>well...partially true...there is *one* person who comes to mind that does run wardens into the ground :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>but, other than that, you will read some fairly constructive threads about the problems that wardens really do have...i think if you run through one of them (there will be one of them towards the top of the forum), you'll see that there are some valid concerns</p><p>i do agree with you, however, that some of the threads compare our capabilities with other healer classes, and when this happens, i too usually disagree...i have never wanted wardens to be the *same* heals/dps/buffs/debuffs, etc.</p><p>what i would like to see though, is for SoE to fix the spells we currently have...i think that would already be a huge move forward...just make those "dead" buttons on the hotbar useful and perform like they were designed to be</p>

[Shadus]

We're not broken in the broad sense of the word, we have some issues solo healing some high end zones (its not impossible in most cases just very hard) because we don't handle the burst dps well.  The class could use some improvements and needs several bugs and issues fixed, but most of us don't believe the class is broken.  That's just slayerwarrior. slayerwarrior. slayerwarrior.  There i've said his name 3 times he'll come plague your thread and explain how he's the besterest warden evers and if he cant do it no one else can and how everyone hates wardens and destroys all their master spells so they cant have them and how we suck and are the most broken class in game (ill stop now, but he can go on for pages... at one sentance per post.)<div></div>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shadus wrote:We're not broken in the broad sense of the word, we have some issues solo healing some high end zones (its not impossible in most cases just very hard) because we don't handle the burst dps well. <div></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not really sure that *any* healer class can solo heal high end zones...any other healing class that i've been in a group with can't solo heal

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shadus wrote:We're not broken in the broad sense of the word, we have some issues solo healing some high end zones (its not impossible in most cases just very hard) because we don't handle the burst dps well. <div></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not really sure that *any* healer class can solo heal high end zones...any other healing class that i've been in a group with can't solo heal<hr></blockquote>Yep.  I haven't soloed healed much of anything lately.  And seeing how much damage is coming out of teh mobs in places like Halls of Fate, I am not sure I want to try!Additionally, I will be publishing results soon (hopefully this weekend) on some analysis I did on the 3 types of specialty heals.  I think Druids will be quite pleased with how Regens actually fare.</span><div></div>

[Treve]

<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shadus wrote:We're not broken in the broad sense of the word, we have some issues solo healing some high end zones (its not impossible in most cases just very hard) because we don't handle the burst dps well. <div></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not really sure that *any* healer class can solo heal high end zones...any other healing class that i've been in a group with can't solo heal<hr></blockquote>Yep.  I haven't soloed healed much of anything lately.  And seeing how much damage is coming out of teh mobs in places like Halls of Fate, I am not sure I want to try!Additionally, I will be publishing results soon (hopefully this weekend) on some analysis I did on the 3 types of specialty heals.  I think Druids will be quite pleased with how Regens actually fare.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>i don't think a group would even accept a solo-healer group...going back to the big combat update (CU), i think part of the purpose was to diversify the healing classes and bring specific strengths to each class...that was pretty much the end of solo-healer groups as a common occurance

[HB-]

I've managed to solo heal all the KoS instances Vault and HoF included, the trick for HoF was having a Mezzer in the group. I've been very pleased with the way we can heal, takes work I won't lie but very few deaths and very happy groups are the result.P.S. Sandstorm really does help the group, and the spike damage.Temptation<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div>To OP. Why do you presume to know what everyone thinks? Here is a lot of information on issues that many Wardens have with our spells (<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13908" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=13908</a>) and suggestions to what should be done with them.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HB-37 wrote:P.S. Sandstorm really does help the group, and the spike damage.Temptation<div></div><hr></blockquote>just as an add-on...i know a lot of wardens have raised the issue of Sandstorm not working in raids...true...but in KoS, Sandstorm can make/break the success of an encounter

[Barand]

You are only seeing a minority of player who can't play very well their warden. If you play it well you will have no problem doing anything. The issue is at least for me (for the 1000th times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) : we have some spell we don't use at all and we lack utility in raid.Nothing is really broken and we can do as well as other priest most of the time, that's why no dev comment on us, but we miss special things unlike other priest.If they remove tunare watch, nature respite, hierophantic genesis and tranquility from our spell, that would not change my life at all and i will be as good as now 99% of the time. They keep giving us bad spell line thinking we are still the uber healer pre LU13, we just want to have the same good line every other priest get at lvl 52 65 and 70  at least.We were in line with other priest after lu 13 (when the bug was fixed) and we felt behind for every new spell added (not by a huge margin since these spell are meant to be utility spell).<div></div>

[ZandaStrooth]

<div></div><p>I love my 68 warden too Duethor, don't let the forums fool you, there are many wardens who love their char <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Most of the time people post here is when they see a bug, or something else is wrong. There is no need to post here if you think everything is ok. That's why you can get a wrong idea on how everyone thinks about his char if you base it only on what you read here.</p>

[myount]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:You are only seeing a minority of player who can't play very well their warden. If you play it well you will have no problem doing anything. The issue is at least for me (for the 1000th times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) : we have some spell we don't use at all and we lack utility in raid.Nothing is really broken and we can do as well as other priest most of the time, that's why no dev comment on us, but we miss special things unlike other priest.If they remove tunare watch, nature respite, hierophantic genesis and tranquility from our spell, that would not change my life at all and i will be as good as now 99% of the time. They keep giving us bad spell line thinking we are still the uber healer pre LU13, we just want to have the same good line every other priest get at lvl 52 65 and 70  at least.We were in line with other priest after lu 13 (when the bug was fixed) and we felt behind for every new spell added (not by a huge margin since these spell are meant to be utility spell).<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I would like a good class defining spell.   Give me a better Mit buff or a nice HP buff.  I am happy with the healing as it is, i have no real problems as long as i pay attention and dont watch tv =P</p><p>Take away Tunare's Watch+Natures Respite+Hiero+Tranquilty and give us ONE good spell.  Its sad that most of our unique ancient spells were total crap.</p>

[slayerwarrior]

shadus name 1 post i have ever put up says warden are broken? but for most part we suck at spike damg! are tools really suck like tree , are debuffs they poof if their sneeze on , and ant deaths are useless. ha is about useless, only thing we are ok AT is healing other then that thier not much their!BUT I NEVER SAID WE WERE BROKEN JUST ONLY OK FOR 1 THING HEALING THATS IT!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:52 AM</span></p>

[SweetSynergy]

<div></div><p>We're not broken, just some of our spells, etc need to be looked at. </p><p>We're gonna be broken if they give us that horrible bear hat thingy though lol. argggggg its ugly.</p>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:shadus name 1 post i have ever put up says warden are broken? but for most part we suck at spike damg! are tools really suck like tree , are debuffs they poof if their sneeze on , and ant deaths are useless. ha is about useless, only thing we are ok AT is healing other then that thier not much their!BUT I NEVER SAID WE WERE BROKEN JUST ONLY OK FOR 1 THING HEALING THATS IT!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:52 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>We're priests our primary function is to heal.  Imagine what its like being a templar if you want to talk about being one dimensional. </p><p>Dps wise we're probably on top for priest classes I average around 450 dps (on single target) spam nuking on raids when I am not healing.  HA is useful in certain situations ie on a mob with stun/knockback (if your like me and can take the ae and are too lazy to move out of range). </p><p>The only thing I think that sucks on my char is our rezz, reincarnation.</p><p>As for spike damage every healer has a downside ours is spikedamage.</p>

[Kyralis]

I can pretty easily solo heal all of the KoS group content. The only mob that I have issues with is Ishtaran in HoF, who can pretty much just randomly two-shot your tank. Roots FTW there, though, so I can still technically solo heal that, too. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As mentioned above, Sandstorm is a big win in group situations. It's only in raid situations where it becomes useless.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<div></div>Dunno i have played mystics and defilers and templars and wardens and furies in groups and raids. The warden is one of the better healers out of those classes imho both in group and raids. whiel we do have issues with the BIG heal we generally cast fast enuff to deal with that issue. DPS wise we are below furies but above the other classes. IMHO out of all the healers i have played above Mystics seem to be the trickiest to play. Now i don''t claim to be a master of healers. I found it the most difficult (which is not neccesrily bad) because of the long cast timers and lack of direct healing. Not counting the emergency heals mystics have 2 wards (1 single and 1 group) and 2 heals 1 single and 1 group all of which are longer cast times then any warden heal. Wardens on the other hand have 3 single heals/regens that stack and are castable fairly quick. (and 2 group regens) Just my 2 cents.

[sausageburner]

<div></div><div>I dont care what all you say or think I absolutely love playing my warden and I have absolutely no regrets making one. Sure we have some issues with a couple buffs and having barely and debuffs but thats it, our healing is fine and our DPS is fine. What it comes down to is all of our complaining isnt gonna do anything and all these threads on how we are broke or nerfed is absolutely pointless. If some of you played your warden as much as you complained about em you would be 70 by now.</div><div> </div><div>My opinion, stop crying or make another healer class.</div>

[Shadus]

You scream we're broken constantly about everything, we're apparently subpar healer, we have no class defining abilities, we can't deal with burst dps, everyone hates druids, etc... go back and read your own posts.   You're the biggest whiner i've ever seen.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

we have no class defining abilities beside regen= healing other that we are about worthless but please name all the great tool we have besides healing? i can name only one thats are dogs beside that name these great spells please?????

[Shadus]

Yawn, all of these questions have been answered by a dozen people in a dozen threads.  You even manage to whine in a post saying you're not whining.  Betray to a fury for gods sake.<div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shadus wrote:Yawn, all of these questions have been answered by a dozen people in a dozen threads.  You even manage to whine in a post saying you're not whining.  Betray to a fury for gods sake.<div></div><hr></blockquote>No please keep him on your boards we dont want him:smileymad:

[slayerwarrior]

Yawn, all of these questions have been answered by a dozen people in a dozen threads. You even manage to whine in a post saying you're not whining. Betray to a fury for gods sake.weeee i'm having fun now. next part get everone say we need a nerf alomg with furys then my jobs done!looks like i need hit fury boards next!

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><p>To the OP, if you think the whining is bad over here you should check out some of the other boards. I think, on the whole, Druids are one of the least contetious classes.:womanwink:</p><p>To Shadus: Why Why WHY did you invoke his name?!:womantongue:</p><p>To Quetzaqotl: Now look what you've done. :womansad:</p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:29 PM</span></p>

[Mrrockmeister]

Heya everyoneWell I have to totally disagree with Slayer on this subject.  I have healed for many raids, and the spells that are used are not just heals.- I do use my tree every mob when I'm in the main group.  The extra heals do help very much (I use the master 1 version)- I do cure many impairments on the MT.- Between mobs or near the end of a fight, if the tank is low on power, I do use my heiro spell on him to help boost power.  That combined with shards and hearts, he regains power very quickly.- I do agree though that sandstorm in raid form would be very usefull, as I use it in groups alot.- Our dogs greatly help DPS- Our WIS, AGI and COLD and HEAT buffs are a huge reason we are put in the main group- Our increase on crushing, piercing, slashing and ranged buffs are great for the DPS classes to haveI could go on, but those are the class specific things that we bring to a raid.  I will also never flame a fury by saying we are better, as I have been in the main group of a raid with me and a fury, and they bring many other things we lack to the mix.  Wis and Int boosts, group cures, DPS, and a stacking group regen.All in all, I love my Warden.  I never regret having chosen his path, and I do love the fact that their aren't overloads of us.  Kinda makes us more unique <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Take Care<div></div>

[Isharie]

<div><font size="3" face="Comic Sans MS">I have to agree that there isn't really anything wrong with Wardens...basically it's a matter of people not knowing how to play them. But i would like our heals a wee bit bigger... and yes we are great in raids with our bonus to dps and such  and every few classes have different cures to get rid of dots and such..anyway..this is just me...if you dont like Wardens, dont complain about them..just betray or something or make another class for Christ's sake.. *cough* slayer *cough, cough* :smileywink:</font></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div>Let me say one thing about this.  I was a little down on the class when I first hit the higher 60s and couldn't solo heal halls of fate.  I was shocked since my xping strategy has always been to solo heal, tank, util and 3 dps to rip through mobs.</div><div> </div><div>Now that I've gotten some upgrades and stuff and have more AA points my fears were put down.  I can solo heal halls of fate easily and nuke through the first bit and still hit ~300 dps before the centurions.  On centurions I have to heal a bit so I'm only hitting ~150 with the occasional nuke here and there (I switch into my ft gear too instead of buffing int).  It's fun to try to rip through mobs and compete with the DPS on the parser while solo healing too.  In raids on trash mobs I've hit 580 dps and out parse plate tanks (when I don't have to heal).  In raids when it's a harder encounter and I'm healing I'm almost doubling the next healer in the raid (Inquisator with his master solo reactive parsed 2nd but I was the only druid in this raid).  I always win by a LOT when I'm healing though.</div><div> </div><div>Don't think we're broken at all, spike damage is nothing and we're the best at healing it with our shorter casting times on our heals.  Only problems I've encountered is the one mob that can hit for 14k in halls of fate because it hits for more hps then the tank has.  Even then there are ways around it and we take him down every time I go.</div><div> </div><div>About Orange con raid mobs.... how many of you have fought them at cap in PoS so far?  I haven't fought one yet and I believe they changed the content around and there aren't many.  I've seen the claymore ones in FP and Qeynos, that's it but haven't been in Deathtoll.  Gorenaire, Talendor, Lord Vymn and Harla Dar are all 64.</div><div> </div><div>Have no fear lowbie Wardens, you're fine at cap.  It'd be nice if they just outright through out some of our buffs and gave us something useful, but I'll take being a healing monster instead.</div><div> </div><div>Mayi - Lords of Chaos - Kithicor</div>

[Shadus]

That's more or a less what everyone has been saying.... except slayer.<div></div>

[faeriefy]

<div></div><p>I agree with HB-37, KoS can be solo healed. It just takes work. I was in a HoF group last week as the only healer. Like him we had a mez caster and it worked well. Some death but it was lots of fun.  I also do feel useful during raids and am usually in the MT group along with our mystic. We aren't a major raid guild but we don't do too bad either. All in all I love being a warden.</p><p>Besides without wardens who would keep the templars in line? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Kassanthala]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mrrockmeister wrote:Heya everyoneWell I have to totally disagree with Slayer on this subject.  I have healed for many raids, and the spells that are used are not just heals.- I do use my tree every mob when I'm in the main group.  The extra heals do help very much (I use the master 1 version)- I do cure many impairments on the MT.- Between mobs or near the end of a fight, if the tank is low on power, I do use my heiro spell on him to help boost power.  That combined with shards and hearts, he regains power very quickly.- I do agree though that sandstorm in raid form would be very usefull, as I use it in groups alot.- Our dogs greatly help DPS- Our WIS, AGI and COLD and HEAT buffs are a huge reason we are put in the main group- Our increase on crushing, piercing, slashing and ranged buffs are great for the DPS classes to haveI could go on, but those are the class specific things that we bring to a raid.  I will also never flame a fury by saying we are better, as I have been in the main group of a raid with me and a fury, and they bring many other things we lack to the mix.  Wis and Int boosts, group cures, DPS, and a stacking group regen.All in all, I love my Warden.  I never regret having chosen his path, and I do love the fact that their aren't overloads of us.  Kinda makes us more unique <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Take Care<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Right on the button. I'm also put in the MT group too for those reasons (although my pets are mainly put cast t take ae damage <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> poor doggies). As for the things a fury brings? Int boosts dont help MT that much, ALL healers have group cures (every healer has a group cure that cures 2 things), and our single regens stack with our group regen AND the tree regen - our stacking heal regen spells far outweigh any other healer - it just makes people nervous to see the tank go into the red before our regens bring him to full health despite the beatings he's getting <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I've also solo healed every instance in KoS - but... usually with a group of friends and a lot of dps so we work well together and HoF is doable but not fun to solo heal.</p><p>And yeah being the only warden on the raid or in group when those master spells drop? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> although i think they have started becoming the flavor of the month, i've noticed far too many more wardens lately.</p><p>Either way - a good raid leader is gonna pick his MT group for what kind of assets they bring to that peticular encounter. Wardens are good for the heavy heat/cold trauma damage of an epic encounter and other healers are good for the other types of damage.</p>

[missconstrue]

i agree we are not broken but .. i do think there are some things that can be improved. the post of consolidated issues has a lot of good ideas. i think we have a few spells that need some attention . the frustrating part for  those of us that feel that way is they are the spells that are unique to wardens.  heirophants genesis - i think needs a bigger heal component and to increase its utility a bigger power feed.  sandstorm was an awesome spell on raids and now is useful primarily for heroic mobs and not on raids - i think it would be really nice if it was once again useful on raids. furies porc is useful on raids and that is great. i just think it would balance us if sandstorm had some use in raids as well. i think they need to look at the line of spells tunares watch, natures respite etc. - they are meant to save the tank when things are going bad and i think they are not doing that very well. we have a wonderful tree and i think it needs to scale like the puppies.i think our buffs for wis and agility are nice but the tanks i play with feel that the resists they get from the wis buff are nice but not as useful as a mit buffs they get from other healers. they feel the new t7 jewelry will give them all the resists they need. i am not a plate tank and can't speak to that, its just the discussion i see in guild chat. we have one cold debuff and an agility debuff . the agility debuff also does not work on epic mobs.i really enjoy my warden and feel we heal well. we may have to work a bit harder then other healers to keep our groups healthy but we have a lot to offer when played well.just my opinion69 warden oasis server<div></div>

[Valshyra]

<div></div><div></div>i love my warden, and i agree with what others have said.I wouldn't trade her for anything!!!!! .yes there are things that need to be fixed, but i  hink every class has things that need to be fixed:smileytongue: yes there are a few whiners, that say we are broken or this that and the other thing... but like someone else stated, most of us dont post or reply cause we now we arent borked!!:smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by Valshyra on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:50 PM</span></p>

[Gungo]

<div></div>talk about broken abilites anyone having problems with our cold/heat ward not working all the time?

