Hey, I think we should be gods too

[Naithik]

<DIV>I was getting my daily hour of "scout the boards" when i saw this gem in the templars forum:<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=14471" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=14471</A><BR></DIV> <DIV>Basically, druids and shamans shouldn't be able to heal, only clerics should, because that was how EQ1 worked, and how D&D worked (never saw shamans in D&D and druids were a subtype of clerics, but ohhh well)<BR><BR>I managed to resist the urge to post on that thread and flame the OP till he is burnt to a crisp, and I decided to post about it here, in a friendly, and apparently more logical and mature community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you think about that? my first impression, is that the OP is just a kid who wants to be better than everyone else (not a personal attack raijinn, just my impression) then I abstracted the fact that he was asking for godly powers, and considered for a sec, this proposition as acceptable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, seeing how everyone who rolled a druid, did so expecting to be a healer, on par with all others, would you accept the clerics to be healers, while you are a secondary healer with utility? If so, how much utility would you need? If not, why would you not agree?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, what do you expect from the druid class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For my part, I would need REALLY godly utility to accept this change. being half heal half nuke isn't my type. I need to be something that is needed, not a [Removed for Content]([Removed for Content] as in a mix of both)  who can neither heal nor nuke well enough. but hey, if they give me a spell to be able to teleport anyone anywhere WORLDWIDE at will, the ability to instantly evac, to harvest 200% more rares, to imbue items with uber special magic properties ... you get the idea, i would accept being a secondary healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But in a more balanced and realist way, i think wardens should be healers. I think they should heal as well as any other class, and be specialists of defensive buffing (more mit, evasion, small permanent regen, elemental protections).<BR></DIV> <DIV>furies should be the exact oposite, healers with int buffs, spell damage buffs, melee damage buffs etc</DIV> <DIV><BR>templars should be healers with hp, mp buff, protections against undeads, while defilers should be more about debuffs and undead control<BR><BR>mystiks with more mental-like resists, haste etc, and defilers with mental debuffs, life taps etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways, that's only a couple of ideas, but i am curious, to see what wardens expect... wardens to be</DIV>

[Coredor]

I'm not a warden although I am considering being one.  Personally I think the essential part of balance should be that everyone CAN perform their primary role. In any healers case that should be being able to be main healer on level appropriate encounters with an average group.  I see no problems with some classes being slightly more offensive or defensive though.  The problem is that accross archetypes they have tried to balance primary roles while not dealing with secondary advantages that were given because of initial deficiencies that some classes had because they were slightly lacking at their primary functions. Of course determining the differences is marginal. I think thta cleric classes should be slightly better at healing than druids and that wardens should be slightly better healers than furies. This is to compensate for other strengths.  However the difference should not be vast, and everyone should be able to fulfill their primary role.

[Afista]

<P>Ok, I agree with you. First on the fact that I will post here, because if I do it in the other forum I will probably go off..... That girl is out of her mind!. LOL I still play a 70 Druid in EQ1 on Cazic Thule server. I can easily heal a main group. At level 70 with enough AAs I can do pretty much anything I want. So for her to say EQ1 druids were only for buffs and back-up heals..... well, she apparently didn't play long enough.</P> <P>Secondly, because I also feel Wardens have been and should continue to be a main healer. I chose warden for that reason. If I wanted to be dps I would have went fury. Any previous EQ player would have looked at the spell lists before they chose their class. If they changed it now I would probably just drop playing. The game being capped at 60 now limits what we can advance. I'm just crossing my finger for AAs.......</P> <P>So no, what's wrong with Druids being a main healer now too? I don't feel clerics should be given "extra perks". I mean, we lost our series of DoTs, ports, group invis, etc.... Maybe they can see it in later expansions with alternate experience abilities and we can have our own, but surely not now.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by DarkMoogle on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 PM</span>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<DIV>Geez..quite a post  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </DIV> <DIV><BR>Clearly the OP is someone who brought their EQ1 sensibilities with them into this game.   I'm pretty sure that it was stated at the onset that the old way of doing things had changed a bit.  I know that when Arielle first hit the Isle last Nov. 9th, I had never played anything like this before.  I came into this with no EQ1 history, no knowledge of how things 'ought' to be (heck, I didn't even know what a UI was..or what those buttony things did)  .</DIV> <DIV><BR>I studied the manual that came with the software to decide what to do and be.  Since it clearly stated that all healers would be able to do the job..with different focus...I picked the one that appealed to me.   I am a RL paramedic.  I pride myself on knowing what I'm doing, and being the best RL healer I can be.  Since I like that archetype ...had there been clear direction that one class was "THE" healer - I would have picked that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would never have picked a secondary 'utility' ...sort of..healer.   I would never have chosen a class that I knew was not going to be equally useful as any other team member.   As a matter of fact, when asked to be 'back up' healer to a lower leveled Templar, I would refuse...because I knew that it just wasn't true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only was there no information that said that - gameplay showed us that what the book said..was true.   We were all healing, just doing it in a different way.   As a matter of fact - Druids were doing the same job..but Uphill...in the snow...both ways!  Because we had to rid many old EQ players of the sensibility that druids weren't healers.   That was done successfully (I think) prior to the combat revamp.   We could all do the same job.  If you were uber, it was because you knew how to play your toon - not because of what that toon was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Playing both classes has been..interesting.     Indeed, I began playing the Templar to run a comparison and at the urging of a friend...(who did have the old EQ mindset), who insisted I'd be happier with a Templar.   Prior to the combat revamp - there was no comparison of which one I liked better for the sheer 'fun' of it, and that is Warden.   Both could keep a group alive, solo or with another healer.   IMO, in a good group - there's no 'Main Healer' just healers doing the things they do best.   If I have a better single reactive, I'm casting it on the Tank.  If my group regens rock...I'm healing the group...whatever the needs are, but not because one is 'worse' than the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This post doesn't make my blood boil  ...LOL .  I just kind of wonder how much fun it's been to play a class that has never, since the inception of this game, met the OP's standards for what it 'should be'.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not to say that everyone should accept what they get with no feedback - we all know there are some glaring imbalances with both Templar and Warden.  And you KNOW ..I don't mind offering feedback.   But a RP game where you can do what you want within the Lore that you like...is kind of the bottom line for us,  I think.   That's what I'm looking for, anyway  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rappy]

