What remains to be fixed for Wardens [Archive]

View Full Version : What remains to be fixed for Wardens

TimidMou

10-26-2005, 09:19 AM

<DIV>Well, I have been quite happy with the latest changes to the Warden class, but lest we all get too excited and forget to patch the remaining problems, I thought I should list the major problems as I see it that still remain. Feel free to add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Hoarfrost doesn't do double damage to elementals, even though it says it does in the spell description</DIV> <DIV>2. Tunare's Watch is not a spell that wardens, in general, look forward to getting. Considering that it is our level 52 special spell, it should be adjusted to be more in line with the level 52 spells of other classes</DIV> <DIV>3. Protecting Grove can have limited usage due to its fragility. The same is true but to a lesser extent, for Nature's Ally. We would like to be less limited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Arielle Nightshade

10-26-2005, 11:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TimidMouse wrote: <DIV>Well, I have been quite happy with the latest changes to the Warden class, but lest we all get too excited and forget to patch the remaining problems, I thought I should list the major problems as I see it that still remain. Feel free to add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Hoarfrost doesn't do double damage to elementals, even though it says it does in the spell description</DIV> <DIV>2. Tunare's Watch is not a spell that wardens, in general, look forward to getting. Considering that it is our level 52 special spell, it should be adjusted to be more in line with the level 52 spells of other classes</DIV> <DIV>3. Protecting Grove can have limited usage due to its fragility. The same is true but to a lesser extent, for Nature's Ally. We would like to be less limited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Also, I think there is still issue with raiding (buffs and heals stacking..?) ...mentioning it, hoping for feedback. I'm not raiding ..and probably won't. Still interested, though! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raman

10-26-2005, 11:21 AM

Also, Hierophantic Genesis is a useless spell that is additionally made obsolete 4 levels later when we get the upgrade to our regen. So really, all 4 our our special spells need to be reworked. When you compare them to those of a fury, it is shockingly one-sided in their favor.

Dragonreal

10-26-2005, 12:47 PM

Hoarfrost actually DOES do double dmg to elementals.. the problem is that some mobs that appear elemental don't seem to be flagged as such; those little water globe things (sea spray I think) outside the SS zone-in to silent city yield double dmg, also the spiders just inside silent city at the SS zone-in give double dmg too. So it's not our spell that's broken, it's the mobs taht are broken.

Maelakai

10-26-2005, 03:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonrealms wrote: Hoarfrost actually DOES do double dmg to elementals.. the problem is that some mobs that appear elemental don't seem to be flagged as such; those little water globe things (sea spray I think) outside the SS zone-in to silent city yield double dmg, also the spiders just inside silent city at the SS zone-in give double dmg too. So it's not our spell that's broken, it's the mobs taht are broken. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Aye, Hoarfrost seems to be working fine for mobs that are flagged as elementals. The other points listed are all valid. HG is not likely to ever get used because of the self stun and low heal. My suggestion would be to tack some other benefits on to the spell (similar but different from porc) to make it desireable to cast). Our cold/heat ward needs to either have a greatly reduced cast time or have it's duration increased. 36s is not realistic as this spell has VERY limited use (as most times the tank can be capped vs. heat/cold without using the spell). Also, and please don't take this badly, the communication before the last change was great. Now that our heals have been bandaged we have been abandoned... that's not a nice feeling =(