[slayerwarrior]

most of are utility suck, and havine 50% dh and 50% hot just unreasonable, but if u want say we can heal then most are very right we can do that job, But few changes would be nice.Sure we can be OK healer's but after that we really have nothing.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well, I think the problem is that we'd be overpowered if they gave us too much.  Here's an example.  Yesterday in PoA I was working on claymore and we got lots of adds in that side room.  3 lvl 67 triple ups, 2 groups of 2 lvl 67 double ups (or something like that).  It was me (Warden), dirge tanking with another dirge as dps (we were questing here).</p><p>I group healed and of course got aggro from 2 of the triples and a group of 2 doubles.  I run back 10 feet, aoe anti-hate to root the mobs, go back into meleeing mobs.  I then kept 1 triple up rooted just long enough to finish off killing the other groups and kept the other 2 encounters rooted until we had cleared what we had.  That's 5 encounters of lvl 67s heroics we took with me, dirge tanking and another dirge as dps.</p><p>After telling guildies about it all the comments were about Wardens being overpowered.  I think it's how you play the class because we have lots of versatility, it's about the player and if you use it.</p><p>About raids... yea, our buffs are [Removed for Content].  But we outheal every other healing class by lots so there's some balance.  Just gotta get rid of duststorm, it's overpowering in group situations but hard to use effectively while solo healing.  We'd be better off if they junked it and just gave us better buffs.  If you get lots of encounters with 2 healers you can use duststorm well but doing anything with 2 healers is boring and takes too long.</p><p>And btw... solo healing halls of fate is FUN.  That's what floats my boat at least, pushing what you can do in the game.  Like doing cazels mesa with no tank and just me, temp and bunch of casters back when we were 60 or trying to trio Drayek at 60.  Another thing that I remembered was fun was solo healing PP with 5 with a dirge tanking.  Dirges make pretty good tanks btw.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:29 PM</span></p>

[Akhashi]

<div></div><p>I love my warden also.  I solo healed Halls of Fate at lvl 64 with a 67 tank, he hit 68 right before Septimus.  I love our roots, yes they arent worth crap in a raid but they rock when solo or duoing with a mage.  I use Sandstorm all the time, I use all my spells except the sylph line, I have roots, why do i need that?   I am always in the MT group in a raid..  I agree with the others, if you don't like it play another  class or learn how to play this one<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>Krazeeladee</p><p>70 Warden</p>

[Nasithe]

<div></div>I'll take a warden over any other class as my healer.Temps and Inquis can be back-ups.Furies just another DPSDefiler/mystic meh can live without them.But the warden gotta lovem. Their cute and primed for healing quickly and efficiently. Sure they got some broke skills. Sure the Fury can out dmg the warden. But thats why the warden is better then the fury. Wardens trade off dmg for better faster heals. While the fury trades off healing for better dps.Though give me both in a group and I'll smile even more. Just learn how to play the warden. =)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nasithe on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:34 AM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

SRY BUT LOL really the last post is just to funny pass up i started cry in tear's laughing so hard.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:17 AM</span></p>

[Barand]

Try the 3 possibility :A raid without shaman, a raid without druid and a raid without clericwithout shaman :We already test it, the tank drop in raid in pull and after every big hit. It is very hard to keep the tank health up and if you have no luck your tank die (2 big hit in a row). We were having a rough time on trash in labo without mystic. When the mystic arrive tank health was always in the green.without cleric :Less impressive, the tank drop into orange only. But still you feel it when they are not here, no wipe, but lots harder.without druid :Not that much of difference...  i was the only druid in the raid so i drop my buff and goes on only dps, tank was always in green without me. Noone in the raid even notice that i have done that.In group i feel like a main healer no issue, in raid most of the time i m much more a backup healer.The big number on parse are just due to our big group heal...<div></div>

[Rappy]

Cleric and Shamen specialist heals are designed specifically to take the initial damage from a raid mob, as a warden on a raid I actually keep DI on the tank during the first 10% of a mob until all the debuffs are in.Warden direct heals are like getting a truck moving.  After about 10 seconds they overtake all other classes in healing power and burn up faster healing for 15% more in 60 seconds.  Trust me I have spent a while on this.Wardens are NOT vital to the initial damage taken by a tank, but we do have two DI's for the huge spikes that even the shammy and clerics cannot handle.  Face it, we are not designed to do what clerics and shamen do.  We get more than enough compensation for this from our direct healing range.Anyone that says to you that warden heals are crap is just plain wrong.<div></div>

[Barand]

I agree with you rappy, i have done my test on trash mob, there is no way a raid force can do a hard named without any of the 3 archetype, each one has it use. Shaman for the start, then come cleric and Druid for the final healingIf you dont have a shaman you die at first hit, if you don't have a druid you will die when a fast heal is needed.I m not speaking about healing number but  more about the heal and buff / debuff each archetype provide generally.Warden do not make a life or death difference on the normal mob, whereas other archetype does.If our mystic or cleric doesn't cast their buff, our MT will thell them because is hp will be too low. If they are cast no ward or reactive (it happen on a linkdead for example), i will immediatly see it, as the hp will drop quickly, debuff are not really noticable since a lot of people in the raid can cast them but play a role in global efficiency. That's not really the case for warden. No real big improvment on MT (there are some but nothing immediatly noticeable and nothing big), no debuff, and hot 'way of healing' that always had is issue.Note : i raid most of the time with 4 to 6 healer so comparison is a bit easier. I have done some raid without shaman with 8 healer and their absence is not really noticable(3 druid fast healing can make up for the lack of ward).<div></div>

[Nasithe]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:SRY BUT LOL really the last post is just to funny pass up i started cry in tear's laughing so hard.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Its okay captain. I laugh @ you all the time when reading many of your replies. I'm glad you found humor in it as much as I did.Though if you think it means I don't like wardens cause I found it humorous your wrong. That'll never change since I am one. =) And I've found it relatively easy an enjoyable to play in a group even as the only healer. Often times I have to ask the tank to quit being so damned conservative as I'm falling asleep.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Nasithe on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:12 PM</span></p>

[Faeoren]

<div>Mrrock that is one of the best pro-Warden posts I have read.  All of the things he stated are absolutely critical to keeping the MT alive on raids.  I can't even tell you how many healers don't even have their cures on their hot bars!!!  That is the first thing I teach the healers in my guild.  Our verdant line, along with single target cures, are essential.  If the tank gets dispatched and you don't cure that trauma immediately, you're toast.  Also, I have seen many Wardens neglect to use their Untamed line spell.  The ward plus extra mit against cold and heat are vital against many of the t6 and t7 raid encounter mobs (and non epic mobs as well).  Wardens are also great at group healing with our group regen stacked with our group DH.  And when you're doing easy stuff when you don't have to concentrate so much on healer, we add a nice bit of DPS to the mix.</div><div> </div><div>As for solo healing, I have solo healed every instance and zone in KoS.  Of course at lower levels it was more difficult, but manageable nonetheless.  Don't underestimate yourselves Wardens! </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[slayerwarrior]

Nasithe i did have fun playing a warden, but i have also roll mystic just see spell lines i must say they have alot more tool's even at lvl 10 then a warden. I just like see bigger roll for warden in raids as of now it's very sad tools we have.Glad see u fine humor my post i do get upset easy some time's <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:10 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

Isharie said (yes we are great in raids with our bonus to dps)(I have to agree that there isn't really anything wrong with Wardens...basically it's a matter of people not knowing how to play them)Why everone fall back on saying we have dps? I did not make a warden to be a dps char but infact made one to play defensive role. From everone post i have read thier argument is we add dps but soe has us labled as defensive healing class clearly at this moment we are not filling the defensive role.At level 70 master 1 subzero 1k damage hit how is that adding dps anyways?The fact is and allways will be are spells and buffs are not even close to other defensive healing classes, and trying say we add dps to raid's even show we are not for filling are defensive role.note: To give argument that we add dps should clearly show we are not doing are role as defensive HEALING class!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:44 PM</span></p>

[Mrrockmeister]

HmmI don't think your getting it slayer.  We are a defensive class which most are stating, but we also add dps to the mix.  Meaning, we don't out dps other classes, but we ADD a bit of our own dps to help.Have u ever tried a T6-T7 mystic with DPS?  I have a good friend who plays one, and unfortunately, he says they suck horribly.  So we are kinda in the middle.  We can heal our butts off, while still being able to add more DPS than some classes.That's all everyone is saying.  And I also agree with having not only a warden in a raid.  But have u ever tried not having a druid class in a raid, and let's say just having a mystic as the savior?  9 times out of 10, they won't last due to their lack of DH and regen.  Same with clerics, they just can't keep up most of the time.The ultimate raid group is a shaman class for the brunt shot, a cleric class for the reactives, and a druid class for the regens.  That combo is at most times unstopable.Take one away, and it's harder for each class to make up the lost slack.  But I have healed in a raid with just a mystic and myself very well.  Each class alone is vulnerable, but together they work great.Take Care<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

(HmmI don't think your getting it slayer. We are a defensive class which most are stating, but we also add dps to the mix. Meaning, we don't out dps other classes, but we ADD a bit of our own dps to help.Have u ever tried a T6-T7 mystic with DPS? I have a good friend who plays one, and unfortunately, he says they suck horribly. So we are kinda in the middle. We can heal our butts off, while still being able to add more DPS than some classes.That's all everyone is saying. And I also agree with having not only a warden in a raid. But have u ever tried not having a druid class in a raid, and let's say just having a mystic as the savior? 9 times out of 10, they won't last due to their lack of DH and regen. Same with clerics, they just can't keep up most of the time.The ultimate raid group is a shaman class for the brunt shot, a cleric class for the reactives, and a druid class for the regens. That combo is at most times unstopable.Take one away, and it's harder for each class to make up the lost slack. But I have healed in a raid with just a mystic and myself very well. Each class alone is vulnerable, but together they work great)Once again u are trying say we add dps that IS not a role of a defensive healing class imo more importantly once again u your words (We can heal our butts off) That the problem that seem to be all that we can do!Besides We do not out heal any other healing class! but we are out gun in buffs, and in deuffs. (I can also say this to) We might add little more dps and i do mean little but we also have no debuff's attach to them like other defensive healing classes does!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 PM</span></p>

[Akhashi]

<div></div><p>Hmm we have a debuf....Glacial cold is an elemental debuff.....if used right, wizards love it.  I can honestly say that while some may think things are broke, I would prefer tobeleft alone then to be nerfed again because people are complaining for no good reason.  My tree does survive the AE in some raids and helps with recovering from one.  I am always in the MT group while the fury is in the mage group for the int buffs.  I can precast my regens and our ward and be just as able to handle the initial burst of damage just as well as any other class.  If you ask me some people need to just find another class or a whole different game because if they are not happy with one class they more than likely are gonna find something to complain about with every class.</p><p> </p><p>Krazeeladee</p><p>70 Warden</p><p>Befallen</p>

[Rappy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:Once again u are trying say we add dps that IS not a role of a defensive healing class imo more importantly once again u your words (We can heal our butts off) That the problem that seem to be all that we can do!Besides We do not out heal any other healing class! but we are out gun in buffs, and in deuffs. (I can also say this to) We might add little more dps and i do mean little but we also have no debuff's attach to them like other defensive healing classes does!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh go play your mystic</span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>I'm sorry but are people saying that shamans help on pulls?  What game are you playing.  Any shaman that wards on pull is a dead shaman because it generates too much hate.  Mob just makes a b-line for them.  If you're getting a shaman to ward on pulls and surviving please let me know... gotta wonder [Removed for Content] some people are talking about on these forums when they obviously don't raid.</p><p>Some people even list abilities we don't get as proof of something....</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:50 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

If you are refering to me.. which i doubt..Pulls are different evil's than initial damage and the difference should be obvious, i know of few shamen that dont start with ward before loading the DH's once the mob is pulled, same for the cleric reactive.  Why? because it is the most reliable and powerful way of dealing with a damage spike on a raid is buying time for the other classes to off-load a DH.  The warden role in those initial pre-debuff times is to keep DI on the tank whilst maintaining regen, curing and popping DH's, the fury shines here using BiTF and their monster fast DH's<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

I'm sorry but are people saying that shamans help on pulls? What game are you playing. Any shaman that wards on pull is a dead shaman because it generates too much hate. Mob just makes a b-line for them. If you're getting a shaman to ward on pulls and surviving please let me know... gotta wonder [Removed for Content] some people are talking about on these forums when they obviously don't raid.)Funny our mystic and templar allways have ward's and reactor's up on pull if not=dead mt! they never die. That why u have a dirge in mt group for he's hate buff.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:14 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:I'm sorry but are people saying that shamans help on pulls? What game are you playing. Any shaman that wards on pull is a dead shaman because it generates too much hate. Mob just makes a b-line for them. If you're getting a shaman to ward on pulls and surviving please let me know... gotta wonder [Removed for Content] some people are talking about on these forums when they obviously don't raid.)Funny our mystic and templar allways have ward's and reactor's up on pull if not=dead mt! they never die. That why u have a dirge in mt group for he's hate buff.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:14 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually you will probably find the tank is pulling with 'Rescue' the extra agro buffs such as the % buff from dirge is unlikely to make such a difference on pull.  Rescue usually offsets the issue with initial agro from the shamen and clerics.  The guy still has a point tho.  This should be done with great care and only on a tank you know is capable of keeping the agro.  If the tank pulls with an arrow i dont care what your hate buff is, the shamen is a dead man.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:20 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:Once again u are trying say we add dps that IS not a role of a defensive healing class imo more importantly once again u your words (We can heal our butts off) That the problem that seem to be all that we can do!Besides We do not out heal any other healing class! but we are out gun in buffs, and in deuffs. (I can also say this to) We might add little more dps and i do mean little but we also have no debuff's attach to them like other defensive healing classes does!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh go play your mystic</span></div><hr></blockquote>Um yes i will untill they bring wardens more in to a true defensive role, but right now as it stand we are not living up to are true role as defensive healing class. For anyone talk about 1 debuff and 1 ward that is very limited in use(well atleast the ward)We have nothing to offer but regen!add note: rappy how can u even say if we had true big direct heal we need to be nerf. All other healing classes have this what make us so much better? Are buff are [Removed for Content], we have 1 debuff 1 ward.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:51 PM</span></p>

[Mrrockmeister]

<div></div>I don't know Slayer.... I'm at a loss with you.  You don't get what anyone here is posting from what I can see.  And if you really have such a problem like in your 500 previous posts, then why are u still playing a warden?These forums are for knowledge and a place to share issues, and suggestions for our class, not to consistently say there is something wrong with them, or that we don't measure up to the other classes.Like I've said in previous posts, I love my warden, and never regret choosing his path.  But you seem like you need to get away from the warden.  You have too much hate towards it.And if after all this, you still don't see the light, then you are hopeless.In plain english.....  The warden isn't a TRULY COMPLETE DEFENSIVE CLASS.  I'm not sure where you read that, or got the impression of that.  No class is completely defensive period.  Not even a guardian, as they would have to remove any slash, bash or dmg spell and replace every one of them with plain ole taunts.  That would make them completely defensive.Every class has an offensive, no matter how small it is.  Once you understand this, then I think everyone here will be better off.Oh and forgot to add, you stated again that we are out healed...  have you read anything anyone has posted?  We are not out healed in any way.  WE out heal most. Take Care<div></div><p>Message Edited by Mrrockmeister on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:06 AM</span></p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Rappy wrote:Cleric and Shamen specialist heals are designed specifically to take the initial damage from a raid mob, as a warden on a raid I actually keep DI on the tank during the first 10% of a mob until all the debuffs are in.<p><font color="#ffff00">Well we have a 20s and a 36s DI.  Problem with the DI is after it procs it's over so if tank is hit again he is dead.  It happens all the time.  So what happens if you wipe quick on a bad pull and your DIs are down for a while?  Do you sit and wait for them to repop?</font>Warden direct heals are like getting a truck moving.  After about 10 seconds they overtake all other classes in healing power and burn up faster healing for 15% more in 60 seconds.  Trust me I have spent a while on this.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Well our role is really to heal after reactives and wards are down.  But please it's not like we haven't spent our time healing since it's really all we can do on a raid.  The issue isn't that we aren't good healers it's that we're easier to replace than the shaman/cleric on a raid.  That's a balance issue and goes to our having virtually no raid utility outside of healing.</font></p><p>Wardens are NOT vital to the initial damage taken by a tank, but we do have two DI's for the huge spikes that even the shammy and clerics cannot handle.  Face it, we are not designed to do what clerics and shamen do.  We get more than enough compensation for this from our direct healing range.Anyone that says to you that warden heals are crap is just plain wrong.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I think there is only 1 person on this board who says this (and we all know who).  Every healer gets 1 DI and the recasts on ours are too long to be adequate for the shortcomings of the DI spells - and since you keep bringing up how good TW is, what other lvl 52 marquee spells other healer class get do you prefer TW over?  And while I agree that our DHs are good, I don't think they are so vastly superior to make up for our disadvantages relative to other priest classes.  </font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:Why everone fall back on saying we have dps? I did not make a warden to be a dps char but infact made one to play defensive role. From everone post i have read thier argument is we add dps but soe has us labled as defensive healing class clearly at this moment we are not filling the defensive role.At level 70 master 1 subzero 1k damage hit how is that adding dps anyways?<hr></blockquote>Sorry but you're wrong.  If you look at the dps tiers from the combat update we are in the same tier as furies.  If you don't want to play a dps healer then you should not have picked a druid.  We may be a defensive druid but since launch all druids have been defined as offensive priests and dps is our utility.   This is probably the root of our issue with raid utility since dps is not useful to us on raids so improving our raid utility would probably overpower us in group/solo encounters.  Doing so as a tradeoff with dps would underpower wardens who don't raid and I presume that the vast majority of wardens are not raiders (which is also why I don't agree with removing the duststorm line since it is very useful to most of us).

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Um, pulling with rescue doesn't work.  The range is 10 metres, aggro range is almost 20.  You could have a dirge and a coercer in G1 with a shaman in an off group with a troub.  You still can't ward on pull because the tank will get resisted ~40% of the time.  Wiping 40% of the time on pull is unacceptable when you can just not ward on pull to get around it.  Plus rescue is a single target ability and there are next to no raid mobs that are just one mob....</p><p>As for removing duststorm, I'm in favor of that if they replace it with something that's useful in more circumstances.  A buff that's useful across soloing, grouping and raiding would be ideal and I can understand you might not want to lose it given it's power.  However think of it in terms of making your class more balanced and fun to play.  On my server I see people asking for a 'shaman' or 'cleric' for hof.  Even though you can solo heal things, the common perception seems to be it's best to take a cleric and shaman to a zone like HoF instead of 1 Warden.  Plus if you do go dps warden with a 2nd healer, have you ever noticed that the druid gets blamed if you wipe?  We all know it's always the other healer's fault <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's not the best situation atm even though we are a little overpowered for grouping situations.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Um, pulling with rescue doesn't work.  The range is 10 metres, aggro range is almost 20.  You could have a dirge and a coercer in G1 with a shaman in an off group with a troub.  You still can't ward on pull because the tank will get resisted ~40% of the time.  Wiping 40% of the time on pull is unacceptable when you can just not ward on pull to get around it.  Plus rescue is a single target ability and there are next to no raid mobs that are just one mob....</p><p>As for removing duststorm, I'm in favor of that if they replace it with something that's useful in more circumstances.  A buff that's useful across soloing, grouping and raiding would be ideal and I can understand you might not want to lose it given it's power.  However think of it in terms of making your class more balanced and fun to play.  On my server I see people asking for a 'shaman' or 'cleric' for hof.  Even though you can solo heal things, the common perception seems to be it's best to take a cleric and shaman to a zone like HoF instead of 1 Warden.  Plus if you do go dps warden with a 2nd healer, have you ever noticed that the druid gets blamed if you wipe?  We all know it's always the other healer's fault <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's not the best situation atm even though we are a little overpowered for grouping situations.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>We lose sandstorm what we we have offer in groups? That would be taking 1 of the better spells we have and we don't have much imo i rather wardens be left alone if your going go down that road! at least now were useful in groups to a point. Templars are better solo healing then wardens, and have alot more useful tools and buff's. On raids we do same amount of healing so how some of u can clam we heal alot more numbers just don't add up but when soloing i do think that it is little more of a player then char.I have yet try to solo heal in hof since are mt want to have templar in the group for hp buff's and few other spells they bring to table.I will say this last time we were in their i let templar do all the healing i was just a back up healer and imo think templar can solo hof with no problems.I know this a shaman in are guild put up wards he never die right off the bat, and if he does i think u need find new tank!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:02 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

