What a nice surprise...

[Unmask]

<div>Logged in today and found my master 1 version of Winter's Sting was replaced with an App 1 version on my hotbar.  After a few tense moments I found out it was replaced by Solar Flame master 1.  It seems some of our cold nukes were replaced by heat nukes with no notice (at least none that I saw).  A lot of our lower level (sub 20) spells were also replaced, including our cures.  I have 2 questions:</div><div> </div><div>1. Why wasn't this in the patch notes?</div><div>2. Why was it done at all?</div>

[Kyralis]

It was done because they're on the Summer's Flame line, and they extended that line down to level 2 and then swapped all the higher level versions for flame based for consistency. It's a great change, IMO- now we can hit both cold and heat immune mobs.Now, as to why it wasn't in the patch notes, who knows?<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caerwyn wrote:It was done because they're on the Summer's Flame line, and they extended that line down to level 2 and then swapped all the higher level versions for flame based for consistency. It's a great change, IMO- now we can hit both cold and heat immune mobs.Now, as to why it wasn't in the patch notes, who knows?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Well I know what they did, the question is why and why now before the expansion - was it even on test?  Also having heat and cold nukes now means that while we can hit cold immune mobs a bit, we are also half as effective against heat immune mobs.  Not a big gain really.</p><p>P.S.  On a completely unrelated note, we had no open instances so we did SotL and Ven dropped a really nice mace for me (21 wis +7 ministration and +7 disruption among a bunch of other stats).  T6 loot is really awful compared with T5. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  The v2 prizz does look nice though if the stats from test carry over (at least the proc).</p>

[Unmask]

<div>Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kyralis]

Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?<div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?<div></div><hr></blockquote>aye our paly said he was gonna run around QH with consecrate on after the raids...  after lookin at the logs, thats the only friendy thing that hit the wolves (my AE's sure didn't)...  Clint got his spiffy belt from the raid too :smileyhappy: ...  then again he's the one that always says the best druid loot is mage only...

[matinisback]

<div>Wardens old buff moves looked cool but now it stinks  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but it still buff's good : )</div><div> </div>

[Yirabeth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?<div></div><hr></blockquote>While it sounds like the pallies have a spell that needs fixing (lol) it's also intended that the dumbfire pets (which the tree and the wolves fall under) to take aoe's put out by mobs now. A huge nerf for summoner classes when this is the majority of their dps (my alt is necro lol) and it's basically a graphical dot (I don't see other styles of player dots being aoe'able, nor do they have a tremendous recast time) On my necro, I just wish they'd turn those dumbfires into normal dots, although I have to admit I sure like my puppies, they're fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Imagine trying to place that tree behind a mob to (hopefully) avoid aoe's...tree isn't gonna follow the mob around like the puppies will if the encounter moves at all.Aside from that my other concern is the fact that the Winter's Sting line was made all heat, where it used to be some heat, some cold. There's very few cold resistant mobs in the game, and what there WAS you could switch out the fire based dd for your HO's (in solo play -- in (full) group play I'm too busy jamming heals to do dd anyway lol)  Now, there are ALOT of heat resistant mobs...this will significantly affect solo play, as if the mob is heat resistant you just won't find it very easy to complete an HO. Imagine heat resistant mob, leaving ONE spell to do an HO with, because you've already put the one dot you have on the mob...8 second recast time on hoarfrost...a fizzle, or a resist, and that HO will expire on you by the time you get a second shot of the flame line off.   Now granted I don't spend alot of time solo (next to none, it's just too yawn inspiring) but I do duo with a troubadour alot, so what damage I *can* do helps.  I view this as a nerf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So I guess it's intended but I have to wonder if they considered a change in DPS when putting some of these changes in <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (I guess other classes are gonna have lowered dps due to losing spell lines also, classes that are meant to be dps classes. Will be interesting to see if they address this or if it's 'working as intended')~Yira</span><div></div>

[Bratface]

<div></div><p>I don't know about you folks but my 55 Warden not only lost an ice nuke but the bug dot as well, and only got a fire nuke in exchange.</p><p>/em licks wounds from nerf stick</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caerwyn wrote:Yeah, T6 fabled is.... so very underwhelming.What's really funny about AEs now, though, is that the paladin AE consecrate hits *everything*. This includes other players, random mobs, *unattackable quest npcs*, etc. Everything. Maybe that was what was killing your wolves?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes that's the AE I noticed (dam dorf I knew he hated dogs).  I just assumed it was all AEs. :p

