The new HG

[Barand]

Warden changes: <b> - Hierophantic Genesis had its initial power cost reduced. It also grants a small amount of power recovery over time to the recipient. </b> - Winds of Frost had its power cost increased to be more appropriate for the amount of damage it deals. - The healing effects of Protecting Grove will now match the range indicated on the spell. Has someone already check that spell on test ? Does it cost now only some power on launch and the give power over time ? Also thanks for Protecting grove <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Oll]

Aww Winds of Frost is my main damage spell lol, does 200 more than the frost attack .. but uh yeah good otherwise <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Ollaw on <span class=date_text>12-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 AM</span>

[Golembes]

<DIV>I think they mean to say it only costs a small amount of power to cast and then in addition to healing, the target of the spell (not the warden) will gain power recovery over the duration of the spell.</DIV>

[Fingolfin2]

<P>I dont have a high level toon on test, but here it is at app2</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="http://www.genesis-eq2.net/images/HG.jpg"></P>

[Spag]

<DIV>Sweet we can manafeed.</DIV>

[kenji]

the balance between Warden and Fury has done so well. heh

[Formangenavn]

<DIV>Not sure what this will look like at add3, but will this added power regen be usefull? I mean, in a realy long fight people might go oop, but in those cases you would probably need to heal mt, atleast to some extent. So I only see this spell used on mt. This might be a good thing if mt needs power for taunts to hold aggro, but unless that is the case I wouldnt use my power to boost a low dps tank (relatively speaking). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not either make it a realy good heal with high hp/sec or a nearly free heal but smaller for those oop moments?</DIV>

[Shennr]

I see possibly some cases in using this spell. In Poets Palace the Return a lot of the Djinn names have a wipe to power on their target. The MT needs just that little bit of power every once in a while to maintain aggro and sometimes his in combat regens are not enough. This spell would allow me to heal the MT (minimally) while giving him the power he needs to attain a few more taunts. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, looking at the app 2 and knowing how much healing increase the app 2 up to the master 1 does I would say that a master 1 regens about 44 power every 2 seconds. That is 836 power in the course of 36 seconds.  The average MT in our raids has I believe at least 4k power.  Don't really know how many spells can be cast with 836 power for fighter classes but I guess I'll find out when this LU goes live.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shennron on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Ebarel]

<P>it doesnt solve the issue with this spell at all.</P> <P>This is one of the signature spelll for a Warden, for those without DoF, it is their final spell, someting special.... It does heal less than having the hot and adding some DH with no significant less manacost. But with the cost of a stun, making it impossible to do anything else, be out of range if tank makes a single step. With lvl 50+ spells it gets even worthless </P> <P>And who do you want to use it on? A warden is never in the MT group nowadays as he has nothing to offer for that MT-group.  And its group only, not raid.</P> <P>I really liked and used that spell in raids pre-DoF (when wardens were in MT group). Due to its low power it was MTs lifesaver in some long and heavy battles. It delivered significant HP over that time at low cost- this made par for being stunned and having to be close to the tank and putting you at risk.</P> <P>And that new little fluff mana wont make it better. There are way more effective means of mana transfer from other classes so that isnt really what you need.</P> <P>Now it is still utterly useless and wont make it back on my hotbars, there is no use for it that couldnt be managed better with our other spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS:  where do i get the refund for my master i spent on it?</P> <P> </P>

[pedigr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ebarel wrote:<div></div><p>PS:  where do i get the refund for my master i spent on it?</p><hr></blockquote></span>PM blackgard about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Dragonreal]

If you never see the MT grp as a warden, then you need to sit down and look real hard at your abils and have a bit of a chat with your raid leader.. or find a new guild.

[haner74]

<P>I have to agree Dragonrealms on this one.  Everynight I am in the MT group and we have taken on almost all the end game content, Poet's Palace Return, Gates, Lockjaw, Dragons in MajDul, Shimmering Citadel instance, Silent City instance (sorry, can't remember the correct names).  We are very important to raiding and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  We expect to get our Prismatic 2.0 weapons this upcoming weekend.  All this happens with the help of a warden in the MT group.</P> <P>I am very excited that we get the power feed.  This along with Spirit of the Bat are extremely useful in PP:Return for a warden and MT.  Steps in the right direction.</P> <P>Annya</P> <P>60 Warden / 60 Alchemist</P>

[kenji]

Clearly, u need to have a chat with your raidleader, he must be clueless abt how Warden provide buffs for MT grp, if he does, maybe your skills need improvement.<BR><BR> <DIV>from my own experience, i wont put a Fury in MT when there is a Warden with similar healing skills.</DIV>

[Unmask]

Healing ability is largely irrelevant for the MT group since virtually all heals are cast within a raid (aside from grp heals but furies and wardens have the same ones aside from tree vs hibernation).  While HG is useless (at least currently) porcupine is a fantastic buff and some of the harder mobs we face we fail with a warden in MT group but succeed with a fury.  Usually we prefer to put a fury in a melee group though.<div></div>

[kenji]

Warden provide more defensive buffs, such as heal proc (spore thing), such as sandstorm, such as extra 65 wis for whole grp (aka 200 all resist), such as single target 95 wis buff (aka 300 all resist)<BR> <DIV>if your tank is high end tank with close to 70% mitigation with other classes buffs, i will take Warden to provide better resist all-the-time rather than a stunned patch-healer that only gives 30 sec in 3 mins.</DIV>

[Dragonreal]

