Evident design flaws in warden subclass

[Exs]

<DIV>At level 30 let me tell you a bit of my warden experience. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I have only 5 concentratrion points I to try to use the best buffs first (buffs that increase mitigation rates) and then utility buffs later (buffs increasing max health/mana, etc). As the result this is my current setup for concentration buffs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protector of the forest, Willowskin, Wild spirit, Favor of the Untamed, and Perennial essence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, I noticed that I have just received Oakskin but is this spell intented to be a replacement for Favor of the Untamed? If so, why does it have little worse effects than FotU? and why only 1 level apart between the two? Does it make sense that a supposedly upgrade comes too fast and that its effects are even worse than its upgrading target? Also, why upgrade FotU (orange at my level) when other buffs such as Willowskin and Wild spirit are almost outgrown (green and yellow respectively)? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, at level 28 I had received Blessing of the earth and Healing breeze. Supposely they're upgrades for Sylvan wind and Winds of renewal. But at my level these alleged upgrades have worse hits/mana ratio than my old spells, what's the point of even using them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, at level 30 the only direct damage spell seems to be Frost. Chill and Salmekia's sparking smite are grey and their damage output is just irrelevant. This compromises my overall damage output and therefore my soloing abilities. Why waste 3 orange spell upgrades when there are two grey spells that need to be upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clearly this isn't just an accident, any average sane person would not make such a mistake. Is this how SOE wants to make wardens more defensive?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. all the new buff-spell upgrades mentioned above have adept 1 qualities, and they still do worse than my existing App4 spells. So don't givme me "Your new spells aren't doing enough because they're of App1 quality" excuse.</DIV>

[Ram]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Blessing of the earth is SUCH A JOKE of a SPELL.</FONT> :smileyvery-happy:

[Eneg]

Wardens also get the Mother-of-All defensive buffs in Dust Storm. BoE sucks, yep. Hope for a Master 1 Sylvan Wind to show up on your broker, you'll be using it at 50. <div></div>

[Ram]

<P><IMG src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/Ramia2/WindsOfRenewal.jpg">        <IMG src="http://img51.exs.cx/img51/7070/chlorostorm7ra.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>I am still using my level 14 group HoT spell at adept 3 at level 50.  Which still out heals the level 42.8 adept 3 that someone else has posted, each group member for 81 a tick vs the 71 a tick for the later one......it is really lamb that after 28 levels and 2 upgrade later we actually have a HoT group spell that heals less.....go figure that one SOE.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Do you really think that 42 points of Ward really holds out at level 50 for long.....lol.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Even with a faster tick rate on Chlorostorm I would still use Winds of Renewal over the last one we get.  Hopefully sometime in the future SOE will give us faster, stronger Group and Single HoT's that also stack with other HoT and other Druids HoTs.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Ramia on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[Thibor24]