[Kyralis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yirabeth wrote:<span>While it sounds like the pallies have a spell that needs fixing (lol) it's also intended that the dumbfire pets (which the tree and the wolves fall under) to take aoe's put out by mobs now. A huge nerf for summoner classes when this is the majority of their dps (my alt is necro lol) and it's basically a graphical dot (I don't see other styles of player dots being aoe'able, nor do they have a tremendous recast time) On my necro, I just wish they'd turn those dumbfires into normal dots, although I have to admit I sure like my puppies, they're fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Imagine trying to place that tree behind a mob to (hopefully) avoid aoe's...tree isn't gonna follow the mob around like the puppies will if the encounter moves at all.<font color="#ff0000">The tree has always been hit by AEs, actually- it never had that immunity. It's a detriment to the wolves, yes, but I think in many situations it'll merely make us time their usage better in a raid situation.</font>Aside from that my other concern is the fact that the Winter's Sting line was made all heat, where it used to be some heat, some cold. There's very few cold resistant mobs in the game, and what there WAS you could switch out the fire based dd for your HO's (in solo play -- in (full) group play I'm too busy jamming heals to do dd anyway lol)  Now, there are ALOT of heat resistant mobs...this will significantly affect solo play, as if the mob is heat resistant you just won't find it very easy to complete an HO. Imagine heat resistant mob, leaving ONE spell to do an HO with, because you've already put the one dot you have on the mob...8 second recast time on hoarfrost...a fizzle, or a resist, and that HO will expire on you by the time you get a second shot of the flame line off.   Now granted I don't spend alot of time solo (next to none, it's just too yawn inspiring) but I do duo with a troubadour alot, so what damage I *can* do helps.  I view this as a nerf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#ff0000">They also removed immunities from a lot of mobs with this update. Also, other than lavastorm, I can't say that I really know of many heat resistant mobs at all, to be honest, outside of a raid situation</font>So I guess it's intended but I have to wonder if they considered a change in DPS when putting some of these changes in <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (I guess other classes are gonna have lowered dps due to losing spell lines also, classes that are meant to be dps classes. Will be interesting to see if they address this or if it's 'working as intended')<font color="#ff0000">I think you're viewing something as far more of a nerf than it actually is. The wolf change will impact us, definitely, and that's annoying. But I bet in 95% of the situations you encounter, the cold->heat change won't have any impact at all.</font>~Yira</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bratface wrote:<div></div><p>I don't know about you folks but my 55 Warden not only lost an ice nuke but the bug dot as well, and only got a fire nuke in exchange.</p><p>/em licks wounds from nerf stick</p><hr></blockquote>The reason you lost he bug dot is because it's on the same line as the cold nuke was and that entire line has been changed to a heat nuke as it should be. You didn't really lose anything since that dot was always linked to the cold nuke and I don't see why you want to cast the dot anyway as its effects as a level 19 dot are negligible at 55 and you have an upgrade to it anyway (winter's bite or what's now solar burn)

[Treve]

<div></div><p>well...the funny side of the story is this</p><p>i logged on late in the afternoon yesterday and noticed that my winter's sting was gone and i had this new unheard of spell...i thought it was a bug...so i asked in the lvl50-59 and lvl60 channels whether any of the other wardens were missing winter's sting</p><p>2 of them said tthat nothing had changed for them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Treve]

<div>well...this gets weirder all the time</div><div> </div><div>i sent a /petition yesterday because I didn't know where the spell had gone...i have a response back from a GM saying no spells were changed above lvl20</div><div> </div><div>in any event, is the dmg on the new heat spell the same as the old cold-based one?</div>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div>Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>You CAN rename your pets..but it goes something like this...:</p><p>type /petname <name>   Battle starts, Plant tree, cast a regen, type /petname <name>, Sic dogs on the mob (now differently named)....cast Tunare's watch, cause we all know how helpful that is for bringing the MT back from Near Death which has occured cause you were busy renaming your 2nd pet......heal your butt off cause you wanted your pets to have unique names....</p><p>/curtsey</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Arielle Nightshade wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div>Oh and I think our dogs can be killed by friendly AEs once again. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>What's amusing is that if we name our pet all pets have that name, including the tree and our dogs.  Can be quite humorous. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>You CAN rename your pets..but it goes something like this...:</p><p>type /petname   Battle starts, Plant tree, cast a regen, type /petname , Sic dogs on the mob (now differently named)....cast Tunare's watch, cause we all know how helpful that is for bringing the MT back from Near Death which has occured cause you were busy renaming your 2nd pet......heal your butt off cause you wanted your pets to have unique names....</p><p>/curtsey</p><hr></blockquote>nothing to see in the above post Clint...  hes gonna try this tonight just to spite me now :smileysad:

[Unmask]

<div></div>Don't worry - the more critters named Smellytot I can summon the better.

