Moorgard states Warden HOTs don't generate more aggro than wards/reactives...

[KnutForkbea]

<DIV>Here is the quote from Moorgard's chat session over on EQ2Vault:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DT><I><B><FONT color=#fdf1be>Sassee:</FONT></B> Many druids and druid subclasses feel they generate far more agro than the other priests through their heal-over-time spells. Is this a design decision based upon the amount of health replenished over the full duration of the spell, or perhaps is there some other problem causing more agro than is intended to fall upon the druid? {Question originally submitted by <B><FONT color=#fdf1be>Tenel_LC</FONT></B>)<BR></I><BR>  <DD><B><FONT color=#fdf1be>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</FONT></B> Heal spells generate hate for the priest based on the amount of health they replenish. There isn't anything inherent to regenerative heals that makes them draw more hate than instant heals, reactive heals, or wards. If a healing spell has secondary effects attached to it, keep in mind that those effects may incur extra hate as well. </DD></DIV> <P>Well, if hope was fading that aggro on HOTs would ever be fixed, then hope is utterly dead now.</P>

[Kyralis]

Then my guess is that the hate is generated by Bloom and other "instant + HoT" heals. Since the hot component is a secondary effect that he says may be giving additional hate, and we all know how much hate *any* sort of heal already generates... again, we're looking at possibly getting hate for two heals when we're only casting one.

[Patheos]

<DIV>I don't have to use Bloom to get insane agro - one cast of  a regrowth line (without doing *anything* else in the fight!) is often enough for the mobs all turn to me, and my poor guardian hubby spends the rest of the fight trying to get them off me.  None of the other healing classes have this issue, guardian/shamans or guardian/clerics, and I've done a small amount of testing.  I get a LOT more agro than they do for my specialty heals and I'm sick of it.</DIV>

[Frametree]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Patheos wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't have to use Bloom to get insane agro - one cast of  a regrowth line (without doing *anything* else in the fight!) is often enough for the mobs all turn to me, and my poor guardian hubby spends the rest of the fight trying to get them off me.  None of the other healing classes have this issue, guardian/shamans or guardian/clerics, and I've done a small amount of testing.  I get a LOT more agro than they do for my specialty heals and I'm sick of it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Something is wrong for sure, if you get aggro with one cast of a regrowth line spell.  I sure don't.  Have your hubby try buffing himself on pulls, and shortly thereafter.  See if that doesn't help.  I'm assuming he is using the more obvious taunts, of course. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[defikus]

I'll also throw in the fact that i don't get agro on one cast of regrowth. I very rarey get agro if at all these days (First time in a long time was last night when i chain healed a monk tank in RoV)I have the hate reducing halfling trait though so who knows <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Krib]

One thing that's helped me is that I'll throw my HOTs immediately before the tank pulls. That enables me to not have to heal for the first part of the fight, and it saves the hate. The only other time I'll toss a HOT is much later in the fight when the tank has built up so much hate that there's no way I'll get the mobs off him. I will admit that my group HOT doesn't get used much; really only if the mob is spamming an area on us. And I'm always ready to do a wisp afterwards. Perhaps this is not the way we should have to play as wardens and it IS annoying, but it works for me for now.

[Unmask]

<DIV>If it only worked like that.  I stopped precasting a hot when after the mob is pulled it goes straight forme.</DIV>

[Kyralis]

Precasting tends to be less useful for Wardens for a variety of reasons. The fact that it doesn't really help with aggro at all is only one.It's hard to give a "standard" heal sequence, since it depends a lot on how many of the mob's initial special attacks hit, and for how much.