<P>You really should use chill as well as frost.</P> <P>Chill will increase the damage frost does as well as having a nice dot.</P> <P>I still use them both at 41.</P> <P>We do have serious issues with our upgrades but it looks like the devs just want to nerf our direct heals instead.</P>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thibor24 wrote:<BR> <P>You really should use chill as well as frost.</P> <P>Chill will increase the damage frost does as well as having a nice dot.</P> <P>I still use them both at 41.</P> <P>We do have serious issues with our upgrades but it looks like the devs just want to nerf our direct heals instead.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think you mean cold snap, not chill ;P cold snap = dot + elemental debuff chill = druid level nuke <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, the oakskin buff you got is an upgrade to the vigor line (single target, 1 conc power buff), not favor of the untamed, which is its own line.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[3cho]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exsub wrote:<BR> <DIV>At level 30 let me tell you a bit of my warden experience. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I have only 5 concentratrion points I to try to use the best buffs first (buffs that increase mitigation rates) and then utility buffs later (buffs increasing max health/mana, etc). As the result this is my current setup for concentration buffs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protector of the forest, Willowskin, Wild spirit, Favor of the Untamed, and Perennial essence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, I noticed that I have just received Oakskin but is this spell intented to be a replacement for Favor of the Untamed? If so, why does it have little worse effects than FotU? and why only 1 level apart between the two? Does it make sense that a supposedly upgrade comes too fast and that its effects are even worse than its upgrading target? Also, why upgrade FotU (orange at my level) when other buffs such as Willowskin and Wild spirit are almost outgrown (green and yellow respectively)? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, at level 28 I had received Blessing of the earth and Healing breeze. Supposely they're upgrades for Sylvan wind and Winds of renewal. But at my level these alleged upgrades have worse hits/mana ratio than my old spells, what's the point of even using them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, at level 30 the only direct damage spell seems to be Frost. Chill and Salmekia's sparking smite are grey and their damage output is just irrelevant. This compromises my overall damage output and therefore my soloing abilities. Why waste 3 orange spell upgrades when there are two grey spells that need to be upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clearly this isn't just an accident, any average sane person would not make such a mistake. Is this how SOE wants to make wardens more defensive?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. all the new buff-spell upgrades mentioned above have adept 1 qualities, and they still do worse than my existing App4 spells. So don't givme me "Your new spells aren't doing enough because they're of App1 quality" excuse.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I just recently turned 33.... and I can say, things get a little better, and begin to make more sense.  At 32 and 40% and 33 you get Willowskin and Wild Spirit upgrades.  Oakskin is a replacement for VIgor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Blessing of Wind and Healing Breeze are broken :/  I dont use them either.  *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your're going to get Summer's Flame...  It's not an upgrade to Frost thogh.  It's a DD that does heat damage.  Initially it does less damage than Frost, but as you grown into it (mastery at 37 or 39) I'm sure it's damage will increase.  I still have Chill on my bar (though it's longer recast and low damage makes it's a rarely used item).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that a lot of the upgrade paths aren't clear.  When I was 29-31, I actually was confused about a lot of the upgrades as well.  ALl I can say is... things should begin to fall into place mid way 32, when the upgrade paths become clearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Protector of the Forrest (ap4), Protection of the Seasons(AD1), Favor of the Untamed(AD1), Perinniel Essence(AD1) and Blessing of the Wild(AD1).  If I'm sure I'm not going to get aggro and either a) need to buff my mana, or b) need to buff someone elses mana (a mage, or the main healer), I use Oakskin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=15&message.id=1985#M1985" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=15&message.id=1985#M1985</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the descriptions in the above post, you can sort of see what upgrades what.</DIV></DIV>