In the good old days blah blah blah...  time to go fetch the pipe and slippers The whole post was a pointless exercise - all healers lines were promised the ability to sustain a group with equal effectiveness 'using the term equal loosly' - if Sony goes back on that idea now, a large proportion of the 4 whole classes of people that get nerfed are going to be re-rolling or quitting because they played those classes to be healers - this will have a knock on effect with the friends of those classes and the whole player base will be rocked.  Saving that, the game people are paying for will have changed, guilds will be deeply affected by the change etc etc... the upshot would be... if the games going back to EQ1 style classes - new game time because many already spent 5 years on eq1 and left it for something new. Personally i chose a warden because i wanted a different style of healing having already done the cleric thing, having been told that warden specialised in heals etc.  I'm sorry to be blunt but if eq2 expects me to re-roll a class because all of a sudden 1 class of healers are going to be the only ones that really cut it healing they can shove it up their proverbial pipe and smoke the living daylights out of that idea... Backwards step and against their advertised intentions from day 1 I have absolutly no issues with clerics getting a hike in nukes or a root spell evac whatever... they are struggling to solo and i hear their pain and feel it for them (we were there recently with our sadly understrengthed heals - which may i add still dont quite match a clerics but that doesnt bother me because i can actually do my job healing a group (top style of healing is what they want - tough to to see whats staring you in the face sometimes isnt it)).  Wardens got results because we worked to get them... there were some whiners but most of us would consider what was called whining both constructive feedback and effective feedback (we got results) Maybe take a leaf out of the warden book of feedback and get the results templars need?? i probably said way too much lol... back to life.. beer... good coffee... fun gaming <div></div>

[Spag]

<P>I have been posting in that thread, as I can't stand to see that stuff.  I know its going to get ignored by devs, but I feel if they want to chat it up, I will add my $0.02.  </P> <P>I dont usually read the templar boards, but I received a PM from a Templar I will leave unnamed, with request that I visit the thread and add my comments.</P> <P>Don't hate templars, they are not all like that.  Just a few bad apples that spoil the bunch, you know how it goes.  As I stated in that thread, I don't disagree that they may need a DPS boost, but since they cannot come to a consensus, no dev is going to make any changes.</P> <P>Over all, the OP is off his rocker, with a few followers, and a few other disgruntled templars, that are willing to jump on any bandwagon in hopes their class will get some love.</P>

[Naithik]

<DIV>not to get on a tangeant (sp?) but i think thats the problem with templars. There are lots of them, so there are more, vocal and irrational, people who influence the majority. When a couple of people starts saying furies are WAYYY better than templars, others start believing it. The same would happen with wardens if we had a lot of big mouthed wardens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to all (or well, most) templars, I lub you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and special thanks to kendricke for all his work and the proofs and parses he provides to help the community. To all the other templars, look at logs, spells, get data, analyze it, back what you say with facts, then tell the devs what you want. If you can get your voice above the whiners, and apocalypse is comming preachers, SOE will hear ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lishara]