Arathon

10-26-2005, 03:51 PM

We are definately better off than we were before. Thank you for the changes you have made, But we do have a few issues left to deal with. 1) Heirophantic Genesis - As stated above it is now useless. It heals for less than our baseline regen, and it has the negatives of rooting you and stifling you. This spell probably needs the most work. 2) Protecting Grove - Make it immune to AE unless it is directly targeted by the Mob. This will at least give it some use, and would also help with raid utility. 3) Raid Utility - If you dont want to make sweeping changes, put back the stun effect on Sandstorm line for epics. The combo of the protecting grove change above and this would give us raid utility. 4) Tunare's Watch - Like it is stated above, we need a useful level 52 special in line with what other classes get. If your against changing the basics of the spell, then look at duration. Since all casters get a get out of death free card, how about changing the duration of the spell. Make it a 2 second cast, 5 minute duration, 3 minute recast. Once activated it is consumed on that group member. Again this would also help address the issue of raid utility. 5) Buffs - Our buffs are lackluster, but then again so are most classes. If the above changes are made, we can get by without further buff changes. If you dont make the changes above, then we really need to have a rework of our buffs to make us useful, and desireable. We need something to distinguish us from furies. IMO, if the changes to 1-4 above are made, that does give us flavor and a reason to chose Warden over fury. 6) Exhaltion of the Untamed - Duration definately needs to be longer. As it is, as a 36 second buff, it has very little practical use. An increase in duration would at least make this a viable spell. Two Second cast, Two minute duration, with a 2 minute recast would make this a usable spell. Arathania - 58th Level WardenMessage Edited by Arathon on 10-26-2005 07:54 AM

LordOlr

10-26-2005, 04:55 PM

as others pointed out Exhaltion of the Untamed is useless atm. the way the spell works atm the only way to use it is to precast it in order to protect the group vs some "on pull aoe" but it creates too much aggro for that and u usually help ur group more when ur alive and are able to heal... the ressistances on it are completely useless as getting to the max ressists with a warden/troub is possible, take a potion or a wiz/conj and u do it easily.

Maelakai

10-26-2005, 06:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arathon wrote: We are definately better off than we were before. Thank you for the changes you have made, But we do have a few issues left to deal with. 1) Heirophantic Genesis - As stated above it is now useless. It heals for less than our baseline regen, and it has the negatives of rooting you and stifling you. This spell probably needs the most work. 2) Protecting Grove - Make it immune to AE unless it is directly targeted by the Mob. This will at least give it some use, and would also help with raid utility. 3) Raid Utility - If you dont want to make sweeping changes, put back the stun effect on Sandstorm line for epics. The combo of the protecting grove change above and this would give us raid utility. 4) Tunare's Watch - Like it is stated above, we need a useful level 52 special in line with what other classes get. If your against changing the basics of the spell, then look at duration. Since all casters get a get out of death free card, how about changing the duration of the spell. Make it a 2 second cast, 5 minute duration, 3 minute recast. Once activated it is consumed on that group member. Again this would also help address the issue of raid utility. 5) Buffs - Our buffs are lackluster, but then again so are most classes. If the above changes are made, we can get by without further buff changes. If you dont make the changes above, then we really need to have a rework of our buffs to make us useful, and desireable. We need something to distinguish us from furies. IMO, if the changes to 1-4 above are made, that does give us flavor and a reason to chose Warden over fury. 6) Exhaltion of the Untamed - Duration definately needs to be longer. As it is, as a 36 second buff, it has very little practical use. An increase in duration would at least make this a viable spell. Two Second cast, Two minute duration, with a 2 minute recast would make this a usable spell. Arathania - 58th Level Warden Message Edited by Arathon on 10-26-2005 07:54 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I really like the idea on #4, this would certainly make the spell worthwhile. Better yet if (on top of the duration fix) it could give MORE than 400hp back to the tank (say 1.5k or something just to keep him/her from going down again right away).