(If you look at the dps tiers from the combat update we are in the same tier as furies)we do not come close in dps with a fury in 1 hit they can dp up to 4k damage i have no spells close to that number.(which is also why I don't agree with removing the duststorm line since it is very useful to most of us).i agree here but if they did want take that for raid tool then give back are big direct heal and fast heal 80% direct and 20% hot or 90/10.Anyone that says to you that warden heals are crap is just plain wrong.I think there is only 1 person on this board who says this (and we all know who)I'm not the only 1 but i am the one says it all the time mybe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and my problem is in are big direct heal and are fast direct heal we are the only class that has 1/2 the heal is in a specialty part not full direct and fast heal as it should be!(Every class has an offensive, no matter how small it is. Once you understand this, then I think everyone here will be better off.Oh and forgot to add, you stated again that we are out healed... have you read anything anyone has posted? We are not out healed in any way. WE out heal most.)We do not out heal most sry shaman's work off ward so unless u can factor in the ward part thier no way u can say we out heal them.We do not out heal templar's.FURY no ideal on them but i say we would be close.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:19 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:Cleric and Shamen specialist heals are designed specifically to take the initial damage from a raid mob, as a warden on a raid I actually keep DI on the tank during the first 10% of a mob until all the debuffs are in.<p><font color="#ffff00">Well we have a 20s and a 36s DI.  Problem with the DI is after it procs it's over so if tank is hit again he is dead.  It happens all the time.  So what happens if you wipe quick on a bad pull and your DIs are down for a while?  Do you sit and wait for them to repop?</font>Warden direct heals are like getting a truck moving.  After about 10 seconds they overtake all other classes in healing power and burn up faster healing for 15% more in 60 seconds.  Trust me I have spent a while on this.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Well our role is really to heal after reactives and wards are down.  But please it's not like we haven't spent our time healing since it's really all we can do on a raid.  The issue isn't that we aren't good healers it's that we're easier to replace than the shaman/cleric on a raid.  That's a balance issue and goes to our having virtually no raid utility outside of healing.</font></p><p>Wardens are NOT vital to the initial damage taken by a tank, but we do have two DI's for the huge spikes that even the shammy and clerics cannot handle.  Face it, we are not designed to do what clerics and shamen do.  We get more than enough compensation for this from our direct healing range.Anyone that says to you that warden heals are crap is just plain wrong.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I think there is only 1 person on this board who says this (and we all know who).  Every healer gets 1 DI and the recasts on ours are too long to be adequate for the shortcomings of the DI spells - and since you keep bringing up how good TW is, what other lvl 52 marquee spells other healer class get do you prefer TW over?  And while I agree that our DHs are good, I don't think they are so vastly superior to make up for our disadvantages relative to other priest classes.  </font></p><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>It will never cease to amaze me how defending our direct heals and providing examples of a use of our marquee spells (which is weak but apparent) somehow makes me into some kind of blind man who is not aware of the problems with our marquee spells.  For goodness sake all i am doing is trying to provide some balance and for thiese assumptions reading between the lines is all you can provide?See this post for what it is.. a positive step to look at a warden can do - but of course.. the glass is not half full it is half empty isnt it.With regard to this line</span><span><font color="#ffff00">And while I agree that our DHs are good, I don't think they are so vastly superior to make up for our disadvantages relative to other priest classes</font></span><span>Actually we can out heal every class significantly with our direct heals</span><span></span></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:46 PM</span></p>

[Barand]

<span>quote : Actually we can out heal every class significantly with our direct heals :I would like to see a real parse in a raid with the 3 archetype in MT group that will show how much each archetype has heal the MT and only him and that would include ward as heal.At the moment we out parse other healer because of the fast big group heal, and shaman cant claim anything since ward never appear in parse.</span><div></div>Theoritically we can out heal other priest, but in practice the hot always act as the last heal taken into account if necessary. It would also be interesting to see how much heal go to waste with warden :Both hot part of our direct heal generally fall when our MT is full healthThe hot fall a lot of time when MT is full healthsame for group regen and group directSame for tree

[Touryn]

Deleting my posts in this thread.  They were patronizing, rude, and off-topic.  More than that, I'm hiding my shame.<p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:33 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Ironically here is precisely where i feel being realistic is being lost.  You cannot in one breath press the point home that a mystic can heal a group the same whilst having the utility whilst in another post accepting that wardens are strong group solo healers with single group utility.The gripe i see from most people is that they feel the do not add much utility to a raid and I do accept that.  I have said that earlier!  Swashbucks, monks, dirges, they all add utility to a raid and some classes are naturally going to be less gifted than others.  You cant be all things and I for one am NOT willing to trade my spectacular healing for a debuff or some fluffy utility crap which is what we will get for goodness sake just look at the marquee spells we have.It is ironic that healing power seems unimportant to some in a heal class, and utility is somewhat the holy grail.  You said it youself, stronger healers can increase the DPS of a raid by making space.  I for one would say thats a good thing.Now enough criticism of things I am not even saying, just because something is left out doesnt mean it isnt true or that I am somewhat unaware of it, you want to bulid a post constructive to the needs of a warden dont fill it with crap about how un-MT group you feel.  I do not need re-educating on stuff I have been reading on these boards since beta.Stick some hard evidence of where you feel we are failing down.  Statistics, numbers, stuff the devs cant just ignore as a bunch of whiners.   Im happy, sure we have a few problems, but those issues have already been raised about a thousand times by now.  Enough spaming the same old stuff over and over as if we all dont know it by now.Edit again.. toned down a lot because I don't want you to feel under pressure to respondEdit: This is not directed to those actually working on suggestions, this is as always directed at those who just constantly whine about how broke we are... it does my head in<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:08 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:20 PM</span></p>

[Touryn]

Deleting my posts in this thread.  They were patronizing, rude, and off-topic.  More than that, I'm hiding my shame.<p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:34 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>which you didenough educating me, its patronising which i am sure is not your intention - not reading posts in sequence to their context can lead to trollingWE AGREE!!!!If you look up this all started with me responding to SLAYER!! on direct healsEdited again for goodness sake to try and tone down how frustrating this all is, why should I have to explain myself to you?<p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:25 PM</span></p><p>Edit - in being helpful here is my original post to slayer who was keen to stress how unimportant our heals were</p><hr width="100%" size="2">Cleric and Shamen specialist heals are designed specifically to take the initial damage from a raid mob, as a warden on a raid I actually keep DI on the tank during the first 10% of a mob until all the debuffs are in.Warden direct heals are like getting a truck moving.  After about 10 seconds they overtake all other classes in healing power and burn up faster healing for 15% more in 60 seconds.  Trust me I have spent a while on this.Wardens are NOT vital to the initial damage taken by a tank, but we do have two DI's for the huge spikes that even the shammy and clerics cannot handle.  Face it, we are not designed to do what clerics and shamen do.  We get more than enough compensation for this from our direct healing range.Anyone that says to you that warden heals are crap is just plain wrong<hr width="100%" size="2">This post has been systematically pulled apart for not saying that Wardens are weak in other areas - now wheres the apology<p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:32 PM</span></p>

[Touryn]

<div></div><div></div><div><span>Okay, I feel a little foolish now.  I was using the response to proxy some stuff from that other infamous thread (so some context probably didn't make sense, in a way seriously blunting any point I was trying to make to the world).  I hereby announce my surrender so we can move on.  I do agree it's important to move on from talking about DHs.  Any problem with the Warden class does not revolve around them.Edit:  Where's the delete button?  I'm sure deleting this post and the last couple of mine would probably do much to help the world.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Touryn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:34 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

you are doing a fantastic job on the other post man, ditch this one it goes nowhere<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:you are doing a fantastic job on the other post man, ditch this one it goes nowhere<div></div><hr></blockquote>Why cuase i have a point of view and i have push hard on few things. In doing that i have mad few people upset. Warden are not bad healer's in fact i think we are good, but we have alot short coming's that other healer's just don't have to deal with. I not going post in the other thread even that i have seen few thing said that i really did not like. Touryn has done great job i will not post in he's thread.ADD NOTE: RAPPY just tell me why we be so overpowering if we had a true direct heal? I really think if u had proof u be all over this post.

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>We would be overpowering with a 100% direct heal because it would be a lot more healing in one shot than any other class does and for a much better power to heal ratio. And incidentally that is the EXACT reason we lost the large direct heals in the first place.. idk if you remember or were even around back then but before lu13, all the hlrs had basically the SAME direct heal with some type of secondary effect that was specific to each subclass. The heals were: x power for every hlr, 2s cast time, 4s recast time (small heal) and 3s cast time, 9s recast time (large heal), was the exact same size and had some type of effect.. for templars it was a cure, for furies a buff, but for us.. we got a regen attached. Now, it wasn't a very big regen, it wasn't even all that great of a regen (I believe 5s per tick and a duration longer than the recast of the heal so it was overwritten if the warden recast it immediately and it wasn't even a different regen for each direct heal but rather the exact same regen attached to each heal so if you cast small heal then big heal, big heal's regen overwrote small heal's regen and vice versa) BUT the advantage: the regen did 1 larger tick followed by however many smaller ticks (4 I think it was); that larger tick happened simultaneous to the direct heal, so that meant in essence that we had THE largest heals of all the healers, but what was our disadvantage to it? nothing; nothing at all. Both the large and the small direct heals were like this. both cost the exact same amount of power for all healers. both had the exact same cast and recast times yet we had no disadvantage to ours.. in fact our only disadvantage was the fact that regens were disgustingly weak back then.</p><p>To illustrate just how overpowered our direct healing was and why it was made to be the way ti is now: pre-lu13, I could heal only 50 points less with my SMALL heal (that was on a 2s cast, 4s recast) than any other healer could with their LARGE heal (large heals were 3s cast and 9s recast except for shammys who had 1s cast and something like 13s recast with a slightly larger heal than clrs/furies.. slightly larger meaning about 50 points larger). Now the numbers on our heals: something like 1200 at ad3 for the large one while the other healers got only 955 or in the case of shammys (might actually have only been defilers, I forget for sure if mystics were the same as defilers or not), 1003; that means our small heal was doing about 900... for the same cast time.. and the same recast time... and the same power cost as every other healer...</p><p>900 every 6s versus 955 every 12s.. you know that that actually means it was 1800 for us versus only 955 for everyone else? Think about that and tell me how fair it was</p><p>Now: post-lu13</p><p>We now have heals that are pretty much the same overall size as the old ones (and I mean the t5 heals now are roughly about the same size as they were pre-lu13), BUT the only difference now is that we have an actual drawback to it and that's having it split between a direct heal and a regen, and that is what's called balance.  Our balance to the spike damage issue is that we have faster cast times than clrs/shammys.</p><p>If you want the heals to be full-on direct heals, you're asking for us to lose our efficiency, our fast casting, and our decent recasts.. if our heals were just morphed from direct + regen to just direct with their current numbers, we would end up with longer recasts than templars, longer cast times than templars, and much larger power costs than templars to keep it balanced because it will NEVER return to the way it was where we were just demolishing other healers in the direct healing department in every single respect.</p>

[Rappy]

I do have proof and I have been asked not to post it because it is <u>so</u> proving, there was a unanimous agreement by the people in the guk.warden channel when i presented my findings there.<div></div>

[Durst]

<div></div><div>I liked the game prior to LU 13.  I made my warden prior to LU 13 and a lot of stuff has changed.  Prior to LU 13 there where 3 healing types, plate, chain, and leather and they DID NOT have equal healing capablitys.  Furys gave up some defence and healing capablitys for extra dps, wardens gave up defence (since they were leather) for more healing.  Shammy class was just broken do to wards but they where ment to be the inbetween with ok healing and buff and debuffs.  Clerics where the heavy plate tank with some nice HP buffs with little utility and strong to normal heals.</div><div> </div><div>If u remember around LU 13 they played with advoidance and all those stats ie base, block, parry. Well LU 13 was meant to make all of the type classes equal i.e. Monk can tank as well as a guardian but do it in a different way by dodgeing and advoiding attacks.  Also all healers were ment to heal equally as well but this really seems to screw up the hole system and what the game was ment to be IMO.  I picked a warden over a fury because that class could heal better than a fury at that time and i wanted to be a "Pure healer" not a dps healer mix.  Class balance has never been the same since that update for better or worse for some classes.  The warden class really got hit hard because we where never ment to be a dps class like the fury we were ment to be a better healer.  Now that supposidly all healers could heal equally they had distinquish each class with unique spells i.e ancient teaching spells.  Now almost every warden would say this is where we got the shaft.  The only good thing was the dog which helped are dps greatly but again DPS is not what I wanted from my druid when i made him.  The tree was great idea to add to are healing but it turned out to be just annoying and did not scale and had like 2 HP.   Are 52 spell TW has been a joke and adds nothing to are class.</div><div> </div><div>The game since LU 13 has gone down IMO.  Charater progression was hit very hard but 50-60 i looked foward to get my AT spells at 52,55,and 58.  From 60-70 1 new spell and AA lines to progress through did not inpress me at all.  I like the AA system but the 1 new spell from 60-70 thats not a buff, atttack, or heal, was very disappointing and made them lvls very lame.</div><div> </div><div>No real point in this post just all that say if your so unhappy with your class why dont roll a new toon kinda makes me mad because prior to LU 13 a warden was my class but SOE has change it into a class im not as happy with.  I wont stop playing my warden hes a fine healer but of course were all equal healers now so whats makes any class better than another a few spells here and there.  I just wanted a "Pure healer" but now i feel like a "cross breed", "Trick of all traits master of none" class that has no direction.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your time and sorry for the spelling and grammar errors im sure there are a few.</div><p>Message Edited by Durst11 on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:22 AM</span></p>

[Rappy]

If anyone did want the 'pure healing' information please PM me with your home email and i'll send you the XLS files - I am going to be doing another study on how the pure healing AA will effect our healing compared to the other classes.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>You cant be all things and I for one am NOT willing to trade my spectacular healing for a debuff or some fluffy utility crap which is what we will get for goodness sake just look at the marquee spells we have.<font color="#ffff00">Like I said above that's one of our problems.  SoE does not balance healing with utility.  Our healing is supposed to be balanced with the other healer classes just as utility is supposed to be balanced within itself.  Our utility is damage which isn't that useful on a raid.  So any raid utility we have is going to come from our marquee spells.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The dogs were nice when they could interrupt and debuff.  The tree would be much more useful if it survived AEs and TW well we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Tranquility needs a lower cast time to be that useul and SoE needs to devise a way of allowing us to see effects on our targets without us needing to see the 30 other buffs.  Other than that I'm not sure what else they could change without screwing up the non-raiding warden who has it pretty good right now.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><p>We would be overpowering with a 100% direct heal because it would be a lot more healing in one shot than any other class does and for a much better power to heal ratio. And incidentally that is the EXACT reason we lost the large direct heals in the first place.. idk if you remember or were even around back then but before lu13, all the hlrs had basically the SAME direct heal with some type of secondary effect that was specific to each subclass. The heals were: x power for every hlr, 2s cast time, 4s recast time (small heal) and 3s cast time, 9s recast time (large heal), was the exact same size and had some type of effect.. for templars it was a cure, for furies a buff, but for us.. we got a regen attached. Now, it wasn't a very big regen, it wasn't even all that great of a regen (I believe 5s per tick and a duration longer than the recast of the heal so it was overwritten if the warden recast it immediately and it wasn't even a different regen for each direct heal but rather the exact same regen attached to each heal so if you cast small heal then big heal, big heal's regen overwrote small heal's regen and vice versa) BUT the advantage: the regen did 1 larger tick followed by however many smaller ticks (4 I think it was); that larger tick happened simultaneous to the direct heal, so that meant in essence that we had THE largest heals of all the healers, but what was our disadvantage to it? nothing; nothing at all. Both the large and the small direct heals were like this. both cost the exact same amount of power for all healers. both had the exact same cast and recast times yet we had no disadvantage to ours.. in fact our only disadvantage was the fact that regens were disgustingly weak back then.</p><p>To illustrate just how overpowered our direct healing was and why it was made to be the way ti is now: pre-lu13, I could heal only 50 points less with my SMALL heal (that was on a 2s cast, 4s recast) than any other healer could with their LARGE heal (large heals were 3s cast and 9s recast except for shammys who had 1s cast and something like 13s recast with a slightly larger heal than clrs/furies.. slightly larger meaning about 50 points larger). Now the numbers on our heals: something like 1200 at ad3 for the large one while the other healers got only 955 or in the case of shammys (might actually have only been defilers, I forget for sure if mystics were the same as defilers or not), 1003; that means our small heal was doing about 900... for the same cast time.. and the same recast time... and the same power cost as every other healer...</p><p>900 every 6s versus 955 every 12s.. you know that that actually means it was 1800 for us versus only 955 for everyone else? Think about that and tell me how fair it was</p><p>Now: post-lu13</p><p>We now have heals that are pretty much the same overall size as the old ones (and I mean the t5 heals now are roughly about the same size as they were pre-lu13), BUT the only difference now is that we have an actual drawback to it and that's having it split between a direct heal and a regen, and that is what's called balance. Our balance to the spike damage issue is that we have faster cast times than clrs/shammys.</p><p>If you want the heals to be full-on direct heals, you're asking for us to lose our efficiency, our fast casting, and our decent recasts.. if our heals were just morphed from direct + regen to just direct with their current numbers, we would end up with longer recasts than templars, longer cast times than templars, and much larger power costs than templars to keep it balanced because it will NEVER return to the way it was where we were just demolishing other healers in the direct healing department in every single respect.</p><hr></blockquote>.Never said it should be 100% direct heal only said 50/50 was to unreasonable, 80/20 was more reasonable or 90/10.add note i add 350 tick in compareing fury's and warden's, as in regen are tick's are about same.FuryL = h 932-1140, c 1,5s, rc 8.5s, cost: p 203If their regen tick hit after direct heal does u can say around 1490 max health which as u can see less power cast and and faster recasting, and all most 1500 heatlhS = h 525 - 642, c 1s, rc 5s, cost: p 117max heatlh if regen tick hit's around 1kWardenL = h 656-798 and 84-103 ps for 10s, c 1.5s, rc 10s, cost: p 254Max heal if regen tick hits 1160S = h 349-482 and 60-80 ps for 6s, c1s, rc 5s, cost: p 146Max health if regen tick hit's 840 max health.TemplarL = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 308S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 170InquisitorL = h 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 10s, p 254S = h 657-803, c 2s, rc 5s, p 146DefilerL = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 254 hp 254S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 146 hp 246MysticL = 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 8s, cost: p 254S = 657-803, c 2s, rc 4s, cost p 146(I did use rappy chart) as u can clearly see we are at a disadvantage in this 1 part of are direct heal's and what we get make's up for it? faster casting 1.5 sec's but that only over non druid classes and fury recasting time is better. If u factor in casting time TO GET regen up and be able count that tick total casting time for both spell's are 3.5 sec's.U say we have advantage in spike damage over clrs, shammys in are casting time but are recasting time stay's the same so not matter what u are only going get the direct heal in same amount of that time frame, beside imo they have advantage in wards and reactor's when spike damage is coming in they have health then and their, which are stays the same in ticks.Beside are marquee spells being weaker then all other healing classes! I still say we have a big problem in handling spike damage that no other healer has at this time, and adding back more health to are direct heal would help with this problem in the right direction.Last thought still has not change in fact it's more improved in with regards getting are direct heal more at reasonable 80/20, 90/10 .<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:36 PM</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:20 AM</span></p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I have allways agreed to making HoT part of our DHs smaller. From a flawor point of view I am fine with it beeing there, but I can not see any reson why it should be so large.</p><p>But even if you think our Heals are uber consider this. Last time I checked Hot part of our DHs did not stack. We know this and SOE knows this but are not doing anything. If HoT part was made smaller in favor of DH part the loss in healing when having 2 wardens on raid would be smaller. Why should we loose so much in this way when noone else does?</p><p>PS. Hope I am rigth about the non stacking of HoTs on DHs, been a while since I last checked :smileywink:</p>

[Unmask]