<DIV>Wardens really are better resist buffers than furies.. even against heat where everyone seems to think furies are better; just because one of their buffs says it's more heat than cold, doesn't mean we still don't buff more heat than they do. Idk why ppl disregard our 36s, 798 point elemental buff + 1459 point ward buff... or our wis buffs.. or the bit of resist on our ac buff (yes I know it's only like 168 but it's still there and it's still 168 more than what furies do)</DIV>

[Unmask]

Against elemental mobs you can be sure we have a warden in the MT group. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But there are some real tough raid mobs out there that don't have elemental AEs.  Or they have AEs that can be mitigated through gear/potions much better than the extra 200ish from WIS.  Plus WIS does not give physical mitigation and against orange encounters not only is mitigation crucial, I think the effects of sandstorm are somewhat trivial.That said, we do have a somewhat unorthdox raid force so that could be part of the issue for why fury is generally better tyhan warden vs orange encounters.  *shurg*<div></div>

[Sorano]

<DIV>Quite frankly porcupine is overated and it's something plate tanks cling to as a psychological crutch because they love mitigation. Let's put it in context. Porc is a 30 second buff. There is no way any fight against an orange con raid mob is going to last less than 30secs, so you will be spending the majority of the fight without porc up. If you can't keep your tank up without porc you will fail. Plain and simple. A warden provides consistant buffs, while a fury without the extra +95 wis for resists provides less defensive buffs when porcupine is down, which it will be for most of the fight. The fury is also stunned for the duration of porc and you lose any healing ability from them. Against orange con mobs especially, you need consistancy and you need all your healers healing. Furys and wardens have the fastest casting DHs in the game and having one fury stand there stunned is just a waste of healing potential. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would seriously talk to your raid leader about MT group setups and what buffs each druid class actually brings. And it is incorrect that furys and wardens heal the same. Yes our HoTs are the same but our DHs are worlds apart. A fury can't touch a warden's DHing ability in a raid situation even with BiTF.</DIV>

[Unmask]

DHs are raid wide.  It doesn't matter what group you're in.<div></div>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR>DHs are raid wide.  It doesn't matter what group you're in.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think you missed the point of my post. You don't put a warden in the MT group just for their DHs. You put them there because wardens buff +668 to ALL resists permanently for your MT, which is the consistancy you need against tough encounters. Porc is a temporary 30sec buff and once it's down you are back to square one, and have to keep the tank up without it. It is therefore better to put a warden in there who will provide you with consistency than to be boucing from one extreme to another with porc. You are going to be spending the majority of the encounter with porc down anyway, so you may as well gear up to fight it in it's entirety without it and instead go for the warden's consistant +wis buff.

[Zammik]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR><BR>I think you missed the point of my post. You don't put a warden in the MT group just for their DHs. You put them there because wardens buff +668 to ALL resists permanently for your MT, which is the consistancy you need against tough encounters. Porc is a temporary 30sec buff and once it's down you are back to square one, and have to keep the tank up without it. It is therefore better to put a warden in there who will provide you with consistency than to be boucing from one extreme to another with porc. You are going to be spending the majority of the encounter with porc down anyway, so you may as well gear up to fight it in it's entirety without it and instead go for the warden's consistant +wis buff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What makes Porc so good is that the first 30s of the fight is when the most dps is dealt by the encounter.  After 30s, debuffs are in, the encounter is mezzed, hitting less frequently, hitting for less, and missing more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyhow, yeah we use a Warden (myself) in the MT group all the time, and when I'm not around the Fury is in it instead.  When our Mystic isn't around the Fury is also in there with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just saying, I don't think Porc is over rated.<BR></DIV>

[Unmask]

My initial comment about healing was directed at someone else who implied that warden should be in MT group partially due to healing.  I really have no idea what DHs have to do with raid assignments and am still not sure why you even mentioned it.  You might think Porc is overrated (I disagree) but a warden's resists do squat when the mob is meleeing for 7k+ and mem-wipes.<div></div>

[Sorano]

<P>Even WITH porc the mob is still going to melee for 7k and memwipe. Porc is a 30 second buff! You still have to deal with the issue since it is going to be down for the majority of the fight. If you can't handle that you are going to FAIL regardless of porc. The main issue with orange con mobs is aggro, not their DPS. If your healers can't handle the DPS of orange con mobs and keep ypur tank up then a fury standing there stunning themselves instead of healing is hardly going to be the solution.</P> <P>And mobs no longer do the most DPS in the first 30 seconds, they have smoothed that over and mob DPS is consistant throughout an encounter.  Yes the raid is most vulnerable during the first few seconds, but that has a lot to do with tanks positioning and healers not getting their heal range right or getting stunned on pull, or chanters mezz not sticking. All factors that if you have a raid force that is well trained you can overcome with practise.</P> <P> </P>

[Zammik]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <P>And mobs no longer do the most DPS in the first 30 seconds, they have smoothed that over and mob DPS is consistant throughout an encounter.  Yes the raid is most vulnerable during the first few seconds, but that has a lot to do with tanks positioning and healers not getting their heal range right or getting stunned on pull, or chanters mezz not sticking. All factors that if you have a raid force that is well trained you can overcome with practise.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sure they do, simply because, like I said, debuffs aren't in.  Maybe it's hard to see the power of debuffs since we actually have none, but they're make a huge difference.

