Warden or Fury in the MT Group?

[Maelakai]

<DIV>Hey Guys,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've only recently started raiding on a regular basis, and I am one of the only Wardens in my guild.  Now, we have done some experimenting with the MT group, and we have found that the fury class can buff physical mitigation much better than the warden class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, with a Fury, Inquisitor and Templar in the MT group the tank will have much better mitigation than if the fury is replaced by a warden.  Also, with an Inquisitor, Templar and Mystic in the MT group the avoidance can be brought all the way up to 100%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why then do I read that Wardens are one of the holy trinity of MT raid groups?  I'm curious to know not so much to get my MT spot back, but to understand if there is maybe something I am doing wrong in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance!</DIV>

[Dortel]

<P>What is the quality of your spirit of the oak spell and duststorm? Whats the quality of spells from your fury?</P> <P>How much of a physical damage mitigation difference are you talking about?  You also bring to the table excellent heat cold mental divine and magic mitigations. most raid mobs 1 or more of those damage types as well.</P> <P>Is it just your mitigation? do you have your group poison and elemental cures?</P> <p>Message Edited by Dorteler on <span class=date_text>07-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 AM</span>

[Sepp]

I am a fury in a very active raiding guild, and I must say: there is no way for a fury to outperform an equally upgraded warden in the MT group. Duststorm + elemental buffs far outperform our physical mitigation, espaecially if you have a bard to help up the MTs defense as well. Also, your level 50 superheal is group-only, and does much more good than our level 50 group-only super damage shield... who cares that the tank is doing 300 dps if he dies, right? As a side point, warden regen spells overwrite fury regens, even if the fury's regen is a higher quality level, so you are in the position to keep the tank alive better than a fury anyhow. In conclusion, I would say to put your warden in the MT group and leave the fury in the dps group, so his/her many group-only damage procs will go off, instead of being wasted on a bunch of healers and only really being useful on the tank.

[Dragonreal]

idk about warden regens overwriting fury regens... there are a ton of furys in my guild and only a couple 50 wardens and my chloro is only ad1 and all the furys ahve ad3 wild bloodflow; my chloro has never overwritten their WB and I only bother casting it anymore when we need boosted elemental resist.

[Eneg]

I'll say pretty much what I've said in response to your tell.. Wardens are in MT groups pretty much solely as DustStorm bots. Other than that we dont do anything that any other priest class cant do. But since the AGI nerf back in Decemberish, MT groups are extremely dependent on DEF buffs. If mitigation is a big issue for your guild, I wonder about your MT setup. Typically the MT doesn't rely on priests for AC buffs so much as they rely on another fighter for the buffs. A happy, healthy MT group should include a zerker or SK casting their buffs on the MT. A cursory examination of our buffs as a whole show that we mainly excel in AGI buffs, while clerics excel in AC buffs. Our ideal MT group consists of Guardian/Zerker/Templar/Warden/Troub/Conjurer. With this group the MT is 100% for both mitigation and avoidance, with hitpoints around 11,000. Some people aren't comfortable with only 2 healers in the MT group, but I dont see any other healer that needs to be in the group (until wards are fixed). Inquisitor group reactives pale in comparison to a templars, not to mention they have hp buff stacking issues. Shaman group wards are near useless. Druid group HoT's are a joke. In conclusion, the only time I'd ever create a MT group with a fury in it would be for their 50th damage shield in time-sensitive DPS fights such as the Zek raid and the Traveler even in SE. <div></div>