<P>Can none of you really understand the templars' viewpoints?  No, I'm not a templar.  I'm a 56 warden.  Nobody is saying that wardens or furies or whomever shouldn't be able to keep their groups alive.  What templars are saying is they want better healing OR some other utility to compensate for what's been given to the rest of us.  That's fair.  Doesn't it bother any of you wardens that furies pretty much have equivalent (if not better in some cases) heals plus twice the dps as us plus better utility (group invis/better buffs)?  It does me.  That's how the templars feel about the rest of us.  I don't blame them.  If healing is pretty much all they do, they *should* do it better than us.  I've seen so many posts on the warden boards that basically say 'furies have better dps than us so we should heal better than them.'  It's the same argument.</P> <P>Everyone is way too preoccupied with the words 'main healer' and 'backup healer'.  That's what seems to scare everyone who isn't a templar.  The idea that if they heal better than us we'll always be a 'backup healer'.  </P> <P>We should all want classes that complement eachother and work well together.  Maybe it's just an ego thing that I don't have.  Maybe it's that I pretty much play exclusively with guild groups that kick butt, and I don't have to deal with ignorant jerks in pick-up groups.  Because I've never felt like I was relegated to the role of 'backup healer'.  I get invited because I'm good at what I do and bring something unique to the group.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Lishara on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lishara wrote:<BR> <P>Can none of you really understand the templars' viewpoints?  No, I'm not a templar.  I'm a 56 warden.  Nobody is saying that wardens or furies or whomever shouldn't be able to keep their groups alive.  What templars are saying is they want better healing OR some other <FONT color=#ff0000>utility </FONT>to compensate for what's been given to the rest of us.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Lishara on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The biggest fallacy the whiners in the templar forums insist on perpetuating is the myth that they lack utility. They in fact have MORE utility than we do. They can debuff mob mit/str, and have heal proc spells that are just insane. One of them which I can't recall the name for heals the ENTIRE group for 571 when a mob dies. The only real problem templars have is that they lack a bit of dps. But no one in their right mind chooses a priest class to DPS. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their healing and I am sure parses will prove that they still have an edge on every single healing class, just because of the nature of reactives and the numerous proc heals they have. The gap between the healing classes is not so large anymore and this is what templars are up in arms about. They are no longer the undisputed healing gods of EQ2 and that has certainly riled them up big time. There are objective templars out there like Kendricke, who has been tirelessly striving to present facts about how the class is performing but he is constantly shouted down by the disgruntled trolls who have absolutely no logic to their posts. I think it says a lot about the the state of the postes in the templar forums, that a troll like Cowdenicus has such a large folllowing. I think they devs are smart enough to separate out the valid posts from the whines and will make appropriate changes when needed.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consider the endgame for a second. You still need a templar in your MT group and they are useful in any other group as well for their massive DHs.. Their place in the endgame has never once been under threat, but the same cannot be said of wardens. So I wouldn't feel too sorry for templars. </DIV>

[Jora]

Well I dont believe its that wardens dont understand the templars viewpoints, its that there are a few that are overexaggerating their issues.  While i agree that they need help, i think that help is in the dps department.   If you look at their spell lines, they have a lot of utility type spells.  Mark of the king,  stuns, and various others. Just cause the buff or debuff gives out healing, doesnt make that a heal spell. Its still a buff, and should be considered as utility.  Templars are defensive healers, and those spells like Mark of the king, and stuns give them that title.  Just cause they dont have evac, or group invis (which everyone can get their own invis these days),  doesnt make their utility less important. In fact, i would trade my evac for those spells cause i would rather have utility spells i use always, versus spells that i rarely use. 

[Arielle Nightshade]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jorack wrote:<BR>Well I dont believe its that wardens dont understand the templars viewpoints, its that there are a few that are overexaggerating their issues.  While i agree that they need help, i think that help is in the dps department.   If you look at their spell lines, they have a lot of utility type spells.  Mark of the king,  stuns, and various others. Just cause the buff or debuff gives out healing, doesnt make that a heal spell. Its still a buff, and should be considered as utility.  Templars are defensive healers, and those spells like Mark of the king, and stuns give them that title.  Just cause they dont have evac, or group invis (which everyone can get their own invis these days),  doesnt make their utility less important. In fact, i would trade my evac for those spells cause i would rather have utility spells i use always, versus spells that i rarely use.  <BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Agree here....mayhap I am not 'oober'...but I don't see such a huge difference between Templar and Warden healing ..now that we have been ..um..fixed.    It's DIFFERENT, achieved differently, but the bottom line is a healthy group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar does have some pretty good utility, it's just not spectacular (ie, clearly, dramatically noticeable) because much of it is Debuff.  (or so 'it seems') to me.   This means, to me, that the mob is debuffed so everyone else's damage can do it's work to the best of it's ability.  When a mage or scout says "WOOT...<insert number here>"  I kind of smile to myself.  It would have been "RESIST" in many cases ..if my spells didn't soften 'em up first.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said...a soloing Templar is like watching paint dry.  Sure, you can kill a mob - just put on a pot of coffee cause you are going to be there awhile.    Some luv could happen there, for sure.  Knowing this was true, when I rolled my Templar, it was to play with friends.  I knew I'd always be in a group - or I'd be pretty miserable 'bout now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think many, many Templars brought their EQ1 mindset with them, though...which is where the discontent starts.   Those that don't have that, seem to be much more able to show what they do and do not want within the context of THIS game. </DIV> <DIV><BR>More of my 2...LOL, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Biggles72]