[myount]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radiohead316 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <P>And mobs no longer do the most DPS in the first 30 seconds, they have smoothed that over and mob DPS is consistant throughout an encounter.  Yes the raid is most vulnerable during the first few seconds, but that has a lot to do with tanks positioning and healers not getting their heal range right or getting stunned on pull, or chanters mezz not sticking. All factors that if you have a raid force that is well trained you can overcome with practise.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sure they do, simply because, like I said, debuffs aren't in.  Maybe it's hard to see the power of debuffs since we actually have none, but they're make a huge difference.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is correct, the mob still does the most DPS at the very beginning of the fight.  They put a Fury in the MT group in my guild for that very reason, well that and the fact that a warden has nothing to give to the MT group above a fury.  Resists of a few hundred don't mean much when you have healers spamming heals on the main tank.  Furys get all of our defensive buffs plus a ton of offensive buffs of which we get none.  There should never be a warden in the MT group unless there is not a fury on.</P> <P> </P>

[Mrrockmeister]

I have never commented on these boards because I believed alot of what is being said.  But...  The last comment about a warden not being in the main group over a fury is a load of crap. I have been in the main group over a higher level fury almost every raid because of the buffs I can provide and the slightly better healing. Furys always think they are better. I have this battle everyday with our furys til we duel and find out who is superior.  Furys have their place and so do wardens.  Either can be used in a main group of a raid as long as they are used for their strengths. Nuff Said <div></div>

[Unmask]

Why would a raid leader place a warden in the MT group over a fury due to healing?  This is what I don't get and you're the 3rd person to bring it up.  Single target heals are raid-wide.  The only exception is HG and at least until LU18, there isn't any reason to even cast it!Buffs are another issue.  We base the MT group on the buffs needed for each specific encounter (sometimes we use a bruiser as MT).  If you're saying that there is only 1 possible MT group for every possible encounter then I think we have a very large difference of opinion.<div></div>

[Fingolfin2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unmasked wrote:<BR>Why would a raid leader place a warden in the MT group over a fury due to healing?  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The tree and spores! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protecting grove is a nice addition of a hot but takes some timing on encounters with AOE or just leaving it out of range while jousting. Spores always parses pretty low though :/ </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing isnt why we;ve always used one. The resists buffs and power buffs are great. Natural instinct is nice on the MT and lets them hit more consistently on hard cons also. Also the dual save death spells on pulls that like to 1shot the mt make it possible to cast at least 1 almost every pull if needed. </DIV>

[Unmask]

Spores - sure but it's pretty trivial - it adds up I suppose.  I'm not so sure about the tree, at least not until the range is fixed and it stops dying to AEs.  It eats alot of power if it is just healing the MT.  On the same note, hibernation is handy as well.<div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>maybe u should ask why put Fury into MT grp except Porc?</DIV>

[Shennr]

<P>How about the question of besides needing resists, why even put a druid into the MT group. Lots of mobs out there just hit for crushing, slashing, piercing and we contribute very little to the MT group in that regard.  In fact the only real benefit that I see is the group heals.</P> <P>If there is a troubador or conjuror in the MT group then you can kiss the usefulness of Sandstorm Goodbye. I think mine added less then 2% avoidance when I put it on the MT right before pulls.</P> <P>Our hitpoint buff is to be scoffed at but you can say that every little bit helps.</P> <P>We don't have a group power buff anymore but we do add a lot of power to other priests.</P> <P>Our AC buff's second effect is the poorest of the priests and I always have mine cancelled for some other priest to use.</P>

[Especial]

<P>We were raiding in the Living Tombs instance (Gates of Akhen Aket or whatever), and found ourselves replacing a lvl 60 Fury with mostly Adept IIIs and Masters, and fabled gear, for a lvl 57 Warden with mostly adept IIIs. With the Fury, a name wipped us, however, with the Warden in the group and buffs in place, it was just what we needed for the next few major mobs. I'll agree with Clint--the groups can't be static--have to change based on the needs of the mob. I personally think we own as the priest class--always have. Not that a duel is the best way to judge who is the most efficient healer out there, but I can take down most classes without much trouble. But anyways, I think we do more for the tanks resists and what not--but there are always exceptions. Yar</P> <P> </P> <P>Samui</P> <P>60 Warden/60 Sage</P> <P>Oasis</P>

[myount]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>maybe u should ask why put Fury into MT grp except Porc?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is one spell that gets the Fury in the MT group period.  But lets look at other buffs.  Furies buff STR,WIS,INT, and AGI.  We buff Agi and Wis.  We have about a 95 wis buff over them.  So roughly 300 resists  WOOPIE.  Thier secondary effect on thier Mit buff is IN-combat health regen.  Ours is a small magic resist buff.  Those are the only differences i see and they have lots of attack procs and single target spells above us. </P> <P>All of that is in addition to the Porcupine spell that adds 1600mit for 36sec at Master1.  Now tell me why a Warden would be considered to be in the MT group????????  Don't give me some answer about how you did better with a warden then a fury because i am sure that was the raid or a lucky streak of misses on the MT.  Give me numbers.</P> <P> </P>

[kenji]

<DIV>replying many ppls, so this isnt a well passage.<BR><BR>-- i dont remember Fury buffs Wis, any spells i missed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- in a most defensive grp (MT group), put in fury's int buffs...kinda wasted. put in warden's wis buffs...more flexible gear choice for whole grp Healers (assume u put a Inquisitor, a Defiler, a Warden).</DIV> <DIV><BR>-- single target - STR and AGI, yes, it's useful to MT, and it proc haste, so more chance getting riposted due to more haste too, and u need to heal more. right? (yes it can do more dps...but worth to take more riposte?)<BR><BR>-- Sandstorm, yes when u compare to other class (bard thing..) but Fury doesnt have, so...it doesnt really matter. it still helps more than a Fury.<BR><BR>-- numbers...a sec...ok, Fury's regen... 10.3 hp per sec (62 hp per tick)... Spore : proc heal 100-200 (50% effect) per 2 sec. aka 50-100 per sec, even spore just 10% proc still work better right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- high crushing/slashing/piercing dmg epic has supreme high riposte dmg... add in a fury with more haste proc... i cant say silly, but not smart. rather give a rogue somewhere in MA / DPS grp.<BR><BR>-- Warden has more power (way higher wis, and Power buff) than a Fury, **if** it's a power consuming heal game, the Warden should be able last longer than a Fury. no reason to have a faster oop healer in Main Group right? since the most effect heals must cast within grp (Group Regen, Regen <-since u only need 1 to cast, u wont ask a better burst healer for doing this.) </DIV>