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Treveur wrote:<div>well...this gets weirder all the time</div><div> </div><div>i sent a /petition yesterday because I didn't know where the spell had gone...i have a response back from a GM saying no spells were changed above lvl20</div><div> </div><div>in any event, is the dmg on the new heat spell the same as the old cold-based one?</div><hr></blockquote><p>I think the dmg is the same, but not sure..</p><p>from old post on my guild's forums (by me):</p><p>Winter's Sting (m1):455-557 cold dmg2s cast, 3s recast81 power</p><p>From looking at my screen now:</p><p>475-580 heat dmg</p><p>But I know my int has gone up since that post, but I was a ditz and didn't put what my int was when I made the post with the numbers... so... idk lol if 30-40 more int would make that kind of difference in dmg, there ya go heh idk what the int mod is</p>

[BWShellShocked]

<div></div><p>I lost or had downgraded on me, 4 spells as a 60 Warden.</p><p>Weakness (lvl 7): Lost , meaning I bought at Adept III, but now it shows in hotbar as App I, but is not in book, nor is it "clickable"Provoking Swarm (lvl 17): Lost, meaning icon still in hotbar as App I, but not in book, and is not "clickable", which I had bought at Adept IIIWintry Cold (lvl 51): Downgraded, which I had bought at Adept III, is now App IWinter's Sting (lvl 59): Downgraded, meaning I had bought it at Master I, but now it is only App I</p><p>And in return, I receive a replacement for my existing Summer's Flame, also purchased at Adept III, now called Solar Flame, but at least its Master.</p><p>So, I lost or had downgraded 4 spells that I frequently use, and get one "new" spell, which is nearly identical to one I already had,  but with a new name as a replacement?</p><p>What about the plat I spent buying rares, and getting them made to Adept III and the 12pp I spent buying the Master I drop?</p>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BWShellShocked wrote:<div></div><p>I lost or had downgraded on me, 4 spells as a 60 Warden.</p><p>Weakness (lvl 7): Lost , meaning I bought at Adept III, but now it shows in hotbar as App I, but is not in book, nor is it "clickable"Provoking Swarm (lvl 17): Lost, meaning icon still in hotbar as App I, but not in book, and is not "clickable", which I had bought at Adept IIIWintry Cold (lvl 51): Downgraded, which I had bought at Adept III, is now App IWinter's Sting (lvl 59): Downgraded, meaning I had bought it at Master I, but now it is only App I</p><p>And in return, I receive a replacement for my existing Summer's Flame, also purchased at Adept III, now called Solar Flame, but at least its Master.</p><p>So, I lost or had downgraded 4 spells that I frequently use, and get one "new" spell, which is nearly identical to one I already had,  but with a new name as a replacement?</p><p>What about the plat I spent buying rares, and getting them made to Adept III and the 12pp I spent buying the Master I drop?</p><hr></blockquote><p>i'm not sure about the sub-lvl50 spells (you still use those??), but Winter's Sting was replaced with Solar Flame and should be of the same level (app1/m1, etc.) as Winter's Sting was</p><p>winter's sting is not really "nearly identical" to Solar Flame - one is cold-based, the new one is heat-based</p><p>wintry cold was not modified at all to my knowledge</p>

[BWShellShocked]

<div></div><p>The lower level spells (Weakness and Provoking Swarm) I still use, because there was no higher level replacement for them and they worked.  Weakness I use all the time.  Provoking swarm I didn't use often, but it did come in handy when LOM and I needed just a tiny bit more DPS to take down a mob.</p><p>By near identical, I was referring to Summer's Flame, which I had pre-LU19, and now is called Solar Flare.</p><p>The other two, were not replaced with same grade, so hopefully this is a bug that will be addressed via my /petition?</p><p>What ticks me off most about all of this though, is that I had just had those spells upgraded over the last 2 weeks.  I knew LU19 was coming out, and so I constantly checked the test notes, to see if Priest/Druid/Warden spells would be affected at all.</p><p>Had there been even an inkling in test notes that hinted at changes to my spell lines were coming, I would have held off, but seeing nothing at all besides our Nature's Ally mentioned in any of the test notes, I felt that it was safe to go ahead and upgrade them.</p><p>Even the LU19 patch notes, make no mention whatsoever, about any of these changes.  That's what bothers me the most.  I'm far from rich, and the 15 or so plat I spent upgrading those spells, is a huge blow to my wallet.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BWShellShocked wrote:<div></div><p>The lower level spells (Weakness and Provoking Swarm) I still use, because there was no higher level replacement for them and they worked.  Weakness I use all the time.  Provoking swarm I didn't use often, but it did come in handy when LOM and I needed just a tiny bit more DPS to take down a mob.</p><p>By near identical, I was referring to Summer's Flame, which I had pre-LU19, and now is called Solar Flare.</p><p>The other two, were not replaced with same grade, so hopefully this is a bug that will be addressed via my /petition?</p><p>What ticks me off most about all of this though, is that I had just had those spells upgraded over the last 2 weeks.  I knew LU19 was coming out, and so I constantly checked the test notes, to see if Priest/Druid/Warden spells would be affected at all.</p><p>Had there been even an inkling in test notes that hinted at changes to my spell lines were coming, I would have held off, but seeing nothing at all besides our Nature's Ally mentioned in any of the test notes, I felt that it was safe to go ahead and upgrade them.</p><p>Even the LU19 patch notes, make no mention whatsoever, about any of these changes.  That's what bothers me the most.  I'm far from rich, and the 15 or so plat I spent upgrading those spells, is a huge blow to my wallet.</p><hr></blockquote><p>/agreed.  This happened in the Combat Revamp, and happened here.  Same issue you had - no mention at all that these changes would be made.  Spells that were Adept III were overwritten to App 1 or adept 1.   </p><p>These changes, plus..either we were stealth nerfed or the mobs were stealth beefed up...cause writ mobs prior to this were comfortably do-able..now I find them 'a fight'.   The Roost, for example, where we go for some fast xp (lord knows we don't go there for the loot)...used to be a casual, fun hour or two.  Now we are getting the sit kicked out of us.  </p><p>Wish they would stop 'fixing' stuff that isn't broken ..and really fix the stuff that IS.</p>