MaldekTM

10-26-2005, 06:18 PM

I think what they did so far has been a great improvement from what they broke. I still harbor a stifled amount of resentment for changing Wardens from Direct Heal kings to Power Efficient Regeners a year into the game, but I've been playing Sony products for several years and this is simply par for the course. Here's what I think remains in terms of defining this class: <OL> <LI>Distinguish Warden Buffs from other priests. My suggestion: Group In-Combat Power Regen <HR> </LI> <LI>Reconsider the usefulness of Hierophantic Genesis. My suggestion: an Extra Large Direct Heal with a long recast <HR> </LI> <LI>Re-examine the Tunare spells. My suggestion: add a Ward effect to allow time for healing <HR> </LI> <LI>Fix the Tree i.e. Protecting Grove My suggestion: The tree should be an object, not an NPC. Unkillable. <HR> </LI></OL> 1. Most importantly, our BUFFS need a signifigant distinction. There needs to be a reason for a Warden to be in group other than a weak augmenting of HP & Mitigation. My suggestion in the Healing Consolidation thread remains : Power Regen In-Combat for the Group. In EQ1 the druid buff gave mana regen and it was appreciated. Cleric Shaman and Druid buffs combined to form the best buff-set a tank could acheive, and I think the same should be true in EQ2. As it stands, the MT group has no use for a druid, and my raid guild will often take a conjurer before me. Doesn't seem right that a mage can buff better than a priest. 2. As stated above, Hierophantic Genesis is a lackluster reward for acheiving Level 50. While it was previously godlike with a 700+ heal per tick, now it's a hinderance to the healing process. I would be thrilled to see this turned into a 1000+ DH with a 36 second recast. We need something to get our tank out of the redline, and HG could be changed to be the Warden version of the Fury's Back into the Fray. Currently there's no reason to stack this spell on a Chloro / Wild Growth because with the 36 second stun, it's better to cast regular regen twice than have this spell going. Tunare's Watch and the "Death Pact" series of spells. My only grief with these spells is that I feel they're just adding debt and armor damage. The target needs to be revived with more than just a Wisdom bonus... when you're facing death, the last thing you really want is a +WIS buff. I would say it should fire with a 1000 point ward, so the target returns to life with the same little nub of health, but with a better chance of getting the heals to bring them back to a safe health range. Lastly, the current form of Protecting Grove is a silly spell. It could be great, a very class-defining ability with visual appeal, role-playing potential and even healing usefulness... but summoning something that could die to a loose Wild Swing from an orc more or less ruins this ability. The Tree should be a symbol of the strengh of the forest, it should not be an NPC. It should be an immovable object that is unkillable and remains for the duration of the spell. Otherwise, it's just a dummy and a waste of time.

Sorano

10-26-2005, 06:29 PM

Our raid utility needs some serious attention. At the moment, because we bring nothing useful to the MT group we are just placed in one of the other groups, and our heals just do not cut it. We are reduced to just using our DHs and they do nothing to save a tank who's in trouble. Our group heals cannot be stacked on the tank as we are out of group, so a warden in a raid is actually a very inefficient choice of healer. Simply put, any other healer would be a better choice for the spot. Please let the stun on Duststorm effect epics again and for crying out loud look at the power consumption on the spell. It's absolutely ridiculous. Power is at a premium in raids now, and even with both a bard and chanter in group, healers still run low on power. There is absolutely no feasible way for a warden to keep Duststorm up and still heal for the duration of a fight. Even fighting T5 epics, I could not risk having Duststorm up because I would have run OOP halfway through the fight. Tunare's Watch is an absolutely useless spell, especially in a raid. If you're not in the MT group there is simply no reason to use your save because it doesn't wipe the aggro list, so even if you did save the warlock who pulled aggro he will die in the next second because the mob will simply flatten him when he comes back on 400 hps. TW needs to have a longer duration, or even better have a bigger heal attached. Something like 2k hps. That would distinguish it from the run of the mill priest save and make it more worthy of the label marquee spell. And just for a laugh here is actual log info from a raid when I put TW up and it saved me. It clearly demonstrates how limited the use of this spell is. ((1130330817)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:57 2005] You draw upon nature's powers of rebirth and renewal. (1130330817)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:57 2005] Elyssa protects your life with Tunare's Watch! (1130330819)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:59 2005] Asaad Ahk Atum hits YOU for 12797 points of piercing damage. (1130330819)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:59 2005] You begin to cast a healing spell (1130330819)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:59 2005] You regain consciousness! (1130330819)[Thu Oct 27 01:46:59 2005] YOU heal YOURSELF for 465 hit points. (1130330820)[Thu Oct 27 01:47:00 2005] Your flourishing health returns to normal. (1130330822)[Thu Oct 27 01:47:02 2005] Asaad Ahk Atum hits YOU for 13330 points of piercing damage. (1130330822)[Thu Oct 27 01:47:02 2005] Asaad Ahk Atum has killed you