[Asp728]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>replying many ppls, so this isnt a well passage.<BR><BR>-- i dont remember Fury buffs Wis, any spells i missed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Primal Spirit increases int and wis by 65.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>-- numbers...a sec...ok, Fury's regen... 10.3 hp per sec (62 hp per tick)... Spore : proc heal 100-200 (50% effect) per 2 sec. aka 50-100 per sec, even spore just 10% proc still work better right?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which regen are you referring to that does 62 hp per tick?<BR><BR></P>

[myount]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>replying many ppls, so this isnt a well passage.<BR><BR>-- i dont remember Fury buffs Wis, any spells i missed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- in a most defensive grp (MT group), put in fury's int buffs...kinda wasted. put in warden's wis buffs...more flexible gear choice for whole grp Healers (assume u put a Inquisitor, a Defiler, a Warden).</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Fury 60 Primal Spirit A group augmentation that increases the intelligence and wisdom of the fury's group. <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>-- single target - STR and AGI, yes, it's useful to MT, and it proc haste, so more chance getting riposted due to more haste too, and u need to heal more. right? (yes it can do more dps...but worth to take more riposte?)<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So your MT's do not attack at all?</P> <P></P> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR><BR>-- Sandstorm, yes when u compare to other class (bard thing..) but Fury doesnt have, so...it doesnt really matter. it still helps more than a Fury.<BR><BR> <HR> <P>Sandstorm is not worth casting for the cost of power.  A raid buffed MT will gain about 1% from using this and you will burn a ton of power keeping it up.  Aside from the fact that it will not stun or effect EPIC mobs.  A furys Porcupine effects EPICS for sure, and 1600 MIT for almost no power is alot better then 1% for a ton of power.<BR><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Warden has more power (way higher wis, and Power buff) than a Fury, **if** it's a power consuming heal game, the Warden should be able last longer than a Fury. no reason to have a faster oop healer in Main Group right? since the most effect heals must cast within grp (Group Regen, Regen <-since u only need 1 to cast, u wont ask a better burst healer for doing this.)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You really dont need to group regen or group heal for most EPIC mobs and you can heal just fine out of group, so heals do not come into this picture at all.<BR><BR>Nice attempt, but I still say Fury is 10 times better for a MT group then a Warden.  They bring alot more then we can even think about.  Check out this list of spells and keep in mind all of thier spells are not on this list.  SICK BUFFS.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=9363</A></P> <P> </P>

[myount]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>-- numbers...a sec...ok, Fury's regen... 10.3 hp per sec (62 hp per tick)... Spore : proc heal 100-200 (50% effect) per 2 sec. aka 50-100 per sec, even spore just 10% proc still work better right?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which regen are you referring to that does 62 hp per tick?<BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its thier secondary affect from the Mit buff.  <BR>

[Shennr]

<P>I still think that one of each class type priest should be in the MT group, druid, shaman, cleric.  However, I do beleive that the druids give the least in that regard.</P> <P>Oh and it was my belief that both druids have the same power buff just different side effects like int or wis. It just so happens that wis increases the power of priests only as well.</P>

[myount]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <P>I still think that one of each class type priest should be in the MT group, druid, shaman, cleric.  However, I do beleive that the druids give the least in that regard.</P> <P>Oh and it was my belief that both druids have the same power buff just different side effects like int or wis. It just so happens that wis increases the power of priests only as well.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, i am just saying that it should be a Fury from reading the buffs.  I was shocked to see an offensive druid buffer have better defensive buffs then we do.  Shocked and disappointed.</DIV> <DIV></DIV>

[Lego]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> myount wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <P>I still think that one of each class type priest should be in the MT group, druid, shaman, cleric.  However, I do beleive that the druids give the least in that regard.</P> <P>Oh and it was my belief that both druids have the same power buff just different side effects like int or wis. It just so happens that wis increases the power of priests only as well.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, i am just saying that it should be a Fury from reading the buffs.  I was shocked to see an offensive druid buffer have better defensive buffs then we do.  Shocked and disappointed.</DIV> <DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What defensive buffs does a Fury have that a Warden doesn't?  Our buff lines are virtually identical with the exception of Porcupine which has already been hashed over many many times on this thread alone.  </P> <P>The whole offensive/defensive priest thing is a farce really.  That all changed with the CU.<BR></P>

[myount]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What defensive buffs does a Fury have that a Warden doesn't?  Our buff lines are virtually identical with the exception of Porcupine which has already been hashed over many many times on this thread alone.  </P> <P>The whole offensive/defensive priest thing is a farce really.  That all changed with the CU.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are correct, the CU took away the offensive/defense titles from the druids.  And all defensive buffs the warden has the Fury has, excluding Porcupine(Which is a Uber 30 sec buff for pulls when it counts) That one spell along with all the buffs you get as a fury which makes you equal to a warden should put you in the MT group period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point in fact is Fury's are offensive buffers with STR buff, Haste buff, Attack Proc and a ton of Int buffs.  Furies are a huge buffer for any DPS group.  You are an offensive buffer and with teh CU you are the better defensive buffer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, I am glad they upped your abilities and it helps my guild out with our fury.  The fact is Wardens should have either gotten some of those DPS buffs or some type of one OR were given a defensive buff to compensate.  It didnt happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Unmask]