[Deedr]

<DIV>One thing I noticed about this issue was this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In Runney Eye we all know that goblins are social aggro mobs so it is risky to attack a group to pull them cause usually you will</DIV> <DIV>get all the groups in the room but.... If you body pull (walk just close enough for one to see you and it will chase you back to your camp)  the puller has very little aggro with the mobs usually this is the tank.   Now IF i have a regen on him at this time and the goblins see him and chase him and my regrowth tick on him...boom i have aggro.  Same thing for Clerics with reactives...the only healer i dont see this with is Shamen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as i have now started grouping with low 40's monk and SK / Guard Tanks i dont bother with any of that pre fight heal buffs and after 5 seconds of the pull I have to work hard to get aggro from them....mabye it is a taunting issue on the tanks part...  Perhaps they arent using their AOE taunts.  Heck once i was with a 36 Paladin Tank who only had app2 for all of his taunts and he could hold aggro if he lied naked on the ground and begged the mob to hit him.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I blame it on player education of pull tatics (tank and healer alike) and tank taunting skills more than our heals....and if you need to heal your tanks 2 seconds after the pull either something went wrong like an add,  your tank is not a good one and should buy some upgrades, or the you are fighting to many things, or finally you are biting off more than you can handle and should be pulling lower lv things to fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my observation and 2 copper worth</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deedria of Antonia  Bayle</DIV> <DIV>38 Fury</DIV>

[neutrino82]

Hmm.. I particitated in 2 raids today and incurred 3 deaths. The first raid was against a lvl 51 groupx4 mob and I was the first to die after the main tank. The same thing happened in a the other raid.This is a very small sample size but I find it curious that I was targetted for death first in these situations in a group with 3 healers (46 warden, 50 inquisitor, 47 mystic).

[3cho]

<DIV>I think folks here are trying to draw concrete conclusions without realizing that there are a ton of factors involved.  I myself use Coursing growth (the lvl20 regrowth training) as a buffer heal.... often casting it just as the tank leaves green or just get's to yellow.  By the time that has finished casting, I am on bloom.  A lot of the tanks I've worked with are <B>good</B> tanks, and get and keep aggro.  In those situations, as a Warden, I never get aggro (even in cases where I chain cast when "things go wrong").</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes I'm in groups where the tank is not so good, or the tank is many levels below me.  Even in those situations, I haven't noticed that regrowth (or it's upgrades) get aggro (more than anything else).  I never... <B>EVER</B> cast regrowth as a pre-buff or just as the battle starts.  It, IMO, was not meant to be used that way.  I will get instant aggro in that situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have found that Sylvan Touch (the one time direct heal + HOT) generates a LOT of aggro.  Even with a good tank, I've found an increased number of incidents where I've gotten aggro as a result of using that in a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, before eveyone goes of half cocked and decides that regrowth (or it's upgrades) are completely broken let's look at some common factors that could effect a druid/warden/fury:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Good Tank?  Is s/he keep aggro throughout the battle?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) When is regrowth being used?  If it's used before the tank has full aggro (early in the fight) then that can be a factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is regrowth being used after another spell that may have generated an unusally large amount of aggro?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Are you a higher level than the other healers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) Are you a higher level than the tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6) Are you considerably lower level than the rest of your group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7) How close to the mob are you?  Distance to the mob can have an effect.  The closer you are, the more likely you might be to get aggro next (ie, if the tank goes down and the next three peopl all have the same amount of aggro, the mob may go for the first one it "sees").</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying it's not bugged.  Certainly a lot of people have complained about it.  But there seems to be a lot of people who aren't having as much trouble as well.  I for one, seem to be doing ok.  I don't get aggro anymore than the shamans or clerics I often play with (Though I have never played a shaman or a cleric).</DIV><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>01-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 PM</span>

[Kyralis]

Certainly there are many factors that come into play here. But when you regularly hear, from a number of different (good) tanks, "Gah, I can never hold aggro with a druid healing!", and then you piece that together with the regularity of being hit, you start putting 2 and 2 together to get 4.The problem (and it is a problem) is primarly evident in the upper teens and lower 20s, when tank taunt abilities are at their lowest. It continues a bit through the 30s, but by the upper 30s if you're still having problems it's *definitely* your own fault.We're not claiming that anything is completely broken. But empirical evidence suggests that some druid spell is giving higher-than-expected heal aggro, and we're trying to gather evidence for what that is and in what situations the issue arises.Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the level 20 training regrowth mitigates some of this. It wasn't available when I was level 20, so it's difficult for me to say. Also, with particularly good tanks, the effect can vanish- it's only with "pretty good but not amazing" tanks that you really see the distinction between druid healing and the two other healer classes.