[Frametree]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramia wrote:<BR> <P><IMG src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/Ramia2/WindsOfRenewal.jpg">      <IMG src="http://img51.exs.cx/img51/7070/chlorostorm7ra.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>I am still using my level 14 group HoT spell at adept 3 at level 50.  Which still out heals the level 42.8 adept 3 that someone else has posted, each group member for 81 a tick vs the 71 a tick for the later one......it is really lamb that after 28 levels and 2 upgrade later we actually have a HoT group spell that heals less.....go figure that one SOE.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Do you really think that 42 points of Ward really holds out at level 50 for long.....lol.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Even with a faster tick rate on Chlorostorm I would still use Winds of Renewal over the last one we get.  Hopefully sometime in the future SOE will give us faster, stronger Group and Single HoT's that also stack with other HoT and other Druids HoTs.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Ramia on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It would be nice to have better upgrades.  What I don't get, though, is why you would use Winds over Chlorostorm when you point out the one ticks much faster than the other, and so (given the difference) obviously heals better and more?  Or am I missing something here? </DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frametree wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramia wrote:<BR> <P><IMG src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/Ramia2/WindsOfRenewal.jpg">      <IMG src="http://img51.exs.cx/img51/7070/chlorostorm7ra.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>I am still using my level 14 group HoT spell at adept 3 at level 50.  Which still out heals the level 42.8 adept 3 that someone else has posted, each group member for 81 a tick vs the 71 a tick for the later one......it is really lamb that after 28 levels and 2 upgrade later we actually have a HoT group spell that heals less.....go figure that one SOE.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Do you really think that 42 points of Ward really holds out at level 50 for long.....lol.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>Even with a faster tick rate on Chlorostorm I would still use Winds of Renewal over the last one we get.  Hopefully sometime in the future SOE will give us faster, stronger Group and Single HoT's that also stack with other HoT and other Druids HoTs.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Ramia on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It would be nice to have better upgrades.  What I don't get, though, is why you would use Winds over Chlorostorm when you point out the one ticks much faster than the other, and so (given the difference) obviously heals better and more?  Or am I missing something here? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>Not being a warden, I wouldnt beable to say in particular, but something to notice is that Chlorostorm has a power to heal ratio of 1.76 while Winds of Renewal has a power to heal ratio of 2.58. Unless it was a dire emergency where the large group heal was needed, I personally would say it would be more efficient to use chlorostorm. That doesnt even bring the speculated ward detriment associated with Chlorostorm, granted Chlorostorm would be used after damage is taken, so the ward may not even necesarrily come into play. Anyway, just outsider speculation.</DIV>

[Oldlore]

<DIV>Well both heal for so little that in an emergency both wouldn't be nearly enough.  I have a 45 warden and a 48 berserker and I can tell you that for both classes I only use 1 out of every 3 or 4 new arts/spells I get.  Some of the upgrades aren't any better than the thing they're replacing and, in some cases, are actually worse.  It does make leveling less rewarding sometimes when you know you're going to get some useless ability that'll never make it's way onto a hotbar <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Exs]

Until I get more encouragement from higher level wardens I'm rolling a fury, at least I can do damage, instead of having both damage and heal broken.

[Dragonreal]

Warden damage is not broken and neither are heals actually; wardens are a very nice class right now. It may or may not change after the priest balancing, but for right now I think the biggest issue is the whole benison/woodone's power draining proc thing. Any class that can potentially solo heal a grp without an enc and still be able to contribute somewhat to dps can't be all that bad (I've done this many times, with only ad1 spells and at most lvls).

[MaldekTM]

<P>Design flaws lol</P> <P>every issue raised in this thread is simple human error.  the buffs are not lacking, the players are simply lacking the proper application and most seem to be also lacking basic reading comprehension.  look at the original poster: this person confused oakskin ( a single target power buff) as being an upgrade to favor of the untamed. (a group-effect power buff)  any sane person could tell you that oak is for solo/small group and favor is for large group/raid.  the rest of the points mentioned follow along this misguided train of thought.  saying that a heal that ticks for 60 every 5 seconds is better than a heal that ticks for 53 every 2.6 seconds ignores fundamental mathematics.  divide them down to per second heal ratio and it's obvious which is the better spell.</P> <P>these issues are laughable mistakes on the players side.  the "design flaws" referenced are untrue.  anyone interested in a warden class should not be dissuaded by these comments.  wardens are an exceptional priest-subclass and are capable of performing phenomally as the sole healer in a full group.</P>

[Spag]