<div></div><hr>kenjiso wrote:eplying many ppls, so this isnt a well passage.-- i dont remember Fury buffs Wis, any spells i missed?<div><font color="#ffff00">Group WIS buff like our and single target INT buff as opposed to our single target WIS buff.  If you cast it on MT then no impact on power but adds ~300ish resists.  If you cast it on a healer then you don't need to be in MT group for that.  </font></div><div>-- in a most defensive grp (MT group), put in fury's int buffs...kinda wasted. put in warden's wis buffs...more flexible gear choice for whole grp Healers (assume u put a Inquisitor, a Defiler, a Warden).</div><div><font color="#ffff00">INT increases damage from procs.  Not necessarily as useful, but not completely useless, depending on gear.  Plus bards use INT as well as any mage that happens to be in MT group.  Hey if your MT is a crusader then his nukes are more powerful too. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  On a related note our thorns are based on INT and its a raid wide spell.  Get a nice INT buff and they can do significantly more damage (with a fury's buff I went from adept 3 damage past master 2 damage).  And [Removed for Content] a troub's spell buff they do even more (though I'm not sure if the bard has to be in the MT's group or the caster's).</font>-- single target - STR and AGI, yes, it's useful to MT, and it proc haste, so more chance getting riposted due to more haste too, and u need to heal more. right? (yes it can do more dps...but worth to take more riposte?)<font color="#ffff00">Only if the MT is actually meleeing.  Some encounters our tank doesn't melee.</font>-- Sandstorm, yes when u compare to other class (bard thing..) but Fury doesnt have, so...it doesnt really matter. it still helps more than a Fury.<font color="#ffff00">Furies have hibernation - added group heal.  Not the greatest, but with good timing can be worthwhile.  Once our tree is fixed it'll be better than hibernation I think.</font>-- numbers...a sec...ok, Fury's regen... 10.3 hp per sec (62 hp per tick)... Spore : proc heal 100-200 (50% effect) per 2 sec. aka 50-100 per sec, even spore just 10% proc still work better right?</div><div> <font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">If spores procs 125 per 2s on average, then it is 62.5 per second and since it procs 8% of the time, it only heals about 5 hp per second.  Some of those ticks will be wasted so that counters the fact that spores is likely to be up more than 8% of the time.</font></div><div>-- high crushing/slashing/piercing dmg epic has supreme high riposte dmg... add in a fury with more haste proc... i cant say silly, but not smart. rather give a rogue somewhere in MA / DPS grp.<font color="#ffff00">Depends if MT is actually meleeing and how many furies you have.  With only one sure might want to stick in the dps group, but with hastes not stacking as they did pre CU the fury's haste might be wasted there as well.  We usually have 2 wardens and 2 furies in a raid so we choose which one each encounter (well only the tough ones).</font>-- Warden has more power (way higher wis, and Power buff) than a Fury, **if** it's a power consuming heal game, the Warden should be able last longer than a Fury. no reason to have a faster oop healer in Main Group right? since the most effect heals must cast within grp (Group Regen, Regen <-since u only need 1 to cast, u wont ask a better burst healer for doing this.)<font color="#ffff00">If you have another druid outside MT group then you don't want your MT group druid to keep the single target HoT up since they may need power for group only spells (e.g. group heals, cures, etc.).  Other than that the druid is in the MT group for buffs, not heals so power isn't really an issue.  A lower power healer is going to heal less regardless what group they're in.</font><hr></div><div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Sandstorm does not effect Epic named But it effects most adds (even epic tagged) other then the main mob in an Epic fight. Point being both wardens and furies are used consistently in MT groups. Depending on the guild and the character both are fairly equal. In any spell resist fight i would take warden anytime over an equal fury. If its pure melee i would take a fury instead. Both have thier pros and cons. </P> <P>Back to the topic of this thread the new change to HG is awesome it now provides more power to the MT then what it costs us to cast as well as healing the MT for a decent cost. NO other healer in the game can now give the MT power as well as a warden. Chalk one more bonus to being a warden. Btw people complain about the stun, but i find the stun negliable considering it takes less then a moment to cancel the stun and i place HG right by my direct heals for that reason alone.</P> <DIV>Edit- BTW many warriors and guilds swear by Primal essence line. Fury procs mean absolutly nothing IF you can't HIT the NPC. IF you want i can provide an entire thread on warden vs fury in the gaurdian boards that claim they preferr wardens over furies.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:46 PM</span>