[Maelakai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Enegar wrote:<BR>I'll say pretty much what I've said in response to your tell.. Wardens are in MT groups pretty much solely as DustStorm bots. Other than that we dont do anything that any other priest class cant do. But since the AGI nerf back in Decemberish, MT groups are extremely dependent on DEF buffs.<BR><BR>If mitigation is a big issue for your guild, I wonder about your MT setup. Typically the MT doesn't rely on priests for AC buffs so much as they rely on another fighter for the buffs. A happy, healthy MT group should include a zerker or SK casting their buffs on the MT. A cursory examination of our buffs as a whole show that we mainly excel in AGI buffs, while clerics excel in AC buffs.<BR><BR>Our ideal MT group consists of Guardian/Zerker/Templar/Warden/Troub/Conjurer. With this group the MT is 100% for both mitigation and avoidance, with hitpoints around 11,000. Some people aren't comfortable with only 2 healers in the MT group, but I dont see any other healer that needs to be in the group (until wards are fixed). Inquisitor group reactives pale in comparison to a templars, not to mention they have hp buff stacking issues. Shaman group wards are near useless. Druid group HoT's are a joke.<BR><BR>In conclusion, the only time I'd ever create a MT group with a fury in it would be for their 50th damage shield in time-sensitive DPS fights such as the Zek raid and the Traveler even in SE.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks again for the information Deus... Right now we are using the following MT group setup:</P> <P>Zerker - MT<BR>Guardian - Buffs MT<BR>Templar - Group Reactives/Buffs/Debuffs<BR>Inquisitor - Single Target Reactives/Buffs/Debuffs<BR>Troub - Buffs<BR>Fury - Buffs (Physical Mitigation)</P> <P>Unfortunatley we do not have a Conj... not sure where they all are... We do have a necro though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'll bring it up with the raid leader and maybe we can play with the MT group layout a bit and see what we can do without the Conj... cheers mate, and thanks again!<BR></P>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Maelakai wrote: <p>Thanks again for the information Deus... Right now we are using the following MT group setup:</p> <p>Zerker - MTGuardian - Buffs MTTemplar - Group Reactives/Buffs/DebuffsInquisitor - Single Target Reactives/Buffs/DebuffsTroub - BuffsFury - Buffs (Physical Mitigation)</p> <p>Unfortunatley we do not have a Conj... not sure where they all are... We do have a necro though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>I'll bring it up with the raid leader and maybe we can play with the MT group layout a bit and see what we can do without the Conj... cheers mate, and thanks again!</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, a Conjurer isn't really a must have, but we like to have a caster to complete the Arcane Aegis HO, which is a decent mitigation buff. Conj's just make the most sense because of their Geotic Brand/Blazing Presence AC buff lines. You're probably doing yourself a disservice by having 2 clerics in the same group as well because of conflicting group buff lines.. you'd be better off replacing the Inquiz with a shaman. Regardless, try throwing a mage in MT group and get an Aegis, you may be suprised on the difference it makes.</span><div></div>

[Kyralis]

As a Warden in the MT group I can also add about 2k heat and cold resists to the main tank, which can help a lot. Duststorm has already been mentioned- 10-11 defense can make an enormous difference; if that wears off during a fight it is immediatley noticeable. Our own MT group setup uses a Monk instead of a Zerker: Guardian Monk Warden Mystic Templar Bard (Troubador or Dirge depending on who's on that night) We've tried the zerker in the MT group but had better luck overall with a Monk in there. I would definitely not put a fury in the MT group except in the situations that Enegar noted. Our defense buff is simply too useful. <div></div>

[Dortel]

<P>Anyone know the numbers on the physical mitigation provided by a fury?</P> <P>Master I of Spirit of the Oak provides 550 to the groups physical mitigations,  is fury that much better?</P>

[Maelakai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dorteler wrote:<BR> <P>Anyone know the numbers on the physical mitigation provided by a fury?</P> <P>Master I of Spirit of the Oak provides 550 to the groups physical mitigations,  is fury that much better?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe the fury physical buff is similar, but the group HoT the furies use increases physical as well by 200 and change.</P>

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelakai wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dorteler wrote:<BR> <P>Anyone know the numbers on the physical mitigation provided by a fury?</P> <P>Master I of Spirit of the Oak provides 550 to the groups physical mitigations,  is fury that much better?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe the fury physical buff is similar, but the group HoT the furies use increases physical as well by 200 and change.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>200 mitigation isn't even a 10th as helpful as 10 more defense.  Not to mention we do buff mitigation with our heals too, just happens to be fire and cold mitigation, heh.   Hopefully you'll be able to show your raid leader the error in the current line of thinking. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <p>Message Edited by Ravenmist on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[LordOlr]

hmm when i have the right classes available i use neither warden nor fury in the MTG. yes dust ist nice but u can get to 100% avoidance without a warden easily and with the latest mobs changes the problem isnt  to cover large dmg over time but large dmg spikes (hello wrath) and the warden has lil to offer to buff hp. "best" MTG setup for max hp (10k hp without fabled gear and potions should be possible ... not 100% sure tho) is: guard zerker mystic templar conj troub wondering what a monk has to offer for the 1300 hp the zerker could add ... /me looks at caerwyn adding a dirge for the troub might make sense when u face poison/etc aoes but then again with resistances ingame there are lil really badass aoes left and the dirge  doesnt really add much hp. <div></div>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>LordOlrik wrote:yes dust ist nice but u can get to 100% avoidance without a warden easily<hr></blockquote>Which means what? Your tank will be badass against level 50 mobs? Just to clarify, that 100% avoidance figure does not mean you are capped on defense. (I know you know that, but you'd be suprised at how many people dont) And if WoF is that much of a problem, I'd work on crushing mitigation more than I would max HP*. *Assuming you are fighting an innate crushing mob, as most of them are nowadays.</span><div></div>