<DIV> <DIV>MaldekTM,</DIV> <DIV>   While your post is very acurate I just want to point out that Chlorostorm a lvl 42 spell is barly better than Winds of Renewal lv 14 spell in the HP/sec ratio but worse in the HP/power ratio.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Winds of renewal lvl 14 - power cost 124  with a 20 second duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>81+5(60) = 381  (per group member)</DIV> <DIV>HP/Sec = 19.05  (per group member)</DIV> <DIV>HP/power = 3.07</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chlorostorm lvl 42 - power cost 317 with a 24 second duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>71+ 10(53) = 601  (per group member)</DIV> <DIV>HP/Sec = 25.04  (per group member)</DIV> <DIV>HP/Power = 1.89  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now granted, you cant master Chlorostorm due to the level cap, which would make these numbers a bit better, but the scaling on the spells is out of whack.  You get an extra 6HP per second between the two spells that are almost 30 levels apart, and costs more than 50% more power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you want to talk design flaws lets talk how the cleric and shaman group specials are a single pool of HP that can be utilized by 1 member of the group, where ours is a divided pool of HP that has a set HP per player per tick.  Not only is ours much more wasteful, since it will usually be assigning HP to those who are not damaged but also remember if we are in a 2 person group the spell is 1/3rd as powerful.  Where as the shaman and cleric group special has the same HP pool regardless of # of players in the group.  Just some food for thought.</DIV></DIV>

[Chog]

<P>Well, I did some fundamental mathematics. </P> <P>Chlorostorm does 71 points and then 53 points every 2.6 seconds. It will tick 9 times durings its 24 second duration. That gives 548 points of healing total ( 548 = 71 + (9 * 53)).  It's power cost is 317. That gives a healing per point of power ratio of 1.73.</P> <P>Winds of Renewal does 81 points and then 60 more every 5 seconds. It will tick 4 times during its 20 second duration. That gives 321 points of healing total ( 321 = 81 + (4 * 60)). It's power cost is 124. That gives a healing per point of power ratio of 2.59.</P> <P>2.59 > 1.73.</P> <P>Winds of Renewal > Chlorostorm.</P> <P>That's fundamental mathematics. Now, I agree that it ignores the (questionable) value of the ward. It also does not take into account that maybe 548 points of healing is needed and the 321 of WoR just doesn't cut it. However, the fact is that WoR is the more efficient spell, by a lot, than Chlorostorm.</P> <P>By the way, wardens are a very functional class at the moment, and I love my warden. In no way am I complaining or arguing that wardens are broken. But facts are facts.</P>

[3cho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exsub wrote:<BR> Until I get more encouragement from higher level wardens I'm rolling a fury, at least I can do damage, instead of having both damage and heal broken.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you think Wardens have problems.... you're going to hate the Fury class (you need to talk to some higher level Furies (Rensu) before deciding that).  Furies have comprable damage (they get more DD/DOTs but a lot of them aren't as powerful as the few we get) and a LOT of their heals are just plain busted.  I'll post the article Rensu made which does a comparison of Furies to Wardens.  I think (personally) Wardens are in decent shape all things considered.  SOE must have been smoking crack when the developed the Fury... but, they promise fixes will be coming soon.</P> <P>Warden heals are broken?  If you have Regrowth (or the lvl 20 regrowth training) and then you get NC... I think you'll find you're a strong healer.  Regrowth stacks with NC (Regrowth does a small DH and then a larger HoT, NC does a larger DH and a smaller HoT).  NE (a mana consumer) does a really big heal with a small HoT (but that doesn't stack with the NC HoT... I dont think).  Throw Bloom in there ( a must to have at AD1, preferably AD3 or better) and you can be an excellent healer.</P> <P>If you've made up your mind to try a Fury, by all means.  But you really SHOULD base your decision on more conrete info than has been presented here.  This discussion only touches on a few heals that aren't good upgrades.  It doesn bring to light the other great heals afforded to us.</P><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[Ravenmi]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exsub wrote:<BR> Until I get more encouragement from higher level wardens I'm rolling a fury, at least I can do damage, instead of having both damage and heal broken.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That actually made me laugh out loud at work, hahahahaah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone going to roll a Fury becuase Wardens are broken?!?!  ROFLMAO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I bet the Fury's out there would love to hear that one... hahahahahaha</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wardens are 1000 X in better shape right now then Fury's are..  Wardens work [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well right now.. There is no other class I'd rather be.  A few tweaks and we'd of been darn near perfect, but it sounds like we're getting nerfed instead. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think thats the most uniformed comment I've read on the boards so far today. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Many people including myself feel that our regen line is broken or atleast in need of some tweaking.  The HP/sec on these with the exception of Regrowth, are horrible for their level.  Regrowth was good because it only took 20 seconds to expend its entire payload, where as Blessing of the Grove is a 30 second spell.  On the surface you think the longer the spell lasts, the better it is, well unfortunately it does not work this way.  Since the spell is a set number of HP, that HP is then spread thinly across that time interval.  Where as if it were a 20 second duration, the HP/sec ratio would increase making the spell much more useful.  Moving this further down to a 15 second duration would give it twice the HP/sec ratio, and I would consider the spell fixed, or atleast much more useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As is now most people use the regens to suppliment their direct heals, where as it should be the other way around.  We should be using the direct heals to suppliment the regens. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This problem is simply amplified on the group regens, since its a divided pool of HP.  About the only time this spell is useful is for a group that is damaged and no longer being attacked, i.e. out of combat healing.  </DIV>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogra wrote:<BR> <P>Chlorostorm does 71 points and then 53 points every 2.6 seconds. It will tick 9 times durings its 24 second duration. That gives 548 points of healing total ( 548 = 71 + (9 * 53)).  It's power cost is 317. That gives a healing per point of power ratio of 1.73.</P> <P>Winds of Renewal does 81 points and then 60 more every 5 seconds. It will tick 4 times during its 20 second duration. That gives 321 points of healing total ( 321 = 81 + (4 * 60)). It's power cost is 124. That gives a healing per point of power ratio of 2.59.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe the winds of renewal has 5 ticks instead of 4.  Its a 20 second duration with ticks every 5 seconds, but remember, it has a tick at the start of the 20 seconds as well as at the end. </P> <P>Tick 19, 18 17,16, tick, 14,13,12,11,tick, 9,8,7,6,tick, 4,3,2,1,tick.</P> <P>I believe all the regens work this way.</P>