[Lego]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> myount wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What defensive buffs does a Fury have that a Warden doesn't?  Our buff lines are virtually identical with the exception of Porcupine which has already been hashed over many many times on this thread alone.  </P> <P>The whole offensive/defensive priest thing is a farce really.  That all changed with the CU.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are correct, the CU took away the offensive/defense titles from the druids.  And all defensive buffs the warden has the Fury has, excluding Porcupine(Which is a Uber 30 sec buff for pulls when it counts) That one spell along with all the buffs you get as a fury which makes you equal to a warden should put you in the MT group period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point in fact is Fury's are offensive buffers with STR buff, Haste buff, Attack Proc and a ton of Int buffs.  Furies are a huge buffer for any DPS group.  You are an offensive buffer and with teh CU you are the better defensive buffer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, I am glad they upped your abilities and it helps my guild out with our fury.  The fact is Wardens should have either gotten some of those DPS buffs or some type of one OR were given a defensive buff to compensate.  It didnt happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong, and if so, I apologize.  But, you're saying two very different things in consecutive paragraphs.  First off you state that I'm correct in saying that there is no defensive vs. offensive druid.  Then you say that we are the offensive buffer in the next.  I guess I'm confused as to why you're arguing both sides.</P> <P>Wardens do have a defensive buff Furies don't.  Wisdom.  A rather large amount it.  You may argue that it's effect is not enough to count, but that's another deal entirely.  Wardens also have a skill increasing offensive buff, however I'm not sure how effective that is so I'll refrain from comment.</P> <P>In short, if (per your 2nd paragraph in the quoted text) Furies are an offense buffer, then why would it make sense to not use them as such?  I know if I'm in the MT group my one melee buff isn't going on the guardian, it's going on the bruiser, or pally if he happens to be tanking.  If, on the other hand, I'm in a mage oriented, or scout oriented group my buffs have more overall effect.</P> <P>In my opinion, either class can fill the position just fine.  But if I had both on the raid, I'd use the Fury outside of the MT group.  Others mileage may vary and that's fine.  That is, afterall one of the reasons the classes are more equal than they ever were.  Because both druid subs can do the job these days. </P>

[kenji]

well, if i lead the raid, i will put least Haste % for the MT, but boost up his Offense skill (less miss rate) and boost his DPS % (bigger shot per *hit*), but definitely not Haste %. Haste will definitely put the MT suiciding (pre-13 could say Darathar, post-13 could say OJ encounter, which haste just result same miss rate, higher spd to get riposted, for a big pile of dmg)<BR><BR>btw..Spore is definitely more than 5 hp per sec...lets say, the mob itself hitting once per sec as 8% proc, after the slow/aoe slow/ whatever it stack, the proc rate will also goes up. just like the melee proc rate, the slower hits the more chance proc...

[Shennr]

<P>The thing about HG is it may give about 800-900 power but at the cost of being stunned for 36 seconds in raids.  36 seconds of stun in combat can be an eternity.  So is the point in casting this spell to heal the MT or is it to feed power to the MT?  We can out heal this spell with our single target regen alone and then add on top of that our DH's.  Ok, so the purpose now in using this spell at all is to feed power to the target you are on, not to heal.  If you have to toggle it off just to throw in some bigger heals then you waisted a portion of the power regen (the true purpose of the spell).  </P> <P>I truely like the idea of adding this bonus benefit to the spell but still lack seeing the necessary need to use it.  </P> <P>I guess I will be testing how useful this spell is in the next few days to come.</P>

[Drizz]

just a FYI the new amount of power per tic is 30-36 at Master 1, and costs 65 power to cast/32tic, not exactly to great, if they revamped the spell to heal/regen twice as much in 18 seconds then it might be a different story.  Overall it costs 641 power for its cast/duration to be maintained and gives 540-648 total power at M1.

[kenji]

so HG can be treated as power transfer and regen <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Formangenavn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> so HG can be treated as power transfer and regen <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>IMO it can be seen as a MT only power transfer and an inferior regen.</DIV>

[Shennr]

<DIV>The regen is only a small benefit to it as I would not use this spell to ever heal someone.  Instead this spell is indead now a power transfer.  To be stunned for 36 seconds is still iffy and the power consumed appears to be the same amount as the power given so when to cast this is hard to tell with the stun.  </DIV>

[Kyralis]

The power transfer is sorta nice, but the spell continues to have little raid utility. We're healers- we simply cannot afford 36 seconds of stun that seriously impairs our ability to provide MT healing without some massive benefit to make up for that (such as the mitigation increase on porcupine for furies). The spell will almost certainly remain "not worth casting" in the vast majority of (raid, especially) situations. <div></div>

[xenocyst]

The only thing I can think is, "Well, it's a killer spell for a duel."Oh well, someday I will no longer have fury envy (when I have a 60 fury <span>:smileywink:</span>)<div></div>

[c00nd]

<P>Did I miss something?  Why does 36 seconds keep coming up?</P> <P>I thought the spell lasts until cancelled?</P>

[Dragonreal]

<DIV>the spell has a 36s duration and 2.5 min recast.. you have the option to turn it off early if you need to cast something else.</DIV>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<DIV>I find the change to this spell...um..just ok.   I agree that it's not worth the stun for the tiny amount of power regen you are getting, and the heal is not noteworthy.  This spell being worth casting is SOOOO situational as to make it practically useless.</DIV>

[Zammik]

<P>I think it's pretty decent for about 8s or so.  Toss regular HoT, then this immediately after, then cancel when regular HoT wears off.  That's about all it was ever good for to begin with.  I still think the power cost is way way too high.  Maybe like 1/4 of what it costs now would make it very cool.... but then I guess we could solo anything we can land root on and never run out of power.  Then again, chanters can do that with mez right now.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Who knows what they're thinking.</P>

[Shennr]

I tested this spell out extensively the past 2 days and I would have to say the power regen effect is a big wash up.  It added so very little power to multiple classes and not to mention that i had to be stunned for the entire duration of that power transfer that it still is not worth casting.  I think that I am finally through with this spell and Im going to take it off my hotbar for good.  It sure was a fun spell to mess with back in january when it was like the best spell in the game but now sadly I am retiring it.