[iae]

<DIV>The training HoT definitely generates more hate than regrowth because of the extra mitigation.  I also used to cast mossy balm since it stacks, but I've found that it generates more hate than it's worth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My little routine these days is to debuff the mob when the puller gets back to camp, then start healing when the tank gets down to about half.  I was the only healer on a 5-man zek boat ride the other day and had to chain heal the lvl 27 zerker harder than I've ever chain healed anyone...didn't pull aggro till he died :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We may generate more hate than the other healers, but if you give the tank a little more time to establish aggro and then only heal when you have to, it's not a big deal.  It seems to me that druids are the most mana-efficient of the healing bunch, so maybe it's a fair trade-off.</DIV>

[Ganwar]

<DIV>I was in nek castle last night, im a lvl 28 warden, and I was drawing aggro almost every single time.  I was waiting till the tank was getting into the yellow and tried regrowth, bloom, efflorecent and blessing of the grove.  No matter which one I started with I would draw aggro.  I am not sure if I am doing something wrong or what the deal is but it does get a bit frustrating gettting hammered each time.  What seems to be best to start with.</DIV>

[Kyralis]

It's been a while since I was that level, but I used to start off with Regrowth when the tank hit yellow, unless he was dropping fast enought that I felt bloom/effloresce to counter initial damage was necessary. I'd stick with Regrowth unless it wasn't keeping up, in which case I'd start mixing in Bloom, and only after that Effloresce.

[Nazo]

<DIV>When you are talking about getting agro immediately after pull please be aware that pulling is not just shooting an arrow at the mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a 40 Guardian and most of the time I pull with a taunt or a bow which doesnt even hit the mob. While the mob is chasing me to the camp you will notice that encounter is not even locked. If you cast a heavy heal on me during that time frame yes you will get agro. This also goes for DPS classes as well but just give me a chance to get in one hit and grab proper agro :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course if I am dying while bringing in the mob all this advice goes outta window and it is business as usual :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My regular group consists of a Templar and Doggy (Warden) and we kill red-cons for 3-4 hours everynight without breaking a sweat. I really love the way those classes heals supplement each other.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>02-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 AM</span>

[Ishtar]

<DIV>Well...I am not one of the developers so I do not know how it is coded, but there are a few possibilities.  The phrase "health they replenish" could be the key.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, the more times a tank hit a mob, the more aggro it drew.  There seemed to be a set amount of aggro per hit, plus the aggro for the damage.  So the more times a mob was hit, the more aggro was generated, even if the same overall damage was done.  This was a few years ago, so not sure if that is still the case with EQ1 or with EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could be the case with our HoT's.  They could be coded such that we get a set amount of aggro per heal, plus we get aggro for the amount healed.  So, since our HoT's heal in ticks, every tick we could be getting the set amount of aggro plus the aggro for the healing amount.  If the wards and reactives only give the set amount for the initial cast and then just generate the aggro for the healing amount every time they are hit, then we would generate more aggro, as the wards and reactives would not be generating the set amount each time they healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's assume for illustration purposes that the set amount of aggro for healing is 5.  And let's assume for ullustration purposes that a ward, reactive and hot generate the same 10 aggro per tick/hit in pure healing aggro.  So if they all lasted 6 ticks/hits, a HoT would generate 15 aggro for the initial cast, and 15 aggro each tick, giving a total of 90 aggro points.  Whereby a ward or reactive would generate 5 points of aggro when initially cast and 10 points per hit, for a total of 65 aggro points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It could also be that the healing done by wards/reactives after the initial cast are not even attributed to the healer that casts them, which would make it even a bigger disparity between druids and the other healing classes.</DIV>

[ep]

Personally, I'm not upset about the aggro issue. I personally haven't had many aggro issues, and those were all caused by grouping with a tank of a lower level. I think that Wardens have some amazing heals, plus, we get good debuffs, and can actually help with a nuke or two during the fight. A guildmate and I grouped last night, just the two of us, her a lvl 24guardian (I think that's what she is), and myself lvl23 warden, and we were able to take out yellow^^ griffons, no problem. I hate to say this, but I'm honestly just waiting for the other priests to whine more and us to get nerfed.