<div>The HoT components of all our heals stack with each other.  You might be thinking back to pre LU13 days when they didn't.  Or maybe you're thinking of fury HoTs not stacking with ours.</div>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div>The HoT components of all our heals stack with each other. You might be thinking back to pre LU13 days when they didn't. Or maybe you're thinking of fury HoTs not stacking with ours.</div><hr></blockquote>Yes unmasked is 100% right i just tested it they both do stack, when i mean both hot's that in verdant bliss and sylvan streams hot's did stack.I like to say i just don't see advantage at having are direct heal at 50/50 but i do see disadvantage. In since that when u need large amount of health at 1 time we don't have that and not only in are direct heal's but in any of are healing spells,But that what are large direct heal is for to have large amount heal at 1 time not over 10 sec's.Imo this is just one of the few advantage all other healer's have over us.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:10 PM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Formangenavn wrote:<div></div><p>I have allways agreed to making HoT part of our DHs smaller. From a flawor point of view I am fine with it beeing there, but I can not see any reson why it should be so large.</p><p>But even if you think our Heals are uber consider this. Last time I checked Hot part of our DHs did not stack. We know this and SOE knows this but are not doing anything. If HoT part was made smaller in favor of DH part the loss in healing when having 2 wardens on raid would be smaller. Why should we loose so much in this way when noone else does?</p><p>PS. Hope I am rigth about the non stacking of HoTs on DHs, been a while since I last checked :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>Just tested the hot stacking of the heals with my guild leader; he made a lvl 1 warden and I made a lvl 1 warden. We went out and I pulled 2 sand tortoises to beat on me and he healed me then I healed me and logs showed both the heals ticking on me at once. So yes the heals stack as they should and having a second warden on a raid has no healing disdvantage other than loss of specialty heal.</p><p>(1144280566)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:46 2006] Regen appeals to nature for restorative assistance.(1144280566)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:46 2006] You draw upon restorative natural powers.(1144280566)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:46 2006] <font color="#00cc00">YOUR Minor Bloom heals YOURSELF for 8 hit points.</font>(1144280566)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:46 2006] Puel focuses Nature's Caress upon you.(1144280567)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:47 2006] <font color="#006600">Regen's Minor Bloom heals YOU for 8 hit points.</font>(1144280567)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:47 2006] Puel focuses Nature's Caress upon you.(1144280567)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:47 2006] <font color="#00cc00">YOUR Minor Bloom heals YOURSELF for 1 hit point.</font>(1144280567)[Wed Apr 05 19:42:47 2006] a small sand tortoise hits YOU for 1 point of crushing damage.(114428056<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Apr 05 19:42:48 2006] <font color="#006600">Regen's Minor Bloom heals YOU for 1 hit point.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 PM</span></p><p><span class="time_text">I'd post a longer log but unfortunately, at these lvls it doesn't take a whole lot to heal someone to full hp and that's about as much as it took heh</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:59 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Imo, don't touch our heals.  They're fine.</p><p>I believe people focus too much on the upfront part of the heal and not enough on the total.  Here's the total for myself vs a Mystic.</p><p>Sylvan Streams m1 - 1 sec to cast.  recast 5 secs.  Heals for 450 - 550 instantly and then 75-92 per sec for 6 secs.</p><p>Defiler Heals - Putrid Balm m1 - 2 secs to cast.  recast 6 secs.  Heals for 866-1058.</p><p>Now if you add up all the ticks from our heal it equals 900 - 1102.  So in essence we can cast our heal faster (key here) and recast it faster.  The ticks end as soon as you've finished casting your next one. </p><p>Now Defilers aren't known for their direct heals so lets take a look at templars.</p><p>Grand Amelioration m1 - 2 secs to cast.  recast 6 secs.  Heals for 866-1058. </p><p>Oh, look at that.... it's the same.  So if the tank takes a hit for 3k, our heal will go off faster and heal for more...</p><p>Hum, lets take a look at the direct healing non-druid class then... Inquisators.</p><p>Devoted Ministration m1 - 2 secs to cast.  recast 5 secs.  Heals for 751-917.</p><p>Since for direct healing damage spikes the Inquisator seems to be the best competition for us lets look at the big heals too:</p><p>Warden - Verdant Bliss m1 - 1.5 secs to cast.  10 secs recast.  Heals for 746-912 and 96-117 per sec for 10 secs</p><p>Inquisator - Fanatical Healing m1 - 3 secs to cast.  8 secs recast.  Heals for 1332-1628.</p><p>Wow, interesting .... inquisators can pop off a heal as often as we can just can't have it go off as soon.  They're still casting whie ours goes off and then has 1 sec to tick.  So lets look at a 7k hit from both of us then.</p><p>Hit for 7k.</p><p>                             Warden heals                                                Inquisator heals</p><p>1 sec later             Heals for 450-550 - casts VB                       Still casting</p><p>2 secs later           Ticks 75-92 = 525-642                               Heals for 751-917  - starts casting next heal</p><p>3 secs later           VB hits 746-912 + tick = 1346-1646             Still casting</p><p>4 secs later           2 ticks 171-209= 1517-1855                         Still casting</p><p>5 secs later            2 ticks =1688-2064                                  5.5 secs really (recovery time) Heal hits 1332-1628 = 2083-2545</p><p>6 secs later            2 ticks = 1859-2273 - casts SS                   Waiting</p><p>7 secs later            Tick VB 96-117 + 450-550 = 2405-2940      Casts devoted ministration</p><p>See the point I'm trying to make is we actually heal more hps up front and overall.  I don't see a big lag in the amount we heal at all from the medium up front amount because of the quick casting times, plus we end up healing MORE overall then an inquisator.  I think our problems isn't heals at all.. that's missing the point.  Spike damage, or big hits, is a problem because we don't buff hps or have strong buffs to go with our healing power.  You see this whole excercise is a mute point and not realistic.. because if the tank gets hit for 7k with a warden solo healing he's dead, he just got 1 shotted.  With an inquisator solo healing his reactives soaked up 900 where he buffs tank's hps to 8k so the tank is left with 2k hps allowing him to heal.</p><p>Our buffs are our problems.... take a look above and see.</p><p>Mayi - LoC</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:36 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

sry no text<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:03 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Maybe one difinitive chart would be good =p.  It's hard to read yours but you double counted the small heal for the inquisators.  You added an extra 803 or whatever it is.  From your chart we just outhealed the Inquisator.

[slayerwarrior]

no i fix it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but it's very late and i did have better chart but for some reason as u said it went all togather :/.add note: I will say this in 5 sec we out heal no one and that were we need it the most:/ when dealing with spike damage.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:06 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:06 AM</span></p>

[Vaylan77]

<div></div><p>you don't consider that you have three solo types of heals as a warden + two group types. so instead of waiting for the spell to load again you can cast three solo heal spells in a row at a tank which is hit for huge damage.</p><p>i always find it funny when people remove their spells from their hotbars because a "better" spell was given to them not considering that even the lower spells will help because they are from a different heal section (you have two different hand symbols and the leaf, so you can cast a spell from every section in a row and if that is not enough use the group versions, too))</p>

[slayerwarrior]

um this was compareing single target direct heal's let's keep to that please. Unless u want start adding in reactor what they can do.I have added in are regen in another post please read that one.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:14 AM</span></p>

[Vaylan77]

<div></div><p>you compare single heals but not the power a warden, defiler, inquisitor... has at whole. you are saying this special heal is best for the warden so he is the winner. in a combat you won't cast ONE single healing spell, wait for recast and cast again so the whole comparison is only but theoretical. so to come back to the issue "is the warden broke or not" you have to compare a warden with his sets of healing spells to another healer with his set of healing spells and then compare both.</p><p>i see more inquis on the servers than wardens. the figures i see above say, a warden heals much better than an inqui. so where's the deal?</p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I have a definative chart, I was asked not to post this but since there are a number interested and it's going to be done anyway soon, here it is (bear in mind I have the full 60 seconds of this but for simplicity I have included only the first 15 seconds.)<!-- [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ocumentProperties> <o:Template>Normal</o:Template> <o:LastAuthor>Gareth Sherwood</o:LastAuthor> <o:Revision>3</o:Revision> <o:TotalTime>45</o:TotalTime> <o:Created>2006-04-06T10:42:00Z</o:Created> <o:LastSaved>2006-04-06T10:44:00Z</o:LastSaved> <o<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ages>1</o<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ages> <o:Words>154</o:Words> <o:Characters>883</o:Characters> <o:Company> </o:Company> <o:Lines>7</o:Lines> <o<img 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alt="SMILEY" />ontGrowAutofit> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif] --><!-- [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif] --><!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:72.0pt 57.6pt 72.0pt 57.6pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --><!-- [if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif] --><div><p><span>               W       F        T        I         D       M    </span></p><p>0<span>               </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0<span>        </span>0</p><p>0.5<span>            </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0        0</p><p>1<span>               </span>0       <span></span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>1.5<span>       <font color="#ffff00"> </font></span><font color="#ffff00">727</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1036</font><span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2<span>           </span>727<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2.5<span>        </span>821<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>3<span>       <font color="#ccff99"> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></font></span><font color="#66ff00">1259</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">1620</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font></p><p>3.5<span>      </span>1353<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296 ---- Keeping pace at 3.5 seconds, 0.5 seconds after the cleric and shamen classes have healed</p><p>4<span>         </span>1426<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296</p><p>4.5<span>      </span>1520<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296</p><p>5<span>         </span>1593<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296</p><p>5.5<span>      </span>1687<span>  </span>1620<span> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></span><font color="#66ff00">2396</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">2026</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">2396</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">2026</font><font color="#66ff00"> </font> ----- Behind at 5.5 seconds but only by around 350, note by this stage we would have landed our regen (not included)</p><p>6<span>         </span>1760<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>6.5<span>      </span>1854<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>7<span>         </span>1927<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>7.5<span>      </span>2021<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>8<span>         </span>2094<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026  ----- If done in sequence reactives and wards would be landing here.</p><p>8.5<span>      </span>2188<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>9<span>        <font color="#66ff00"> </font></span><font color="#66ff00">2626</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">2204</font><span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026  ----- Ahead at 9 seconds and no looking back</p><p>9.5<span>      </span>2720<span>  </span>2204<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>10<span>       </span>2793<span>  </span>2204<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>10.5<span>    </span>2887<span>  </span>2204<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>11<span>       </span>2960<span>  </span>2204<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026</p><p>11.5<span>    </span>3054<span>  </span><font color="#ffff00">3240</font><span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span><font color="#66ff00">2756</font></p><p>12<span>       </span>3127<span>  </span>3240<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2026<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2756</p><p>12.5<span>    </span>3127<span>  </span>3240<span>  </span>2396<span> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></span><font color="#66ff00">2756</font><span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2756</p><p>13<span>       </span><font color="#ffff00">3927</font><span>  </span>3240<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2756<span>  </span>2396<span>  </span>2756</p><p>13.5<span>    </span>3927<span>  </span>3240<span> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></span><font color="#66ff00">3238</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span>2756<span> <font color="#ffff00"> </font></span><font color="#66ff00">3238</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span>2756</p><p>14<span>       </span>4094<span>  </span>3240<span>  </span>3238<span>  </span>2756<span>  </span>3238<span>  </span>2756</p><p>14.5<span>    </span>4094<span>  </span>3240<span>  </span>3238<span>  </span>2756<span>  </span>3238<span>  </span>2756</p><p>15<span>     <font color="#66ff00"> </font><font color="#66ff00"></font></span><font color="#66ff00">4626</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">3824</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span>3238<span>  </span>2756<span>  </span>3238<span>  </span><font color="#ffff00">4052</font></p><p><span>            </span></p><p><span>                      W          F           T           I           D          M</span></p><p>Total Heal<span>   </span>17040<span>   </span>12056<span>   </span>12110<span>   </span>12612<span>   </span>12110<span>   </span>13780</p><p>Power<span>           </span>2984<span>     </span>2388<span>     </span>2252<span>     </span>2438<span>     </span>2038<span>     </span>2730</p><p>EDIT - ok thats the best i can do with the formating - loads of edits to try and make this as easy to read as possible.</p><p>Late Edit - added colour to show when a heal lands <font color="#ffff00">Large heal = yellow</font>, <font color="#66ff00">small heal = green</font></p></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:53 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:54 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:58 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:57 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:09 AM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:warden adept31 sec later 4822 sec 80 hot<font color="#ffff00">2.5 sec later 798 totall 1360</font>3 sec later 183 hot4 sec later 183 hot5 sec later 183 hot 19146 sec later 183 hot<font color="#33ccff">7 sec later 482 + 103 totall 2677</font>8 sec later 183 totall 2860inquisitor adept31 sec later2 sec later 8033 sec later casting4 sec later casting<font color="#ffff00">5 sec later 1425 totall 2228</font>6 sec later7 sec later casting<font color="#66ff00">8sec later 803 totall 3031</font>inquisitor adept31 sec later2 sec later3 sec later 14254 sec last casting<font color="#ffff00">5 sec later 803 totall 2228</font>Warden adept3L = h 656-798 and 84-103 ps for 10s, c 1.5s, rc 10s, cost: p 254S = h 349-482 and 60-80 ps for 6s, c1s, rc 5s, cost: p 146Inquisitor adept3L = h 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 10s, p 254S = h 657-803, c 2s, rc 5s, p 146( did this off of rappy chart)<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Your model is wrong where labeled.</span><ul><li><font color="#ffff00">In yellow</font> is indicated where you have not included the recovery time after a spell cast and hence brought forward a heal by 0.5 seconds when in practice it would land later</li><li><font color="#66ff00">In green</font> is where you have failed to take into account adequate recast time on the inquisitor heal which at best would be 7 seconds appart from each other if spammed</li></ul>I am pleased with your model here however<ul><li><font color="#66ccff">In blue</font> you have successfully noted that in recasting the repopped Small heal for a warden we loose the last tic of regen on the previous heal</li></ul></div><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:03 AM</span></p>

[Barand]

Number does not mean everything, its great information, but just counting direct heal would be like comparing Wizard and Conjuror dps without counting pet.And this is only theoritical, in practice lots of our hot part are lost due to the tank being full health (therefore wasting our mana and the one of the priest who completed our heal), buff and debuff count a lot too.What i can take from these number is that warden may be the best healer outside MT team and since we dont provide big buff our place may be here.<div></div>

[Rappy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Iranos wrote:Number does not mean everything, its great information, but just counting direct heal would be like comparing Wizard and Conjuror dps without counting pet.And this is only theoritical, in practice lots of our hot part are lost due to the tank being full health (therefore wasting our mana and the one of the priest who completed our heal), buff and debuff count a lot too.What i can take from these number is that warden may be the best healer outside MT team and since we dont provide big buff our place may be here.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well aware this is abstract, it was merely there as information.  The practicalities of loosing some regen if the tank gets back to full health is the reason i think wardens have not been nerfed over this.</span></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shadus wrote:We're not broken in the broad sense of the word, we have some issues solo healing some high end zones (its not impossible in most cases just very hard) because we don't handle the burst dps well. <div></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not really sure that *any* healer class can solo heal high end zones...any other healing class that i've been in a group with can't solo heal<hr></blockquote>Yep.  I haven't soloed healed much of anything lately.  And seeing how much damage is coming out of teh mobs in places like Halls of Fate, I am not sure I want to try!Additionally, I will be publishing results soon (hopefully this weekend) on some analysis I did on the 3 types of specialty heals.  I think Druids will be quite pleased with how Regens actually fare.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>i don't think a group would even accept a solo-healer group...going back to the big combat update (CU), i think part of the purpose was to diversify the healing classes and bring specific strengths to each class...that was pretty much the end of solo-healer groups as a common occurance<hr></blockquote><b>I. </b>the only problem i have with their method of "diversity" is that they seem to have taken a "healer template" and built every healer class off of it. it's kind of insulting.for example:1) our ward - praise of the untamed / exhaltation of the untamed / etcevery other priest class (to my knowledge) also got a ward of their specialty type. clerics got one for magic/mental with the resist buff.2) our healing was broken into 3 specific lines. all priests have a heal, arch heal, and specialty line. (our specialty line STILL doesn't stack with the fury one, by the way.... aren't we different classes? is it not a different spell? ... sorry, off topic)3) group. we have a mit buff for our type, a stat buff, and a health and mitigation/resist buff.there may be more, but i haven't really dug into the other classese spell lists too much.i don't mind playing a warden. as a matter of fact, it's fun and i enjoy it. i'm not sure if we were all built on this template before the combat changes, but we are now.... and i don't like it.yes, i know this was 3 pages ago. i just started using the forum today.<span>:smileytongue:</span><b>II. </b>also wanted to point out that that i think the problem isn't people not <i>knowing </i>how to play a warden... it's that they don't <i>want </i>to play a warden.<b>III. </b>and if anyone who can do something about it (developers, web designers or whoever is responsible for this...) reads this, <b>please</b> fix this: http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionWardenmy skills are far more tailored toward elemental curing and protection than toward poison and disease.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:31 AM</span></p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Imo, don't touch our heals.  They're fine.</p><p>I believe people focus too much on the upfront part of the heal and not enough on the total.  Here's the total for myself vs a Mystic.</p><p>Sylvan Streams m1 - 1 sec to cast.  recast 5 secs.  Heals for 450 - 550 instantly and then 75-92 per sec for 6 secs.</p><p>Defiler Heals - Putrid Balm m1 - 2 secs to cast.  recast 6 secs.  Heals for 866-1058.</p><p>Now if you add up all the ticks from our heal it equals 900 - 1102.  So in essence we can cast our heal faster (key here) and recast it faster.  The ticks end as soon as you've finished casting your next one. </p><p>Now Defilers aren't known for their direct heals so lets take a look at templars.</p><p>Grand Amelioration m1 - 2 secs to cast.  recast 6 secs.  Heals for 866-1058. </p><p>Oh, look at that.... it's the same.  So if the tank takes a hit for 3k, our heal will go off faster and heal for more...</p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree that our direct heals are fine.  The problem is that looking at direct heals in isolation masks where our issue is.  Shamans have wards to absorb damage so a slower and smaller direct heal isn't a big issue for them.  The problem is that any mob that's considered "hard" does damage that comes in spikes.  A mob that does damage consistently and with no spikes is where we would excel but these few and far between.</p>

[slayerwarrior]

Thats the problem with spike damage is THE FIRST FEW SEC'C KEEPING MT ALIVE, and That were are problem is.Fury has no ward's reactor what get's them by O_o. But as i said it was late i had better chart, in the fly i had to redo will.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:04 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Still.. going back to the reason the numbers were posted.  Spike damage.  All that should be really important is the first 5 seconds max:</p><p>W       F        T        I         D       M    </p><p>0<span>               </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0<span>        </span>0</p><p>0.5<span>            </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0        0</p><p>1<span>               </span>0       <span></span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>1.5<span>       <font color="#ffff00"> </font></span><font color="#ffff00">727</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1036</font><span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2<span>           </span>727<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2.5<span>        </span>821<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>3<span>       <font color="#ccff99"> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></font></span><font color="#66ff00">1259</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">1620</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font></p><p>3.5<span>      </span>1353<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296 ---- Keeping pace at 3.5 seconds, 0.5 seconds after the cleric and shamen classes have healed</p><p>4<span>         </span>1426<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296</p><p>Now from what I can see we are actually the best at quick healing damage spikes.  Our heals go off first and fast.  This goes back to my point.  There is no 'spike damage' problem for wardens.  If anything, our speciality is spike damage.  Our problem is buffs as illustrated before.  We get no preventative healing ability like wards and reactives but once damage is taken our heals go off first for more healing.  This combined with no hp buffs and no extra defensive abilities makes damage spikes hard because once a shot of damage is taken it's more perilious for us because we have less margin of error.</p><p>Btw, templars get the arcane ward, wardens the elemental ward and mystics the nox ward.  No other classes get it.  Plus, there can only be one solo hot, reactive and ward up on the tank at once.  That's not restricted to just druids.</p>