[Mor]

Still not worth casting <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>can cast it for 1 tick at ~500hp and 32power for a 64power cost.  fast and cheap =p</DIV>

[Unmask]

Well it's only about 420 on average at master but I see your point.  Still with a 2.5 minute recast timer it's basically an emergency spell if you're using it for that.  And if you need it for just 1 tick you're in real trouble.<div></div>

[frostbane]

<div>I have to make an argument after reading all this! </div><div>First off the furies talk about a haste buff...but MOST raids we go on our MT (a pally) NEVER turns auto attack on because the mobs riposte so much and it would only make the raid harder.  Instead he wards/heals/taunts X2, rinse repeat with the occasional damage spell in there.  Well you have the hast for the rest of the group you say...but who in the MT group needs haste?  We use 1 tank, 3 healers, a DPS (for amends), and then usually a dirge or another tank for buffs (zerker).  So a Furies haste is better spent in a DPS group.  We like to set up a melee DPS group with 4 melee DPS classes, a dirge (for cacophony of blades) a fury for the Haste and offensive buffs plus group heals. </div><div>Or you could put a fury in with the caster group to buff their INT!</div><div> </div><div>A warden on the other hand provides a TON of wisdom...which boosts resists.  Also their Single Target Aspect of the Hawk spell is great for placing on a Tank for the extra 300'ish power AND the extra wisdom.  If the MT is a pally it's even better because wisdom effects Pally's power pool (not as much as STR, but it helps nonetheless).  Couple that with our group Wisdom/Agility buff you give them more power, more resists, and more Avoidance.  Lets face it most of the tanks i know are pushing max mitigation anyway and don't need porcupine to put them over the top (besides it's a waste to use porcupine if half the mit boost is wasted due to cap issues, since you just stunned a healer). </div><div> </div><div>The DPS that a fury has over wardens is null since it's a raid, and if your a healer and your doing Damage, your raid leader should beat you with a stick!</div><div>I have also found that Tranquilizing spores Procs a LOT...it's 10% but i see it's icon in my maintained window a LOT!  Plus the Natural instinct buff is something like 45 or so boost to combat stats at AD1, thats a nice chunk of buff if your MT is doing auto-attack!</div><div> </div><div>In the end Wardens do provide the best results to a Main tank group!  End of Story!</div><div> </div><div>As to HG...it's still a useful spell if your equipped properly.  It's 16 power every 2 seconds...but with my prismatic, Efreeti Boots, Amulet of the Swords of Ro, and my lockJaw hide vest, i regen like 19 (not logged in ATM so numbers might be off a bit)  extra power every 6 seconds in addition to the base regen.  Add onto that a Dirge's power regen song (since we put a dirge in our MT group usually) which is 22 at App4 i think i can regen 41 power or 4 seconds of the HG cost every 6 seconds (not counting base regen which is at least 16 i believe).  So i can actually break near even using HG.  Also you can use manastone even while stunned by HG...so feel free to use it if it is up when your stunned!  I figure the healing isn't the best but if it's going to be a long fight i usually pop the sacrificial heart the raid necro gives me, my power regen potion and cast HG and essentially gain power while healing/feeding the MT!</div><div> </div><div>The spell alone isn't horribly useful but if you couple it with some easily accesible items (not the fabled gear but potions/hearts/manastone) you can break darn near even!</div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>frostbane wrote:<div>I have to make an argument after reading all this! </div><div>First off the furies talk about a haste buff...but MOST raids we go on our MT (a pally) NEVER turns auto attack on because the mobs riposte so much and it would only make the raid harder.  Instead he wards/heals/taunts X2, rinse repeat with the occasional damage spell in there.  Well you have the hast for the rest of the group you say...but who in the MT group needs haste?  We use 1 tank, 3 healers, a DPS (for amends), and then usually a dirge or another tank for buffs (zerker).  So a Furies haste is better spent in a DPS group.  We like to set up a melee DPS group with 4 melee DPS classes, a dirge (for cacophony of blades) a fury for the Haste and offensive buffs plus group heals. </div><div>Or you could put a fury in with the caster group to buff their INT!</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">If you use a crusader as your MT ask him what INT does for him ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div><div> </div><div>A warden on the other hand provides a TON of wisdom...which boosts resists.  Also their Single Target Aspect of the Hawk spell is great for placing on a Tank for the extra 300'ish power AND the extra wisdom.  If the MT is a pally it's even better because wisdom effects Pally's power pool (not as much as STR, but it helps nonetheless).  Couple that with our group Wisdom/Agility buff you give them more power, more resists, and more Avoidance.  Lets face it most of the tanks i know are pushing max mitigation anyway and don't need porcupine to put them over the top (besides it's a waste to use porcupine if half the mit boost is wasted due to cap issues, since you just stunned a healer). </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">The fury adds the same wisdom as a warden except for Aspect of the Hawk.  Aspect of the hawk adds 300ish resists.  A fury would instead raise the MT's INT by around 100 but that actually improves the taunts of a crusader which is handy since our MT is also a pally most of the time.</font></div><div> </div><div>The DPS that a fury has over wardens is null since it's a raid, and if your a healer and your doing Damage, your raid leader should beat you with a stick!</div><div>I have also found that Tranquilizing spores Procs a LOT...it's 10% but i see it's icon in my maintained window a LOT!  Plus the Natural instinct buff is something like 45 or so boost to combat stats at AD1, thats a nice chunk of buff if your MT is doing auto-attack!</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Natural instnct is 45 at adept 3, but if your MT doesn't autoattack then it's meaningless but otherwise there is the haste.  </font></div><div> </div><div>In the end Wardens do provide the best results to a Main tank group!  End of Story!</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Well think what you like but I amd apparently many pthers beg to differ.</font></div><div> </div><div>As to HG...it's still a useful spell if your equipped properly.  It's 16 power every 2 seconds...but with my prismatic, Efreeti Boots, Amulet of the Swords of Ro, and my lockJaw hide vest, i regen like 19 (not logged in ATM so numbers might be off a bit)  extra power every 6 seconds in addition to the base regen.  Add onto that a Dirge's power regen song (since we put a dirge in our MT group usually) which is 22 at App4 i think i can regen 41 power or 4 seconds of the HG cost every 6 seconds (not counting base regen which is at least 16 i believe).  So i can actually break near even using HG.  Also you can use manastone even while stunned by HG...so feel free to use it if it is up when your stunned!  I figure the healing isn't the best but if it's going to be a long fight i usually pop the sacrificial heart the raid necro gives me, my power regen potion and cast HG and essentially gain power while healing/feeding the MT!</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Well all the things you have while using HG you also have when not using HG.  Essentially when you use HG you  are healing the tank for roughly the same amount as your level 54 hot and transfer a small amount of power.  The corresponding spell for a fury adds 1600 mitigation and resists vs all attacks.  I think it's a no brainer that porcupine is vastly superior.  That's generally why a fury is in our MT group.  Trash mobs (non named encounters) really don't matter but for nameds, especially encounters that are primarily melee (eg poets 2.0), porcupine makes an enormous difference.</font></div><div><hr></div></blockquote>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><div></div><p>I actually had a use for HG the other day. I was in a pickup raid working on Speak like a Dragon and we where taking out Dryak. Tank was lev 60 something, me as 60 Warden and another 57+ healer, Templar I think. This was not a very well coordinated raid, and when adds came MA missed them and they went for MT. He dropped like a flie, but I managed to rez him and started manafeeding him so he could taunt again. He actually thanked "the one that manafeed me" later.</p><p>Of course this is not possible if the raid is difficult. Well, atleast the raids I have attended usually whipes when MT goes down. Although I actually had a use for HG this time I still see it as an EXTREMELY situational spell.</p><p>Message Edited by Formangenavn on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:21 AM</span></p>