[Bratface]

<div></div><p>IMO, and everyone plays differently, I lost more than I *gained*, I had weakness, bug dot, ice nuke and fire nuke, and i get a fire nuke with a new name...</p><p>While others may not use older spells I happen to use them often, every little bit helps and I always used every little bit I had, now I have much less.</p><p>Everything I lost was ad3, and I got an ad1 replacement spell for all that I lost, while to uber players and raiders it may not seem like a big deal, it is to us mere average players.</p>

[Nan]

I have posted elsewhere on these forums (yeah, I know, so /Flame off, please) but I, for one, used my Master I Provoking Swarm in conjunction with Wintry Cold Adept I in a HO.  Now I cannot do that because SoE, decided to remove one of our DoTs and not replace it with another. As for Summer's Flame, I still have my Master II Summer's Flame as well as Solar Burn Adept I, but they don't stack.  I could stack my DoTs and then stack Hoarfrost Master II and Winter's Bite Adept 1.  That double HO would net me over 2K damage per round (not counting melee damage).   Now, because I can only stack one spell  line, my double HO round is no more and I lose anywhere from  30% to 50% of my DPS.I do NOT belong to a guild and haven't grouped since I died near Splitpaw ZI (before it was Splitpaw) and grouped with high levels for a corpse run to avoid aggro from Giants and Gnolls.Addendum:  While I like the fact that we have two elemental lines of Nukes (now with more than one spell per line), there was NO reason whatsoever for SoE to remove an entire type of spell (Swarm).   So I propose the following solution.   Please add a Disease- or Poison-based Damage-over-Time spell that stacks with  Chill, Wintry Cold, etc.Nanoc MajicBlade the Loyal54 WardenMistmoore Server<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.</p><p>Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.</p>

[Treve]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><p> I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.</p><hr></blockquote>i agree...i think this was a change a while back...it used to make no difference which matching spell you used for the HO...but i think it is now  *damage input increases the damage output*-...so using a low-lvl spell to complete a HO would produce a low damage result

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>Even without the HO bonus, using the 45 nuke instead of the 19 dot would be better because they were on the same timer so in essence it's a question of choosing to use a lvl 19 spell or its lvl 45 upgrade.. obviously the higher lvlled one is going to do more damage; that's why it's an upgrade.

[Unmask]

<div></div><p></p><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<p>We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.</p><p>Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.</p><hr><p>Regardless of whatether we can adapt or not, it is inexcusable that this late in the game they are still making significant changes to the game without bothering to explain or even acknowledge them.  There was no reason for the change to occur in LU19 (it was supposed to be in for beta and even there it's a big stretch to say it's of any calue).  Frankly I'm tired of having to spend so much time every LU trying to find out what they changed to my spells, abilities and UI that they "forgot" to mention.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div></div><p></p><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<p>We have the exact same number of spell lines as we did before; there is NO need for a new spell line to be added.  You just have to use the heat nuke (which you should have been using anyway) to HO with.. Wintry cold, then solar burn for 1 ho then hoarfrost and solar burn for the second. The heat nuke line has the same reacst as swarm did (because it IS what we got as upgrades to the swarm line, it's just less confusing now) so you have not lost any spells at all. If you want that swarm line and to ho with mainly dots, you need to go make a fury; wardens aren't the dotters, we're the nukers.</p><p>Why don't you go try it before you complain about it? I can guarantee you that using your lvl 45 nuke to HO with instead of a lvl 19 dot will net you better damage.</p><hr><p>Regardless of whatether we can adapt or not, it is inexcusable that this late in the game they are still making significant changes to the game without bothering to explain or even acknowledge them.  There was no reason for the change to occur in LU19 (it was supposed to be in for beta and even there it's a big stretch to say it's of any calue).  Frankly I'm tired of having to spend so much time every LU trying to find out what they changed to my spells, abilities and UI that they "forgot" to mention.</p><hr></blockquote><p>/agreed with Clint....there's a very fine line between keeping the game fresh..and messing with us.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Everytime they do a change like this..it seems we lose more than we have gained from the change.  This one, in particular, 'feels' like...a change for change's sake - not because what they have given us (at higher levels anyway..can't speak for the sweeping revamp of under 20) is  so wonderful it's worth losing spell upgrades over.</p><p>Besides..every 'beneficial' change is not beneficial until 3 months later (maybe) when they finally get around to addressing the bugs, issues, and problems with the new 'cool' change that they didn't fix initially. </p><p>I truly am all for a constantly evolving art form here...a virtual world such as Norrath is pretty awesome when you think about what goes into making it.   However, 'constantly evolving' is not the same thing as 'change for no good reason'.</p><p>If there IS a good reason for it..then..back to my pettest peeve:  Lack of good communication.  </p>