My EQ1 druid was the main healer in almost every group i was in, didn't see very many clerics around for some reason. I dont' really care what the templars think, feel, or do as long as my warden remains fun to play.  <div></div>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lishara wrote:<BR> <P>Can none of you really understand the templars' viewpoints?  No, I'm not a templar.  I'm a 56 warden.  Nobody is saying that wardens or furies or whomever shouldn't be able to keep their groups alive.  What templars are saying is they want better healing OR some other utility to compensate for what's been given to the rest of us.  That's fair.  Doesn't it bother any of you wardens that furies pretty much have equivalent (if not better in some cases) heals plus twice the dps as us plus better utility (group invis/better buffs)?  It does me.  That's how the templars feel about the rest of us.  I don't blame them.  If healing is pretty much all they do, they *should* do it better than us.  I've seen so many posts on the warden boards that basically say 'furies have better dps than us so we should heal better than them.'  It's the same argument.</P> <P>Everyone is way too preoccupied with the words 'main healer' and 'backup healer'.  That's what seems to scare everyone who isn't a templar.  The idea that if they heal better than us we'll always be a 'backup healer'. </P> <P>We should all want classes that complement eachother and work well together.  Maybe it's just an ego thing that I don't have.  Maybe it's that I pretty much play exclusively with guild groups that kick butt, and I don't have to deal with ignorant jerks in pick-up groups.  Because I've never felt like I was relegated to the role of 'backup healer'.  I get invited because I'm good at what I do and bring something unique to the group.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Lishara on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG!!! Finally another priest can finally see it our way for once instead of being blinded and have an ego of being better then a Templar...I give Kudos to you Lishara =P</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The biggest fallacy the whiners in the templar forums insist on perpetuating is the myth that they lack utility. They in fact have MORE utility than we do. They can debuff mob mit/str, and have heal proc spells that are just insane. One of them which I can't recall the name for heals the ENTIRE group for 571 when a mob dies. The only real problem templars have is that they lack a bit of dps. But no one in their right mind chooses a priest class to DPS. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their healing and I am sure parses will prove that they still have an edge on every single healing class, just because of the nature of reactives and the numerous proc heals they have. The gap between the healing classes is not so large anymore and this is what templars are up in arms about. They are no longer the undisputed healing gods of EQ2 and that has certainly riled them up big time. There are objective templars out there like Kendricke, who has been tirelessly striving to present facts about how the class is performing but he is constantly shouted down by the disgruntled trolls who have absolutely no logic to their posts. I think it says a lot about the the state of the postes in the templar forums, that a troll like Cowdenicus has such a large folllowing. I think they devs are smart enough to separate out the valid posts from the whines and will make appropriate changes when needed.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consider the endgame for a second. You still need a templar in your MT group and they are useful in any other group as well for their massive DHs.. Their place in the endgame has never once been under threat, but the same cannot be said of wardens. So I wouldn't feel too sorry for templars.</DIV> <P></P> <DIV>Elyssa<BR>60 Warden<BR>Allure<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The one spell that gives healing when a mob dies is called Atoning Fate...Now im tired of hearing of this fallacy about no one would choose a priest Class for DPS...your right maybe we shouldn't have but if you going to have certien priest class they have good DPS and healing then why can't another class have the same???...If you guys can have healing close to ours why can't we have DPS close to yours??...I am not saying we should have the same DPS but close it just like you don't have the same heal power as us but its pretty close.</P> <P>Now for utility, they took away our str debuff, we have a Mit/divine debuff and a stun. Ok thats the cool debuff utilities. Now for healing utilities, we have atoning fate, mark of kings, invul. Curate, and Glory Of Combat. We have 2 reactives, 2 direct heals, and 1 Group heal.</P> <P>Reactives:<BR>Ok Ill give it up...our reactives are better then yours. Its true I won't deny that cause ours instantly react instead of HoT.</P> <P>Direct Heals:<BR>Im just gonna lump the group heal in here too which heals the group nicely. Our Greater Heal also heals really nice too over 1k of dmg but our Ameiloration line is just crap...it doesn't produce enough heal to keep anyone alive...its just nice to maybe throw on a mage if the change they get but they get hit hard it doesn't heal enough to keep them alive.  Ok we have 1 good heal and 1 crappy one but come on Wardens also have some nice heals too and most of your heals also add HoT to them...ours is one shot and thats it with a long recast on them and they take almost 10secs to cast. You are just as good as us in the healing department you to admit it.</P> <P>Utility:<BR>Atoning Fate is nice. When a target dies it instantly heals the group but only problem is there is a bug with the spell where it doesn't heal sometimes when the target dies.</P> <P>Glory of Combat is cool if you have a DPS in your group that attacks fast. It procs randomly but thats the things...we gotta pray it will PROC to do some good and usually it doesn't PROC at all in a fight.</P> <P>Mark of Kings has a 20% chance of going off which in most cases it does go off for me and deals a small debuff. Mark of Kings is a nice line for us.</P> <P>Invul. Healing, don't even get me started on this, this has to be a useless spell before #16 it only had a 10% to go off...10%!!! it never went off basically and now they increased it to 20% but you know what it still doesn't work. Most Templars don't even use the spell.</P> <P>We have 2 nice utility spells but the rest aren't much to shake a stick at. Our Pacify line is totally weak, short duration with a long recast timer and sometimes it will aggro the target on you.</P> <P>Much of our utility is based on random % procs thats what makes our utility so bad, if we had for sure sign it was going to work then it wouldn't be so bad but we our lucky if some of our proc heals work during fights. Plus our DPS is horrible, if every other priest class is going to cry about wanting more healing and already has good DPS and they get a boost to their heals why can't we have a boost to our DPS???</P> <P>Now that some priest class got what they wanted they want to stomp on templars and rub it in our face, well you know we are going to fight back.<BR></P>