[Funsquad]

<P>Regarding Oakskin is it not a bit of a sucky spell ?</P> <P>The only time Ive found it worthwhile to use is when grouped with a Higher level Warden who overrides the meat and potaoes buffs. If there is another situation to use it Id like to here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The only advice for Exsub (and hope this isnt teaching grandma to suck eggs - just noticed only 2 posts) is that often spell upgrades start off as less effective than the tried and tested either as a factor or Orange (not mastered) Vs White or lower (fully up to speed). Or because you may have upgraded the earlier to Adept+ while new spells come in at Ap 1</P>

[bloa]

<DIV>Exsub:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oakskin stacks with FoTU and is Single-Target only.  It is an optional buff that you can use instead of our Wolf form, incase you want more power as opposed to more AC+proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the case of your AoE healing spells.  To get the best effects for them upgrade to adept 1 ore better and also keep in mind they only get better as you level.   Tip,  anything that cons orange to you isn't mastered therefore you're not going to use it to its fullest potential.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also,  don't expect to put out any damage with your Warden,  he will never be a damage dealer.  But is excellent at Healing and at the Defensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Titus</DIV> <DIV>42 warden</DIV> <DIV>Of Permafrost</DIV>

[Exs]

<P>The point of my thread was that Oakskin comes too early, while there are other buff spells that need to be upgraded, such as Willowskin, and Wild spirit.</P> <P>Why would I use Oakskin anyway? I have FotU which is a group buff and on top of that its effects are better than those of Oakskin. Like one of the posters said, the only time Oakskin is worth using is when there's a higher level warden in the same grp, whose buffs overwrite yours, leaving you extra concentration points to use.</P> <P>The 2 healing spells I mentioned earlier are clearly uneffective, at any level, I would rather use mana efficient spells any time and only use heavy direct heals when necessary.</P> <P>The fact that higher level spells do worse than older spells is just lame, it gives little encouragement to leveling.</P> <P>To the person who said that maybe my newer spells aren't as powerful as older ones because I'm comparing app1s to existant adepts, please read my thread again, where in P.S. I said clearly that all spells compared are at adept1 level.</P> <P>Furies may not be as good as wardens, according to you. But at least I'll know that I can do something good, instead of being a jack-of-all-trades priest.</P>