Mor

10-26-2005, 07:36 PM

Are all these issues in <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=9712" target=_blank>this stickied thread</a>? I think most of them are. I know Caerwyn is trying to keep it up to date. It would be nice to keep all this stuff collected in one place.

Shennr

10-26-2005, 09:02 PM

Duststorm/Sandstorm need to be re-evaluated. This spell is our key spell in our buffing line, much like the clerics give Mitigation/HP and the Shamans have huge Stat increases. Our defensive buff should have a longer duration, say 15 minutes. Also a +3 defense increase from the master 1 duststorm (22 defense) to an adept 3 Sandstorm (25 defense) is a slap in the face, especially since other classes are catching up to us in defense buffing. <UL> <LI>Heirophantic Genesis needs to be relooked at</LI> <LI>Protecting grove needs to be immune to AE's since it is an AE heal and I also get griped at in raids because it is honking huge. </LI> <LI>Tunare's Watch needs a longer duration so it can be a reliable spell. Also a higher initial heal over the other priests saving spells. Maybe even be allowed to save a single target 2 times.</LI> <LI>Some priest get an in combat health regen so why not give the power buffing priests a power regen for some utility on raids, it would be less then bard and enchanter regens of course. After all we did lose our group power buff.</LI> <LI>This is only a suggestion but make the wolf form change with different teired spells. This would also apply to the other priests forms that progress through the lvl and I know for a fact that in EQ1 they did this with the Necro Lich form spells.</LI></UL> Message Edited by Shennron on 10-26-2005 10:09 AM

Croa

10-26-2005, 10:46 PM

Agree on tunare's watch.. it should be better for it being an ancient spell. I'd like to see it replaced with a full mez/root/stifle ability of some sort. I do not like having no ability to stop a mob from casting even just for a couple seconds. Aside from duststorm but that's obviously more situational. Genesis needs some work to make it useful still. Keep in mind that it's a lvl50 spell so I wouldn't expect it to be super-uber at lvl60. My biggest issue is with lack of skills beyond healing and dps. Not much for debuffs or even buffs for that matter. I like the buffs I have, but they seem in line with other classes whereas I'd expect a warden to be more defensively focused than other priests. I'd like to see more in-combat buffing ability. Maybe some different "skin types" that might either increase defense on a single target or increase mitigation or agility or whatever. Or even some form of natural spirit that is summoned and intercepts some damage. Or maybe the same spirit idea but you cast it on a mob and for a short duration it reduces any damage done by that mob by 50% or something like that. In other words, more variety to what we can do in combat to help the group. Not that I'm not enjoying my Warden. I'm just putting out suggestions on making the class more distinct and interesting.Message Edited by Croake on 10-26-2005 11:47 AM

Sorano

10-27-2005, 05:58 AM

Actually a really simple fix to TW is to make it either a complete heal like a pally/templar rez, or have it heal a significant amount of hps like I stated in an earlier post of like 2k. At the moment it is simply functioning as a 400hp heal on a 5min timer. It actually makes me laugh becomes it's something like the fury BITF spell, except the target has to be at 0% health :smileyvery-happy: Having it heal more hps would make it a far more useful spell, not only for everyday xping but also in a raiding context.

Shennr

10-27-2005, 08:53 AM

I was looking at the Aspect line of spells tonight and noticed that their range is only 10m. I would think that this buff needs to be 20m or more like the other buffs so that the MT can have it while all the healers are at max heal range. What is the point of casting it on the MT right now if he/she is not even in reach to receive any of its benefits. So adding to my list is increasing the range on the Aspect line of spells. Message Edited by Shennron on 10-26-2005 09:53 PM

TimidMou

10-28-2005, 06:24 PM

I like many of the suggestions, one observation: The full heal on rez idea: great idea but I can foresee that Paladins will complain about it, since right now they are the rez specialists and if we can full-heal-rez that will take it away from them.