[Fildren_the_Templ]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i><span></span>We have 2 nice utility spells but the rest aren't much to shake a stick at. Our Pacify line is totally weak, short duration with a long recast timer and sometimes it will aggro the target on you. </i>hum ... Soothe : Lower the aggro range of target, usefull to avoid adds . Useless in raid. Pacify : 16 second mezz (well target can't auto attack and is too stupid to use his spells, he can walk which is great for pulling ^^)  and 20 sec recast time. Can't be broke by AoE. Usefull in group situation now. A mezzed mob means less dps to your MT. Useless in raid situation as it don't works against epic. You can chain it with our stunt : Mez + stunt + mez etc... =  Mob unable to fight and less dps against your mt. But that require some skills... 1/5 Templar use this spell ... Maybe they just don't give it a try and want to silly spam heal... Stunt : Usefull in group situation, useless in raid don't works on Epic. Stunned mob = less dps for your mt. Sanctuary : Hehe great spell, 30 second groupe immune to fear / stunt / mez / stifle. Protective faith : Group ward against magical / divine damage. Just wanted to clarify the situation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Maybe our "lack of utility in normal group situation" come from the fact that most templars just want to spam heal and don't even try their spells.. As for our " lack utility in raid situation", yes maybe we need some improvement.. but hey I choose my templar to heal well, and I do it great while raiding ! We really need more dps. Why ? Because templar is not fun to play solo, hey just try to kill 30 orcs for a silly quest, that takes ages ! We need some tweaking on spells which are not usefull atm ( 2 ancients spells ) and we will be good in my own  opinion.. (sorry for my english) Templar 60 Storm <p>Message Edited by Fildren_the_Templar on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 AM</span>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Direct Heals:<BR>Im just gonna lump the group heal in here too which heals the group nicely. Our Greater Heal also heals really nice too over 1k of dmg but our Ameiloration line is just crap...it doesn't produce enough heal to keep anyone alive...its just nice to maybe throw on a mage if the change they get but they get hit hard it doesn't heal enough to keep them alive.  Ok we have 1 good heal and 1 crappy one but come on Wardens also have some nice heals too and most of your heals also add HoT to them...ours is one shot and thats it with a long recast on them and they take almost 10secs to cast. You are just as good as us in the healing department you to admit it.</P> <P>Much of our utility is based on random % procs thats what makes our utility so bad, if we had for sure sign it was going to work then it wouldn't be so bad but we our lucky if some of our proc heals work during fights. Plus our DPS is horrible, if every other priest class is going to cry about wanting more healing and already has good DPS and they get a boost to their heals why can't we have a boost to our DPS???</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You think your DHs are bad and have a10 second recast. Well you should take a look at ours. The warden arch heal line takes 10 seconds to HEAL. Not recast. Heal! you know your level 60 DH that heals for like 1.7k, well the warden DH heals for 600! Yes 600, and then takes 10 secs with a 80 hp/sec HoT to heal the rest. You try using that to heal in a raid, and then tell me how good warden healing is.</P> <P>And please our DPS is not that much better than yours. I stand by my original statement. Nobody in their right mind rolls a priest class to DPS. It's like rolling a wizzy and then expecting to tank. They just don't go together. All priest classes with maybe the exception of furys lack significant DPS. It takes a warden a very long time to solo as well, so it's not just a templar problem. The devs need to give priest classes an offensive stance for soloing that takes like 3 conc slots and that would solve all the DPS issues.<BR></P>

[Biggles72]

not to mention a templar isn't going to fold like a 5 year old girl scout the second he gets aggro.  as far as DPS goes I'm happy with what I have as a warden, if templars need more than that's something soe should address.  everybody should be able to have some soloing capability after all. but as far as being the only class suitable for being a main healer?  that's pretty stupid, i was the main healer in DFC raid last night because we couldn't FIND any other priests who would come and help with raid.  take that ability away and your cutting out 3/4ths of all priests who can act as the main healer, and at least on my server i do not see enough templars to cover all the bases here. <div></div>

[Mor]

<DIV>Add to that list of utility the only 100% combat rez with no spell effects in the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem with templars getting a boost in DPS.  I almost never solo, but lets face it.  We all have to at some point.  It shouldn't be as painful as it is for templars.   That said, it shouldn't be an enormous boost -- no priest is a dps class.  And being slightly better in healing, better in utility and able to wear everything from plate to cloth does mean they should probably give up a bit in the dps department.  Just not quite as much as it is right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But their utility is just fine (if not a tad over done). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Naithik]

<DIV>Templars have great utility, has some pointed out. And spells that proc N percent of the time DO PROC. I mean 5% is once every 20 hits.. quite often in a battle. Templars might need a dps boost, maybe solo only, but to be the only real healer, i don't think so. Now let's stick to the original post. I don'T want a flame war or whining fest starting here. Let's keep our forums clean ^-^</DIV>