[Crimson Dragon]

ok... you're right. i've apparently been misinformed by people. i think i owe a few bludgeonings to my informants.<span><span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span><div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><p>Still.. going back to the reason the numbers were posted.  Spike damage.  All that should be really important is the first 5 seconds max:</p><p>W       F        T        I         D       M    </p><p>0<span>               </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0<span>        </span>0</p><p>0.5<span>            </span>0<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0        0        0</p><p>1<span>               </span>0       <span></span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>1.5<span>       <font color="#ffff00"> </font></span><font color="#ffff00">727</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1036</font><span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2<span>           </span>727<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>2.5<span>        </span>821<span>  </span>1036<span>       </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0<span>        </span>0</p><p>3<span>       <font color="#ccff99"> <font color="#66ff00"> </font></font></span><font color="#66ff00">1259</font><font color="#66ff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#66ff00">1620</font><span><font color="#66ff00"> </font> </span><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1554</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">1296</font></p><p>3.5<span>      </span>1353<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296 ---- Keeping pace at 3.5 seconds, 0.5 seconds after the cleric and shamen classes have healed</p><p>4<span>         </span>1426<span>  </span>1620<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296<span>  </span>1554<span>  </span>1296</p><p>Now from what I can see we are actually the best at quick healing damage spikes.  Our heals go off first and fast.  This goes back to my point.  There is no 'spike damage' problem for wardens.  If anything, our speciality is spike damage.  Our problem is buffs as illustrated before.  We get no preventative healing ability like wards and reactives but once damage is taken our heals go off first for more healing.  This combined with no hp buffs and no extra defensive abilities makes damage spikes hard because once a shot of damage is taken it's more perilious for us because we have less margin of error.</p><p>Btw, templars get the arcane ward, wardens the elemental ward and mystics the nox ward.  No other classes get it.  Plus, there can only be one solo hot, reactive and ward up on the tank at once.  That's not restricted to just druids.</p><hr></blockquote>I macros verdant bliss and sylvan stream in timing them. I got little lost in the since average time in casting both from a macro was 3.31 seem to be time i was getting 3 out of 5 try's.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:25 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Lag?  Since our server got merged there's a ton of server lag.  Otherwise it could be you need more ram =p

[slayerwarrior]

Deiler/Templar1 sec2 sec3 sec 17094 sec5 sec5.5 962 totall 2661Mystic / Inquisitor1 sec2 sec3 sec 14254 sec5 sec5.5 803 totall 2228Fruy1 sec1.5 sec 11402 sec3 642 totall 17823 sec4 sec5 sec5.5 1782Warden1 sec1.5 sec 7982 sec2.5 sec 1033 482 totall 13823.5 sec 1034 sec 804.5 sec 1035 sec 805.5 103 totall 1794U can say what u want we might catch up down the road but we are out heal by all in 5.5 sec besides one and that the fury. I have no info on what BIFT can do, but if u could figur in the extra heal i'm sure were beat by them to.I'm sure if we got more heal in are direct heal it won't be game breaking but aleast it will be fair! As i said befor direct heal should be just that a direct not sec's later which put's us at a disadvantage in start of the fight or when spike damage is coming in and u need hp then and their.I just want to add note not at all do i think this is full problem but it is part of the problem mybe small but ever little bit help imo.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:17 PM</span></p><p></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:21 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well one thing I can tell you from looking at all the models.  For a Warden it's is clearly better to lead off with your small heal followed by your big heal if you take a damage spike.  Looks to me like it's from more given you have the exact right amount of downtime to cast Greater Chloroplast after VB hits.  Hit SS, followed by VB, Greater Chloroplast, then SS.  Almost no downtime.</p><p>Is that the problem then?   The period 5-7 seconds in where our healing is lacking given our hp buffs?  I've seen damage spikes that have killed the tank before but never never gave it any thought as to when it happened in our healing cycle.  I believe SS, VB, GC, then SS is my cycle and when it gets harry I do remember worrying about the long cast time on GC (or what seems like a long time for us).</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:01 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Well one thing I can tell you from looking at all the models.  For a Warden it's is clearly better to lead off with your small heal followed by your big heal if you take a damage spike.  Looks to me like it's from more given you have the exact right amount of downtime to cast Greater Chloroplast after VB hits.  Hit SS, followed by VB, Greater Chloroplast, then SS.  Almost no downtime.</p><p>Is that the problem then?   The period 5-7 seconds in where our healing is lacking given our hp buffs?  I've seen damage spikes that have killed the tank before but never never gave it any thought as to when it happened in our healing cycle.  I believe SS, VB, GC, then SS is my cycle and when it gets harry I do remember worrying about the long cast time on GC (or what seems like a long time for us).</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Warden1 sec1.5 sec 7982 sec2.5 sec 1033 482 totall 13823.5 sec 1034 sec 804.5 sec 1035 sec 805.5 sec 103 totall 1794WARDEN1 sec 4821.5 recovery time2 sec 803 sec 798 + 80 totall 13604 sec103+805 sec 103+805.5 sec totally 1726Scope of this text was in 5.5 sec's, and when in leaving that time frame u have start adding in reactor's, regen, and ward's.I only did this to show we are the weakest of all healer's in are direct heal's when it's need the most.Even if we get a tick in from GC that would be at 6 sec we still are lower, and fury's are right ther with us.I still like see that number's on FURY extra heal!I seen your other post about our buff's , but were should we be in healing O_o compared to other classes?<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:40 PM</span></p>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div>Slayers model uses the maximum amount for the adept 3My model uses the mean heal and as such appears lower, the reason for leading off with the large heal in my model is because to sustain for 60 seconds it minimises the heal clashes, there are none!  If you lead off with the small heal you consistently build a 0.5 second clash into the heal system which runs for the duration of the minute.  Leading off with the large heal maximises efficiency over 60 seconds.  Leading off with the small heal only maximises efficiency for the first 3 casts.Edit: With regard to the fury BiTF if you assume it lands 50% of the time on the tank at less than 50% hp it heals for 1042 for 146 power cost (nice heal).  It has a 1.5 second cast time and a 6 second recast time.  I believe it is incorrect to assume the 50% of the time landing on tank below 50% but it would be best to assume it is cast first for a fury because that is the time when a spike lands that the tank is below 50%.  It would then heal on average for 1389 at adept 3.Fury011.5 - 138922.53 - 1036 (average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100%)3.544.5 - 58455.5Total = 3009I do wish people would stop bringing up back into the fray, we should not be measuring ourselves up to the best burst healer and pointing out how unprivaledged we are.  If you look at the mystic heals then cant cast 3 heals together without running into problems with recast timers.  Wardens only have a 0.5 second issue after 60 seconds making us the most efficient and well organised heal group of them all.If you think about this simply.  Most tanks have 7k hp, 3k is hardly a dent and when it comes to burst healing even if 3k lands on the tank the back into the fray is not going to be doing a double heal.  The situation is more likely to be below.  Fury have their own problems and because BiTF is situational (situations where you can definatly land a heal on a tank below 50% hp otherwise you waste the power)Fury011.5 - 69522.53 - 1036 (average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100%)3.544.5 - 58455.5Total - 2315 for 466 powerAll these heal models mean that if you are assuming a tank is taking the kind of damage where he goes from 7k hp to less than 1k hp you need 2 healers, its that simple.  No class, not even fury can handle that kind of damage.Bear in mind also that because the non druid healing classes have such slow cast times, if you allow 1 second for lag/ reaction time, 3 second for a heal, thats 4 seconds of regular dps before you can get a direct heal on.  In that time a warden has already landed 2 heals in essence, druids alike are the best damage spike healers because they can get heals off more quickly.  Fury are definately pick of the 2 but at greater power cost.<p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:04 AM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

dupe post sry<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:31 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

FuryL = h 932-1140, c 1,5s, rc 8.5s, cost: p 203S = h 525 - 642, c 1s, rc 5s, cost: p 117WardenL = h 656-798 and 84-103 ps for 10s, c 1.5s, rc 10s, cost: p 254S = h 349-482 and 60-80 ps for 6s, c1s, rc 5s, cost: p 146TemplarL = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 308S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 170InquisitorL = h 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 10s, p 254S = h 657-803, c 2s, rc 5s, p 146DefilerL = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 254 hp 254S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 146 hp 246MysticL = 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 8s, cost: p 254S = 657-803, c 2s, rc 4s, cost p 146here again is the table of classes<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:04 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><p align="left">[average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100% 3.5]</p><p align="left"><font color="#ccff33">NO it would be stupid to assume</font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ccff33">that i meant your going get 100%</font></font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ccff33">of your heal all the </font><font color="#ccff33">time, and since</font> <font color="#ccff33">their is a chart posted in this thread showing the low, and max .</font><font color="#ccff33">It is reasonable to assume we will be out heal in this time frame</font> <font color="#ccff33">do to short comingos such low direct heal amount</font> .</font></p><p align="left">[My model uses the mean heal and as such appears lower, the reason for leading off with the large heal in my model is because to sustain for 60 seconds it minimises the heal clashes, there are none! If you lead off with the small heal you consistently build a 0.5 second clash into the heal system which runs for the duration of the minute]</p><p align="left"><font color="#ccff33">Sure if we lead off with small heal u will gain time, but that mean's</font><font color="#ccff33"> out of all the healer's even in 1.5 or in 5.5 we have the lowest amount of healing </font> <font color="#ccff33">WITH  A GREATER POWER COST</font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ccff33"> sry, but to me that unfair</font>. <font color="#ccff33">let's be fair here people why should we have to live with such small direct heal's when no other class does, and with great power cost?</font><font color="#ccff33">This is a tweak needed to are direct heal the will help (not fix) in are short coming to spike damage</font> .</font></p><p align="left">[All these heal models mean that if you are assuming a tank is taking the kind of damage where he goes from 7k hp to less than 1k hp you need 2 healers, its that simple. No class, not even fury can handle that kind of damage.]</p><p align="left"><font color="#ccff33"><font color="#ccff33">I</font> don't want cover 7k spike damage in 5.5 sec or in 1.5 sec, and no healer can.We should be able cover larger amount health then we do at this time in are direct heal's.If we get our direct heal's move up 80/20, 90/10 hot are hp buff 800 we might see a change from dev's! (WHICH AT THIS TIME WOULD BE 100% BETTER THEN WE ARE NOW!)It will be easyer to work with in the spell's we have. Imo i think it fair and have right to ask for these change's.I also assume unless we all come to 1 point of view nothing will ever change!</font></p><p align="left">[Bear in mind also that because the non druid healing classes have such slow cast times, if you allow 1 second for lag/ reaction time, 3 second for a heal, thats 4 seconds of regular dps before you can get a direct heal on. In that time a warden has already landed 2 heals in essence, druids alike are the best damage spike healers because they can get heals off more quickly. Fury are definately pick of the 2 but at greater power cost.]</p><p align="left"><font color="#ccff33">Bare in mind it's also taking 2 heals cover other classes large heal's AT A HIGHER POWER COST, and it still lower then any other healer in same amount of time frame.Also i like to add fury power cost of their large heal p 203 now small heal power cost p 117. Now wardens power cost larger heal p 254 same as all other healing classes besides fury and templar having the highest at 308. Now are power cost of small heal 146 same as all other classes besides fury and templar but the templar has the highest p170. (STILL NO ADVANTAGE BUT ONLY DISAVANTAGE)</font></p><p align="left"><font color="#ccff33">Even if u don't agree with me atleast can we all come to one point of view on something? We all know spike damage and are buff's is a problem but in order get something fix we all need to agree at some point.</font></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:12 PM</span></p>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><p>[I do wish people would stop bringing up back into the fray, we should not be measuring ourselves up to the best burst healer and pointing out how unprivaledged we are. If you look at the mystic heals then cant cast 3 heals together without running into problems with recast timers. Wardens only have a 0.5 second issue after 60 seconds making us the most efficient and well organised heal group of them all.]</p><p><font color="#ccff33">Sry but the fury got us here to! (only reason i did post this her was fact their so much info in my other post. i'm starting wonder about rappy, and everthing in he post just not true.) Since doing this text i have also seen we use most power, and getting least amount of health. That not fair at all why should we have the highest power cost with such lower dierct heal's combined? </font></p><p><font color="#ccff33">add note: Funny templar's got alot bigger  direct heal's, and are wanting 25% shorter casting timer's. Here i try ask for 30% increase in are direct heal's! (just little funny to me lol)</font></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:10 PM</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:29 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:31 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>So in essence the 'spike damage problem' for wardens looks to be from the tank dropping at the 5-7 sec mark for wardens?  Btw, what does everyone think of changing the avoidance bonus from sandstorm to a mitigation boost instead?  Say maybe 400 mitigation to group?

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div>So in essence the 'spike damage problem' for wardens looks to be from the tank dropping at the 5-7 sec mark for wardens?  Btw, what does everyone think of changing the avoidance bonus from sandstorm to a mitigation boost instead?  Say maybe 400 mitigation to group?<hr><p><font color="#ccff33">Their's alot people think sandstorm is all ready nice spell, and  having anything change on it will more likely get other healing classes in a up roar . If your going try get a spell change why not just ask them   to put Tunare's Watch  in recycle bin hit empty, try again?  (i like that saying, but don't remeber who used it in a post)</font></p><p><font color="#ccff33">Tunare's Watch as a </font><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ccff33">ancient spell</font></font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ccff33">should be a nice spell, and not weak useless spell as it is! IMO this should be ON HIGH </font><font color="#ffcc00"><strong>Priority<font color="#ccff33">!  </font></strong></font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#ccff33"><strong>They should take this spell make it in to 500+ mitigation single target buff with 700 + to heat and cold mitigation, and have power cost 350 , 3 min recast timer, 2 sec casting time , and last for 36's root's caster .  <font color="#ccff66">That more of a ancient spell in line with </font></strong></font></font><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#ccff33"><strong><font color="#ccff66">us! </font></strong></font></font></p><p><strong><font color="#ccff66">Reason why i say 500+ simple fact as having it single target will not at all make it over powering, and In having a root place on it so u can not use sandstorm at same time. </font><font color="#ccff33">Also like see the effect were tree growing out of the tank when it hit's like are old t3 spell did.</font></strong></p><p><span class="time_text">This would be a adding a tool to us that we need badly, besides i have enough useless spell's as it is! Why not take one of are useless spell's making it a better all around tool? This would add flavor to are class! Besides if spike damage coming in your going have make choice what to do with 2 sec casting time. I like the root and 3 min recasting time ideal it will force u makeing your mind up in how it would be best to use, and when to use it. In raid this 1 spell that will be ask for bring us up to par with fury's.</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:07 PM</span></p>

[Mrrockmeister]

WowI don't read the boards for a few days, and slayer goes off again.  Why complain and stress everyone out over something like this?  What is the point?  If you don't like it, then play another.The things you bring up aren't constructive critism, it's plain old bashing, and hate towards the warden.  Most wardens on the boards are happy with what we have.  Sure their can be improvements, but you make it out to be that we are at a lower tier than all healers.Again I state, if you don't like it, then play another class.  If you think in your mind that a templar or defiler has better direct heals, then why not go play one?  If you think that we can't handle spike dmg, then you really don't know how to play your class.Every class has querks, every class could use improvements, but the bottom line is, most are pretty happy with what they have right now.  Let's try and support that notion and work together for CONSTRUCTIVE critism on our class.And again I state "I LOVE MY WARDEN"  Any other healer to me is second class.Take Care<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Mrrockmeister wrote: Wow I don't read the boards for a few days, and slayer goes off again.  Why complain and stress everyone out over something like this?  What is the point?  If you don't like it, then play another. The things you bring up aren't constructive critism, it's plain old bashing, and hate towards the warden.  Most wardens on the boards are happy with what we have.  Sure their can be improvements, but you make it out to be that we are at a lower tier than all healers. Again I state, if you don't like it, then play another class.  If you think in your mind that a templar or defiler has better direct heals, then why not go play one?  If you think that we can't handle spike dmg, then you really don't know how to play your class. Every class has querks, every class could use improvements, but the bottom line is, most are pretty happy with what they have right now.  Let's try and support that notion and work together for CONSTRUCTIVE critism on our class. And again I state "I LOVE MY WARDEN"  Any other healer to me is second class. Take Care<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccff33">Do the number's with fury extra heal we are blow out of the water! Just cuase i site down do the math 2+2=4 no matter if u say i hate , like, dislike or whatever U THINK. Tunare's Watch FOR a </font><font color="#ccff66"><strong>ancient spell should be change not sandstorm!</strong></font></p><p><strong><font color="#ccff66">Atleast i try, and not just sit back try upset, hurt, or troll on a thread. I give my point of view just like anyone alse comes to forums, and can show the math on it! Now beside two post (that i did in angry) i have never said warden suck,  dislike, or hate. It's not toon sucks but it is few people behind the computer who have nothing more to do, but insult, hurt ,  troll!</font></strong></p><p><strong><font color="#ccff66">For someone that has 14 post  by no mean u upset , or hurt my feeling as your post was intended to do! Mybe instead of trolling u should try think of away to help LIKE most of  the other people have done! By the way i'm not the only one say spike damage is a problem! Just cuase i sit down and try hard see why they say are direct heal's are fine + i took 3-4 hour's in doing this. Sry , but  the number's just did not  add up!</font></strong></p><p><font color="#ccff66"><strong>ADDED NOTE: I have took alot of time in doing my post, and have gave great thought in to what i have said! (But i could be like u just come troll say i love my warden) With out ever doing 1 piece info! It's be much easy for me troll SAY i love my warden OR i could put alot time in, and after say i DO LOVE MY WARDEN,and want see a change for the better! How is your post at all </strong>CONSTRUCTIVE critism!</font></p></blockquote><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p>

[Wonderwolf]

<div></div><strong><em><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">ok<font color="#33cc99"> i think the wardens should get some type of upgrades i do not have a warden but everytime i group with a warden the group seaks an other healer becuase the warden cant keep up and all the wardens i group with say they cant do it. just the other day i had to leave a group for them to find an other healer for a quest that they were doing. when im grouped with any other class of healers theres only need for one healer in most cases. so i do agree that they can help out and change some things on the warden</font></font></em></strong>

[Erendar]

<div></div>I agree.  Wardens have good buffs but people usually prefer to group with a priests that have good heals or better dmg capabilities. It's no wonder you don't see as many wardens.  They could use an upgrade.