[bloa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exsub wrote:<BR> <P>The point of my thread was that Oakskin comes too early, while there are other buff spells that need to be upgraded, such as Willowskin, and Wild spirit.</P> <P>Why would I use Oakskin anyway? I have FotU which is a group buff and on top of that its effects are better than those of Oakskin. Like one of the posters said, the only time Oakskin is worth using is when there's a higher level warden in the same grp, whose buffs overwrite yours, leaving you extra concentration points to use.</P> <P>The 2 healing spells I mentioned earlier are clearly uneffective, at any level, I would rather use mana efficient spells any time and only use heavy direct heals when necessary.</P> <P>The fact that higher level spells do worse than older spells is just lame, it gives little encouragement to leveling.</P> <P>To the person who said that maybe my newer spells aren't as powerful as older ones because I'm comparing app1s to existant adepts, please read my thread again, where in P.S. I said clearly that all spells compared are at adept1 level.</P> <P>Furies may not be as good as wardens, according to you. But at least I'll know that I can do something good, instead of being a jack-of-all-trades priest.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok,  take a deep breath,   one more,  good.   Now that you are thinking correctly and the nuerons in your brain have stopped bouncing around at warped speeds read my answer to your post...</P> <P>Oakskin is the upgrade to Vigor,  Vigor comes before WildSpirit and Willowskin in the line of your spell buffs, WS and WW are indeed considered group buffs,   Oaksin is not,  it is Single target buff only.  Oaksin may also stack with any buff except for Vigor itself.  So as you can see the spell line kind of follows an systematic order there.  As for FoTU,  FoTU can stack with Oaksin giving you more power overall,  in my recommendation earlier,  I said you should try dropping Warden of the Forest form and replacing it with Oaksin,  since they each individually only take 1 conc point.</P> <DIV>As for the group healing spells and your comment about how higher spells do worse than lower spells,  now if you are referring to more power usage,  also realize that there is more overall power in your character to compensate as you level.  Let the effectiveness of the buff be your reward and use your skills to learn ways to effectively use them.  Let it be known that there are more than a handful of skilled Wardens that exist that would not agree with you,  man.  Therefore I must set you straight.</DIV>