[Unmask]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xerxess wrote:<div></div><p>If you guys can have healing close to ours why can't we have DPS close to yours?? </p><p><font color="#ffff00">You already do.  This is the warden board not the fury board. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can have any one of our damage spells in exchange for sanctuary.  I bet most of use would accept that trade.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> </p> <p>Now for utility, they took away our str debuff, we have a Mit/divine debuff and a stun. Ok thats the cool debuff utilities. Now for healing utilities, we have atoning fate, mark of kings, invul. Curate, and Glory Of Combat. We have 2 reactives, 2 direct heals, and 1 Group heal.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">We have an ae AGI debuff.  It does not work on epic targets as it is attached to a root (would be nice if they made only the root part not work on epics).  Our other combat utilities are duststorm but since the stun does not work on epics it rarely gets used, especially given the huge powercost.  I think that's it (an elemental mit debuff is attached to our dot).  Unless you want to talk about our group DI spell.  Pick your worst spell and I bet it's better than a group DI.  We have 1 HoT, 2 DHs (which are part DH and part HoT) and 3 group heals (if you count the tree).</font> </p><p>Direct Heals:Im just gonna lump the group heal in here too which heals the group nicely. Our Greater Heal also heals really nice too over 1k of dmg but our Ameiloration line is just crap...it doesn't produce enough heal to keep anyone alive...its just nice to maybe throw on a mage if the change they get but they get hit hard it doesn't heal enough to keep them alive.  Ok we have 1 good heal and 1 crappy one but come on Wardens also have some nice heals too and most of your heals also add HoT to them...ours is one shot and thats it with a long recast on them and they take almost 10secs to cast. You are just as good as us in the healing department you to admit it.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Our group heals used to be a complete joke but the recent upgrade made them worthwhile so I can't complan about them.  Regarding our direct heals, I think you are thinking of us pre-CU.  We lose part of our DH to be healed as a HoT later, it's not like a full DH plus a HoT.  We have no big heals anymore.  Your DH has a long recast same as ours but it takes that long for us just to get the full heal out of it and we usually lose most of the HoT portion because someone else will have most likely healed the MT to full by then (I think our DH is 60% up front and 40% HoT).  The initial heal on our DHs is so low that when we need a big heal, we simply do not have it.  I think we'd like at least 1 true direct heal.</font> </p> <p>Utility:Atoning Fate is nice. When a target dies it instantly heals the group but only problem is there is a bug with the spell where it doesn't heal sometimes when the target dies.</p> <p>Glory of Combat is cool if you have a DPS in your group that attacks fast. It procs randomly but thats the things...we gotta pray it will PROC to do some good and usually it doesn't PROC at all in a fight.</p> <p>Mark of Kings has a 20% chance of going off which in most cases it does go off for me and deals a small debuff. Mark of Kings is a nice line for us.</p> <p>Invul. Healing, don't even get me started on this, this has to be a useless spell before #16 it only had a 10% to go off...10%!!! it never went off basically and now they increased it to 20% but you know what it still doesn't work. Most Templars don't even use the spell.</p> <p>We have 2 nice utility spells but the rest aren't much to shake a stick at. Our Pacify line is totally weak, short duration with a long recast timer and sometimes it will aggro the target on you.</p> <p>Much of our utility is based on random % procs thats what makes our utility so bad, if we had for sure sign it was going to work then it wouldn't be so bad but we our lucky if some of our proc heals work during fights. Plus our DPS is horrible, if every other priest class is going to cry about wanting more healing and already has good DPS and they get a boost to their heals why can't we have a boost to our DPS???</p><font color="#ffff00">We have 1 proc heal spell.  It used to proc 2% pre CU and after the CU it proced at 5% and now it procs at 8%.  It's actually one of our best heals.  Pre CU we had a group buff line that proc healed, the base line proc'd at 2% but the training version proc'd at 5%.  We lost that in the CU.  To us, a 10% heal proc is godly.  In any fight the tank is going to get hit so often that this spell should proc several times.  Templars who don't use that spell ..., well, I'll leave it at that.</font> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Rappy]

- Classic case of - 'The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.' <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR><BR>The biggest fallacy the whiners in the templar forums insist on perpetuating is the myth that they lack utility. They in fact have MORE utility than we do. They can debuff mob mit/str, and have heal proc spells that are just insane. One of them which I can't recall the name for heals the ENTIRE group for 571 when a mob dies. The only real problem templars have is that they lack a bit of dps. But no one in their right mind chooses a priest class to DPS. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their healing and I am sure parses will prove that they still have an edge on every single healing class, just because of the nature of reactives and the numerous proc heals they have. The gap between the healing classes is not so large anymore and this is what templars are up in arms about. They are no longer the undisputed healing gods of EQ2 and that has certainly riled them up big time. There are objective templars out there like Kendricke, who has been tirelessly striving to present facts about how the class is performing but he is constantly shouted down by the disgruntled trolls who have absolutely no logic to their posts. I think it says a lot about the the state of the postes in the templar forums, that a troll like Cowdenicus has such a large folllowing. I think they devs are smart enough to separate out the valid posts from the whines and will make appropriate changes when needed.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consider the endgame for a second. You still need a templar in your MT group and they are useful in any other group as well for their massive DHs.. Their place in the endgame has never once been under threat, but the same cannot be said of wardens. So I wouldn't feel too sorry for templars. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because everything I have stated is absolutely truth. I do not have a following. I have people who agree with me on the subject that is my bandwagon or crusade right now. Healer (all healer) soloability sucks right now. We should be able to complete the 40% of the quests for solos in a reasonable fashion. I have called for most importantly Templars DPS to be fixed knowing full well if they scale up Templars then they will fix Wardens and Inquisitors to go with it. </P> <P>I have for months been asking for an offensive stance for ALL Healers. A DS type ability that would add all agro to the healer, a self casting buff. Asking them to make it a low level spell (think 3 or 4 here) that scales with you as you level (like shield of the Magi for mages).</P> <P>Also you are welcome. It was my posts that had over 10000 views, that had 3 dev responses, that got you and all other healers a ranged item equippable. But I am just a troll so I dont expect you to equip anything there. </P> <P>You may not agree with me, you may not like me, but do not for one second think that I am not looking out for even the little people like you.</P> <P>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.<BR></P>