[Ishtar]

<DIV>Aaia...people don't seem to understand a few very important things about EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Equipment relative to your level</DIV> <DIV>2.  Combat/Spell Art Upgrades</DIV> <DIV>3.  Tactics</DIV> <DIV>4.  Training options</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless you know these things, your comparing apples and oranges when talking about encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My warden at 26 could sometimes solo double up blue mobs.  They were extremely difficult, but it was about a 30/70 shot.  Obviously, I ran alot.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  This was before the changes yesterday.  After yesterdays HO solo nerf, then I doubt I could have done it at that level.  At 28, I can solo double up green mobs about 75 percent of the time with the changes to HO.  Now if I did not tell you the things listed above, which I have not, then you would think it was BS, based on your experience.  And I would expect for 99 percent of the wardens, the things I do are beyond their abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I was a templar or mystic with the same relative spell upgrades, equipment and tactics, could I solo the same mobs?  I have no idea.  I would "guess" that I could.  But frankly, the people doing that would not openly say they can, lest the nerf bat strike them down. </DIV>

[ep]

<blockquote><hr>Ishtarra wrote:<DIV>Aaia...people don't seem to understand a few very important things about EQ2.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. Equipment relative to your level</DIV><DIV>2. Combat/Spell Art Upgrades</DIV><DIV>3. Tactics</DIV><DIV>4. Training options</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Unless you know these things, your comparing apples and oranges when talking about encounters.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>My warden at 26 could sometimes solo double up blue mobs. They were extremely difficult, but it was about a 30/70 shot. Obviously, I ran alot. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This was before the changes yesterday. After yesterdays HO solo nerf, then I doubt I could have done it at that level. At 28, I can solo double up green mobs about 75 percent of the time with the changes to HO. Now if I did not tell you the things listed above, which I have not, then you would think it was BS, based on your experience. And I would expect for 99 percent of the wardens, the things I do are beyond their abilities.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If I was a templar or mystic with the same relative spell upgrades, equipment and tactics, could I solo the same mobs? I have no idea. I would "guess" that I could. But frankly, the people doing that would not openly say they can, lest the nerf bat strike them down. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Totally agree about the first part.Curious about the HO comment (I know this is getting OT!). Before yesterday's patch, my divine judgement only did like 40-55 damage, last night, it was doing 140-155 damage!! That was how we were able to take down the yellow^^ griffons. Am I the only one who's HO damange when WAY up??

[3cho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Caerwyn wrote:<BR>Certainly there are many factors that come into play here. But when you regularly hear, from a number of different (good) tanks, "Gah, I can never hold aggro with a druid healing!", and then you piece that together with the regularity of being hit, you start putting 2 and 2 together to get 4.<BR><BR>The problem (and it is a problem) is primarly evident in the upper teens and lower 20s, when tank taunt abilities are at their lowest. It continues a bit through the 30s, but by the upper 30s if you're still having problems it's *definitely* your own fault.<BR><BR>We're not claiming that anything is completely broken. But empirical evidence suggests that some druid spell is giving higher-than-expected heal aggro, and we're trying to gather evidence for what that is and in what situations the issue arises.<BR><BR>Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the level 20 training regrowth mitigates some of this. It wasn't available when I was level 20, so it's difficult for me to say. Also, with particularly good tanks, the effect can vanish- it's only with "pretty good but not amazing" tanks that you really see the distinction between druid healing and the two other healer classes.<BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I understand your points.  I'm not sure what higher than expected aggro actually means though.  Higher compared to... shamans are clerics?</DIV> <DIV>Shamans use wards which mitigate damage and Clerics use Bestowl of Vitae which only grants the target an increase in health when s/he has been hit.  Regrowth and Coursing growth are HOT's the heal regardless.  So it's possible that out of the three HOT type spells, it does generates more aggro.  But since we're the only classes that get a HOT like regrowth (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong) it's hard to say "higher than expected" because there's nothing to compare it to.  I've found a good technique to using our HOT and as a result perhaps I counter any higher aggro that might be generated by Regrowth.  Wards and Vitae work differently, so it's not really appropriate to do a direct comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say that I have no more aggro issues than other healer classes.  I've worked with a variety of tanks in a variety of groups (good and bad).  Just my closing thoughts on the subject.</DIV><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>02-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[Ishtar]