[Kyralis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Arielle Nightshade wrote:<div></div><p>This one, in particular, 'feels' like...a change for change's sake - not because what they have given us (at higher levels anyway..can't speak for the sweeping revamp of under 20) is  so wonderful it's worth losing spell upgrades over.</p><p>Besides..every 'beneficial' change is not beneficial until 3 months later (maybe) when they finally get around to addressing the bugs, issues, and problems with the new 'cool' change that they didn't fix initially.</p><hr></blockquote>I'm happy to complain when I think there are complaints that need to be made, but in this case, I just disagree. Let's see what happened during this update.1) The entire Summer's Flame line became heat-based. This makes more sense, seeing as how it started out heat based. Since they extended it in down to level 2 with the early-game update, it makes sense to go ahead and make the heat-based change now. No spell upgrades were lost: if you had Master 1 Winter's Sting, you have Master 1 Solar Flame. So now we have both a heat and a cold nuke instead of just cold. No downsides at the high levels, unless you count the fact that Provoking Swarm turned into a part of this line of spells. Given that I haven't cast that spell in months anyway (defense has been pointless post-LU13 anyway), I fail to see the enormous loss here.2) Our weakness debuff became an early root. Since we're talking about a gigantic 14pt str debuff here- I again fail to see the enormous loss.I'll be the first to tell you that some of the LU13 changes broke our class for two months. But, since LU13, the following major changes have been made, barring bug-fixes like the tree's range:1) HoTs were fixed.2) Direct Heals were fixed.3) HG was fixed.4) Wolves have been played with a few times.These are not sweeping changes every update, as has been implied. With the exception of some of the wolf changes (limited pets getting hit by AEs is ridiculous IMO), they've been beneficial bug fixes. Sure, it took them a while, but I'm glad most of them finally happened.There are plenty of things in EQ2 left to complain about. The LU19 changes don't, IMO, warrant that status.</span><div></div>

[Yirabeth]