[Sorano]

It's at times like this I really wish we had the /ignore function in forums.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR>It's at times like this I really wish we had the /ignore function in forums. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL!! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <P>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You keep bringing this up.  What you fail to realize is that on a single target yours group heal is about 1.5:1 of ours.  We can only get that 4:1if every single member of the group has taken significant damage, which is rare at best.  Without knowing the exact number I would say 90+% of groups have a single target taking damage.  So in more than 90% of the instances your group special is better, and the other 10% we are equal or better.  But oh thats right, you are a templar, you want to be better in all situations, hands down.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because everything I have stated is absolutely truth. I do not have a following. I have people who agree with me on the subject that is my bandwagon or crusade right now. Healer (all healer) soloability sucks right now. We should be able to complete the 40% of the quests for solos in a reasonable fashion. I have called for most importantly Templars DPS to be fixed knowing full well if they scale up Templars then they will fix Wardens and Inquisitors to go with it. </P> <P>I have for months been asking for an offensive stance for ALL Healers. A DS type ability that would add all agro to the healer, a self casting buff. Asking them to make it a low level spell (think 3 or 4 here) that scales with you as you level (like shield of the Magi for mages).</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Also you are welcome. It was my posts that had over 10000 views, that had 3 dev responses, that got you and all other healers a ranged item equippable. But I am just a troll so I dont expect you to equip anything there. </FONT></P> <P>You may not agree with me, you may not like me, but do not for one second think that I am not looking out for even the little people like you.</P> <P>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No cow you started the thread asking for a sling other people asked for some stat boosts btw I still can't equip a ranged item so please try harder on your thread to get healers a ranged item I really want to use that sling or bow :/ you started the thread asking for a sling others advanced it by asking for some sort of stat boost or by being able to equip a symbol etc. lol its funny to see how much you love yourself werent you colecting the hard facts on the vanguard boards? may I advise you doctor to return to your testing and maybe post the hard facts on these boards?</P> <P>ah well must say i think youre funny cow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 AM</span>

[Sorano]

Actually if you want real irony, if you look at that thread on page 2, I'm one of the first people to suggest allowing priests and mages to equip symbols in the ranged slot. I even provide an example of a buckler and Tarton's Wheel! Now that's funny! :smileyvery-happy: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But don't even bother using logic to argue with Cow. You only succeed in feeding the troll.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <P>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You keep bringing this up.  What you fail to realize is that on a single target yours group heal is about 1.5:1 of ours.  We can only get that 4:1if every single member of the group has taken significant damage, which is rare at best.  Without knowing the exact number I would say 90+% of groups have a single target taking damage.  So in more than 90% of the instances your group special is better, and the other 10% we are equal or better.  But oh thats right, you are a templar, you want to be better in all situations, hands down.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice try though factually incorrect.

[AzraelAzgard]

I wish you weren't a Templar Cow, you make our community look bad.

[JDragon]

Every class has someone like that it seems... <div></div>

[Mor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR>I wish you weren't a Templar Cow, you make our community look bad. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I feel sorry for the fury community if you really have rolled one.<BR>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Yup, then feel bad for the Templar, Monk, Fury, Warlock, Conjuror classes because i have toons that are all of them. I find it funny though that you guys do not see the problems the Templar community have. You feel as though Clerics in general and Templars specifically should be beneath you for something that was not the fault of Templars at all. I do not blame Furies or Wardens for being better healers (at times) now. I embrace it. What I do not embrace is the fact that almost all healer classes are better than Templars on many fronts and the only thing Templars can say they have is exactly 2 spells that make them worthwhile. Focused Benefaction and our large direct heal line. That is it. </P> <P>At least I am now finding a use for my Templar. He is 10% shy of 57 so I can always use him as a harvester for my twinks uhm other characters coming up.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <P>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You keep bringing this up.  What you fail to realize is that on a single target yours group heal is about 1.5:1 of ours.  We can only get that 4:1if every single member of the group has taken significant damage, which is rare at best.  Without knowing the exact number I would say 90+% of groups have a single target taking damage.  So in more than 90% of the instances your group special is better, and the other 10% we are equal or better.  But oh thats right, you are a templar, you want to be better in all situations, hands down.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What you fail to realize is you have a GROUP HEAL to heal (wait for it) a GROUP. Use a solo heal for a single target. Your Group heal When using it what it is designed for (group healing duh.) is up to 4 times as effective as any other classes. That is imbalanced.