<DIV>Aaia,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My HO comment means this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to the patch that changed the time to 10 seconds from 30 seconds I could start the HO, cast cold snap, let cold snap wear off, and cast it again to complete the HO.  Cold snap being our most mana efficient spell, it allowed me to do some amazing things.  Now, I have to cast another less mana efficient spell to complete the HO in the time required.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, one of our HO effects has about double the damage it had prior to the change.  And it is the most common HO we get.  But the 10 second timer is an issue, especially when mobs resist.</DIV>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishtarra wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aaia,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My HO comment means this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to the patch that changed the time to 10 seconds from 30 seconds I could start the HO, cast cold snap, let cold snap wear off, and cast it again to complete the HO.  Cold snap being our most mana efficient spell, it allowed me to do some amazing things.  Now, I have to cast another less mana efficient spell to complete the HO in the time required.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, one of our HO effects has about double the damage it had prior to the change.  And it is the most common HO we get.  But the 10 second timer is an issue, especially when mobs resist.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Cold Snap/Cold Snap combo is not all that efficient because it takes so long to take down a mob and you have to rely on the mob missing you a lot (no kiting).  Cold Snap does an elemental mititgation debuff and Frost is very efficient DD spell, especially if you upgrade it beyond adept 1.  So a Cold Snap/Frost HO then 2 Frost/Frost HO combos is vastly more damaging and probably more power efficient, especially after including the extra HO damage anyway (for me this is around 2k damage plus the damage from 3 HOs unless I get lucky and score a blessing of faith effect).</P>

[ep]

Ah.. thanks for answering. I don't have cold snap yet. My HO generally consists of Stinging Swarm and Frost. I generally group with a guildmate and we alternate HOs. I'll do mine, then she does her's. By the time her's is done, Stinging Swarm is just about to wear off so I toss SS and Frost back on. It's been working like clockwork the past two nights.

[Elfy]

<DIV>3cho wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"I understand your points.  I'm not sure what higher than expected aggro actually means though.  Higher compared to... shamans are clerics?</DIV> <DIV>Shamans use wards which mitigate damage and Clerics use Bestowl of Vitae which only grants the target an increase in health when s/he has been hit.  Regrowth and Coursing growth are HOT's the heal regardless.  So it's possible that out of the three HOT type spells, it does generates more aggro.  But since we're the only classes that get a HOT like regrowth (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong) it's hard to say "higher than expected" because there's nothing to compare it to.  I've found a good technique to using our HOT and as a result perhaps I counter any higher aggro that might be generated by Regrowth.  Wards and Vitae work differently, so it's not really appropriate to do a direct comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say that I have no more aggro issues than other healer classes.  I've worked with a variety of tanks in a variety of groups (good and bad).  Just my closing thoughts on the subject."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It means that I shouldn't draw anymore aggro healing for 1000 damage than a shammy warding for a 1000 or a cleric healing for 1000 with reactives, which is not the case in my experience.  I garner much more aggro.  Obviously this skews peoples' thoughts about choosing us as a healer.  This is also crappy considering the recent AGI nerf, because I get hit everytime and stunned quite abit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care what Moorgard says, there is a problem and they need to fix it.</DIV></DIV>

[3cho]

<DIV>Fair enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My rebuttle to Caerwyn was... our heals are different than the shamans and clerics heals, and therefore making a direct comparison may be like comparing apples to oranges.  Since the spells work differently, the test to compare won't simply be, "you heal for 1000, now you heal for 1000.", IMO.  It would be... you keep the tank alive fighting a lvl X mob, now you do the same.  In the end we may both end up healing for 1000 hit points, but how we get there may be as important as getting there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, I will agree with one thing said.  If this issue (or perceived issue) does make Druids a less welcome healer than the rest, then I would say something needs to be addressed.  I know I can heal at least as well as the other two classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope everyone understands that I'm playing the devil's advocate.  As only a level 22 warden, I'm sure I have many things yet to be experienced.  I stand by my opinion though (at this point).  Thus far (in 22 levels) I can't say that I've had any more trouble than any of the other classes.  If SOE fixes the "issue" and makes it better for the class, I'm all for it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 PM</span>