Dragonreal

10-28-2005, 11:55 PM

The temps would prolyl also complain about it too because they also get a full heal rez (btw I think the suggestion was actually the grp heal-instead-of-death proccing a full-heal instead of the 500ish it does now; bit different than a full-heal rez)

Raman

10-29-2005, 05:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TimidMouse wrote: I like many of the suggestions, one observation: The full heal on rez idea: great idea but I can foresee that Paladins will complain about it, since right now they are the rez specialists and if we can full-heal-rez that will take it away from them. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think they will complain too much... the reasonable ones, at least. I mean, the fact that a fighter class can perform a task traditionally performed by priests better than priests is so absurd that I am shocked every day that passes without the situation being fixed.

Tenol

10-29-2005, 07:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramanga wrote: Also, Hierophantic Genesis is a useless spell that is additionally made obsolete 4 levels later when we get the upgrade to our regen. So really, all 4 our our special spells need to be reworked. When you compare them to those of a fury, it is shockingly one-sided in their favor. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't see HG useless at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is hitting the fan, you personally can't keep up, all your heals are on him, and still his HP is dropping..... HG stacks with everything else. Drop every heal you have, regen and all, and finish it off with the HG to add even more HoT to the person thats getting taken down. With its fast cast, and ability to be removed once things get situated, I have to say HG is a great life saving spell when its throw in the mix with every other heal. By itself... eh.... but again another situational spell for healers......</DIV>

Sorano

10-30-2005, 02:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tenolas wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't see HG useless at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is hitting the fan, you personally can't keep up, all your heals are on him, and still his HP is dropping..... HG stacks with everything else. Drop every heal you have, regen and all, and finish it off with the HG to add even more HoT to the person thats getting taken down. With its fast cast, and ability to be removed once things get situated, I have to say HG is a great life saving spell when its throw in the mix with every other heal. By itself... eh.... but again another situational spell for healers......</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Since I normally group with a Templar we have been using Sanctuary a lot when the proverbial poop hits the fan. That allows us to triple stack the tank with single/group/HG/FB heals and his hp bar NEVER leaves the green. We basically forget about him and can actually heal other people. I'm certainly going to miss the triple stacking ability when Sanctuary gets fixed in the next LU. Removing the stun on HG would be great for wardens, but the problem is they won't be able to just take it off our lvl 50 spell. They would have to do it for everyone else as well, and that would seriously overpower healers. I think the only solution to HG is to up its healing to something like 400hps every 2 secs, while preserving the stun. The templar FB heals 400hps or so every hit, and I think changing HG to something similar would be a workable option.

Saben01

10-30-2005, 03:23 AM

<div></div>Alot of our buffs have become pretty useless in raid situations , would be nice to use aspect of the hawk for extra resists on the tank - but its only a 10 meter radius which means it isn't gonna be on them in an AE situation, thorncoat is also only 10 meter range which means in an AE situation it isnt gonna be on the tank - tree useless in AE situations because it dies in one hit -- and face it , our buffs suck, when we have the lowest mitigation buff of all the priest we arent wanted in MT group we get replaced with furies -- now im not saying we should have the best mit buff but me and a fury friend agree that SoE has their description of furies and wardens mixed up when looking at the defensive and offensive aspect of the situation -- we are not very defensive in nature when we have the crappiest buffs of the two classes. alot of our buffs need to be reworked for us to be something than another healer in the raid. PS : undergrowth one of our only 2 debuffs does not work on epic mobs. I understand that the root shouldnt, but the AGI debuff should, and i could have swore that it said somewhere that it was fixed so that it would. <div></div>Message Edited by Saben01 on 10-29-2005 04:44 PM