I agree change is needed to keep the game fresh. I'll also agree that I'm starting to get tired of all the changes..I'm coming to dread the Live Updates. True, this last one didn't hurt me too much (minor pangs..but still pangs. On my warden and my necro both) Some of the changes from this update I gladly welcome.  I'll even go so far as to say the change was NEEDED. Levels 1-20 were a drag and a real hindrance to creating a new character --- 20-30 levels to find you just can't stand playing that particular class?(that's how long it took to get to the meat of the class, to see if you'd actually LIKE it...) But it's starting to seem like each new Live Update means a whole new game...I hope they hurry up and get done making wide sweeping changes and let us just play the game.I'm starting to worry that the character that's just "perfect" for me will be something I can't stand in the next update. When do the wide sweeping game changing updates end? It's been over a year, and within the month two expansions.   You should know what works and what doesn't, by now. LU13 was supposed to be the FIX for what was wrong in the game. Enough is enough already, please!Change for the sake of change isn't really going to keep the game fresh (unless by fresh they mean an entire new player base) Hurry up and finish making the huge changes --- it's getting a bit much even for  loyal diehard eq2 fans.~Yira<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>I still don't see what the big deal is... the biggest changes were made to the 1-20 game, and they were GOOD changes that had no effect on the higher lvls other than having lower lvl versions of their current spell lines changed to match the high lvl versions; yes I realize we had our second cold nuke line changed but I've been wanting a high level heat nuke ever since I outgrew summer's flame months ago and I can't imagine I'm really the only one who wanted that, and I'm actually one of the people who /feedback'ed on test that the rest of the line should be changed to heat if they're going to give the new low level warden a heat nuke instead of cold. If someone here really did lose a master spell by having it replaced with an app1 or something instead of a master version of the changed spell, then petition it because that was not supposed to happen. But honestly in the long run it really shouldn't matter unless you're like my guild leader and like to collect masters for the sake of collection.</p><p>Have any of you that are complaining about these "sweeping changes" actually played in the new 1-20 game? it's awesome now. Me and my guild leader went and made chars on test server to see how it was and they have truly made those levels fun to play in. </p><p>Ever hear of making a mountain out of a molehill?</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><p>Have any of you that are complaining about these "sweeping changes" actually played in the new 1-20 game? it's awesome now. Me and my guild leader went and made chars on test server to see how it was and they have truly made those levels fun to play in. </p><p>Ever hear of making a mountain out of a molehill?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I just don't see how some people can get so offended by some of us trying to hold the devs accountable for their lack of communication here.  I logged in to LU19 right in time for our raids and spent half the night trying to fix my UI, some of it unsuccessfully, and I did not have a custom UI.  Information from the patch notes would have made most things a lot easier (except for the extremely annoying mousewheel thing which I can't seem to turn off).  But who cares right?  We have a heat nuke now.  Yay.</p><p>I'm happy for you that the 1-20 game is "awesome" but I am tired of trying to fish out all the stealth changes the devs make every LU though this one is more specific to wardens.  I still have no idea why they changed all the cures.  I wonder how many wipes that one caused.</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Caerwyn wrote:<span>1) The entire Summer's Flame line became heat-based. <strong>This makes more sense</strong>, seeing as how it started out heat based. Since they extended it in down to level 2 with the early-game update, it makes sense to go ahead and make the heat-based change now. No spell upgrades were lost: if you had Master 1 Winter's Sting, you have Master 1 Solar Flame. So now we have both a heat and a cold nuke instead of just cold. No downsides at the high levels, unless you count the fact that Provoking Swarm turned into a part of this line of spells. </span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">Or they could have renamed it Summer's Breeze and kept the line cold based without changing everything else.  Or they could have left it alone until the next expansion.  Those would have made far more sense.  How on earth does changing it now, unannounced, make any sense at all?  Was this even on test?  Considering that the spell isn't a 1-20 spell, changing it now is, to me, incredibly bizarre.</font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">If they want to change the 1-20 game then fine but make the 1-20 game look like the 21-60 game and not the other way around!</font></span><span></p></span><p><span>Given that I haven't cast that spell in months anyway (defense has been pointless post-LU13 anyway), I fail to see the enormous loss here.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffff00">So if it doesn't affect your character it's not a bad change?  I guess every warden in the game is level 60... :p</font></span></p><p><span>These are not sweeping changes every update, as has been implied. With the exception of some of the wolf changes (limited pets getting hit by AEs is ridiculous IMO), they've been beneficial bug fixes. Sure, it took them a while, but I'm glad most of them finally happened.<font color="#ffff00">Sweeping?  No.  Significant?  Yes, though mainly to the UI and for me it's the last straw - I canceled my subscription earlier but was thinking abut uncanceling (I did not want to play an expansion with a new level cap so soon after DoF) but not after this.  At least LU 13 gave us a full accounting for what spells changed (not that I was happy about that either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  Personally I have no interest in heat nukes.  I don't remember many, if any threads asking for an entire line to be heat based.  So you might think it makes sense but the logic is completely lost on me.  By the way, when did you realize you had to change your cures?</font></span></p><p><span>There are plenty of things in EQ2 left to complain about. The LU19 changes don't, IMO, warrant that status.</span></p><p><font color="#ffff00">You have to realize that the biggest problem I have is that there were, and still are, no patch notes mentioning any of this. I am surprised that you don't find that to be a problem.  I don't want to worry about what changes they made that I haven't found yet.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">P.S.  I did use weakness once in a while.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><p>yes I realize we had our second cold nuke line changed but I've been wanting a high level heat nuke ever since I outgrew summer's flame months ago and I can't imagine I'm really the only one who wanted that,</p><hr></blockquote>I much preferred 2 cold nukes to 1 of each.  I haven't used a heat nuke in over a year and really didn't miss it.  The only time I ever used it since my early days was my daily fight against Makuto - I even made a macro for it.  But I haven't noticed an outpouring on the message boards wanting it changed.  This was purely cosmetic and you'd think the devs have more important things to do - like actually fixing broken classes (and you'd think it would be the same devs involved too).  Us dogs got fixed enough! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Spag]

<div></div><p>Wow you are truely unhappy with this change.  I recall months ago many people complaining that we did not continue to receive upgrades for a heat based DD.  Personally it does not matter much to me, but you can never make everybody happy. </p><p>Then again, I would have to agree that it is something that should have been communicated.</p>

[Unmask]

<div>I'm not unhappy with the game itself really but the devs.  Does it really matter if a DD is heat or cold?  Not really.  It make very little difference in fact.  Which is why making the change now just seems so bizarre to me.  If I recall correctly some people did want the heat line to continue with the expansion/combat changes.  That's where those changes belong and not in some random update.</div><div> </div><div>Regarding the spell changes their stated goal was to change each class so that at the beginning it felt like that class through every level.  I don't know what they did with the other classes, but with wardens, they did the exact opposite, changing 21-60 to fit in with the changes they made to 1-20.</div><div> </div><div>Think about it in this context.  Because of the changes they made to 1-20 they changed the spell recipes for 1-20 and decided to make them in the new style of the expansion - that is without components.  OK I can understand that.  Did they also change all the sage recipes so that there is now a solar flame recipe at app 4 and adept 3?  While adept1s and master 1s were discovered, no app2-4 and no adept 3 was discovered so it seems the answer is no.</div><div> </div><div>Don't you think that's a problem?</div>