[3cho]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Exsub wrote:<div></div> <p>The point of my thread was that Oakskin comes too early, while there are other buff spells that need to be upgraded, such as Willowskin, and Wild spirit. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Perhaps it does.  I suppose that's a matter of opinion.</font> </p> <p>Why would I use Oakskin anyway? I have FotU which is a group buff and on top of that its effects are better than those of Oakskin. Like one of the posters said, the only time Oakskin is worth using is when there's a higher level warden in the same grp, whose buffs overwrite yours, leaving you extra concentration points to use. <font color="#ffff00"> You may never use Oakskin.  But it's there.  I've used it from time to time when I have the extra conc point (for whatever reason).  Other classes get spells that some consider "useless" as well.  It's a matter of opinion.  I think Oakskin serves it's purpose....  It's a single target power buff.  It can be used on yourself, or whoever in your group may need the extra power.  *shrug*  That's it. </font>The 2 healing spells I mentioned earlier are clearly uneffective, at any level, I would rather use mana efficient spells any time and only use heavy direct heals when necessary. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">But most of the spells aren't like that.  I'm using every other upgrade.  Those two spells are broken.  Perhaps SOE will fix them so they can be usefull at some point.  Every other classe has lots of broken spells as well.  Wardens are one of the few classes where MOST of our spells and spell upgrades aren't broken.</font> </p> <p>The fact that higher level spells do worse than older spells is just lame, it gives little encouragement to leveling. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">So far (i'm now level 34) these are the only spells that have exhibited this trend.  Though I suspect, as I continue to level and approach mastery of these spells (level 38 @ 40% and 80% respectivley) they may at that point do as much, if not more that the spells they're upgrading.  I have all 4 at AD1.</font> </p> <p>To the person who said that maybe my newer spells aren't as powerful as older ones because I'm comparing app1s to existant adepts, please read my thread again, where in P.S. I said clearly that all spells compared are at adept1 level. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">The point he was trying to make is still valid.  Sometimes a brand new spell (at AD1) compared to an older spell (at AD1) does less until the newer spell reaches mastery.   Almost all of my spells are at AD1 or better.</font> </p> <p>Furies may not be as good as wardens, according to you. But at least I'll know that I can do something good, instead of being a jack-of-all-trades priest.</p><font color="#ffff00">Fury's aren't as good as wardens according to Fury's, not wardens.  You understand.... a Fury is also a Druid... right?  It's the other half of the equation.... the Ying to our Yang.  A Fury is also a jack of all trades healer.  As soon as I post this, I'll go find Rensu's post for ya (sorry I didn't do that sooner).  Please read it carefully.  Fury's have a lot of problems.  SOE owes them a lot of fixes.</font> EDIT: This is the post made by Rensu.  It's a well laid out presentation of all of the current Fury spell issues.  I'd highly advise that you read all of it.  It's best to be as informed as possible. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=30368&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 <hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 PM</span>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ravenmist wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exsub wrote:<BR> Until I get more encouragement from higher level wardens I'm rolling a fury, at least I can do damage, instead of having both damage and heal broken.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That actually made me laugh out loud at work, hahahahaah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone going to roll a Fury becuase Wardens are broken?!?!  ROFLMAO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I bet the Fury's out there would love to hear that one... hahahahahaha</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wardens are 1000 X in better shape right now then Fury's are..  Wardens work [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well right now.. There is no other class I'd rather be.  A few tweaks and we'd of been darn near perfect, but it sounds like we're getting nerfed instead. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think thats the most uniformed comment I've read on the boards so far today. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, furies have received a lot of fixing.  They may still not be as good a healer as warden they currently do more dps by far and their healing isn't too far behind when the warden has to spam heals.  And if you are raiding, then a few furies are always handy.  A second warden is usually superfluous.</DIV>

[Ram]

<P>Quote: Unmasked</P> <P>And if you are raiding, then a few furies are always handy.  A second warden is usually superfluous.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>What dream world have you been living in?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>I guess you never been on a high end raid where the WARDEN heat and cold resists come in handly more so than a whimp of a fury DSP.  Does the name Vox and Darathar mean anything to you?</FONT> :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[neble]

What I love about the original post is its the same issues that have been brought up since month 1 and have still gone unfixed.  The wasp thing is nice though and provided a fix to the broken deer form.  I'm glad they found that to be priorirty over a healing classes.... heals.  0_o

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramia wrote:<BR> <P>Quote: Unmasked</P> <P>And if you are raiding, then a few furies are always handy.  A second warden is usually superfluous.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>What dream world have you been living in?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc00 size=2>I guess you never been on a high end raid where the WARDEN heat and cold resists come in handly more so than a whimp of a fury DSP.  Does the name Vox and Darathar mean anything to you?</FONT> :smileyvery-happy:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I guess I must have bought my prismatic then.  The elemental buffs are nice but in those fights, keeping the main tank up is the only goal of the encounter since anyone else can be rezzed.  If you have 1 healer in each group whose job it is to cure the elemental dot, and each char has a 600 elemental mitigation potion with resist gear, the second warden simply isnt needed.  We've done both encounters several times with only 1 warden (me) and the fact that I was superfluous even in the darathar encounter (how many hp do you add?) really sums it up.  At 6k resists you still get creamed by the dot even though in theory we should be immune.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also have to wonder about your raiding style if you think furies are wimps for dps.  Forget about the damage they do individually and think about the procs and other damage they add to other members of their groups.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span>