[Dortel]

<DIV>Ok heres an issue you can start complaining about now so you wont have to deal with it later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighting a ^^^ level 54 groupx2 in Cazic thule (some funny name ending in the fearbringer or something) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tried this pull 4 times.  2 groups main group was 5 level 50 and me 49.  50 guardian 50 shaman 49 warden. Second group had 48 templar in it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pulled the boss, he is immune to half of the guardians taunts.  Guardian is in full ebon with tower shield. Drops him to near death in seconds including the pre-ward from the 50 shaman.  We all toss heals on the guardian to keep him alive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Shaman was the first to drop due to pulling aggro. Instant death full health to 0 health in 1 shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was second to drop. I even used all 3 of my hate reducers, master 1 subterfuge adept 1 wisp and adept 1 of my heal hate reducer. Probaly why the shaman pulled more aggro than me. Was hit for 2200 harm touch, 1800 barrage then 3810 crushing damage all in the same round. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian died right after me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 issues here. Got a to much aggro issue and a healing issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were 2 very well equiped groups going agaist a groupx2 and we did it  4 times and it wasnt even close, group wipes in less than 20 seconds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rikini]

<DIV>Dorteler,</DIV> <DIV>I think you're mistaken in your belief that event proves your point of Wardens, and healers in general have to much aggro via heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you had said that all of your warriors' taunts had landed. Each and every one of them, and the mob STILL turned on you before killing your warriors, then yes, I would agree with your POV.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is, you admit that half of the taunts were resisted. That in and of itself means that the warriors aggro was not being raised as it should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you and the Shaman start healing. Your heals were not resisted by the warriors they were cast upon. Therefor the entire amount of aggro they generated on the mob added up. Of course the mob will turn and attack you at this point, and not the warriors, becuase comparativly speaking, the warriors had next to no aggro built up due to resisted powers, and you and the shaman had full aggro due to no resisted casts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone makes a statement about a Troubador posting here, I have an alt who is a Templar, so this discussion is near and dear to my survival.</DIV>

[ren]

<DIV>He said "immune" not resisted.  Several +++'s are like this in that taunts, manadrains, mez, and some other spells won't even work on them.  They weren't resisted, they will never ever work.</DIV>

[Dortel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rensu wrote:<BR> <DIV>He said "immune" not resisted.  Several +++'s are like this in that taunts, manadrains, mez, and some other spells won't even work on them.  They weren't resisted, they will never ever work.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Exactly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and btw might wanna start complaining about resitances also, had a 6800 mental resistance on a level 50 and got feared by a blue 47 ^ lifestealer or something, the one that fears down in CT.  Feared him right through a wall to.  Talk about delaying a raid.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Dorteler on <span class=date_text>02-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 AM</span>

[Eileah]

<DIV>The situation that SOE doesn't seem to get is that because our heals are different our heals will KEEP agro on us once gotten where a cleric shammy reactive/ward will not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance, if a cleric get initial heal agro and the mob turns on the cleric, it is no longer hitting the MA and causing the reactive heal to heal the tank, so the cleric is no longer building agro with their heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A druid warder/fury on the other hand will keep on healing the MA no matter what, it is the nature of regens, if they get agro from a heal and the mob turns on them, the heal is still going on the tank and gaining more and more agro for the druid, making it harder and harder for anyone to get the agro off of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only fix I see for this is to only have heals cause agro on cast, not on subsequent heals afterwards, because the nature of the different types of heals makes the druid class more apt to build agro once they have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play all three types of healers, and in my experience they all get initial agro equally, but only the druid class keeps BUILDING agro to the point that it cant be taken back by the MA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2c in the hat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eileah</DIV> <DIV>Lunatic Fringe</DIV> <DIV>Toxx</DIV>