[Barand]

I take the bet that wonderwolf is somehow linked to slayerwarrior <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Most of the warden on this forum dont have any problem to be grouped i think from what i have read. Its only depend on how well you play, and warden may be one of the most difficult priest to master.Its true we need some improvment but not to the point of being at the moment incapable of healing a group.<div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Agreed.  I have no problem solo healing any group content.  Our heals I feel despite seeing a little dip in comparative healing numbers from the 5-7 second period are fine too.  I think the misconception might be that we heal for less, when in reality it's just that we have inferior buffs so we have a need to heal more and have your heals well timed.  I swear, if I see another 'group looking for shaman for hof' again I'm going to spazz on them =p  General concensus seems to be it's best to bring a cleric and shaman for anything.</p><p>Btw, if you do the math and hit your 1 sec, then 1.5 sec heal then solo hot right after you'll notice the instant heal time ticks right at 5 secs then at 7 secs (if no AA line in speeding up your hot).  This more then compensates in healing up a damage spike. </p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><p> I swear, if I see another 'group looking for shaman for hof' again I'm going to spazz on them =p  General concensus seems to be it's best to bring a cleric and shaman for anything.</p><hr></blockquote><div>Who can blame them? You get same healing (better in my oppinion vs spike) 1-1.5k more hp, debuffs and the psycological aspect of it, your tanks hp doesnt move much.</div><div> </div><div>I agree with those that say our hp/sek is not the problem, but we have worse buffs and no debuffs. Our now slightly better dps can not be said to be a compensation for this, not for a defencive healer (not for ANY healer IMO).</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Agreed.  Especially since shaman and clerics don't really have that much lower dps, they just never bother to buff intelligence so the difference seems larger.  Our 1 extra nuke doesn't make that much of a difference.</p><p>I believe the situation is that you can solo heal zones like halls of fate if you have enough upgrades and a good tank.  It's fun for me but lots might see it as stressful.  It's the 'you only need enough healing to survive' thing, where if you heal well you can make it through.  That being said, so can other classes.  Atm though, most prefer to bring a shaman and cleric because if you bring both those classes it's not only doable, but easy.  Strength of spells aside, any cleric and shaman can do it with a mediocre tank so that's the preferred method to do the zone from the looks of it.</p><p>I never knew that was the perception until speaking to others.  If you disagree, try doing the zone with out of guildies where you haven't earned their trust as a good healer yet.  You'll see what I mean.  Guaranteed if you try doing the zone they will pickup a cleric or shaman as a 2nd healer. and would prefer the cleric and shaman combo.</p>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><p>Agreed.  Especially since shaman and clerics don't really have that much lower dps, they just never bother to buff intelligence so the difference seems larger.  Our 1 extra nuke doesn't make that much of a difference.</p><p>I believe the situation is that you can solo heal zones like halls of fate if you have enough upgrades and a good tank.  It's fun for me but lots might see it as stressful.  It's the 'you only need enough healing to survive' thing, where if you heal well you can make it through.  That being said, so can other classes.  Atm though, most prefer to bring a shaman and cleric because if you bring both those classes it's not only doable, but easy.  Strength of spells aside, any cleric and shaman can do it with a mediocre tank so that's the preferred method to do the zone from the looks of it.</p><p>I never knew that was the perception until speaking to others.  If you disagree, try doing the zone with out of guildies where you haven't earned their trust as a good healer yet.  You'll see what I mean.  Guaranteed if you try doing the zone they will pickup a cleric or shaman as a 2nd healer. and would prefer the cleric and shaman combo.</p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccff33">I agree with u on buffing, but i just think your picking on the wrong spell imo. It should not be 1 spelll that brings are buffing in line with other classes, and  it will just make it easyer for them to focus on getting the stun nerf. I much rather like see are group hp bump up to 800 and have a 600-800 hp add to 1 of are single target buff like  primitive instinct or a combo in that area. Are buff ARE [Removed for Content](everone says this), AND  why in the world we have lose some gain some that all ready is [Removed for Content]?</font></p><p><font color="#ccff33">Like i said before not as if i could not solo hof , but that fact is tank wants  templar or a shaman their even if are healing is same. the fact is they have 5 times better hp buffs then we do.  I know with templar and a shaman they get are tank around 4-5k more hp. imo  i don't think getting are group hp buff bump up and add a hp well at all make us overpower but it would make are buff more inline with us.</font></p><p><font color="#ccff33">Add note: Wonderwolf said what she want to i had no input on that if i did just ready my post u know what my views are <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </font></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:49 AM</span></p>

[Crimson Dragon]

a few thoughts.1) since all of our heals are regens, when we get into spam healing situations, we end up recasting heals before they have fully ticked out their regen. (i do everything i can to avoid doing this, but there are just situations when you <b>need</b> that burst again before the ticks are done) so sometimes, we're losing that "full-regen" effect that we would otherwise get = cut a few hundred off of each round of casting the heals.2) did anyone feel that there was anything wrong with our heals <b>before</b> they did the initial combat changes? or our buffs for that matter? i don't know what the general consensus is, but i really enjoyed playing my warden pre-DoF. since then, i've been complaining and finding problems all the time. it's been kinda depressing for me, and subsequently i've been playing my brigand a lot more.<div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Before revamp we were the 2nd best buffing class with the best buffer being a templar.  The combo of guard, warden and troub was sick giving the guard 100% avoidance (we did Drayek with 6 people with that combo at 50).  The templar added the most mitigation, with their group reactive adding extra mitigation.  Since combat revamp, avoidance has been nurfed about 4 times over and capped at 80%.  Like I said, pre combat revamp the best buffers were:</p><p>Templar > Warden > Mystic > Inquis > Defilers > Furies or so.  You could argue to interchange Inquis and Defiler positions.</p><p>Now it's:  Templar > Defiler > Mystic > Inquis > Wardens > Furies.  We've been hit the hardest imo with the revamp out of defensive buffs.  Combine that Defilers, Mystics and Inquis get offensive buffs as well and it's even more lopsided.  We also lost our str buffs too so only have the tank solo buff for attack.</p>

[slayerwarrior]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crimson Dragon wrote: a few thoughts. 1) since all of our heals are regens, when we get into spam healing situations, we end up recasting heals before they have fully ticked out their regen. (i do everything i can to avoid doing this, but there are just situations when you <b>need</b> that burst again before the ticks are done) so sometimes, we're losing that "full-regen" effect that we would otherwise get = cut a few hundred off of each round of casting the heals. 2) did anyone feel that there was anything wrong with our heals <b>before</b> they did the initial combat changes? or our buffs for that matter? i don't know what the general consensus is, but i really enjoyed playing my warden pre-DoF. since then, i've been complaining and finding problems all the time. it's been kinda depressing for me, and subsequently i've been playing my brigand a lot more.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccff33">Nice point never thought of that , even pointing out another DISAVANTAGE about are direct heal's which is even better then i had posted, and incase of spaming we would have at that point lowest direct heal. Even if u point out having low direct heal at 50/50 is is a totall DISAVANTAGE when in trying to deal with spike damage people are unwilling to agree :/. </font></p><p><font color="#ccff33">SRY before revamp i was still was low lvl, and had a pally at lvl 47 end up selling hem cuase how bad they mess hem up, but since then been fix. I guess before revamp if u combo are direct heal with regen hitting right after we could heal at that  time for the highest amount of health. Even now if both hit same time we still have the lowest direct heal go figur went from highest to the lowest :/.</font></p><p><font color="#ccff33"></font> </p><p><font color="#ccff33">Before  revamp we went from 2nd buffing class to the to sec lowest buffing class. Sound like wardens got raw in of the deal , like pally did. No one ever going agree on how get us back inline out of the fact most say were ok and are unwilling to look at really problems. Sry i can some what see your point on sandstorm i just don't think that will fix are buffing problem even with 400 more mit to me that still low number, and can not compare to fury mit buff >:/.</font></p><p><span class="time_text">add note : sry but verdant bliss and sylvan streams can not be cast untill after that hot runs out so u were wrong about the dierct heals not getting full regen part. I alse left my point of view up just so u can see i will change my mind if i'm not right thanks!</span></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:53 PM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crimson Dragon wrote:a few thoughts.1) since all of our heals are regens, when we get into spam healing situations, we end up recasting heals before they have fully ticked out their regen. (i do everything i can to avoid doing this, but there are just situations when you <b>need</b> that burst again before the ticks are done) so sometimes, we're losing that "full-regen" effect that we would otherwise get = cut a few hundred off of each round of casting the heals.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is simply NOT true any longer.. they made our heals recast in the same amount of time as the duration so it is impossible to lose any regen. The only exception is that ss recasts at 5s and regen runs 6s so you can lose 1 tick if you spam it (according to rappy, I haven't tested myself but I'll trust he knows what he's talking about). 1 tick does not = hundreds of hp in healing; m1 is less than 100 per tick even on the biggest tick you can get out of it.

[Rappy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<blockquote><font color="#ffff00"> The only exception is that ss recasts at 5s and regen runs 6s so you can lose 1 tick if you spam it (according to rappy</font>, I haven't tested myself but I'll trust he knows what he's talking about). 1 tick does not = hundreds of hp in healing; m1 is less than 100 per tick even on the biggest tick you can get out of it.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Spot on Ryala!Theoretically this shouldnt happen with even the slightest amount of lag such as 0.1 seconds but it does.  I tested it a dozen times and it happens every time.</div>

[tinka]

<font color="#ff00cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">any healer is only as good as the person playing it, the right warden can solo heal in the right group, the players who say wardens cannot solo heal jus havent met the right warden yet  </font><div></div>

[Mrrockmeister]

<i>Quote"Atleast i try, and not just sit back try upset, hurt, or troll on a thread. I give my point of view just like anyone alse comes to forums, and can show the math on it! Now beside two post (that i did in angry) i have never said warden suck,  dislike, or hate. It's not toon sucks but it is few people behind the computer who have nothing more to do, but insult, hurt ,  troll!For someone that has 14 post  by no mean u upset , or hurt my feeling as your post was intended to do! Mybe instead of trolling u should try think of away to help LIKE most of  the other people have done! By the way i'm not the only one say spike damage is a problem! Just cuase i sit down and try hard see why they say are direct heal's are fine + i took 3-4 hour's in doing this. Sry , but  the number's just did not  add up!ADDED NOTE: I have took alot of time in doing my post, and have gave great thought in to what i have said! (But i could be like u just come troll say i love my warden) With out ever doing 1 piece info! It's be much easy for me troll SAY i love my warden OR i could put alot time in, and after say i DO LOVE MY WARDEN,and want see a change for the better! How is your post at all CONSTRUCTIVE critism!"</i>OMGI could not wait to post a reply to this.. LOLSlayer, so you even know what board trolls are?  You are one of them.  I don't care if you've posted 4 times or 400 times, every post u have is negative, and pisses someone off.  I have just started posting on the boards yes, that doesn't mean I haven't read everything that is here.  I have also done research on the relic armor, and posted some, as well as helped where I can in regards to upcoming changes.  I believe in the 14 posts I've helped 100% more than any of your posts.  Name a thread you have posted to that hasn't got someone riled up?  My post was not to upset you, it was to open your eyes to maybe rethinking your posts.  I don't care how much math you can do, why not try and be more positive in your posts, regardless of what the statistics are.  And yes, in different ways you have made posts that are geared towards hate, and please don't say you haven't because anyone on these boards can tell you that you have.I do love my warden, and do everything possible to help any wardens I come accross.  Even online, I've helped numerous wardens with questions about their class.  So I can say I love my warden, and I do help.  Why don't you try helping for once.Take Care<div></div>

[Rappy]

I saw a dead horse the other day.  Time for a flogging.10 DKP to the person that spots the sarcasm<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

dupe post sry<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Mrrockmeister wrote:<I>Quote"Atleast i try, and not just sit back try upset, hurt, or troll on a thread. I give my point of view just like anyone alse comes to forums, and can show the math on it! Now beside two post (that i did in angry) i have never said warden suck,  dislike, or hate. It's not toon sucks but it is few people behind the computer who have nothing more to do, but insult, hurt ,  troll!For someone that has 14 post  by no mean u upset , or hurt my feeling as your post was intended to do! Mybe instead of trolling u should try think of away to help LIKE most of  the other people have done! By the way i'm not the only one say spike damage is a problem! Just cuase i sit down and try hard see why they say are direct heal's are fine + i took 3-4 hour's in doing this. Sry , but  the number's just did not  add up!ADDED NOTE: I have took alot of time in doing my post, and have gave great thought in to what i have said! (But i could be like u just come troll say i love my warden) With out ever doing 1 piece info! It's be much easy for me troll SAY i love my warden OR i could put alot time in, and after say i DO LOVE MY WARDEN,and want see a change for the better! How is your post at all CONSTRUCTIVE critism!"</I>OMGI could not wait to post a reply to this.. LOLSlayer, so you even know what board trolls are?  You are one of them.  I don't care if you've posted 4 times or 400 times, every post u have is negative, and pisses someone off.  I have just started posting on the boards yes, that doesn't mean I haven't read everything that is here.  I have also done research on the relic armor, and posted some, as well as helped where I can in regards to upcoming changes.  I believe in the 14 posts I've helped 100% more than any of your posts.  Name a thread you have posted to that hasn't got someone riled up?  My post was not to upset you, it was to open your eyes to maybe rethinking your posts.  I don't care how much math you can do, why not try and be more positive in your posts, regardless of what the statistics are.  And yes, in different ways you have made posts that are geared towards hate, and please don't say you haven't because anyone on these boards can tell you that you have.I do love my warden, and do everything possible to help any wardens I come accross.  Even online, I've helped numerous wardens with questions about their class.  So I can say I love my warden, and I do help.  Why don't you try helping for once.Take Care<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again u waste another post, and only being a troll! Mybe instead of trying to put me down use your brain in trying to help? I don't see any help, but i do see a troll. I don't see u coming up with any ideals!<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

<FONT color=#ccff33></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote: I saw a dead horse the other day.  Time for a flogging. 10 DKP to the person that spots the sarcasm <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ME ME ME :p I GET I GET :p. <FONT color=#ccff33>o i add this since u done chart's rappy now do some testing show how much of the hot's are wasted! more likely the hot's on are 50/50 direct heals are wasted once mt get's to full. Even if it's  big number at 10 sec how much is lost once main tank get full health? I'm sure it don't take 10 sec's get hem back to full hp again!</FONT><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 PM</span>

[Rappy]

All of our heals besides bounty of the virtuous are HoT's.. which HoT's are you refering to?  Oh and since you have asked me to do this on your behalf who should I address the invoice to?<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

If u want me do the chart i will, but i don't think u like the number's! cuase i can show 30%-50% of the time are hot's on are big direct heal are wasted. Since most time it take about 5-7 sec get hem at full hp. So in that amount of time frame u lose 3-5 of tick's on averag it about 3 ticks.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div>A quick thing regarding this runs into some fundamental problems with any model.<ol><li>If you assume a certain amount of Damage per second taken, all you have to do is time your heals well and there is no waste whatsoever.  VB does an average of 1667 at adept 3 and SS does an average of 876.  Taking into account a small amount of combat hp regeneration you should be able to adequately balance these with little waste.</li><li>If you assume that another healer is involved causing the wasted healing, then the problem is the other healer not the warden.  I have often bonked a cleric on the head after they watch a big regen go in and decide they are going to top the tank up with a 800 hp heal when theres 100's dropping over their head every second.  Ignorance of other healers is not a criticism of our class.  They are failing to take into account the heal over time and as such are being lazy and not working with you.  Most wardens with experience are able to balance healing well to take into account the heal over time and do not just send in the biggest heal to pick up a 1% drop in the tanks hp.  This would therefore be a problem as the other healer being inexperienced with working with a warden.</li><li>If you model a damage of 600 hp damage on a tank most wardens would choose to cast the small heal not the large heal altering the waste model etc.</li><li>You assume the other healers have no waste.  What about wards or reactives where no damage is taken?  They fade in time and do not just stay on the tank for life until he takes damage 8 days later.  What about heals that are cast by a cleric where theres 1k damage on the tank and the heal only lands for 1k of its 1500 heal.</li></ol>The difficulty you have is that if you factor in waste for a warden you must compare that to situations and the other healers.  This is a practical impossibility outside of just parsing healing on a raid.  Talk to Ryala about heal parses on raids.Don't take this as a put down mate, nothing personal but I don't see the point in this, the more waste the more you are healing wrongly.EDIT:- for the purposes of furthering my point.  Done some basic mathematics for you regarding waste.  Really this is a power cost issue, you invest power into a heal and if it doesnt heal its full amount it is the power wasted because the only reason the heal may not be healing its full amount is if the tank is either 100% hp or 0% hp.Healers with identical power use to us for large and small heals are mystics and inquisitors.<ul><li>Large heal on mystic and inquisitor does an average of 1296 health for 254 power, small heal does 730 health for 146 power.</li><li>Large heal on Warden does 1667 health for 254 power, small heal does 876 health for 146 power</li></ul><font color="#ffff00"><b>In short, you have to loose more than 22.256% (4.4 tics) of the large heal or 16.667% (2 tics) for the small heal before you actually get less healing per power cost than the other classes</b></font><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote: A quick thing regarding this runs into some fundamental problems with any model. <OL> <LI>If you assume a certain amount of Damage per second taken, all you have to do is time your heals well and there is no waste whatsoever.  VB does an average of 1667 at adept 3 and SS does an average of 876.  Taking into account a small amount of combat hp regeneration you should be able to adequately balance these with little waste.</LI> <LI>If you assume that another healer is involved causing the wasted healing, then the problem is the other healer not the warden.  I have often bonked a cleric on the head after they watch a big regen go in and decide they are going to top the tank up with a 800 hp heal when theres 100's dropping over their head every second.  Ignorance of other healers is not a criticism of our class.  They are failing to take into account the heal over time and as such are being lazy and not working with you.  Most wardens with experience are able to balance healing well to take into account the heal over time and do not just send in the biggest heal to pick up a 1% drop in the tanks hp.  This would therefore be a problem as the other healer being inexperienced with working with a warden.</LI> <LI>If you model a damage of 600 hp damage on a tank most wardens would choose to cast the small heal not the large heal altering the waste model etc.</LI> <LI>You assume the other healers have no waste.  What about wards or reactives where no damage is taken?  They fade in time and do not just stay on the tank for life until he takes damage 8 days later.  What about heals that are cast by a cleric where theres 1k damage on the tank and the heal only lands for 1k of its 1500 heal.</LI></OL>The difficulty you have is that if you factor in waste for a warden you must compare that to situations and the other healers.  This is a practical impossibility outside of just parsing healing on a raid.  Talk to Ryala about heal parses on raids. Don't take this as a put down mate, nothing personal but I don't see the point in this, the more waste the more you are healing wrongly. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>I can agree little and no i don't take it as a put down!  My problem is all are heals are over time so to get full use out ever single heal we now must have mt allways be lower 100%.  Now u just put a direct heal out of what it should be a direct heal, in to special heal as are regen.  Now u go back in saying reactor can get wasted sure they can but in their direct heal  they can go around, and not have any wasted. We are force to have all are heals at some point wasted! </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>Now if u say (What about heals that are cast by a cleric where theres 1k damage on the tank and the heal only lands for 1k of its 1500 heal.) they have small heal that will amost cover that amount damage then can cast reactor's.  If they cast their big direct heal well it's them not being so good at healing wasting their heal's. We have no choice once main tank at full health we can have all are heals wasted. add now not only we have regens being wasted but are direct heals little hot's are being wasted and we have no choice.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>u add Healers with identical power use to us for large and small heals are mystics and inquisitors. </P> <UL> <LI>Large heal on mystic and inquisitor does an average of 1296 health for 254 power, small heal does 730 health for 146 power. </LI> <LI>Large heal on Warden does 1667 health for 254 power, small heal does 876 health for 146 power</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><B>In short, you have to loose more than 22.256% (4.4 tics) of the large heal or 16.667% (2 tics) for the small heal before you actually get less healing per power cost than the other </B></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#0066ff>Sure numbers looks good but back to my old point how many time u going site let full tick of are hot's get main tank at full health? None we will be chain casting untill he is, and  then after that ever single heal we have can be wasted.</FONT> Now they are wasting in ticks that big number u got is much less. </FONT></STRONG></P> <P></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Rappy]

There is a tendancy to overheal as a warden especially if you loose confidence in the direct heals.  It may be worth just holding your breath for that extra couple of seconds and seeing what a difference it makes.  I am not talking about when the tank is at 10% hp but rather when the tank first takes damage.  Clearly if the tank is about to die you spam all the heals you have but in this situation all heals will be landing for their full amount and not wasted.  Try and bare in mind the regen of the direct heal when assessing how much damage the tank has taken and how much dps the mob is putting out.I don't mean this to sound patronising, just trying to help you balance things as you have clearly lost all confidence in our very capable direct heals.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

(just trying to help you balance things as you have clearly lost all confidence in our very capable direct heals.) U don't need help me, my point was once mt if full heal ever single heal we have can lose alot more heal then any other healer in the game. beside it would be very rare get ever tick out of any regen part of a heal! To over heal well the way thing are set up that would be easy or hard to do this their is no in between. We can lose most health in are heal's then any other healing class and have no choice. why do u not see this? If u think i'm on this forums cuase i can not do my healing job your dead wrong. It's just a fact are direct heal's is special heal's no longer have true direct heal.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span>

[Oakum]

<DIV>edited to add the post since I hit enter by accident.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Oakum on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 PM</span>

[Mrrockmeister]

OkI'm gonna try and be nice in how I state this to someone who just doesn't understand.We are a regen based class.  Druids were the same in EQ1.  Our direct heals have HOT with them because this is what we do.  We may not heal as much initially, but over time we beat most healer classes.  It has been proven in the charts others have created.Of course you'll always have waste, bu either the tank going full life before the HOT ticker is done, or someone else healing him.  But factor waste for all classes, as everyone wastes power by over healing.  Just because we regen over time and we lose a few ticks, doesn't make us less of a healer.  Factor all of that in and we still out heal most classes over time.I have no problem with the way our heals are at the moment and I hope they don't start playing with them, because once they do, then you'll really have something to complain about.  /nerfTake Care<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mrrockmeister wrote: Ok I'm gonna try and be nice in how I state this to someone who just doesn't understand. We are a regen based class.  Druids were the same in EQ1.  Our direct heals have HOT with them because this is what we do.  We may not heal as much initially, but over time we beat most healer classes.  It has been proven in the charts others have created. Of course you'll always have waste, bu either the tank going full life before the HOT ticker is done, or someone else healing him.  But factor waste for all classes, as everyone wastes power by over healing.  Just because we regen over time and we lose a few ticks, doesn't make us less of a healer.  Factor all of that in and we still out heal most classes over time. I have no problem with the way our heals are at the moment and I hope they don't start playing with them, because once they do, then you'll really have something to complain about.  /nerf Take Care <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff33>Then why ant fury's same?  are chance is greater and more often to waste hot's.  What make us some much more special then fury's? beside this is not eq1 either. Trying say we out heal most classes , just parse your self 1 time in a raid with out useing group regen after a aoe see how good it is</FONT>. <FONT color=#ccff33>Fury's with their extra heal out heal's us. </FONT> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <SPAN class=date_text>04-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:35 PM</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 PM</span>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mrrockmeister wrote:<BR><BR>I'm gonna try and be nice in how I state this to someone who just doesn't understand.<BR><BR>We are a regen based class.  Druids were the same in EQ1.  Our direct heals have HOT with them because this is what we do.  We may not heal as much initially, but over time we beat most healer classes.  It has been proven in the charts others have created.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Furies are druids too.  However, they while they do have 1 single and 1 group HoT, they also have 2 single and 2 group direct heals none of which have HoT components.