[Kyralis]

The lack of correct patch notes is definitely a problem. It also affected the sudden change to noting whether or not an encounter is "epic", which is not a change I at all support. Complaining about the lack of communication is defintely valid.With the heat/cold issue, they chose to change two spells (Winter's Bite, Winter's Sting) rather than a single one (Summer's Flame). I support that change. I agree it should have been announced, but I think the change is a positive one. And for what it's worth, the change did tested before going live.It seems like you're using this as a catalyst to complain about other things. If that's true, that's fine, but don't jumble the issue. If you want to complain about a lack of communication, complain about that. If you want to complain about the manner in which something changed (the whole hotbar changes thing, old icons didn't actually go away/weren't automagically changed into the new spell), that's fine. But complaining specifically about the fact that the line changed to all heat is, at least in my own opinion, warrantless.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><div></div><p></p><hr>Caerwyn wrote:It seems like you're using this as a catalyst to complain about other things. If that's true, that's fine, but don't jumble the issue. If you want to complain about a lack of communication, complain about that. If you want to complain about the manner in which something changed (the whole hotbar changes thing, old icons didn't actually go away/weren't automagically changed into the new spell), that's fine. But complaining specifically about the fact that the line changed to all heat is, at least in my own opinion, warrantless.<hr><p>The thread title says it all.  There are a lot of things this patch changed, whether you want to see it or not.  All of it is a surprise to me.  It should also be obvious that there were more effects from the patch that I didn't find at the time I made the thread.  But if you want to argue that I should have known about it all, I guess that's fine too.  Like I said, having a heat vs cold DD really makes no difference.  Making the change, now, out of the blue, is, at least in my own opinion, bizarre.  You haven't yet convinced me why it was so important to put it in now considering the potential changes like this have to screw up other areas of the game.  I wonder if sages can make those spells.  Perhaps the spell changes are a surprise to our TS dev as well?  Time will tell.</p><p>P.S. The one exception that I can think of is the mousewheel thing.  At least they announced that though that the UI cmmand to change it back didn't work for me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:58 AM</span></p>

[Spag]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Unmasked wrote:<div> </div><div>Did they also change all the sage recipes so that there is now a solar flame recipe at app 4 and adept 3?  While adept1s and master 1s were discovered, no app2-4 and no adept 3 was discovered so it seems the answer is no.</div><div> </div><div>Don't you think that's a problem?</div><hr></blockquote>Absolutely.  Though I guess I have come to expect it.  My sage is a waste of time and money, and treated as such. 

[sliderhouserules]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Caerwyn wrote:The lack of correct patch notes is definitely a problem. It also affected the sudden change to noting whether or not an encounter is "epic", which is not a change I at all support. Complaining about the lack of communication is defintely valid.With the heat/cold issue, they chose to change two spells (Winter's Bite, Winter's Sting) rather than a single one (Summer's Flame). I support that change. I agree it should have been announced, but I think the change is a positive one. And for what it's worth, the change did tested before going live.It seems like you're using this as a catalyst to complain about other things. If that's true, that's fine, but don't jumble the issue. If you want to complain about a lack of communication, complain about that. If you want to complain about the manner in which something changed (the whole hotbar changes thing, old icons didn't actually go away/weren't automagically changed into the new spell), that's fine. But complaining specifically about the fact that the line changed to all heat is, at least in my own opinion, warrantless.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree, this seems like a complain-for-the-sake-of-complaining thread. There's a valid beef concerning lack of update notes, but the OP doesn't seem to be giving any weight to the desire for consistency. They decided to revamp a spell line to make it more consistent, and since it was inconsistent all the way up, they went for complete consistency and just redid the whole line. This was a good thing to do IMO. No need to wait for KoS or LU20. Some dev is reworking spells 1-20 and notices the whole line is inconsistent... go ahead and spend the little bit of time it'll take to just redo the whole line (just don't forget to put your changes in the update notes!).</span></div><p>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:31 PM</span></p>

[Bratface]

<div></div><p>Wow, not only can people not be unhappy abotu the changes, they can't even say so around here without getting criticized.</p><p>Personally I am not happy about the loss, why couldn't they have upgraded my dot, debuff AND my heat nuke, and not have me short of a spell, why did something have to be taken away, dot, debuff, ice and heat nuke all traded for one nuke, I know the ubers never saw a use for the dot but I used it all the time, put two dots on with HO then nuke with HO's and I have the dots ticking away while I am nuking, it wasn't a waste *to me* the non-uber raider, unllike the ubers who shelved it long ago, and judgements about whether or not I should have even been using it are just that, judgements.</p><p>I want to be able to have dots ticking away WHILE I can cast nukes, the loss is a mystery to me, why not just upgrade what we had, it isn't like we are DPS machines anyway.</p><p>And not even giving it the coutesy of a mention anywhere is an insult, but nothing new. I am sure that those who think SOE never does anything wrong will disagree, but oh well.</p>