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Enegar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordOlrik wrote:<BR>yes dust ist nice but u can get to 100% avoidance without a warden easily<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Which means what? Your tank will be badass against level 50 mobs? Just to clarify, that 100% avoidance figure does not mean you are capped on defense. (I know you know that, but you'd be suprised at how many people dont)<BR><BR>And if WoF is that much of a problem, I'd work on crushing mitigation more than I would max HP*. <BR><BR>*Assuming you are fighting an innate crushing mob, as most of them are nowadays.<BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>^ Well put, the poster above you has much to learn still I sense. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LordOlr]

the mobs i bother about are usually lvl57. and yes mitigation is nearly as impossible as hp. <div></div>

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordOlrik wrote:<BR>the mobs i bother about are usually lvl57. and yes mitigation is nearly as impossible as hp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Did anyone understand what he was trying to say here?  I see the level 57 part which means he must realize that was the posters point.  DustStorm > then a little mitigation or hp since your tank is not going to be 100% vs a level 57 mob.  If he was.. he wouldn't be getting hit at all..... seems sorta like common sense right?  </P> <P>I mean, even if you saw the avoidance 100% number and completely missed the part where thats 100% vs a level 50 mob (not 57.. )  when the tank was still getting hit you'd think a bell would go off or something and say, Hey.. he's not avoiding every hit. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Not like we need to defend the point really I guess, most of the the really good raiding guilds have already figured this stuff out.</P>

[LordOlr]

ok once more: with the latest changes to the high end raid mobs (hello wrath) i dont think (and so do many others) that avoidance doesnt matter that much (anymore?). the quality of a tank is defined by his hp and his mitigation. avoidance might help (duststorm is still nice vs all those adds in meetings of minds) but vs the contested raid mobs i would not add a warden to the mtg when i got the choise simply because the warden doesnt add hp. my prefered mtg setup is in one of the posts above. <div></div>

[Kyralis]

The MT setup I described above is simply our general one. When we really need maximum hitpoints, we'll put a zerker in, but most of the time we find the increased avoidance more useful overall. <div></div>

[Tenol]

<DIV>My guild on Najena, im only one of 2 50 wardens in the guild atm. If a Warden is on and available to raid she, or I am always in the MT group. I usually have a designated spot in MT group due to my spell upgrades. But back to the subject.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MT group setup:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Zerker</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Warden</DIV> <DIV>Trouba</DIV> <DIV>Conjuror(if hes on) if not we add a mage class that can help with resistances based on our Target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tenolas Naturewalker</DIV> <DIV>50 Warden</DIV> <DIV>Shadow Syndicate</DIV> <DIV>Najena Server</DIV>

[Dortel]

<DIV>After reading more of this I would say this....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you learn how to be a millionaire from someone living on the streets or someone deep in debt?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see alot advice on whats the best MT group.  But have those people killed vox latley? or venekor in SoL? K'dal? Faroth Mal in BAoW?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In reality the answer depends on who your fighting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The MT group for fighting Venekor can be alot different for the MT group for fighting Borxx.  Or for fighting Faroth Mal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen several diffrent forms of MT groups all of which are good for certain epics, and all of which are bad for other epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best advice is find out what each of the classes provide and tailor it to the encounter.  Dont be afraid of wiping, just be afraid of not knowing why you wiped.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dorteler on <span class=date_text>07-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:26 PM</span>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dorteler wrote:<div></div> <div>I see alot advice on whats the best MT group.  But have those people killed vox latley? or venekor in SoL? K'dal? </div> <hr></blockquote>Yes. I wouldn't be giving raid advice if I couldn't raid anything. But, you make a point. There is no one perfect MT group, but we rarely switch things around much. Advice is just advice. It's not a recipe for success.</span><div></div>

[Launceal]

<DIV>Dort's answer is the really the first one that makes sense.  There is no perfect/optimal MT group.  Every encounter is different and each class offers situational benefits.  Its just important to understand just what each offers and the reasons/tradeoffs for putting them in the MT group (and DPS group, other groups) for that matter.  The skill of the player is super important also.  There are times its better to put a more highly skilled and dependable player in the MT group than another that is perhaps a more optimal class but is not quite as sharp a player.</DIV>