[Formangenavn]

<P>It could be very interesting to have our healing parsed and then after figure out what spells we cast and how much we realy could have healed for, so to find out how much realy is wasted. Compare this with other classes and we might have something interesting.</P> <P>Actually doing this would recuire a LOT of work though, and would never really be 100% correct, but I do belive waste is more of a problem for us then anyone else, though I dont have any numbers to back this up of course. Reason for me thinking this is that no one knows what will happen the next 10 sec. Sure, if damage was incoming at a steady state we could predict what and when to cast, but everyone knows this isnt the case (not that we can heal for a steady amount at full burst anyway, as I found out trying to optimize casting of our heals). Druids have the only special heal that can go completely  to waist before duration is done and we are the only once that suffer the same faith on our DHs. </P> <P>To be perfectly honest, i think our DHs are slightly better then the others to counter the fact that they have HoTs on them, but our special heals are a completely differnt thing all togather. When it comes to tank beeing hit once every 2 sec or faster wards and reactives can heal more then HoTs. When tank is hit less then once every 2 sec (at some point, but I suspect very close to 2 sec) HoTs will become better then reactives, but never better then wards. The third aspect of this is max hp/sec which also requires you to take cast and recast time into consideration since you will want to use DHs and special heals, and this is where we actually might come out better then the other healers. And then you have waste, oh, and are we healing for 10 sec? 60 sec? 5 min?</P> <P>Getting a grip on who actually heals more is to much work for me to even think about. My initial thought however is that we in no way are overpowered when it comes to healing. Most fights are fast and intencive, and that is not where we shine IMHO. My gut actually tells me the shammys are the once having the slight edge, and that is why I have made a Defiler :smileysurprised:</P> <P>Not that I am going to betray my Warden though. Only have one level left to cap, so cant quit on him now :smileywink:</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>OK, I've been saying that our direct heals are fine the way they're built for a while now... but just something that I found out the other day that sort of support's slayer's view on our heals... /gulp</P> <P>I believe when you look at the numbers solely ungrouped we are the best healer.  Hands down.  The problem is this expansion where they added AAs and bards with their group spell haste...  There are 4 things working against us:</P> <OL> <LI>The troubador's ability Jester's cap reduces recast timers and cast times by 25%.  The description says more but it's currently not working correctly.  It's 25%.</LI> <LI>The int line of bards reduces group casting times by I believe, don't quote me on this, 10%.  </LI> <LI>The cleric AA that reduces their casting times as a passive buff</LI> <LI>The cleric ungodly 8 point ability that gets rid of all their casting times and reduces recast times.</LI></OL> <P>Now if someone reduces our casting times I still believe it's a net positive for us.  Our heals will lose healing ticks, but the overall effect is positive.  It could even compensate for the downtime on your group hot since there's a big chunk of time with the 8 point faster hot AAs where you can't maintain it.  Same applies for the passive bard ability.</P> <P>However, when you combine all of the above 3.... inquisators and templars are healing more then us consistently in raids, especially inquisators.  Inquisators remember heal as often as us but have longer casting times and shorter recasts.  I've been boasting for a bit that we outheal everyone else in raids so it compensated for our [Removed for Content] buffs.  Not anymore.  As our clerics started getting more and more AAs I started falling further and further behind.  Now it's about 10% min loss to a cleric and growing per week.  It just makes sense too.  </P> <P>A 36 sec buff where clerics have no casting time and reduces recast?  Are you kidding me?  Who the hell came up with that bright idea.  They cast that on pull and now it's them who are the ones who are healing more through the debuffing period.  Then they get to bring their 2 sec heals down to 1.8 sec on their own permanently through AAs, then down to 1.6 permanently with a bard (might be 1.7 and am not sure).  With their full upfront heals they're owning us.</P> <P>So why do clerics get a buff that reduces casting times and not druids?  Answer is simple.  It doesnt fit well with our ticking heals so we got faster ticking hots.  Seem even to anyone here?  Quite simply, we have [Removed for Content] buffs and now we heal for a lot less.... there's now a strong argument for us being a broken class.  Not needing tweaks like I said before, but broken because these faster casting abilities will only get stronger as time progresses.  The concept of hots on our heals will hurt us more as time progresses.</P> <P>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <SPAN class=date_text>04-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:15 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 AM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<P>This is very disturbing. The reason why I thought our heals would hold up against, say a Templar, is becouse we can actually stack our heals better then them becouse of faster casting times (you can se a discussion I had with Timaarit here <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=23488&page=3" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=23488&page=3</A>)</P> <P>If Cleric cast times can be reduced that much they will out heal us for sure, beacuse they can now to a much better extent cast their heals back to back. I did try to stack Templar heals for max hp/sec, and the very problem for them is that they use a lot of time casting. With that problem gone things are looking very different.</P> <P>They SERIUSLY need to do something to our buffs. </P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Oh one more thing.... if you ever hear a cleric say that we get dps to compensate for their extra healing and buffing call them on it, it's bs.  They get heal haste not through agility like us but through their intelligence line.  They also get a dps mod and spell crits through the same AA line... if a cleric actually got off their behind and tried getting a good 2 hander and doing some damage they should outdps us or easily equal us now.  Our one extra nuke doesn't make up for everything they're getting.  Not even close.  Wolves = hammer.  1 nuke is our only advantage.  We get 2, they get 1... sad. </P> <P>One thing I forgot to mention.  Just so everyone remembers, our faster ticking hots is just on our actual hots.  The hot portion of heals don't tick faster.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 AM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

Well i never said this but another warden in a different guild said he was being out heal for 20% i just left it out cuase i did not know anything about templar's.beside that was sec hand info i could not prove it.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 AM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>Oh one more thing.... if you ever hear a cleric say that we get dps to compensate for their extra healing and buffing call them on it, it's bs.  They get heal haste not through agility like us but through their intelligence line.  They also get a dps mod and spell crits through the same AA line... if a cleric actually got off their behind and tried getting a good 2 hander and doing some damage they should outdps us or easily equal us now.  Our one extra nuke doesn't make up for everything they're getting.  Not even close.  Wolves = hammer.  1 nuke is our only advantage.  We get 2, they get 1... sad. </P> <P>One thing I forgot to mention.  Just so everyone remembers, our faster ticking hots is just on our actual hots.  The hot portion of heals don't tick faster.</P> <P>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <SPAN class=date_text>04-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Funny you should mention this because with the resent increase in sahmmy and cleric dps I was wondering how much of a difference there realy is anymore. Maby I will get around doing a comparison one of these days :smileyhappy:<BR>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well just thought I'd link the spells.  I found a list of their AAs on their forums.  There was a thread about blackscale maul, once they figure out how procs work and stuff I'm sure they'll surpase us in dps too, just look below.  Just a learning curve atm.</P> <P>So anyways.  Here's a listing of their abilities so everyone can see how lopsided they are for themselves and see what I'm talking about.  Just like us there's one path that's sorta the right path for raiding.  I didn't know it's a group buff for their 8 point ability, but regardless it wouldn't benefit us as much with the ticking hot direct heals.  Oh and look at that.  They now have as many nukes as us, just our recast is 8 secs while theirs is 30..... notwithstanding passive spell haste making it 20:</P> <P>sta line :<BR>deacon's stamina (passive)<BR> increase sta of caster by 5.0</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hammer smite : target ennemy, 82 mana, cast 0.5s, recov 0.5s, recast 45.0s, range 5.0m<BR> inflict 183-305 divine dmg on target<BR> applies knockdown. last for 4.0s<BR>   blurs vision of target<BR>   throws target back<BR>   stuns target<BR>   if target is not epic<BR> if two handed greathammer or hammer equiped in primary</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>severe judgement (passive)<BR> increase melee crit chance of caster by 12.5%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>inspired renewal (passive)<BR> increase heal crit chance of caster by 2.0%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>int line<BR>arbiter's intelligence (passive)<BR> increase int of caster by 6.0 <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>divine castigation : target ennemy, 99 mana, cast 2.0s, recov 0.5s, recast 30.0s, range 35m<BR> inflict 300-500 divine damage on target<BR> if two handed staff equiped in primary</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pact of the faithful (passive)<BR> increase damage spell crit chance of caster by 3.5%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>facile grace (passive)<BR> reduce casting time of caster by 1.1%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>divine recovery : target group (ae), 58 mana, cast 0.2s, recov instant, recast 5min, duration 30s, effect radius 50.0m<BR> reduce recovery timers of group member (ae) by 33%<BR> reduce casting timers of group members (ae) by 100%</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 AM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

1 more thing to add it does make are regen faster but we lose in the over all time to. Like single regen and group regen last for 10 sec's. Well if u max the aa in are agi line it does reduce tick on regen to 1.6 but it also lowers duration from 10 secs to 8.4 secs = u lose 1.6secs . So u do get faster regen but u will not get extra tick = u heal for same amount. Now for single regen u can keep it up and 8.4 not some much of a problem but in group regen u u can not keep it up. So were u gain a tick in single regen u lose a tick in group regen = same amount of heal over all. Well to be fair if u add 2 sec's casting time on single regen = 8 secs.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 AM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<P>To be fair our single target HoT does have a recast time of 6 sec, so that one could have a slightly higher efficiency. Not so with our grp HoT though.</P> <P>Started posting before I saw your edit :smileyhappy:</P><p>Message Edited by Formangenavn on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well that does it.  I look at the templar forums and all their incessant whining and we need to do that same.  I look at thier AA abilities and can't believe I ever defended ours.  As the self proclaimed dps warden I'm very very very jealous.  </P> <P>Templars even get a 1k mitigation debuff they never use because 'it doesn't do much'.  I mean common.  I'm going to become the biggest crybaby there is from now on because obviously that's what works.  It's now obvious inquisators heal the most 2nd to templars, templars have the best buffs in the game, inquisators should have the best dps out of healers followed pretty closely by templars and furies.  I'm feeling pretty disillusioned atm....  why do i read forums!  Ignorance is bliss!  Maybe I'll just go play my brigand, had him before revamp and was my first toon to 50 before we NEEDED A WARDEN!  If I do i'm never going to read forums again.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 AM</span>

[Barand]

Same here each time i see other priest spell i feel disapointed We just kept being nerf and other priest get boost. They are putting other priest to the point warden were before LU13 and putting us to the place of other priest before that. <div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<P>If u read page 16 their even asking for 25% more reduce timer's! But they also say they can not do their jobs as healer's anymore ethier.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11132&page=16" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11132&page=16</A></P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 AM</span>

[Rappy]

With reduction in recast timer buffs they should consider increasing the HoT rate (not going to happen but heck, doesnt take away from the fact they should)As usual they have failed to consider warden healing when calculating these buffs in.  It will be months, even a couple of expansions before a dev even sits down to address this or even notice it.  I'd love to be proved wrong<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

Well i even really hate say this only way get fix if u just stop playing your warden. Thats what other classes have done were fix with in few weeks. Right now i'm playing my mystic out of the fact i knew we were getting out heal just no proof >:/or knew how.They also should let duration stay the same and add are direct heal hots to the aa time as well.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 AM</span>

[Rappy]

never said we were getting out healed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />enjoy the mystic man<div></div>

[Touryn]

If someone is willing to sit down and parse Wardens vs. other priests (for both dps and healing), I wouldn't be opposed to integrating the results into the complaint compilation.  If a 70 cleric with their int AA line can truely outheal and outdps us (with the pretty much established outbuffing), that is a clear balance issue.  As it stands, the compilation is a lot of comparison to "other healers," so specifics would be very helpful.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>I believe when you look at the numbers solely ungrouped we are the best healer.  Hands down.  The problem is this expansion where they added AAs and bards with their group spell haste...  There are 4 things working against us:</P> <OL> <LI>The troubador's ability Jester's cap reduces recast timers and cast times by 25%.  The description says more but it's currently not working correctly.  It's 25%.</LI> <LI>The int line of bards reduces group casting times by I believe, don't quote me on this, 10%.  </LI> <LI>The cleric AA that reduces their casting times as a passive buff</LI> <LI>The cleric ungodly 8 point ability that gets rid of all their casting times and reduces recast times.</LI></OL> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You forgot the shammy AA line that reduces cast and recast timers for a single player by 33%.  It used to be group only but was nerfed in LU21.  I don't think the templa version removes cast times just recast timers (I know thats what the description says but grouping with templars I don't have 0 cast timers so I think the description is backwards).</P> <P>Meanwhile all we get for 8 points is a <STRONG>self only</STRONG> anti-stun which rarely works.  Anyone who thinks our AA lines are balanced seriously needs to pay attention to the other priest AA lines.</P><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Mrrockmeister]

Personally the only AA ability I liked and spent points in things that suck just to get to it was the heal crits.  I maxed out heal crits to rank 8 and not suire what to do now with my other points.The stun is horrible, the wisdom line isn't what it should be.  I thought we were not the only class getting shafted in AAs, but it seems like we are now.Does anyone have a heal parsing program like the DPS parser, in which we I can test out the templar vs warden?Take Care<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote: <P>I believe when you look at the numbers solely ungrouped we are the best healer.  Hands down.  The problem is this expansion where they added AAs and bards with their group spell haste...  There are 4 things working against us:</P> <OL> <LI>The troubador's ability Jester's cap reduces recast timers and cast times by 25%.  The description says more but it's currently not working correctly.  It's 25%. <LI>The int line of bards reduces group casting times by I believe, don't quote me on this, 10%.  <LI>The cleric AA that reduces their casting times as a passive buff <LI>The cleric ungodly 8 point ability that gets rid of all their casting times and reduces recast times.</LI></OL> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You forgot the shammy AA line that reduces cast and recast timers for a single player by 33%.  It used to be group only but was nerfed in LU21.  I don't think the templa version removes cast times just recast timers (I know thats what the description says but grouping with templars I don't have 0 cast timers so I think the description is backwards).</P> <P>Meanwhile all we get for 8 points is a <STRONG>self only</STRONG> anti-stun which rarely works.  Anyone who thinks our AA lines are balanced seriously needs to pay attention to the other priest AA lines.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>I do remeber being able to chain nuke in hof when i was group with one, but it does reduce recovery timers by 33% and reduces casting timeer by 100% for 24 sec's to all group memebers.</FONT></P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>(You forgot the shammy AA line that reduces cast and recast timers for a single player by 33%.)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33>it's say group friends,  last for 30.secs with recaster timer of 3 mins. 1 sec casting time.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <SPAN class=date_text>04-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 PM</span>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote: never said we were getting out healed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> enjoy the mystic man <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>mystic blah i'm ready make a templar now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>ADD: LoL u should all look at their agi line talk about us being aviodance buffers lmfao they have spell blows anything we have away <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Their agi is aslo very nice. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>Wondrous Buckling rank 1 does: stuns target, pervents aoe (except when direct) ,dispelled when target takes damage , if buckler equipped in secondary. does not effect epics. last for 10.6 , recast 45 sec's,  casting .5 secs</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>Battle Fervor  rank 1 does:  passive skill to add 5% to their mele damage</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>THIS SPELL ROCKS  shield ally (Grants the protector a chance  to shield  an ally from mele attack's, by allowing  the target a chance use the Protector's avoidance  check after their own avoidance check)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>Shield Ally  rank 1 does : untill cancel   grants group 7% to additional attemp to aviod being hit by mele hit useing caster  avoidance. edit for fact i was wrong still nice spell tho.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33>Holy shield:   Prevents aoe ( except when direct) for 30 sec's. recasting 5 min,  casting 2 sec's rang up to 50 meter's.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33>their 2 aa lines int and agi blows AWAY anything we got O_O and in looking sta not bad either if they want 2% heal  crit chance . </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33>If this don't show or prove how unfair things are i really lost for words now. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>Shield ally <SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff33>(Grants the protector a chance  to shield  an ally from mele attack's, by allowing  the target a chance use the Protector's avoidance  check after their own avoidance check)</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>edit for fact i was dead wrong please read blow. still nice spell kinda sad templar's got it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33> I want this spell!</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <SPAN class=date_text>04-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <SPAN class=date_text>04-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:59 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well how could we show a parser to show the problem?  In raids it's dependant on timing of heals, players involved and the mob.  Hum...</P> <P>Looked at a couple of mobs comparing where it was my job to keep the hot up and another person's job to keep the solo reactive up.  Both have the master hot/reactive and all master heals with the master2 lvl 60 direct heal:  </P> <OL> <LI>The corsolander:  Inquis - 130k, me 100k</LI> <LI>Doom reaver encounter - Inquis 55k, me 57k</LI> <LI>Doomright Vakrizt - Inquis 24k, me 17k</LI> <LI>Slavering Alzid - Inquis 38k, me 39k</LI></OL> <P>But how do you directly compare those?  For the Doomright and slavering alzid, we only had 4 healers on when we did them.  Our 2nd cleric and zerk couple weren't online yet so we only had 22 people.  I don't think they're good comparisons though and anything that you 2 tank can't really be counted.  I donno... I don't think they show anything really.</P> <P>I think it would be best to show that theoretically we're getting outhealed to take away from the strength of the player.  Show that with even equipment with spell haste clerics will outheal us.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<P>The time to claim some improvements to the Warden class is upon us, but we better have our facts right. I am extremely glad to see a lot of people post here these days but we need some hard facts so what do you all suggest?</P> <P>I for one would like a parse of HoF and perhaps some other instances where it was shown how much damage was done by the different non melee types. This would show how much our +resist would help vs raw hp. Many already knows the anwer to this, but to put things in perspective:</P> <P>A +5% increase in resist (a bit more then what we bring I belive) would mean the same for a tank taking 20k damage as 1k more hp, IF all that damage was non melee. Lets just say I think the disparity will be staggering.</P> <P>We also need some numbers on what sand storm does. How much dps can it reduce with the knockdown effect? What doe sthe extra defence do. SS can be a good spell, but it is better to have numbers on it when it is brought up.</P> <P>The debuff on our roots should also be considered. Personally I do not think id does much, but I have never actually checked it, but be sure it will be mentioned by other classes.</P> <P>A comparison of the "obvious" aa lines between healers also would be helpfull. </P> <P>A new dps comparison.</P> <P>Unfortionally I am away for one week with parents in law, so cant check these things for myself until then. Perhaps someone already have?</P>