[Eul]

Last time I said in a thread that Wardens deserved better healing because Furies had more offense a few of the Furies shot me down telling me they get outdamaged by the Wardens often. So which is it? <div></div>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ramia wrote:<div></div> <p>Quote: Unmasked</p> <p>And if you are raiding, then a few furies are always handy.  A second warden is usually superfluous.</p> <p></p> <hr> <p><font color="#ffcc00" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">What dream world have you been living in?</font></p> <p><font color="#ffcc00" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">I guess you never been on a high end raid where the WARDEN heat and cold resists come in handly more so than a whimp of a fury DSP.  Does the name Vox and Darathar mean anything to you?</font> :smileyvery-happy:</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Warden elemental resists do something? News to me. Anyway.. with Vox and Darathar, the elemental AOE's are the least of your problems. But you probably know that, being an expert raider and all.</span><div></div>

[Unmask]

<P>Despite my canine tendancies I really don't want to get into a peeing match with my feline friends (we know who would win that. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but my guild, which raids every night, is continually recruiting furies but seems interested in adding maybe 1 more warden to bring the roster to 2.</P> <P>As I said, furies received a lot of fixing so people who say furies were broken are basing that on old and outdated information.  Could furies use more help?  Sure I think their heals are subpar for druids since they have the same regen problems we do.  And I think solo vs solo wardens may actually do about the same or possibly more damage (tough to say really).  But in a group, especially a group of meleers, furies will win hands down.  When looking at combat parsers you have to look at the procs and other damage added by the furies not directly done by them.</P> <P>So whatever the true facts about furies vs wardens the undisputed fact is that there are boatloads more furies than wardens, especially at high levels and I'm not sure that's the reason for my guild's recruitment policy (I'm afraid to ask <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  When facing raid mobs like Drayek or King Zalak I basically cast duststorm and other than throwing in a few token heals I can nap through the fight until duststorm goes down and I have to recast it, in case the fight goes that long.  Sure I can melee, throw in my agi debuff, complete HOs, cast summers flame, etc. but without my cold DoT or DD my dps is pretty much 0.</P>

[Croa]

<DIV>I'm not sure that I've noticed what you're talking about. Now I'm a lvl43 warden and I've used the same 4 concentration slots since mid20s I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 are the shield icons, 1 is the bear icon, and 1 is the curved bolt thing icon. I'd have to look up the exact names of the buffs but they are all group buffs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then for the 5th slot it varies on what I'm doing. When soloing challenging stuff it's always the wolf form buff. When in a group it's usually Spirit of the Bat (combat power regen) on whoever in the group runs out of power quickest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're correct on the power/healing ratio stuff, but that's all true of every healing class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for damage spells. I still now at 43 use Smiting Spark. It's great for HO usage especially in very long fights where power is vital or when I get extra aggro near the end of the fight and am low on power. In groups I rarely use the DD spells. I instead use my two  DOTs, one has an instant debuff and the other (stinging swarm) has a debuff at the end). That's assuming that I'm not doing a lot of healing which would be priority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, bugs or not... I love playing my warden. Even at lvl43 I can still easily solo plain yellows and most oranges. I can even kill double-up green nightbloods without much trouble though the fights are longer.</DIV>

[Celain]

<DIV>someone said they were going to roll a fury since at least they can do damage...well i have to say it, I with only adept 1s can out damage most furies my level. furies get some nice offensive buffs but those do not necessarily make them have better dps than a warden. also, chlorostorm is nice for a slight heal to everyone in the group after slight aoe damage during a fight..for emergencies there is a straight group heal we get(can't remember name) that heals great. In general I try not to rely on group heals..if you need to use them too often you need a new group or just a new tank.</DIV>