[Treve]

<p>not communicating the changes with the patch notes was a mistake...there's no doubt about it...it made me scramble a bit when i first logged on to figure out what was going on with all the spell upgrade messages</p><p>and yes, the cure thing was the same issue</p><p>i don't want to speculate, but maybe a last-minute decision was made to change the tree because of the spell changes coming in KoS...in any event, the changes have been made...the topic says it all and i think if some players don't like the actual changes that were, it would be better to start a new thread</p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><div></div><p>If you're having mouse wheel issues: go into options. Under controls, expand the moevement keys list. Scroll down to Auto Run (toggle). On the box after the word "or" click it and hit the delete button. Save the changes and close the window. Now repeat those steps and it should take care of the mouse wheel auto-run (and yes you have to do it twice or it won't work and you'll still auto-run with mouse wheel button).</p><p>Is it messed up you have to go through all that and the way they say to fix it doesn't work? yup but it's fixable, and complaining about the new heat line won't help the issue of the devs not doing good update notes.</p><p>For the person talking about the swarm dot thing.. I'm not saying it's useless because I'm some uber leet player with all masters and crap (yes I am a raider and do have a ton of masters etc); I'm saying it's useless because you got an UPGRADE to it and that UPGRADE will do more dmg than the dot does. Try using it and if you miss that lvl 19 spell so much, why don't you use the new version of it? Or if you REALLY want that dot so bad, make a fury because that is THEIR spell line and always has been. And the reason the devs didn't give us an upgrade to the dot, debuff and ice nuke on top of making a new heat nuke line was because that would require adding 3 entirely new lines and extending the ice line down from lvl 45 which would then overpower us in comparison to the other priests who get those lines anyway (weakness = cleric line dot = fury line and the ice nuke was just plain supposed to be heat from the start or the devs would have given the new 1-20 warden ice instead of heat).</p><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:57 PM</span></p>

[Faithes]

Maybe we will need heat spells for the new expansion.<div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>If you're having mouse wheel issues: go into options. Under controls, expand the moevement keys list. Scroll down to Auto Run (toggle). On the box after the word "or" click it and hit the delete button. Save the changes and close the window. Now repeat those steps and it should take care of the mouse wheel auto-run (and yes you have to do it twice or it won't work and you'll still auto-run with mouse wheel button).</p><p>Is it messed up you have to go through all that and the way they say to fix it doesn't work? yup but it's fixable, and complaining about the new heat line won't help the issue of the devs not doing good update notes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks.  The day the LU came out the autorun keys for me were NUMLOCK or SCROLL LOCK and it didn't matter what I did, the mouse wheel caused me to run.  My mouse was actually having problems lately so that I needed to adjust the mousewheel fairly often (and sent me off to the races after the LU).  I just got a new mouse and logged in today (wasn't online over the weekend) and was able to fix it as the autorun key was bound to the mouse wheel and I was able to delete it.  I don't know if the problem was caused by my mouse or a hotfix (the rest of my guild was having similar problems I believe) but I'm glad it works now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have to say that was just so annoying.  When they make UI changes at least leave the defaults the way they are. :p</p><p>Anyway like I've been saying, it's not so much that it was changed to a heat line that bothered me but the timing.  If a spell dev changes a spell's name and the TS dev doesn't know to make the necessary changes to the sage recipe books there's a problem that wouldn't normally exist during a major update like an expansion.  Per dev posts, the TS dev was only making changes to 1-19 sage/jeweler/alchemist books for LU19 but not to 20+ books until LU20/KoS.  So while I can't say for sure, it's seems that these 20+ spells that were changed were not altered in their respective recipe books.  Since Solar Burn and Solar Flame app2-4 and adept 3 recipes still have not been discovered, I find that as reasonable evidence that the recipes weren't added (can anyone confirm?). </p><p>These are the sorts of problems that are avoided when waiting for the major update window to make changes like this.</p>

[Feltrak]

<div>weakness is a cleric spell and the bug dot was a fury spell. only reason we got them was because of the archetype/class setup pre 20.</div><div> </div><div>I /bugged the heat nuke upgrading to a cold nuke a year ago about 20 million times. Hey they listened to me only took a year <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[TimidMou]

<div></div>I like the heat line bec it means we aren't totally hosed when it comes to cold-resist mobs, but its a tradeoff bec. now our cold debuff only affect 2 out of 3 damage spell lines.

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>Cold debuff is actually elemental which includes both heat and cold so we're not affected in that regard ;P