[Dallun]

<blockquote><hr>slayerwarrior wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rappy wrote: never said we were getting out healed <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> enjoy the mystic man <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p><font color="#ccff33">Shield ally <span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff33">(Grants the protector a chance  to shield  an ally from mele attack's, by allowing  the target a chance use the Protector's avoidance  check after their own avoidance check)</font></span></font></p> <p><font color="#ccff33">Ok here is a better way to understand way this spell works :  if mt get check for 60% chance to avoid and mob would hit hem then it would recheck with this spell  granting another chance at 56% for mob to miss. So u are adding another 56% chance in missing again. so u could add 60% + 56%= 116% chance to miss</font></p> <p><font color="#ccff33">So ever time he might get hit he get another chance to be miss. Now i under stand why my mt say templar's spell was like warden pre lu13. Sense i have now clue about what happen in lu13, and no clue about this spell at time it was said.</font></p> <p><font color="#ccff33"> I want this spell!</font></p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p> <p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:57 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class="date_text">04-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:59 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hold up there hoss... a bit of misunderstanding seems to be going here with this.... First off... the ability says that it gives a chance for the target to avoid a second time.     That means that in the above example, you would have a 56% chance of getting the effect to go off...     Also the avoidance would not go off the target but instead off the caster, IE the Templar's avoidance. So... by the numbers: 60% chance to avoid base 56% cahnce to PROC the second avoid chance Factor in an assumed Templar avoidance of 15% thats 60%+15%*56% = 68.4% avoidance Just a clarification. Dallun 70 Warden Antonia Bayle<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<DIV>Hm your right sry, but i seen this spell work i must say it did add to mobs missing alot, but  it was vs 70S epic trash mobs. Thanks  i stand wrong o well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But it is a nice spell from the way i have seen it in use. ONE more um  we as warden should buff avoidance anyways? Truste me this spell works very nicely. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mybe it's bug tho to like templar's single target reactor's which some times has no casting time.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well about showing us getting outhealed... hum.  How could you do that?  I mean the numbers I posted was with a cleric with only the passive spell haste, not with the 8 point AA ability to remove cast times completely and reduce recast.  I don't even know if anyone has the full 50 AA points yet....when they do it'll really get ugly too.  Being outhealed was very rare before if it ever happened on harder mobs.  Getting beat by 30% now on a harder mob is just bad now, plus when I won the parse I was in G1 I believe and was using my group hot at times for extra oumph I think.</P> <P>I'll try writing up a spreadsheet showing the difference in healing numbers.... think that's the only way to go.  I'll base it on the model from the templar forums based on mob hitting once per sec, once per 2 secs and once per 3 secs.  See how that goes.</P> <P>Then I'll add in spell haste AA plus the 8 point ability with us in the group (because it's not likely but still showing that we're trying to be the most reasonable possible to show the disparity), jester's cap being alternated between us and an inquis and the bard passive buff.  How can you show the difference when there are no cast timers?  Weird... hum.... I'll have to group with someone who actually has it to see how it actually works vs spell description (like jester's cap that's only 25% spell haste despite the description).  See how that works out.... plus I'll leave out heal crits.  I found out, reactives CAN heal crit making them absorb more damage.</P> <P>Donno when I'll be done, I mean... new raid zone and all.... I'll work on it when I'm contested camping I guess.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Ok well, I need some help on builing this model.  I want it to be as accurate as possible but not sure how to structure it.  Here are some of the things I found out:</P> <P>With passive haste from cleric AAs and bard spell haste the cast times on cleric vs wardens are:</P> <P>                                                 I nquisator                                        Warden</P> <P>Solo special                          2 sec > 1.7 sec                             2 sec > 1.9</P> <P>Small heal                             2 sec > 1.7 sec                             1 sec > .9 sec</P> <P>Big heal                                 3 sec > 2.5 sec                             1.5 sec > 1.4 sec</P> <P>Group special                       5 secs > 4.2 sec                            3 sec > 2.8 sec</P> <P>The bard spell haste is actually 6.8% spell haste for group with 8 points into the ability.  Now how should I build this model?  I feel it would miss the big picture if I left out the group reactive from Inquisators since the cast time is pretty drastically reduced.  Here's the assumptions I was thinking of building it on, lemme know what you think.</P> <OL> <LI>Start off with no reactives or hots on the tank.  Even though it's unrealistic and will make our numbers higher comparatively, just feel it's better that way.</LI> <LI>Only do one model with the mob hitting every 2 seconds for an amount over the reactive amount.</LI> <LI>Have the healer lead off with solo reactive, then group.  Healer will prioritize casting in the following order solo special (hot/reactive), then group, then large heal, then small heal.</LI> <LI>Have a tank with infinite hit points and just show healing numbers.  Having a tank with a set amount of health is unrealistic given clerics buff a lot more hps.</LI> <LI>Do the model over 2 minutes, average raid length.</LI> <LI>Exclude jester cap (with 25% off recast and cast times) and the 8 point AA ability that clerics get.  It would be just too hard to build into the model.  If this model shows a large disparity, then you can count on those 2 abilities furthering it.</LI> <LI>How many hits before expiring is the solo reactive of cleric's lvl 68 ability?</LI></OL> <P>Sound good?  Any suggestions?</P> <P>Mayi - LoC</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[Barand]

Sounds difficult but may be usefull. As you said it will not take into account lots of things warden miss but at least if we come back with proof that will heal the same than other (or less) we will be able  to argue that we need debuff or buff to keep up with the other. <div></div>

[Rappy]

Clerics buff hp, my guild friends alt 50 templar can add 1k+Shamen buff hp through sta (less important with capping) and hp buffs.Druids get a 321 master 1 hp buff by level 70Theres a significant issue with numbers here when regens work best if a tank has a lot of hp.  This would suggest a balance issue.  Not sure why this is factored in and the druids are lowest of the low on hp buffs but it was of interest to me today.  Would be interesting if someone has more hard information on this (it's 2am too late for me to get hold of the entire spell information right now).If someone could sit down and do the math on the hp buff capabilities of the other healer spell lines you will see why we often <b>feel</b> like we are healing less.  If theres less hp, there is less 'give' in the system when stacking up regens making it much harder to balance heal and power use.  A bigger hp buff would go a long way to helping wardens bring more to the buff table.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rappy wrote:<BR>Clerics buff hp, my guild friends alt 50 templar can add 1k+<BR>Shamen buff hp through sta (less important with capping) and hp buffs.<BR><BR>Druids get a 321 master 1 hp buff by level 70<BR><BR>Theres a significant issue with numbers here when regens work best if a tank has a lot of hp.  This would suggest a balance issue.  Not sure why this is factored in and the druids are lowest of the low on hp buffs but it was of interest to me today.  Would be interesting if someone has more hard information on this (it's 2am too late for me to get hold of the entire spell information right now).<BR><BR>If someone could sit down and do the math on the hp buff capabilities of the other healer spell lines you will see why we often <B>feel</B> like we are healing less.  If theres less hp, there is less 'give' in the system when stacking up regens making it much harder to balance heal and power use.  A bigger hp buff would go a long way to helping wardens bring more to the buff table.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mybe the test should inclued with and with out hp buffs?  I do agree when need hp buff badly, but what about sandstorm that need to have % to avoidance. If someone point me to hp buff of other classes i will do the math.

[Rappy]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Using purely hp buffs, no specials, no stat buffs, just plain and simple hp buffs both group and single target i get these numbers.  I specifically avoided the percentage hike of HP because this is difficult to factor for a simple snapshot analysis.  I also excluded stamina buffs because most raid tanks are able to max out their stamina.  I have however included the relevant stat buffs in brackets so you can see where they are.All spells used adept 3 and assuming only that class is using their HP buffs (equivalent of a single group healer)<font color="#6666ff"></font><b><font color="#6666ff">Templar</font> </b>- 2x L58 buffs and 1x L61 buff <ul><li><font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">1717 HP</font> on the MT and 873 on the group</font></li></ul><font color="#6666ff"><b>Inquisitor</b></font><font color="#6666ff"> </font>- 2x L58 buffs (L61 buff is a stamina buff) <ul><li><font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">1125 HP</font> on the MT and 281 on the group</font></li></ul><font color="#ffff99"></font><font color="#6666ff"><b>Defiler</b></font><font color="#6666ff"> </font>- 2x L58 buffs and 1x L60 buff <ul><li><font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">1701 HP</font> on the MT and 863 on the group</font></li></ul><font color="#6666ff"><b>Mystic</b></font> - 2x L58 buffs (L60 buff is a stamina buff + L65 marquee 17.5% HP and 17.5% atribute buff for 2 min power drain) <ul><li><font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">844 HP</font> on the MT and 281 on the group</font></li></ul><font color="#6666ff"><b>Warden</b></font> - 1x level 58 buff (other L 58 buff is the same as Aspect of the Hawk Wis / power buff, the L60 shamen buffs compare to our benediction of the wild Wis / Agi buff and the L61 buff in the cleric line is our Protection of the oak line where we have 214 magic resist and the templar has 592 HP buff, inquisitor has 70ish stamina)<ul><li> <font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">281 HP </font>on the MT and group</font></li></ul><font color="#6666ff"><b>Fury</b></font><font color="#6666ff"> </font>- 1x level 58 buff (other L 58 buff is the Int  / power buff see above for similar comparrisons) <ul><li><font color="#ffff00">= </font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">281 HP</font> on the MT and group</font></li></ul><font color="#ffff99">Edit: changed colours for an easier read</font><p>Message Edited by Rappy on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well pre AAs I believe there was some balance.  The way I believe they setup the system was to give us no hps buffs on purpose.</P> <P>We added next to no hps, but in exchange got faster casting heals.  We could pop off heals way faster then other healers before, but being able to time heals well is powerful so in exchange we got no hp buffs.  That's why I'm freaking out clerics can reduce their cast times so much, especially with that 8 point AA ability because they have NO cast times with it.  All semblance of balance is gone.</P> <P>We can also cast our heals more often then other healers too, with the exception of inquisators who could cast their heals just as often.  The only difference is the inquisator's heals are weighted with longer cast times and shorter recasts and us with shorter casts and longer recasts.  Now that inquisators can shortened their cast times they can flat out heal more often PLUS it's all upfront healing.</P>

[Rappy]

And there I was thinking our faster direct heals were there to offset the inferiority that the regen speciality heal has when measured against reactives and wards for burst damage.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

Nothing is balance, but unless warden try hard get things fix we will stay same. Their to few of us that care, or don't come and post. Some people want call other wardens cry babys like me cuase how unbalance thing got after expack. I never came to the forums untill i seen my lvl 65 spell that just set me off. I was look forward to new spells boost my defensive side of my warden, cuase thats were we are really weak. When i made one at the time i was told we were sec best healer all around, and things has change so much since then. At the time i was still to low lvl didn't see all the changes.and now i'm lvl 70 and do not feel our buffs are anywere close to other defensive healer or to that matter any healer!I'm no expert at eq2 , but we need people who are willing stand up help everone out, and that care see thing change for the better. Everone need get on same page, and try get things change. By next expack hit's we are not going be getting any heal upgrade but i think 1-2 the most. What we have now we will be useing to kill, and heal against 70-80 mobs.Just think if we are good at some points now how good will we be in next expack if nothing is changed?please Don't say (u don't know what next expack will bring us) cuase i heard that at lvl 60 before this one was out ><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 PM</span><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I partially finished the numbers.  I calculated the healing numbers over 1 minute (got lazy so didn't do 2 minutes) and came up with the following numbers:</P> <P>Warden:  38148</P> <P>Inquisator: 35527</P> <P>I didn't think we'd win... thought about the reason why as well and more about how we fit into the picture.  I then broke it down into the first 20 secs vs the last 40 secs:</P> <P>Warden:  11112</P> <P>Inquis:  8820</P> <P>Hum, so the remaining 40 secs looks like:</P> <P>Warden:  27036</P> <P>Inquis:  26707</P> <P>So from what I gather, with the bard passive spell haste along with the inquisator passive spell haste we heal relatively evenly once reactives have been put up.  With both a Warden and Inquisator going in naked Wardens get an edge because we can put our spells up faster giving us a lead at the beginning.  The reason I believe is the long cast time on their group reactive (4.2 secs).</P> <P>I also thought about my methodology.  If the mob hits every 2 secs then it's about even healing.  If the mob hits any faster then the inquis will heal more because the reactive will go off more often and if it hits less often then our healing will win because the hots will tick regardless contributing to more healing total.  Another thing is as more spell haste is added to the inquisator his numbers will go up more comparatively.  His cast times get futher reduced etc...</P> <P>Something else of note.  In my model there were 2 times our hot was recast before the duration had expired to max healing, plus there was also 2 times we lost a tick off our small heal because it was spam healed.  With spell haste when you spam heal your small hot the new spell hits before your last tick can go off cancelling it out.</P> <P>So from what I can see, we now heal evenly with an inquisator but it depends on the situation.  When things get hary and there might be lots of mobs, the cleric will pull his group through better then us.  If it's one mob that's strong (say a named) who hits slow we might have the advantage... in healing only.  This doesn't address the lopsided buffs in favor of any other class but solely healing potential.  We might also lose lots of our hots because the tank is full health etc..., but a cleric can also lose part of his direct heal in the same way.  The difference is the bulk of our healing is our hot.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 AM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

About real life healing numbers.  Anyone else having the experience that Inquisators are outhealing you by 30% min per raid now, or is that just me?  Can't figure out why, must be that he takes the solo reactive but I'm getting destroyed on the heal parse.

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>About real life healing numbers.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I wonder how people would react if they could actually see the numbers floating above my head as I walked to the grocery store...</FONT></P> <P>Anyone else having the experience that Inquisators are outhealing you by 30% min per raid now, or is that just me?  Can't figure out why, must be that he takes the solo reactive but I'm getting destroyed on the heal parse.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Our inq usually wins our healing parses but it depends on the mob.  Some are cleric friendly and some are druid friendly.  We'll soon see how shammies stack up going by LU23 test notes.</FONT></P> <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[slayerwarrior]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> About real life healing numbers.  Anyone else having the experience that Inquisators are outhealing you by 30% min per raid now, or is that just me?  Can't figure out why, must be that he takes the solo reactive but I'm getting destroyed on the heal parse.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well we did not have a  Inquisators in are raids, but they were letting the templar do parse healing never could get straight number.</P> <P>That was sec reason why i stop playing warden. </P> <P>A guy last night said wardens are great back up healer's! Not my waords, but words right out of another wardens mouth. Kind funny he was trying talk me in playing my warden again. I thought all healers were to be equal, but i have had few people say their are great back up healers. </P> <P>I guess that what wardens are to be back up healer's, and from looking at the way we work with are heals, and buff it very true.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Backup my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  We can heal fine all the time it's just that we have no role in raids because of poor buffs.</P> <P>About druids outhealing inquisators, you'd think so but maybe it's just my guild but those times when we should be winning I'm 5% behind min instead.  It's getting on my nerves ~</P>

[slayerwarrior]

ah u should not get upset. i just saying what been told to me that all. I really careless anymore about wardens or infact eq2 only thing devs know is how to nerf a char. Sry i just thought it was little funny on how guy was trying to get me play warden again, and what he said in telling me i should <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Should never get mad over a game such waste time when their are so many games play.o in raiding, and hard mobs we are best suited for backup healer ><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Just so u don't mis my point i never really try said are healing , but in are buff we our.<p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> mikemcmodmike wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>I believe when you look at the numbers solely ungrouped we are the best healer.  Hands down.  The problem is this expansion where they added AAs and bards with their group spell haste...  There are 4 things working against us:</p> <ol> <li>The troubador's ability Jester's cap reduces recast timers and cast times by 25%.  The description says more but it's currently not working correctly.  It's 25%.</li> <li>The int line of bards reduces group casting times by I believe, don't quote me on this, 10%.  </li> <li>The cleric AA that reduces their casting times as a passive buff</li> <li>The cleric ungodly 8 point ability that gets rid of all their casting times and reduces recast times.</li></ol> <p> </p><hr> <p></p></blockquote> <p>You forgot the shammy AA line that reduces cast and recast timers for a single player by 33%.  It used to be group only but was nerfed in LU21.  I don't think the templa version removes cast times just recast timers (I know thats what the description says but grouping with templars I don't have 0 cast timers so I think the description is backwards).</p> <p>Meanwhile all we get for 8 points is a <strong>self only</strong> anti-stun which rarely works.  Anyone who thinks our AA lines are balanced seriously needs to pay attention to the other priest AA lines.</p><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class="date_text">04-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:49 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Jester's Cap is working correctly, it is only people's inability to do understand math that prevents them from recognizing itThe Shaman AA is friend-only, and cannot be casted on self, has a recast of 3 minutes and only lasts 30 seconds.  It's alright, but not awesome.The Cleric AA is group based, HALVES the casting times of all spells (not all casting times, 100% means twice as fast, not 0 cast time), has a 5 minute recast and again, only lasts 30 seconds.</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Yea yea, found out about spell haste after.  It's cast time/1 + (spell haste multiple). </P> <P>About Tunare's Watch, who says it's useless?  I've found a great use.  For heroic opportunities to advance the eye symbol fast.  Who says it's useless now!</P>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote: <P>Backup my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  We can heal fine all the time it's just that we have no role in raids because of poor buffs.</P> <P>About druids outhealing inquisators, you'd think so but maybe it's just my guild but those times when we should be winning I'm 5% behind min instead.  It's getting on my nerves ~</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Someone did some text on way heals work with reactor/wards are first to be use then regens kicks in untill reactor/ward are up again. If am i wrong on this  please correct me. I add this i just thought about a text i read few weeks ago about how reactor/wards/regen work togather. </P> <P>In any case i still [Removed for Content] about that being said, but few people have said we were back up healer's. Please don't try use my playing ability in saying (it just me) I have people wanting me play hem again, but i will not untill our buff is bring up to par with other classes. </P> <P>Are buff is are weakest point right now, but this why they said we were great back up healers way are heals work with reactors and wards + are buffs.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:18 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[Crimson Dragon]

wardens are by no means a back-up <b>healer</b>.from all of the information i've seen, we parse better than any other priest as far as healing. this simple fact puts us as the best <b>healer</b> in the game. add on the regen proc from spores, which procs like a tiger trapped in a raquetball court with a bunch of midgets, and our wisdom and power buff to keep the tank trucking even longer, and there's no reason why we should be anywhere but the first group of any raid. uber buffs or not, you just can't let go of that extra umph.<div></div>

[slayerwarrior]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote: wardens are by no means a back-up <B>healer</B>. from all of the information i've seen, we parse better than any other priest as far as healing. this simple fact puts us as the best <B>healer</B> in the game. add on the regen proc from spores, which procs like a tiger trapped in a raquetball court with a bunch of midgets, and our wisdom and power buff to keep the tank trucking even longer, and there's no reason why we should be anywhere but the first group of any raid. uber buffs or not, you just can't let go of that extra umph. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never thought i was a back healer, but i have ran into alot people saying this  On my server bazaar it seems to be few people saying it.</P> <P> Parse part i never got see any numbers after kos  they were letting the templar do that, but someone has [Removed for Content] me off now i have nothing to do, but to  learn how to parse.  Only thing sucks i have very good friend in non raid guild wants start raiding more often, but on weekend >:/. She don't know how parse and wants me join so looks like i need learn anyways.</P> <P> </P> <P>I allways been a gamer never put numbers into how a char played in a game. In other games i was into pvp sorc could do 12k in a hit but take 2 hit kill a player. nerc could do 15k in 1 hit , but it take 1 hit's kill same player.  Now their was one advantage sorc had over the nerco i could tele around hem never get hit. Even tho he could out do me in damage 1 skill made me own hem that something u don't see on paper.</P><p>Message Edited by slayerwarrior on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>