[Sorano]

<div></div><p>I have said this once and I will say it again, Porcupine is overated. It's a 30 second buff,and if you can't keep your tank up without it you may as well close up shop and go home since it's going to be down for the majority of the encounter anyway.  Yes HG is not all that useful and there's definitely room for improvement but there's not really much need to keep comparing it to Porcupine. INMHO Templar Sanctuary and 100% in combat rez are better examples of something I wish we had an equivalent off. </p>

[Kyralis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div><p>I have said this once and I will say it again, Porcupine is overated. It's a 30 second buff,and if you can't keep your tank up without it you may as well close up shop and go home since it's going to be down for the majority of the encounter anyway.  Yes HG is not all that useful and there's definitely room for improvement but there's not really much need to keep comparing it to Porcupine. INMHO Templar Sanctuary and 100% in combat rez are better examples of something I wish we had an equivalent off.</p><hr></blockquote>Porcupine might only be 30 seconds, but the initial 30 seconds of many encounters are where you win or lose. The extra mitigation gives your debuffers a chance to go to work- once the debuffs are on, they accomplish the same thing, but they can't be there when the tank first pulls. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> There are *definitely* occasions where porcupine does wonders for improving first-couple-seconds survivability of your MT, especially in PPtR or against encounters like the sunchild and black queen.That said, with the number of power-draining mobs running around DoF, I have been finding situational, late-fight use for HG. Debuffs are on, maybe some adds are down, and in general healing demands have lowered- leaving me free to cast HG so that the tank can keep taunting. Dinree in gates is a nice example of that- you don't need a lot of healing there, but having the MT go OOP would suck (loose mob that does chilling mist = dead raid), and the power from HG can be quite handy.</span><div></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<div></div><p>I have said this once and I will say it again, Porcupine is overated. It's a 30 second buff,and if you can't keep your tank up without it you may as well close up shop and go home since it's going to be down for the majority of the encounter anyway.  Yes HG is not all that useful and there's definitely room for improvement but there's not really much need to keep comparing it to Porcupine. INMHO Templar Sanctuary and 100% in combat rez are better examples of something I wish we had an equivalent off. </p><hr></blockquote><p>You missed the points made about porc earlier (I wonder if your raids use debuffs at all since you seem to ignore that aspect).  The opening few seconds of any tough fight are the most important.</p><p>The only reason I compare HG and porcupine is because they both stun the caster.  Assuming you can do without a healer for 36s, a fury would usually find value in casting porcupine while a warden would rarely have a reason to cast HG.  But neither cast anything like sanctuary and a templar will usually be in the MT group anyway so bringing that up is irrelevant to which druid would be preferred in the MT group.</p>

[Sorano]

<div></div><div>I am well aware of the importance of debuffs thank you, and I will say just this: We have killed Maro Joava in the Djinn Prism WITHOUT porcupine. That mob has insane DPS but because we can keep our tank up without relying on a 30 second buff, we succeeded.</div><p>Message Edited by Sorano on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:39 AM</span></p>

[BBouch]

<font color="#6666ff">Caerwyn</font><span>"especially in PPtR or against encounters like the sunchild and black queen."<font color="#ff9900">Oooh, they're in there also? Hehe typo I'm guessing <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font></span><div></div>

[Kyralis]

<span><blockquote><hr>BBoucher wrote:<font color="#6666ff">Caerwyn</font><span>"especially in PPtR or against encounters like the sunchild and black queen."<font color="#ff9900">Oooh, they're in there also? Hehe typo I'm guessing <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Parse that as "especially in PPtR, or especially against encounters like...". Just possibly ambiguous wording. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Dragonreal]

<div>idk it made perfect sense to me 0_o dont' really see how you can get the idea that sunchild is in ppr from your wording in both cases...</div>

[BBouch]

whoops my beer goggles. My bad.<div></div>