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>I heal fine, I can heal better than most other priests during most situtions because I know my class and how to use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only problems I have with Templars are non-existant spell fixes of broken and pointless spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One spell is a heal and being a proc heal on mob death its hardly a priest balancing dilema.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Know your class, we are fine. A little balancing with self buffed manapools is my only issue vs the other priests.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[Shennr]

<P>Hey that is a good idea for you too Cow.</P> <P>Why don't you just Mooooooooove on along</P>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:08 PM</span>

[Unmask]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Spagma wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Cowdenicus wrote: <p>P.S. If you think for one second that Group Specialty heals are balanced yet, you ARE WRONG. 4:1 is not a balance. Even with that I wish you a good day as opposed to your snide and little backstabbing comment.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>You keep bringing this up.  What you fail to realize is that on a single target yours group heal is about 1.5:1 of ours.  We can only get that 4:1if every single member of the group has taken significant damage, which is rare at best.  Without knowing the exact number I would say 90+% of groups have a single target taking damage.  So in more than 90% of the instances your group special is better, and the other 10% we are equal or better.  But oh thats right, you are a templar, you want to be better in all situations, hands down.</div> <hr> </blockquote>What you fail to realize is you have a GROUP HEAL to heal (wait for it) a GROUP. Use a solo heal for a single target. Your Group heal When using it what it is designed for (group healing duh.) is up to 4 times as effective as any other classes. That is imbalanced. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Apparently what you fail to realize is just how powerful group reactives can be at healing a single target.  I wonder when that might be important...</span><div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Nice one [Removed for Content]! Why dont I post what I think is wrong?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I have done in multiple threads on the Templar forum and Spells forums!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wtg infos!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before you try and reply to me with some wit, realise you have none.</DIV>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR>What you fail to realize is you have a GROUP HEAL to heal (wait for it) a GROUP. Use a solo heal for a single target. Your Group heal When using it what it is designed for (group healing duh.) is up to 4 times as effective as any other classes. That is imbalanced. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What you fail to realize, or simply want to ignore is that the group reactive and group ward have been 100% efficient when being used on a single target.  In many situations clerics and shaman were able to stack these group spells with the single target specials for full use, and an extreme amount of healing on a single target.  This was commonplace, and in most situations, practically required, especially post revamp.  The druid group regen was treated as a divided pool, where the total amount of the group regen was similar to the total amount of the group reactive or group ward.  The problem is the regen, in order to be as effective as the reactive or ward, required a 6 man group, where all members needed healing.  This left the group regen at 1/6th or 17% efficient as either of the other group specials on a single target, yet you seem to think that was fair and balanced.  Now, knowing that most situations, I would estimate more than 90%, are groups where only one person is receiving damage.  This exasperated the imbalance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The group regen has been improved, and now is about 66% the efficiency of a reactive or ward on a single target, and yes this sets the scale to start at .66 and ramp up to 4x  in a case where all 6 party members are damaged.  While you keep getting stuck on the 4x, you seem to not realize that this rarely ever happens, to the point of being less than 1% of encounters.  So this leaves the group reactive better in 90+% of the encounters, and the group regen is better in less than 10%, and only 4x in less than 1%.  You don't even want us to have that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like this, then you had better start a campaign to get all group specials reduced to a divided pool of HP.  Meaning that when you use your group reactive, and someone takes damage, every member of the group is healed for 1/6th the current value.  The group ward would ward each player in the group for 1/6th the total amount of the ward.  These spells would become useless as they would only be effective in less than 1% of the encounters.  This is exactly the way the group regen worked, and this is why it was completely useless.  The other clerics and shaman can thank you for getting their once useful spells completely nerfed, because you want to make sure no class can heal better than yours, in any situation , no matter how remote.</DIV>

[Dalchar]

I <3 Spagma

[Stjarna Kvar]

Thanks for considering the Templar plight from a Warden Point of View. I for one am glad you got some luv... it was desparately needed. The reason I rolled a Templar in the first place was due to the fact that my wife's druid kept getting munched trying to be Main Healer in our little group. /sigh There are days I miss my Trouby.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dalcharis wrote:<BR>I <3 Spagma <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Me 2.</P> <P>..as Templar, I always stack group and single reactives on the MT....that's one for the group in case of an AE and 2 for the MT in case of a big first hit.   Very effective solution.  I do this the same way as Warden...I use group regen on a single target when it's the best choice.  If it's wasted on 5 of the 6 members at the time..hey, oh well...it worked for the guy who needed it.<BR></P>

[Yirabeth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><div></div>Keep my name out of  your filthy sewer of a mouth and I would not have responded to you petulant child. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>I guess my main question is why isn't this thread locked yet...lol It gets worse from here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Some people are determined to be unhappy. It's just the way it is, best way to handle it is smile and don't dwell upon it... (this is in no way saying the templars are completely balanced ubertastic etc. I have no idea, as I've not gone to their boards nor do I play one. I'm just saying..some people are happy being unhappy...lol ) ~Yira Edit: well there's a reason they call me Yiraduh..*g* it gets worse above here, since I responded to a post part way through...lol</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Yirabeth on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 PM</span>